Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 1025Templot docs
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posted: 28 Jan 2010 09:13

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

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Raymond wrote:
... It would be best to view it with centre lines disabled as I have used single rails to mark out limits and buildings. 

That's a nice idea - how do you set single rails?

Howard.

posted: 28 Jan 2010 09:58

from:

Raymond
 
Bexhill-on-sea - United Kingdom

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For instance:  The platform edge was done by copying the adjacent track, then 'no timbering' followed by omitting one rail then using F7 to move it about or F8 to slew it.  It is important the the snap function is switched off.  F4 and F6 will do the rest.  Don't bother with it until your track is pretty much as you want it so that you do not need the centre lines.

Regards

Raymond

posted: 28 Jan 2010 10:24

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

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Raymond wrote:
...followed by omitting one rail

that's the bit I don't see! How do you omit one rail?

Howard.

posted: 28 Jan 2010 10:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Howard wrote:
that's the bit I don't see! How do you omit one rail?
Hi Howard,

In 091c: do > omit rails and joint marks... menu item (CTRL-O).

In 074b: geometry > rails > menu options (untick each rail as required).

regards,

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2010 11:19

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Howard wrote:
that's the bit I don't see! How do you omit one rail?
Hi Howard,

In 091c: do > omit rails and joint marks... menu item (CTRL-O).

In 074b: geometry > rails > menu options (untick each rail as required).

regards,

Martin.


Thanks Martin.

I've been using just centre lines so far, for example to show the start of the cutting. I like the idea for platforms (especially if the track curves). Is it possible to colour these lines differently to "real" track?

Howard.

posted: 28 Jan 2010 13:56

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Here we go again. Every day brings a string of emails from confused and bewildered Templot users. Is this going to continue for ever?  Last week a contributor commented that there can be no good software if it is not accompanied by equally good  manuals that are equally as good. I heartily concur.

I have all but given up on Templot, because I just do not know what to do. Yet I must be one of the earliest purchasers of the programme. Somebody mentioned this morning 'turning the snapping on and off'. Mine seems to be off, but I could not turn it on if I wanted to, simply because I not not how and moreover, I know not where to look for  instructions.

We have an apparent stalemate - for years I have been saying we really need a fully indexed 'How to...' booklet. I recall I even offered to print and publish it.  Martin counters this suggestion with two oft repeated comments:

1.  "You cannot have enhancements if I am spendimg time engaged on other things".
Possibly true, but what good are enhancements if you cannot get to grips with the basic programme? Now Martin is a helpful chap and produces 'one off solutions'  to help the confused. Surely this in itself is quite time consuming. And would not  proper documentation obviate the majority of the problems before the occur?

2. "I began writing this programme more than 20 years ago and it was intended for my own use".
Yes - and we are all grateful that you share it with us. But it is now no less a commercial offering than say CorelDraw, (which comes with a 450 page User Guide and two other helpful publications). If Corel can do this, why not Templot? OK. CorelDraw is three time the cost of Templot, but that is a commercial decision made by Martin and really is irrelevant to the argument.

Videos go some way, but they take up screen space and really are no compensation for the lack of a User Guide alongside your keyboard.  So I ask again, "Just how much longer is this unsatisfactory state of affairs going to continue?


Regards

Brian Lewis
Martin Wynne wrote:
Howard wrote:
that's the bit I don't see! How do you omit one rail?
Hi Howard,

In 091c: do > omit rails and joint marks... menu item (CTRL-O).

In 074b: geometry > rails > menu options (untick each rail as required).

regards,

Martin.


posted: 28 Jan 2010 14:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
CorelDraw, (which comes with a 450 page User Guide and two other helpful publications). If Corel can do this, why not Templot?
Hi Brian,

CorelDraw = multi-national corporation.

Templot = one man in a shed.

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2010 14:35

from:

Alan McMillan
 
Edinburgh - United Kingdom

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I think comparing Martin's one-man-band operation with that of a multimillion dollar corporation like Corel is hardly fair. Corel has the time and the personnel to create a 450 page user guide, Martin does not.

What Martin has created is an amazing piece of software and I would much rather it existed in the public domain without a comprehensive manual than it be in the position of never having being made available because there weren't full instructions.

I had Templot for four years before I decided to sit down and really LEARN it. Playing with the menus got me familiar with the software's geography and mucking about with templates got me familiar enough with its operation that there is now not much I can't do with it. If I find something I'm not familiar with, I search the menus until I find it or I refer to this forum or the main Templot website - resources that are as much of a manual as I think this software needs. Learn by doing rather than reading; you'll learn more and you'll learn it faster than if you sit down with the manual. Even if an indexed manual existed, you would still have to sit down and work at familiarising yourself with the programme's functions.

As an aside I have Corel Draw 10 on my PC and I can make it do what I need it to do - the manual is still in the box because I can't be bothered to read it.

