Hi Guys (and Gals?)

I am a new user of Templot, which I bought to help me plan a model of Singleton - ex LBSCR, West Sussex - 4mm, EM gauge.

Currently I am working on two options,

a) a straight plot of the 1:2500 OS map, which as you can imagine gives a rather long layout (20' + to get the interesting bit in,

and

b) a curved version (inspired by the late Chris Matthewman's "Striving" ) that would in theory fit in my 18' x 12' living room (occasionally)

In a nut shell, does any one have any comments on the "model of a railway" versus the "model railway" approach

Also some of the turnouts look very long - does anyone know what sort of geometry the LBSC would have used to lay out the track in the 1880s? (ie preferred crossing angles)

any hints on double slips?

best wishes

Richard Jones
Wirral

ps illustration of approach b) attached for any comments or suggestions - I can't add the illustration of approach a) as this is the OS map and would breach copyright!






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Richard_Jones wrote: Hi Guys (and Gals?)

I am a new user of Templot, which I bought to help me plan a model of Singleton - ex LBSCR, West Sussex - 4mm, EM gauge.

Currently I am working on two options,

a) a straight plot of the 1:2500 OS map, which as you can imagine gives a rather long layout (20' + to get the interesting bit in,

and

b) a curved version (inspired by the late Chris Matthewman's "Striving" ) that would in theory fit in my 18' x 12' living room (occasionally)

In a nut shell, does any one have any comments on the "model of a railway" versus the "model railway" approach

Also some of the turnouts look very long - does anyone know what sort of geometry the LBSC would have used to lay out the track in the 1880s? (ie preferred crossing angles)

any hints on double slips?

best wishes

Richard Jones
Wirral

ps illustration of approach b) attached for any comments or suggestions - I can't add the illustration of approach a) as this is the OS map and would breach copyright!





Bump.

No replies for Richard?

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Curved turnouts = long turnouts.
Curved Double Slips!!!= evener longer.
Don't get me started on outside slips!
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Richard

Singleton - on - the - Bend

You do not say the period you are to model - will you have short 4-wheel coaches or ordinary 8-wheel ones?

It is your railway and if the LBSCR made the mistake of not curving the line so a model will fit in your living room, then you put them right!

The things to watch are the minimum radii, especially on the crossovers, and the spacing between the tracks on the curve.

Do you know why the station had 4 platform faces? It does look an interesting plan.
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Borg-Rail wrote: Curved turnouts = long turnouts.
Curved Double Slips!!!= evener longer.
Don't get me started on outside slips!Agreed .

On the track plan I uploaded the other day,  a simple crossover between the up and down main on a 53" radius curve requires a 1:16 crossing on the turnout on the outer line with its crossover road being just over 43" radius.  I did try to get a larger inner radius by trying for even higher crossing numbers but Templot seemed to object.

If you do go for the curved version of the layout you will have to be prepared for these large number crossings and your diamonds and slips will have to be the switched versions to get reliable running.    Further on reliability,  you will have to use good track and wheel standards so that the wheels don't drop into the very long gaps in front of these long crossing noses.

Jim.



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John Lewis wrote: Richard

Singleton - on - the - Bend

You do not say the period you are to model - will you have short 4-wheel coaches or ordinary 8-wheel ones?

It is your railway and if the LBSCR made the mistake of not curving the line so a model will fit in your living room, then you put them right!

The things to watch are the minimum radii, especially on the crossovers, and the spacing between the tracks on the curve.

Do you know why the station had 4 platform faces? It does look an interesting plan.John,

Thank you for your comments

I am intending to model in the 1930's SR period for the rolling stock so that generally it will be bogie stock though lots of 4 wheel horse boxes (see later).

I will alter history slightly as the turntable was removed in the early '20's and assume that the line didn't loose its traffic that led to removal of passenger services in 1935.

The station was built with an eye to " lucrative race traffic" to Goodwood hence the very generous platform and bay facilities - in reality the station was very busy for 2-3 days and virtually deserted the rest of the year. Even then the Pullman race specials used Drayton & Chichester, and only the 3rd class excursions went to Singleton - my ideas for rolling stock will suggest that it worked out how the Brighton envisaged!

I'm still undecided on the straight/curved option and am trying both in Templot

regards

Richard

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Dear Borg-rail & Jim,

thanks for your observations - I am still undecided and am trying both in Templot, however if I can get something that can be set up at home, my inclination is to try and build as close to the prototype as possible, but even then those crossovers were coming out at 1:12.

I know this will display my ignorance, but how will I know if the prototype used an inside or an outside double slip?

