Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 04:40 from: Martin Wynne
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Dear all, I've been aware for some time that the Templot web site contains a lot of information, but is somewhat lacking in -- well, style, flair, design, you know the sort of thing -- something that says it was created by someone with a bit more visual sense than this oily-fingered engineer. So I've been looking around web design companies for ideas, but clearly I'm missing something. For example here is the site of a web site firm based near here: Hughes Media Yellow headings on white? Small text in pale grey? Are my eyes so much worse than the average, or are these sites all created by 25-year-olds with perfect vision and top-of-the-range monitors? And wherever I look is the same small pale grey text. What's going on? Where is the sense in publishing a web site which I can barely read?  I'd welcome some ideas for how to get the Templot web site looking a bit more stylish without ending up with something as daft as this. Do you have a favourite web site which looks good and is actually readable? regards, Martin. |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 05:22 from: John Lewis
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Martin Wynne wrote: I'd welcome some ideas for how to get the Templot web site looking a bit more stylish without ending up with something as daft as this. Do you have a favourite web site which looks good and is actually readable?The SEMG site: http://www.semg.org.uk/ is generally easy to read and has an enormous amount of material (including some of my prototype photos). John |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 06:18 from: Bill_Lobb
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Martin Wynne wrote: Dear all, At the risk of sounding ungrateful, I like the Templot web site as it is. I don't really see that there is much to be gained by making it more 'stylish'. It conveys the information it needs to in a way that I find easy to find my way around. Thats all the 'style' I need. Bill |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 10:30 from: Templot User
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----- from Andy Reichert ----- http://www.Sergentengineering.com Clean and simple. Andy |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 13:26 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi MartinSo I've been looking around web design companies for ideas, but clearly I'm missing something. For example here is the site of a web site firm based near here: Hughes Media Yellow headings on white? Small text in pale grey? Are my eyes so much worse than the average, or are these sites all created by 25-year-olds with perfect vision and top-of-the-range monitors?Ummm - apart from the white text on a yellow background, I find that site very clean and easy to read. It isn't full of Flash and gimmicks that only serve to show how clever the designer is instead of getting the message across. The colour of the text against the plain white background reduces the contrast compared to plain black, which makes it easier on the eye. And I haven't been 25 for nearly 17 years  Have you looked at their portfolio page? There might be some ideas there.I'd welcome some ideas for how to get the Templot web site looking a bit more stylish without ending up with something as daft as this. Do you have a favourite web site which looks good and is actually readable?I don't know about a favourite website as such, but the people we're using for our company re-branding (!!) are http://www.halomedia.co.uk/html/index.html If you go onto the "Our Work" link, there are some web examples near the bottom of the page that might give some more ideas. Like Hughes though, they are constrained to some extent by what their customer's want. Having said that, what's wrong with the site as it is? The only thing I think could be better is navigation around the site - I find it a bit confusing sometimes and hard to find what I'm looking for! Dare I suggest a frame-based site, so that the navigation bar is always the same and in the same place? Their can't be anyone these days who is still using a browser that can't support frames. The "house style" itself though is fine |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 16:06 from: Brian W Lewis
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Martin Wynne wrote: Dear all, Hi Martin. There is a positive advantage in a web site that is focused, to the point and intensely practical - to use your words, looks as if it was created by an "oily-fingered engineer" - i.e. someone who knows what he's talking about! Too many sites - as you have noticed - lean too much towards (badly conceived) style to the detriment of substance. Regards, Brian W Lewis, Lakeland |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 17:16 from: Templot User
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----- from Nigel Brown ----- Bill_Lobb wrote: At the risk of sounding ungrateful, I like the Templot web site as it is. I don't really see that there is much to be gained by making it more 'stylish'. It conveys the information it needs to in a way that I find easy to find my way around. Thats all the 'style' I need.Agreed. Also it's currently fully under your control, whereas you may find someone else's design restrictive. Nigel |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 17:29 from: Ashley click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin,I've been aware for some time that the Templot web site contains a lot of information, but is somewhat lacking in -- well, style, flair, design, you know the sort of thing -- something that says it was created by someone with a bit more visual sense than this oily-fingered engineer.Not sure I would agree with that rather negative take on your website. So I've been looking around web design companies for ideas, but clearly I'm missing something. For example here is the site of a web site firm based near here: Hughes MediaAll that glistens is not gold. I'd welcome some ideas for how to get the Templot web site looking a bit more stylish without ending up with something as daft as this. Do you have a favourite web site which looks good and is actually readable?All I would change on your site is the indexing (or internal site search engine) and the inclusion of a web site map. Ashley |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 17:34 from: Phil O