Alan McMillan

posted: 28 Jan 2010 14:42

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Is that It then?  Whatever you are, it was a serious question and courtesy suggests a measured, authoritative answer should have been forthcoming.

Regards

Brian Lewis



Martin Wynne wrote:
Brian Lewis wrote:
CorelDraw, (which comes with a 450 page User Guide and two other helpful publications). If Corel can do this, why not Templot?
Hi Brian,

CorelDraw = multi-national corporation.

Templot = one man in a shed.

Martin.


posted: 28 Jan 2010 14:52

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
Is that It then? Whatever you are, it was a serious question and courtesy suggests a measured, authoritative answer should have been forthcoming.
Hi Brian,

Indeed it does and I apologise. However, I have answered essentially the same question from you several times already in recent years.

Also this morning I have had a domestic medical emergency to deal with and I just don't have time to write any more than that. Sorry.

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2010 14:57

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Hornby/Bachmann multimillion dollar corporation.

Masterclass/Dave Bradwell, etc. one man in a shed.

Who produces better kits?

Size has nothing to do with it Alan, as I am sure you know.  (But unlike Martin,  both Hornby and Bachmann do respond to suggestions and criticisms. You want proof?  Look at the Bachmann 4CEP just introduced. The pick-up skates were going to be moulded on until I pointed out that they would not line up when folk converted to EM/P4. The result was that the drawings were amended and now they are a separate item).

Regards

Brian Lewis



Alan McMillan wrote:
I think comparing Martin's one-man-band operation with that of a multimillion dollar corporation like Corel is hardly fair. Corel has the time and the personnel to create a 450 page user guide, Martin does not.

What Martin has created is an amazing piece of software and I would much rather it existed in the public domain without a comprehensive manual than it be in the position of never having being made available because there weren't full instructions.

I had Templot for four years before I decided to sit down and really LEARN it. Playing with the menus got me familiar with the software's geography and mucking about with templates got me familiar enough with its operation that there is now not much I can't do with it. If I find something I'm not familiar with, I search the menus until I find it or I refer to this forum or the main Templot website - resources that are as much of a manual as I think this software needs. Learn by doing rather than reading; you'll learn more and you'll learn it faster than if you sit down with the manual. Even if an indexed manual existed, you would still have to sit down and work at familiarising yourself with the programme's functions.

As an aside I have Corel Draw 10 on my PC and I can make it do what I need it to do - the manual is still in the box because I can't be bothered to read it.

Alan McMillan


posted: posted: 28 Jan 2010 15:08

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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I am sorry to hear that Martin. I hope everything goes well.

But regarding help files, I am not unsympathetic.  With Timber Tracks Buildings, I am just finishing the 7mm Station Building in time for the Bristol O Gauge Show on Sunday and I know that the instructions take 2-3 times as long to write as drawing the building in the first place.  But it is an essential part of the kit and without this, and the 40+ accompanying photographs, I would not expect anyone to be able to build it properly.

Reagrds - and keep well,

Brian Lewis



Martin Wynne wrote:
Brian Lewis wrote:
Is that It then? Whatever you are, it was a serious question and courtesy suggests a measured, authoritative answer should have been forthcoming.
Hi Brian,

Indeed it does and I apologise. However, I have answered essentially the same question from you several times already in recent years.

Also this morning I have had a domestic medical emergency to deal with and I just don't have time to write any more than that. Sorry.

Martin.


28 Jan 2010 15:08

from:

Alan McMillan
 
Edinburgh - United Kingdom

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But in this context size does matter Brian. Your own Bachmann analogy only applies because they have the money and the people to do the modifications you mentioned. Templot is subject to the limitations of one man doing his best. Given the number and variety of suggestions and questions put to Martin every week, I feel he does a very good job - I know I wouldn't have his patience. Bachmann will have an entire department with which to field the public's queries - you're really not comparing like with like.

Regards

 

Alan McMillan

posted: 28 Jan 2010 15:33

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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I want to point out that the Templot web site says this, and always has done:

Technical support for users is available via Templot Club forum. This Templot web site is intended to become the main source of information, with example track plans and step-by-step click-guide tutorials and screen videos .

Ready-printed documentation is not available because Templot is being frequently upgraded.

You can of course print any of the web site material if you prefer to work from a printed text.

If someone then goes ahead and buys Templot, it is not reasonable to complain afterwards that there is no printed documentation. If that is an important consideration, you shouldn't buy Templot.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2010 18:42

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Raymond

I'm not going to get drawn into the User Guide argument!  When I opened your box file, my first reaction was "Wow!".  The layout certainly looks "right".  I notice it has "GWR" in the project title, but only 36" flares...  Have fun!

What I really liked though was the simple idea of using a rail to mark out buildings etc.  I'll be using that idea myself - it's brilliant!