All comments gratefully received

Richard

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Richard,
I know this will display my ignorance, but how will I know if the prototype used an inside or an outside double slip?You would have to try and get photographic evidence if you could.  Large scale OS maps do show trackwork details but I'm never too sure how accurate these might be in complex formations.

If you go for your curved version of the layout then it will be up to you.  The choice between inside and outside slip will be set by the basic criterion of whether you can get an inside slip road at an acceptable radius.  If not,  then its an outside slip.   Basically slips tend to be between 1:6 and 1:8.  If you go below 1:6 then you are getting in to outside slip territory.

I remember a friend who was involved in P & C design work in BR many years ago saying that trackwork should flow,  and the use of an outside slip in a complex formation can help that formation to flow much better than an inside slip road.

Jim.

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Hi Richard

Straight versus curved? First question, in practice how easy will it be to re-arrange your lounge to accomodate things, set things up, and restore things afterwards, and how long can you keep the layout set up? In other words, is the hassle going to be worth whatever you manage to get out of the layout when it is set up?

Second question, is your primary interest in building the thing or in running it once its built? And are you interested in exhibiting it? If you are interested in exhibiting it, and home running isn't the major aim, perhaps thinking in terms of just assembling bits of it at home for working on and testing purposes might be the way to go.

Third question, do you have anywhere else you could assemble it, e.g. loft or garage?

Think it boils down to what you really want, and can work out somewhere to fit it in. The curved version won't be a model of the station, rather "based on"; if you go for this I wouldn't hesitate to alter the track layout as well to get rid of any awkward things, such as those others have suggested. The straight version isn't an awful lot of point if you're never going to have anywhere where you can set it up (home or exhibition or other); on the other hand if there are options to set it up occasionally might be more satisfying. Only you know!

cheers
Nigel

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Jim Guthrie wrote:On the track plan I uploaded the other day, a simple crossover between the up and down main on a 53" radius curve requires a 1:16 crossing on the turnout on the outer line with its crossover road being just over 43" radius. I did try to get a larger inner radius by trying for even higher crossing numbers but Templot seemed to object. Hi Jim,

Templot will go to much flatter angles than 1:16. But it will object if the V-crossing angle is flatter than the switch heel angle. To change to a flatter crossing angle, first change to a longer switch. The limits are these:

A-switch up to 1:14

B-switch up to 1:18

C-switch up to 1:22

D-switch up to 1:27

E-switch up to 1:36

F-switch up to 1:46

If you use the F5 mouse action to change the turnout size (and you are not using a custom switch), Templot will change the switch size automatically.

To ease the radius in curved turnouts using these very flat crossing angles, you should also change to generic or curviform pattern V-crossings (generic only, if in a crossover). For regular V-crossings, the turnout radius won't ever exceed the switch radius, regardless of the crossing angle.

regards,

Martin.

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Go with what you think looks right.  A curved layout often looks more visually appealing than a straight one.  The long crossing angles do work but swing nose crossings make them much more relaible.  The only thing is to turn down the power of your point motor so tnhat it doesn't distort the crossing V when it swings if you are using a Tortoise.  I changed the operating wire to a thinner one as the pivoted V moves much more easily than a rail that is being bent. 

On a personal note I am very interested in your remarks about striving and will make sure that his widow is made aware that people have been inspired by it.  Chris'r last layout 'Striven'is now back on the road under new ownership and will be at the Wakefield show this year with some of Chris's old operating team helping to run it.

 

Jamie Guest

 

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Jamie92208 wrote: Go with what you think looks right.  A curved layout often looks more visually appealing than a straight one.  The long crossing angles do work but swing nose crossings make them much more relaible.  The only thing is to turn down the power of your point motor so tnhat it doesn't distort the crossing V when it swings if you are using a Tortoise.  I changed the operating wire to a thinner one as the pivoted V moves much more easily than a rail that is being bent. 

On a personal note I am very interested in your remarks about striving and will make sure that his widow is made aware that people have been inspired by it.  Chris'r last layout 'Striven'is now back on the road under new ownership and will be at the Wakefield show this year with some of Chris's old operating team helping to run it.

 

Jamie Guest

 
Thanks for your comments - as I previously mentioned I am re-appraising what I might be able to set up at home so that I would not be restricted to exhibition running which would have been dictated by a layout based rigorously on the OS map. Since I drafted the curved layout idea we have had an old wood/plastic conservatory replaced with a proper room that opens off the back of the living room and connects to the dinning room, so I have more flexibility over "available" space.

I agree with your comment about curved layouts being more interesting - some of the photos of Singleton in the Middleton Press books give more of an impression of a curve than the OS map shows (apparently it was 52 chns radius at the Northern end of the station)

I saw "Striving" at Expo EM North several years ago and have a photo of my friend Paul Nelson at the controls - Paul was (I believe) originally a member of Wakefield Club before he moved across the Pennines to Wirral - I usually try to encourage him to start model building again when our paths cross.

best wishes

Richard

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Here's another attempt at a curved version given the space now available following building work......