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Hi Martin I have just had a look at that web site and I would say it is user unfriendly. I look at planet rock.com from time to time and they use white letters on darker colours and I can read that alright even with my failing eyesight.  I hope this is of some use to you. Cheers Phil PS. has the river level dropped yet as my brother is in Kidder and his workshop was close to getting the Stour in there on Sat |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 19:28 from: David R
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Martin, ALL UK web-site designers should currently be considering the implications of the Disability Discrimination Act on their work. Basically this seems to involve:
As for the current Templot.com just keep adding/updating the content. Regards, Dave R |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 19:40 from: Martin Wynne
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David R wrote: Personally the only one I'd like added (to Templot.com AND Templot.Club) is number 2 -- much of the text is too large for me, I seem to spend forever scrolling up and down!Hi Dave, Just hold down the Ctrl key and roll the mouse wheel. You can set the text size to any size you want. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 19:51 from: Paul Boyd
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Personally the only one I'd like added (to Templot.com AND Templot.Club) is number 2 -- much of the text is too large for me, I seem to spend forever scrolling up and down!Use the Ctrl-Numpad(+) and (-) keys to change the text suze to suit you. This is done in the browser, not the website. Otherwise, yes, all websites are supposed to comply with the DDA these days. |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 20:26 from: Dave Phillips
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I'd welcome some ideas for how to get the Templot web site looking a bit more stylish without ending up with something as daft as this. Do you have a favourite web site which looks good and is actually readable?Martin, Personally I'd rather see your efforts going toward further development of Templot and necessary update of the web site's content, rather than the style. Dave Phillips |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 20:35 from: Martin Wynne
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David R wrote: ALL UK web-site designers should currently be considering the implications of the Disability Discrimination Act on their work. Basically this seems to involve:Hi Dave, I have every sympathy with the visually-impaired, but I'm puzzled by what would be achieved by providing greater disability access to the Templot web site than is available in the program itself. The program can't display an audio version of the workpad, so there seems little point in having a tutorial screenshot image which attempts to do so. I can't begin to imagine the "long text description" of a screenshot showing a mouse action in use to adjust the alignment of a transition curve, or to align track over a background scan, which presumably itself would need an audio description? There would be 10 times more text in the Alt tags than in the page itself, it would take much longer to load, and take impossibly longer for me to write -- and all to describe a program which unfortunately is never going to be of much use to those who can't see the screen. Losing one's sight must be devastating, but I can't help thinking the loss of Templot would be the least of your worries. Templot by audio seems to make as much sense as a magic show on the radio! regards, Martin. |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 20:39 from: David R
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Martin Wynne wrote: David R wrote:Personally the only one I'd like added (to Templot.com AND Templot.Club) is number 2 -- much of the text is too large for me, I seem to spend forever scrolling up and down!Just hold down the Ctrl key and roll the mouse wheel. You can set the text size to any size you want. Oh no it doesn't (at least not for me!) -- neither does Ctrl numpad +/- as suggested by others. I use Internet Explorer v6 sp2 to view the forum at work -- determined by my employer's sole customer because nothing else has been approved to work with their online Java applications, that was several billion £s of taxpayer's money well spent wasn't it? And please don't let's start the "anything is better that IE" thread again, some of us have no choice! Regards, Dave R |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 21:00 from: David R
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Martin Wynne wrote: David R wrote:ALL UK web-site designers should currently be considering the implications of the Disability Discrimination Act on their work. Basically this seems to involve:Hi Dave, Martin, I don't disagree with anything you've written. My point was that web sites should be complying with the D.D.A. (whether it makes sense for them to do so or not). Who is going to prosecute the authors of the millions of non-complying pages I know not -- but I bet there's a government department somewhere allocated the task... Some aspects of D.D.A. compliance (e.g. font resizing, colour schemes) can allow choice for all users whether they have a disability or not. Hard-coding font sizes to 12 points (or 14 pixels or whatever) does not allow some browsers to change the size -- coding the font size as a percentage does. It was this user choice I was hoping you could add to templot.com and templot.club rather than some non-greasy flair. Regards, Dave R |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 21:01 from: Martin Wynne