And all without the aid of a User Guide.  Whoops - drat :D

As an aside, I was looking through back issues of Scalefour News, and sometime around 2004 (I think) there was an advert for Templot. "New - now supports irregular diamonds" or words to that effect.  Personally, I'd much rather have those than a 450 page instruction book :)

Cheers


posted: 28 Jan 2010 19:30

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
But it is now no less a commercial offering than say CorelDraw, (which comes with a 450 page User Guide and two other helpful publications). If Corel can do this, why not Templot? OK. CorelDraw is three time the cost of Templot, but that is a commercial decision made by Martin and really is irrelevant to the argument.


Not if you buy the Home and Student edition for £60 you don't.

So pay your £250 and get a user guide, pay your £60 and don't get a user guide.

Just like Templot I suppose?

Alan

posted: 28 Jan 2010 22:49

from:

allanferguson
 
Fife - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
Here we go again. Every day brings a string of emails from confused and bewildered Templot users. Is this going to continue for ever?  Last week a contributor commented that there can be no good software if it is not accompanied by equally good  manuals that are equally as good. I heartily concur.

I have all but given up on Templot, because I just do not know what to do. Yet I must be one of the earliest purchasers of the programme. Somebody mentioned this morning 'turning the snapping on and off'. Mine seems to be off, but I could not turn it on if I wanted to, simply because I not not how and moreover, I know not where to look for  instructions.

Templot  is  a  tool  that  Martin  created  for  his  own  use,  and  which  he  has  kindly  made  available  at  a  nominal  charge  for  all  of  us.  It  is  not,  as  I  see  it,  a  commercial  program;  so  the  same  sorts  of  criteria  do  not  apply.

When  I  first  bought  Templot  I  spent  at  least  a  year  working  out  how  to  use  it.  I  learnt  the  same  way  I've  learnt  every  other  computer  program,  by  trying  things  to  see  what  happened.  It  does,  I  confess,  irritate  me  when  people  ask  Martin  questions  which  they  should  be  able  to  answer  in  that  way.:?

I  wouldn't  expect  Brian  Lewis  to  show  me  step  by  step  how  to  use  a  soldering  iron  bought  from  him  (though  I  acknowledge  that  he  provides  some  excellent  data  sheets)!:thumb:

Regards

Allan  Ferguson


posted: 28 Jan 2010 23:14

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Raymond,

Apologies for the way your topic has been totally hijacked.

I have started a fresh topic for you, and moved the relevant posts to it:

 topic 1027

Discussion can continue there in peace. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2010 23:23

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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But it is a commercial product Allan. The problem is that Martin chooses to  ignore that fact, in the same way as he ignores one of the basic tenets of the Distance Selling Regulations. (But in fairness, a fair proportions of small model railway traders do the same, so he is not alone).

In an earlier message Martin used the Templot Forum as  a shield to hide the lack of help documentation, conveniently forgetting that most of us purchased Templot years before the Forum was ever thought of.

All this huffing and puffing - and support from a few sycophants cannot disguise the fact that it is a good piece of software, harpooned by the lack of documentation - a piece of carbon, waiting to be transformed into a diamond.

Reagrds

Brian Lewis.


allanferguson wrote:
It  is  not,  as  I  see  it,  a  commercial  program;  so  the  same  sorts  of  criteria  do  not  apply.



posted: 28 Jan 2010 23:34

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
In an earlier message Martin used the Templot Forum as  a shield to hide the lack of help documentation, conveniently forgetting that most of us purchased Templot years before the Forum was ever thought of.
Hi Brian,

The first paid-for copies of Templot left here in the Autumn of 1999. At that time the Templot web site already contained significant help information. The Templot email group started on Yahoo less than a year later on 1st September 2000. This Templot Club web forum is the successor to that, and I simply updated the note on the web site accordingly.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Jan 2010 07:30

from:

Raymond
 
Bexhill-on-sea - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Raymond,

Apologies for the way your topic has been totally hijacked.

I have started a fresh topic for you, and moved the relevant posts to it:

 topic 1027

Discussion can continue there in peace. :)

regards,

Martin.
Thank you Martin.

Regards

Raymond

posted: 29 Jan 2010 09:36

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
But regarding help files, I am not unsympathetic.  With Timber Tracks Buildings, I am just finishing the 7mm Station Building in time for the Bristol O Gauge Show on Sunday and I know that the instructions take 2-3 times as long to write as drawing the building in the first place.  But it is an essential part of the kit and without this, and the 40+ accompanying photographs, I would not expect anyone to be able to build it properly.

With respect, Brian,  the work involved in writing the instructions for a kit pall into insignificance with the work required for a help file/manual for a complex piece of software. 