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Richard,
I think it looks a lot better - but it rather appears from the image that at the Lavant end you would be looking at it through a rather narrow opening. For me, this was the more interesting end of the station and a good view of it would be important. Also, where do you envisage the normal viewing position? From the outside of the curve, the station was largely hidden by tall trees as I recall, (though they would have perhaps been a lot less tall in LBSC days!)whereas from the inside of the curve you would be looking down from the top of West Dean hill...

Best Regards,

Howard.
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Hi Howard,

many thanks for your comments - I would envisage the normal viewing point would be opposite the station building, looking up the approach road, however the aim of this scheme was to have something that (could) go to exhibitions, but could also be set up at home (if it never achieves the former!) - hence the floor "footprint". At the Lavant end, the width is dictated by the opening into the new room where the conservatory used to be (4' window removed) and at the "Cocking" end by the 2' 6" door way into the hall - the scenic breaks being an overbridge (representing "Bulldog bridge")* at that end, and the tunnel mouth at the Lavant end.

Any other suggestions, hints etc gratefully received. 

best wishes

Richard

* correction 27/06/2019 - my mistake - "Bulldog Bridge" is between Singleton and Cocking Tunnels - the overbridge for the scenic break is for a farm track to Hat Hill, and I am told is called "leg of Mutton"

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I think it would make a good exhibition layout (providing that you only operate the Race Days TT!)

I know that your original query related to LBSC point geometry - are you a member of SEMG? There is a diagram published in the Photos section at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SEmG/photos/album/1281883701/pic/1086912143/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

but you need to be a member to be able to view it. It might be of limited use as it relates to Standard Leads but may provide a starting point (no pun!)

Best Regards,

Howard.
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Hi Howard,

No I'm not a member of SEMG, but I often look at the photo pages and pull off the latest edition of "Coupe News" which is a mine of infomation on Pullmans (for those race specials, though in reality the Pullman race specials ran to Drayton rather than Singleton...)

I am in the Brighton Circle E group, and Mike Waldron (EB Models) has recently started a thread on that forum regarding LBSC track geometry and has mentioned Templot templates, so I am hoping he may share these in this forum.

best wishes

Richard

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Richard:

there's probably value in contacting John Ritter (ex-pat in Australia) on the Brighton Circle egroup.

Mike Waldron
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Richard_Jones wrote:
Hi Howard,

No I'm not a member of SEMG, but I often look at the photo pages and pull off the latest edition of "Coupe News" which is a mine of infomation on Pullmans (for those race specials, though in reality the Pullman race specials ran to Drayton rather than Singleton...)

I am in the Brighton Circle E group, and Mike Waldron (EB Models) has recently started a thread on that forum regarding LBSC track geometry and has mentioned Templot templates, so I am hoping he may share these in this forum.

best wishes

Richard


Hi Richard:

there is some information on the Brighton Circle egroup section of the Website - but I can recommend John Ritter's expertise.

he has done some research and seems fairly clued up on Brighton track.
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if you want his address contact me on mike@mjwsjw.co.uk
off group.

Mike
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Hi Mike,

Thanks for the suggestion - I have recently been in touch with John, who kindly provided a drawing for a crane match truck.

Coincidentally, its rather a small world, as it turn out that when John was visiting another ex-pat who had retired back to the UK (Don Chapman, sadly no longer with us) I ended up taking both John and Don to EXPO EM North at Slaithwaite, so it was nice to re-establish contact.

Don had a model of Bangor (LNWR) in his loft and would run the "Irish Mail" with 14 coaches and on a couple of occassions managed to "strip" the gearbox on the loco!

I understand that the station section of the layout has gone to the Brookside Garden Centre.

best wishes

Richard
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Hi Guys & Gals,

I had another "outline" go at Singleton, this time on a continuous curve, rather than the final bit straight (which is prototypical) - any comments on which looks better?

many thanks

Richard

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Hi Richard,

Looks good - have you put this in the image gallery? I can't seem to be able to load a larger version to see the detail.

Best wishes,

Howard.
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Hi Guys & Gals,

I had another "outline" go at Singleton, this time on a continuous curve, rather than the final bit straight (which is prototypical) - any comments on which looks better?

many thanks

Richard

Hi Richard

This looks to be a closer rendition of the prototype, going by your earlier post with the map. I prefer layouts on curves rather straights with a semi circle at each end, they always appear to be longer to my eye.

Cheers Phil

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Hi Howard,

I think I have put it in the image gallery....