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David R wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:Hi Dave,Just hold down the Ctrl key and roll the mouse wheel. You can set the text size to any size you want.Oh no it doesn't (at least not for me!) -- neither does Ctrl numpad +/- as suggested by others. Presumably if you are locked to Microsoft you will have to upgrade to IE7 -- otherwise eventually no support? You can change the text size in IE7, although it acts as a "page zoom" and scales the images also. Even the very simple HTML help viewer in 0.91.b can scale the text, so why IE6 can't manage it is a bit of a mystery. I know IE6 can do it if I change the text coding to point sizes instead of pixels -- but where's the logic in using 1/72nd of an inch as the size unit on a pixel-based display of unknown physical size? regards, Martin. |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 21:26 from: Martin Wynne
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David R wrote: Some aspects of D.D.A. compliance (e.g. font resizing, colour schemes) can allow choice for all users whether they have a disability or not. Hard-coding font sizes to 12 points (or 14 pixels or whatever) does not allow some browsers to change the size -- coding the font size as a percentage does. It was this user choice I was hoping you could add to templot.com and templot.club rather than some non-greasy flair.Hi Dave, That seems to be a failing of the browser rather than the web site. However I will see what I can do about it. I like using pixel-coding because it means that you see exactly the same as I see as I'm writing -- unless you specifically opt to change it. Any other option means I have no idea what your screen is looking like -- I have seen some less-savvy computer users with extraordinary browser settings, and no idea that they could be changed to something more friendly. It's interesting that you prefer smaller text to scrolling. I always prefer to scroll, just a flick of the mouse wheel takes you up and down the page easily, and you can sit back and read instead of peering forward at the screen. Much more comfortable. But each to his own as always. Perhaps this is a laptop v. desktop thing? regards, Martin. |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 22:13 from: Martin Wynne
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David R wrote:Hi Dave,Some aspects of D.D.A. compliance (e.g. font resizing, colour schemes) can allow choice for all users whether they have a disability or not. Hard-coding font sizes to 12 points (or 14 pixels or whatever) does not allow some browsers to change the size -- coding the font size as a percentage does. It was this user choice I was hoping you could add to templot.com and templot.club rather than some non-greasy flair.Hi Dave, I should have mentioned that for this site (Templot Club), there is an alternative theme available with much smaller text (and some awful green graphics, I'm afraid). Go to My Account > Preferences > Theme, and change your setting from Shades to Default. Then click Save. Please note that I disclaim all responsibility for any ruined eyesight which results! regards, Martin. |
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posted: 23 Jul 2007 22:20 from: Paul Boyd
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Martin said:It's interesting that you prefer smaller text to scrolling. I always prefer to scroll, just a flick of the mouse wheel takes you up and down the page easily, and you can sit back and read instead of peering forward at the screen. Much more comfortable. But each to his own as always. Perhaps this is a laptop v. desktop thing?I'll add my vote to smaller text rather than scrolling, on both laptops and desktops. I hate scrolling! This is why Ctrl-numberpad thingy is so useful... |
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posted: 24 Jul 2007 02:22 from: John Lewis
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Martin Wynne wrote: Templot by audio seems to make as much sense as a magic show on the radio!Pictures on the radio are usually much better than on TV! John |
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posted: 24 Jul 2007 02:27 from: John Lewis
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David R wrote: I don't disagree with anything you've written. My point was that web sites should be complying with the D.D.A. (whether it makes sense for them to do so or not). Who is going to prosecute the authors of the millions of non-complying pages I know not -- but I bet there's a government department somewhere allocated the task...And no doubt paying millions to management consultants to fiddle their target figures ...! John |
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posted: 24 Jul 2007 05:33 from: GeoffB click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin, Have a look at Martin Wynne wrote: Dear all, |
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posted: 24 Jul 2007 15:50 from: Templot User
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----- from Trevor Shaw ----- Brian W Lewis wrote: There is a positive advantage in a web site that is focused, to the point and intensely practical - to use your words, looks as if it was created by an "oily-fingered engineer" - i.e. someone who knows what he's talking about!There are two sorts of websites that I dislike. (a) Those that intend to impress rather than inform (and there are a lot of those, including that of the company I worked for before I retired); (b) those that have flashy stuff going on, intended to divert your attention to adverts etc. To have a look at the sort of workmanlike website I like, look at allcomponents, supplier of electrical and electronic components to the model railway trade. It's very plain, very easy to find what you want and easy to order from. Its only failing, perhaps, is too little technical information on some of its products. For example, how big are the miniature switches, are the bi-colour LEDs the sort that need 3 wires (central cathode and an anode each for the two colours) or the sort that need 2 wires (anode-cathode for one colour becomes cathode-anode for the other). Unless I know the answer, I don't know whether to order 3-pole or 4-pole switches for points and signals in the two panels I'm building. I'll have to phone and ask tomorrow. Incidentally, ALLComponents is significantly cheaper that Maplins, for example, and has very reasonable P&P charges. We're almost back on topic. Best wishes, Trevor Shaw. |
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posted: 24 Jul 2007 18:26 from: Alan Turner