In a way,  I was in the same situation as Martin some years ago. I had written software to use in a niche area of my line of business and I had requests to make it available to other users as a commercial piece of software.  I turned the requests down because the cost of the time and effort required to make the software idiot proof, and to write a full help file and manual would have put the cost of the software way above what people would have been prepared to pay. I did actually make a start on writing the help file/manual and after a few weeks of doing that I came to the conclusion that there were better things to do with my life and my business. :)

And you should now have to make two technically different versions of the help file since the versions on the latest Windows platforms are incompatible with the versions on earlier platforms.

And I bet you that if a full help file or manual ever did appear for Templot by whatever means,  that the level of queries on this forum would not lessen to any great extent. :)

Jim.

posted: 29 Jan 2010 10:51

from:

kenbec
 
Australia

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Martin Wynne wrote:
I want to point out that the Templot web site says this, and always has done:

Technical support for users is available via Templot Club forum. This Templot web site is intended to become the main source of information, with example track plans and step-by-step click-guide tutorials and screen videos .

Ready-printed documentation is not available because Templot is being frequently upgraded.

You can of course print any of the web site material if you prefer to work from a printed text.

If someone then goes ahead and buys Templot, it is not reasonable to complain afterwards that there is no printed documentation. If that is an important consideration, you shouldn't buy Templot.

regards,

Martin.
An open comment.


I suppose since the original topic has been moved this one can be considered to be no longer hijacked.


Having had my say earlier under the Pug version 091c topic I had no intention to become involved until I saw this message.


The wording shown does in fact appear on the Templot web site, however it is followed by the sentence “Click here to see the Templot Companion pages, which are being frequently updated and extended”.
The Templot Companion has at the end of every section a line stating, “more notes here soon”. I suggest that this together with the wording above would lead any reasonable person to the expectation that the Templot Companion (i.e. the Templot manual) is regularly updated. This does not appear to be so.


Also the wording, “Ready-printed documentation is not available because Templot is being frequently upgraded“, is somewhat doubtful since the last release as far as I am aware is 091c released on 7th of February 2008 and is still regarded as being a Beta version.


This leads me to the conclusion that the statement, “If someone then goes ahead and buys Templot, it is not reasonable to complain afterwards that there is no printed documentation. If that is an important consideration, you shouldn't buy Templot”, is uncalled for.


There does appear to be a number of satisfied people, who knows how many have just given up? One of the problems is that peoples minds work differently. I have grandchildren who have never even looked at a manual in their lives and they seem to get along without any problems. I am different and like to see before me a set of instructions that I can follow.
I couldn't put it better than Brian Lewis said, “Videos go some way, but they take up screen space and really are no compensation for the lack of a User Guide alongside your keyboard”.


Answering questions on this forum must take a lot of time and a more useful approach would have to be a means of reducing them to a minimum. I can understand Martin's feeling that too much is expected of him, what I can't understand is why he does nothing about it. I can only conclude that is the way he wants it. After all it is his program.


I have no doubt there are users happy to to have the program in any form but I did find it astonishing that two of the happy users took one and four years respectively to learn how to use the program, this appears to be a bit over the odds to me.


@ Martin Wynne I am very sorry to hear there has been a medical emergency in your home and I hope all is now going well.
I have not addressed this note to you because I wished to address all of those who have commented on this topic. I agree that it is ludicrous to compare you with major companies who have many employees and incidentally put out some pretty awful documentation anyway. However one thing they do very well and that is to distance themselves from their users in their forums, a practice which I find totally unprincipled. So what is the solution? As the sole developer of this impressive program only you can say. However I can say your documentation is not great mate.


Regards to all,


ken




posted: 29 Jan 2010 11:07

from:

kenbec
 
Australia

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Jim Guthrie wrote:
Brian Lewis wrote:
But regarding help files, I am not unsympathetic.  With Timber Tracks Buildings, I am just finishing the 7mm Station Building in time for the Bristol O Gauge Show on Sunday and I know that the instructions take 2-3 times as long to write as drawing the building in the first place.  But it is an essential part of the kit and without this, and the 40+ accompanying photographs, I would not expect anyone to be able to build it properly.

With respect, Brian,  the work involved in writing the instructions for a kit pall into insignificance with the work required for a help file/manual for a complex piece of software. 



And you should now have to make two technically different versions of the help file since the versions on the latest Windows platforms are incompatible with the versions on earlier platforms.

And I bet you that if a full help file or manual ever did appear for Templot by whatever means,  that the level of queries on this forum would not lessen to any great extent. :)

Jim.
Again with respect Jim,

"With respect, Brian,  the work involved in writing the instructions for a kit pall into insignificance with the work required for a help file/manual for a complex piece of software".
This is not an argument for not  producing a manual, the more complex the software the harder it is to learn intuitively. 

"And you should now have to make two technically different versions of the help file since the versions on the latest Windows platforms are incompatible with the versions on earlier platforms".
I'm not sure what you mean here, are you referring to Win7? In which case this is not so. I am using Win7 with no technical difficulties beyond my own incompetence.:?