If it's not there please let me know, and I'll try to oblige (I may need some instruction!)

sorry I'm a neo-luddite

best wishes

Richard

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Borg-Rail wrote: Curved turnouts = long turnouts.
Curved Double Slips!!!= evener longer.
Don't get me started on outside slips!Hi there,

If you see my latest effort, I'm working on a ruling 15' radius with 1:8 crossings - do you think this practical in EM?

many thanks

Richard

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Hi Richard,

15' almost counts as straight in 4mm terms! If in doubt, you could build an example off the template and try it out before you commit to building the whole plan, but I would have thought that you would get away with it even in EM though the middle of the double slip will be a bit crowded due to the overscale flangeways. I picked up your image in the gallery by the way, and I think you have done a nicely subtle job of compressing and curving the layout.

Just in terms of how to upload and link images, in this topic,

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=1172&forum_id=6

you will find Martin's response to my query on the same issue - hope it helps.

Best Wishes,

Howard.
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Ladies & Gentlemen,

Please find attached the BOX file for my interpretation of Singleton - I haven't yet properly finished the double slip (just a crossing at the moment), the tandem turnout or any of the catch points, but any views on how it looks/suggestions for alteration would be gratefully recieved

many thanks

Richard

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SHAPE file to go with BOX file for Singleton

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Hi Richard,

Thanks for uploading your files.

For the background picture shape, you need to send a third message, and add the BMP image file for the picture shape. It may take a few minutes to upload after you click Send. There is a size limit of 5.7MB.

regards,

Martin.

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.bmp file ..... finally after compression!

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Richard_Jones wrote: .bmp file ..... finally after compression!Hi Richard,

Thanks for uploading it.

Unfortunately, Templot can't handle RLE-compressed BMP files (run-length encoding).

I've attached it again below in PNG format. (Right-click on the link and click Save Image As..)

Templot 091c can't load PNG directly (TDV can), so anyone wanting to try it will need to open it in a graphics editor such as Irfanview or Windows Paint, and then save it again in BMP format for Templot.

Then to get it into the picture shape on your track plan, select the picture shape in the list and then click the modify shape: > picture content: > reload... button.

regards,

Martin.

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Hi Martin,

Thanks for that, I afraid I'm more than a bit of a neo-luddite - the original file (in colour) was 50 Mb, so I was desperately trying to get the file size down......

cheers

Richard

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Ladies & Gentlemen,

To echo the message under "printing query",

here's a photo showing some full size (4mm scale) laid out (in situ) on the floor to get an idea of how it will all work (on high days and holidays only) - really its an exhibition layout, if it's ever good enough!



best wishes

Richard

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Richard

It's been out for a while, but I've only just got round to reading my copy, but have you seen the latest edition of Southern Way? It has a 20-page article on Singleton

Looking good!

regards

Paul
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Hi Paul,

Yes, its a good article - as I've been researching Singleton for some while I had seen much of the material before, the only really useful thing (to me) was the view of the South Signal Box.

I've been in touch with the editor of Southern Way, so there may well be a follow up article - perhaps someone will come up with a photo of the turntable.

I hoping that I may make some progress over Christmas as I've booked leave through to the new year - perhaps I'll tackle the double slip and three way - if I can build those I know I can manage the rst of the track work.

best wishes

Richard


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Yes, that was the first decent pic I have seen of the South Box. Regarding the turntable, do you know John Minnis? If the picture exists, John has it!

If you have doubts about the double slip or three way, that would be a good reason for practising on something else first. (lesson from hard experience of my first P4 layout!)

Good luck! And look forward to some pics of the work in progress!

Best Wishes,

Howard
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Hi Howard,

I've built plenty of turnouts in the past, just not done any double slips and only one three way - its a (little) bit easier for me in EM, though I've built in P4 in the (very distant) past, but went down the EM route when the great schism occurred, and a certain gentlemen would not supply wheels if you were a member of the rival society!

I'm a member of the Brighton Circle, so I can probably contact John Minnis via that route.

best wishes

Richard

ps there is a photo of some of my interlaced turnouts in the image gallery (for my KESR layout that still isn't finished!)
  

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Hi Richard,

Let me know if you need help getting hold of John, but you should be able to get him via the Circle.

Sorry you fell from the True Path - I remember those days and the endless waiting for orders to come and half the things "TF" when they did come. But things are better these days if you fancy coming back to P4!!!

Pointwork looks good - good luck with the slip!

Best Wishes,

Howard.
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Hi  All,

I've just uploaded a few photos of some small scale card models I've made to work out baseboard levels and construction, on the basis that cardboard is a lot cheaper than plywood!

Now to get on with real thing!

best wishes

Richard



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