"And I bet you that if a full help file or manual ever did appear for Templot by whatever means,  that the level of queries on this forum would not lessen to any great extent".
This is of course pure conjecture and it looks like we will never know".:D

regards,

ken


posted: 29 Jan 2010 11:36

from:

Alan McMillan
 
Edinburgh - United Kingdom

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Kenneth Beckett wrote:


I have no doubt there are users happy to to have the program in any form but I did find it astonishing that two of the happy users took one and four years respectively to learn how to use the program, this appears to be a bit over the odds to me.





Hi Ken

Maybe I should clarify. I said it took me four years to sit down and learn Templot; meaning that, because I didn't have a layout project on the cards, I just didn't take the time to do anything more than dabble with it. Once I did have a project that needed Templot, I then set out to really get to grips with it. That took about a fortnight.

Regards

Alan McMillan
Last edited on 29 Jan 2010 11:36 by Alan McMillan
posted: 29 Jan 2010 11:37

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Kenneth Beckett wrote:
However I can say your documentation is not great mate.
Hi Ken,

Yes, I'm well aware of that. It is however, the best I can manage.

I have started improved systems from time to time -- the most recent is the embryo A-Z Index at:

 http://www.templot.com/forum_index/

But that again has not moved for months because such work is simply too time-consuming.

My priority is to complete the missing parts of the program -- irregular diamonds, gaunt turnouts, split deflection switches, flat-bottom foot lines, pdf output, raster output, the sketchbook feature, saving settings ...

and only then to write a proper set of docs. Until then it is wasted effort because so much will need repeated revision.

As to time scales, a release every 2 years is frequent upgrading. I started this project over 30 years ago in 1979. The first public release was version 0.39 and we have now reached version 0.91 .

I would also add that the price of Templot has remained unchanged for 10 years, and every single upgrade has been free to existing users, even if you purchased Templot 10 years ago.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Jan 2010 13:17

from:

Raymond
 
Bexhill-on-sea - United Kingdom

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Jim Guthrie wrote:
Brian Lewis wrote:
With respect, Brian,  the work involved in writing the instructions for a kit pall into insignificance with the work required for a help file/manual for a complex piece of software. 

In a way,  I was in the same situation as Martin some years ago. I had written software to use in a niche area of my line of business and I had requests to make it available to other users as a commercial piece of software.  I turned the requests down because the cost of the time and effort required to make the software idiot proof, and to write a full help file and manual would have put the cost of the software way above what people would have been prepared to pay. I did actually make a start on writing the help file/manual and after a few weeks of doing that I came to the conclusion that there were better things to do with my life and my business. :)

And you should now have to make two technically different versions of the help file since the versions on the latest Windows platforms are incompatible with the versions on earlier platforms.

And I bet you that if a full help file or manual ever did appear for Templot by whatever means,  that the level of queries on this forum would not lessen to any great extent. :)

Jim.
I have had similar problems with user manuals.  We had to write one for our own software, or rather I did.  Waste of time because no-one read it and I was tempted to print it with "RTFM" emblazoned across the front or, even better, on the opening screen.

Nevertheless, I think Martin is far too accommodating to those who cannot even be bothered to go through the tutorials.  In my view, they are far superior to any manual.

Regards

Raymond

posted: 29 Jan 2010 13:24

from:

Raymond
 
Bexhill-on-sea - United Kingdom

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Alan McMillan wrote:


Hi Ken

Maybe I should clarify. I said it took me four years to sit down and learn Templot; meaning that, because I didn't have a layout project on the cards, I just didn't take the time to do anything more than dabble with it. Once I did have a project that needed Templot, I then set out to really get to grips with it. That took about a fortnight.

Regards

Alan McMillan
That gels well with my experience, once I had a project to get to grips with it took no more than two weeks to crack it.  It took far longer to crack Expression Web3 to re-write my website and for that I had two manuals (which I had to buy separately) as well!

Regards

Raymond

posted: 29 Jan 2010 13:58

from:

Alan McMillan
 
Edinburgh - United Kingdom

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Raymond wrote:

Nevertheless, I think Martin is far too accommodating to those who cannot even be bothered to go through the tutorials.  In my view, they are far superior to any manual.



I couldn't agree more Raymond, sometimes I think some would rather have someone else do their learning for them.

Regards

Alan McMillan

posted: 29 Jan 2010 18:43

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Now this is on a new thread, I'll wade in!

When I bought Templot in April 2001 (blimey!), I dived straight in and got absolutely nowhere.  So I worked through the tutorials several times.  They were more than sufficient to give me a good grounding in the way Templot works, which is why I keep on suggesting that people should do this.  At other times I just bumbled through the menus and saw what happened when I click things.  I've rarely needed to go back to the website to work out how to do things although sometimes I will to remind myself about something.

Now, the bit that seems to be missing here is that as far as I can see, Brian has never actually said how far he's got before getting stuck.  Are we talking about the basic peg/notch functions or changing the default template to an S7 B8, or something more complex.  Brian - if you can ask (on a new thread!) about any specific problems, even if it's just how to get started, then we (the Templot users) will do our best to help, as I'm sure Martin will.

I do have some sympathy with Brian - I've recently started using Sketchup which is an excellent program for the money (free!) but I just could not get on with it and the online guides were more baffling than helpful.  It took a 10 minute session with the boss to show me the basic principles and I was away.  Maybe Brian needs something similar with Templot from someone.

Templot really is a great program, and once you've got the basics understood, the world is your oyster.  Just spend the time to go through the tutorials - and make sure the version you have installed matches the version in the tutorials.

I did try to make a Jing video in an answer to someone else's question, but that failed dismally because I use keyboard shortcuts so much that I don't actually know where things are in the menus.  It's a bit difficult to understand when things just appear all by themselves!

Yes, it would be great to have a comprehensive, up to date user guide, but give me the program and a community forum and that'll do me!

Cheers

posted: 29 Jan 2010 19:45

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Grateful for that Paul, but it is not sympathy I want. What I do want is no more and no less than I expect when I purchase software, i.e. adequate user guides. .  It would be interesting to know just how many folk have purchased Templot, have failed to get to grips with it and resultantly now never use it.

Track layout software can do so much - it brings reality to so many square feet of plywood. Most folk really have little idea of the space realistic curves, run round loops, crossovers, etc. occupy. I spent many years championing Templot. Now I feel let down - it is just not something I feel I can now recommend  to anyone.

Be sure I will continue to bring this matter to the forum at intervals. And you can be just as sure that the usual crowd of simpering acolytes will crawl out of the woodwork, singing Martin's praises...

And whilst that happens, what chance is there of anything happening


Paul Boyd wrote
I do have some sympathy with Brian - I've recently started using Sketchup which is an excellent program for the money (free!) but I just could not get on with it and the online guides were more baffling than helpful.  It took a 10 minute session with the boss to show me the basic principles and I was away.  Maybe Brian needs something similar with Templot from someone.


posted: 29 Jan 2010 20:43

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
Be sure I will continue to bring this matter to the forum at intervals. And you can be just as sure that the usual crowd of simpering acolytes will crawl out of the woodwork
Brian,

It's not acceptable to insult your fellow forum members in this way. I have had several messages of complaint about it.

If you are not happy with Templot, please confine your name-calling to the person who supplied it -- me. No-one else is responsible for its failings.

Martin.

posted: 29 Jan 2010 20:51

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Oh!  I have seen nothing on the forum.  Were the folk not brave enough to  air their views openly?

I see I should have added, 'spineless' to the 'simpering acolytes'.....:D

Stay well Martin.

Regards

Brian Lewis.

Martin Wynne wrote:
Brian Lewis wrote:
Be sure I will continue to bring this matter to the forum at intervals. And you can be just as sure that the usual crowd of simpering acolytes will crawl out of the woodwork
Brian,

It's not acceptable to insult your fellow forum members in this way. I have had several messages of complaint about it.

If you are not happy with Templot, please confine your name-calling to the person who supplied it -- me. No-one else is responsible for its failings.

Martin.


posted: 29 Jan 2010 21:01

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
Oh!  I have seen nothing on the forum. Were the folk not brave enough to air their views openly?
Brian,

I asked them not to. This is a software support forum, not a public slanging match.

Martin.

posted: 29 Jan 2010 21:23

from:

Peter_Hirons
 
Ireland

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Oh dear! This is getting exceedingly tiresome!  I've kept out of this up to now as it is really nothing to do with me, but I feel some sympathy with both sides of the "discussion". 

Firstly I must say I have great respect for both parties - Martin for producing a unique piece of software, and Brian for building a successful business in an area where many have failed. I am a satisfied customer of both.

My day job is (and has been for the last 30 years) as a Technical Author, writing mostly computer software documentation and help systems.  I know how long it takes to work through software and document everything it does, and there will always be some fool who tries to use it in a "creative" way.  Probably because of the years I have spent using other software, I struggled at first with Templot, but persevered and got there in the end.

Martin, can I suggest to you that as Brian has obviously not "got there" that you refund his money - I suggest what he paid less 10% for each year since the initial purchase.  He will then have no further cause for complaint.

Brian, can I suggest to you that, as you are about to retire, you will have lots of time to develop a software program (full documented of course) that you can then market to rival Templot.

As I have already admitted to being a Technical Author I'll publically offer to write a User Manual for Templot, but not until I reach retirement which not will be for a few years yet.

All the above needs an added :-)

Peter


Brian Lewis wrote:
Oh!  I have seen nothing on the forum.  Were the folk not brave enough to  air their views openly?

I see I should have added, 'spineless' to the 'simpering acolytes'.....:D

Stay well Martin.

Regards

Brian Lewis.

Martin Wynne wrote:
Brian Lewis wrote:
Be sure I will continue to bring this matter to the forum at intervals. And you can be just as sure that the usual crowd of simpering acolytes will crawl out of the woodwork
Brian,

It's not acceptable to insult your fellow forum members in this way. I have had several messages of complaint about it.

If you are not happy with Templot, please confine your name-calling to the person who supplied it -- me. No-one else is responsible for its failings.

Martin.



posted: 29 Jan 2010 22:41

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Bless you Peter.

I think that is a fitting epilogue to this gentle discussion........... for the moment at least  :D

Regards

Brian Lewis.


Peter_Hirons wrote:
Oh dear! This is getting exceedingly tiresome!  I've kept out of this up to now as it is really nothing to do with me, but I feel some sympathy with both sides of the "discussion". 

Firstly I must say I have great respect for both parties - Martin for producing a unique piece of software, and Brian for building a successful business in an area where many have failed. I am a satisfied customer of both.

My day job is (and has been for the last 30 years) as a Technical Author, writing mostly computer software documentation and help systems.  I know how long it takes to work through software and document everything it does, and there will always be some fool who tries to use it in a "creative" way.  Probably because of the years I have spent using other software, I struggled at first with Templot, but persevered and got there in the end.

Martin, can I suggest to you that as Brian has obviously not "got there" that you refund his money - I suggest what he paid less 10% for each year since the initial purchase.  He will then have no further cause for complaint.

Brian, can I suggest to you that, as you are about to retire, you will have lots of time to develop a software program (full documented of course) that you can then market to rival Templot.

As I have already admitted to being a Technical Author I'll publically offer to write a User Manual for Templot, but not until I reach retirement which not will be for a few years yet.

All the above needs an added :-)

Peter

 




posted: 30 Jan 2010 01:40

from:

Bruce Wilson
 
Barrie - Ontario Canada

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Brian:

Name calling shouldn't get you anywhere especially when you insult others on this forum.

I purchased Templot several years ago and the biggest issue I had was trying to forget my CAD background and realize Templot is a different beast.  Unlike you instead of whining about it I started going through all the tutorials Martin had prepared and asked questions on the forum and after some starts and stops I was able to grasp the basics and was able to produce something I could use.  I am still no expert and pick up many valuable tips from this forum and the more I use Templot the more comfortable I become with it.  This forum and the tutorials are a great resource that IMHO go well beyond a printed document.

WRT manuals I have some pieces of software that manuals do not answer specific questions I have and these are from some major companies.  Oh, BTW many of these major pieces of software have great support groups that answer the questions users have, that is where I have found the most useful advice, not in some book.




Brian Lewis wrote:
Grateful for that Paul, but it is not sympathy I want. What I do want is no more and no less than I expect when I purchase software, i.e. adequate user guides. .  It would be interesting to know just how many folk have purchased Templot, have failed to get to grips with it and resultantly now never use it.

Track layout software can do so much - it brings reality to so many square feet of plywood. Most folk really have little idea of the space realistic curves, run round loops, crossovers, etc. occupy. I spent many years championing Templot. Now I feel let down - it is just not something I feel I can now recommend  to anyone.

Be sure I will continue to bring this matter to the forum at intervals. And you can be just as sure that the usual crowd of simpering acolytes will crawl out of the woodwork, singing Martin's praises...

And whilst that happens, what chance is there of anything happening


Paul Boyd wrote
I do have some sympathy with Brian - I've recently started using Sketchup which is an excellent program for the money (free!) but I just could not get on with it and the online guides were more baffling than helpful.  It took a 10 minute session with the boss to show me the basic principles and I was away.  Maybe Brian needs something similar with Templot from someone.



posted: 30 Jan 2010 07:31

from:

kenbec
 
Australia

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Hello all,
A final few words with apologies.
I had no intention of buying in to this thread until something was said that I thought was uncalled for. I had no idea that I was getting involved in the clash of the Titans.
Just so everyone knows where I am coming from, as if anyone cares but it will make me feel better.
I have just come to railway modelling late in life. Since I moved into my new home space became available and I decided to fulfil a long time desire to build a layout. I have always thought N gauge is best for me because I can reasonably fit more track into any area I have. In addition, from various sources, I have accumulated a lot of Peco Streamline code 80 flexible track together with a fairly substantial number of locos, wagons and coaches. So I am committed to N gauge code 80.
I am not saying that I will not be able to learn Templot without a manual, only that for me it will be more difficult. To those of you who have mastered it already, using what is available, I say well done :D Just be aware that not all people's minds work the same and I, whether from previous training or inherently, need to take each step and fully understand what and why I am doing it. Its the way I am :?
I find videos hard to use for reasons I have given previously and won't go into here, simply put I create my own step by step instructions from the video. I do find videos essential when a complex move is being demonstrated.
@Alan McMillan You are quit correct I totally misunderstood what you said for which I apologise.
Referring to one of your earlier statements “Learn by doing rather than reading; you'll learn more and you'll learn it faster than if you sit down with the manual. Even if an indexed manual existed, you would still have to sit down and work at familiarising yourself with the programme's functions. ”.
What you say is quite true, however a manual would just make it a lot quicker for me and the existence of a manual does not preclude learning by doing.
@Martin Wynne Thanks for your patience. Believe me I do understand your situation. My impatience has been brought on to some extent by my feeling that physically I probably don't have many more years when I will be able to crawl around under the baseboard tables. So I have to get on with it.:D This of course is not your problem it is mine.
I am sure that there is a treasure trove of information spread through Templot club pages and I will just have to go looking for it.
I don't like asking questions on forums; mainly because I am never sure that I am not asking questions that have been answered before. Please be assured that, if I do ask a question, I will have made an attempt to track down the answer beforehand. A gentle nudge in the right direction could be all that is needed.
In conclusion I give you my cast iron guarantee that I will not raise the topic of a manual in this context again. Unless someone makes an interesting or contentious comment of course.:D

So that's it for me.

Regards
ken

posted: 30 Jan 2010 08:38

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Kenneth Beckett wrote:
I don't like asking questions on forums; mainly because I am never sure that I am not asking questions that have been answered before.
Hi Ken,

The Templot Club forum is here to help you. If you get stuck, please ask. It doesn't matter how many times the same question has been asked before. It doesn't take a minute for someone to post a link to the previous relevant topic or web page. Also, repeated asking of the same question is a great help to me in knowing where something is lacking in the docs.

It's been drawn to my attention that the links to these pages:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/pug_info_1.htm

are not very prominent, and they do contain a lot of information. The answer to Brian's question about F7 snapping, for example. Those pages are also available as PDF files for easy printing.

I will put some extra links somewhere.

Also, this topic is important if you are using 091c:

 topic 113

We have a total of four different search engines on this web site, each producing slightly different results, so it's worth trying them all.

It pains me to say it, but one of the most useful is actually the Yahoo search at:

 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/messages?expand=1

which combines phrase searching with results in chronological order, and is always right up to date. It's not necessary to join the Yahoo group to use that search, its available to all.

Also extremely useful is the FreeFind word index at:

 http://search.freefind.com/siteindex.html?si=32603503

which may not be well known.

The primary site search is at: http://www.templot.com/zoom/search_cgi.htm

And there are two more search options at: http://85a.co.uk/forum/search_templot.htm

regards,

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2010 09:08

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
What I do want is no more and no less than I expect when I purchase software, i.e. adequate user guides. .  It would be interesting to know just how many folk have purchased Templot, have failed to get to grips with it and resultantly now never use it.

Paul Boyd wrote
I've recently started using Sketchup ...but I just could not get on with it and the online guides were more baffling than helpful. 


Writing decent user manuals is not easy. When I developed software I was often appalled at how bad fine programmers were at writing the documentation.

Another example - in the 1980s I wrote a document on all the various operating systems & text editors we encountered. For the text editors the first line was how to edit a file, and the second line was how to exit without saving your changes. The user manuals often gave that vital information buried deep inside the manual - hardly helpful when you are in a hurry on a client site.

I often want to do something with software that other users may not consider, consequently I find most user guides very hard to follow. Even though I have a book on AutoCad I cannot (yet) get to grips with it - I don't want to know about windows & doors, I just want to make a design for a baseboard.

Conversely I have got to grips with Templot enough that I'm giving a talk on it at my club in about 2 weeks time.

Howard.

 

 

posted: 30 Jan 2010 13:05

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Howard wrote:
Even though I have a book on AutoCad I cannot (yet) get to grips with it - I don't want to know about windows & doors, I just want to make a design for a baseboard.
Can I suggest you have a look at Google Sketchup?  This is free and more than adequate for designing baseboards.  As you may have read in one of my earlier posts, I had problems getting going with it but once you get the hang of it, it's great!  The current free version has a plug-in available that allows you to import DXFs (exported from Templot, of course!) so you can really go to town with 3D layout planning if you want!

Cheers

posted: 23 Sep 2010 12:11

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Brian,

I am just converting a Bachmann 4-CEP to P4 so was interested in your reference above.  I am puzzled by what you are refering to when you talk about "pick-up skates".

It might be important in helping me not miss something which might be important - for various reasons, it is a bit of a tricky job and I have found no real references to anyone else doing one out there in internet land.

Could you say a bit more please?

Best Regards,

 

Howard

 



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