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If you want strightforward, does what it says on the tin, look no further than GOOGLE. Alan |
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posted: 24 Jul 2007 19:03 from: Paul Boyd
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Trevor Shaw wrote:We're almost back on topic.This forum is the off-topic one, so there's no topic to get back on to |
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posted: 25 Jul 2007 16:07 from: Martin Wynne
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Alan Turner wrote: If you want straightforward, does what it says on the tin, look no further than GOOGLE.Hi Alan, I'm hoping that Templot already does what it says on the tin! I was thinking maybe to make the tin a bit more attractive to look at. But the consensus seems to be that everyone likes the tin the way it is, with my oily finger marks all over it! Thanks to all for the comments. The font size thing is interesting. How many prefer the "Default" theme for this site with its minuscule text? It gives me a headache just looking at it with a screenful of such tiny text, but presumably Aycan set it at that size because some folks like it. I'm also wondering how much difference it makes when using the old-style font smoothing in Windows98 (or even none at all), versus "Cleartype" in WindowsXP. Likewise the difference between a CRT and LCD monitor. I occasionally check the Templot web stuff in Win98 on a CRT, which is why I set most of it to 18px font size to make it comfortable to read on there. Thanks again for the comments. I will try to find some interesting header images for the web pages, but otherwise I think I will leave things as they are. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 11 Aug 2007 22:40 from: Bruce Fletcher
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Martin Wynne wrote: David R wrote:ALL UK web-site designers should currently be considering the implications of the Disability Discrimination Act on their work. Basically this seems to involve:Hi Dave, I used to work in a Government department alongside someone who had been blind from birth yet managed to acquire a degree in maths and hold down a full-time job providing second-line support to users of Microsoft Office. It was quite amazing to watch him at work with no VDU or mouse, just a headset (phone in one ear, screen reader output in the other) and a keyboard; needless to say his knowledge of key stroke combinations was encyclopaedic! His greatest annoyance on the internet was an image with no description at all or the equally useless default of "{short description of image}". He did not want a long, rambling description of an image but a very brief description (map of the world, photo of a rabbit, etc) helped him place the image in the context of the web page. |
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posted: 2 Jul 2008 19:32 from: David R
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Martin Wynne wrote: I should have mentioned that for this site (Templot Club), there is an alternative theme available with much smaller text (and some awful green graphics, I'm afraid). ...but not since the forum software was updated last month. Or can I not see it because it's now too large? Since this thread started last July I have to report that my employer has allowed me to update to IE7 and that ctrl+mousewheel and ctrl+numpad"+" and ctrl+numpad"-" do indeed now zoom the entire web-page (not just the text-size). But it would still be nice if my Templot Club Preferences could be set to, and remember, a smaller font for me: one to add below the bottom of the "to-do" list  Regards, David R |
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posted: 2 Jul 2008 20:37 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi David, I'm sorry there is not at present an alternative page theme available for Templot Club. I have made several changes to the scripts, and to provide an alternative theme means doing everything twice. If you want to read the topics in a smaller font, try clicking the Printer friendly button at the top of the page (although you can't reply from that view). You can also read the messages in a different font (and chronological order) on the Yahoo site if you prefer. In due course I will provide an alternative small font theme, probably this one , but I can't say when that might be. Anyone else? If a significant number ask I will move it up the list of things to do. (The awful green theme is no longer available in the upgraded forum software.)In IE7 you can now zoom the page, but it has the disadvantage that it also reduces the size of the images. In Firefox 3 that is now an option -- zoom text only or zoom text and images. IE8 is not far away and may allow that too. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 3 Jul 2008 08:40 from: Martin Wynne
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I wrote: In due course I will provide an alternative small font themeHi David, Ok, here you go. A smaller font version of the site. Click My Account > Preferences. Change the Theme: combobox from Shades to Smallfont and click the Save button. I can change the font sizes further if something's not right, but I've gone cross-eyed working on it and I shall have to stop now. Let me know if you'd like anything changed.Note that this will work only while you are logged in, if you log out the display will revert to the default sizes while you are logged out. It will be interesting to see how many members make the change. But I know I won't be one of them! regards, Martin. |
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posted: 3 Jul 2008 18:26 from: David R
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Martin Wynne wrote: In due course I will provide an alternative small font themeIt will be interesting to see how many members make the change. But I know I won't be one of them! This member has changed; thank you Martin for the excellent response. |
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posted: 3 Jul 2008 18:40 from: richard_t
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Me too - thanks  |
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posted: 4 Jul 2008 02:48 from: Adrian click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Me 3! - Looks fine with the "smaller" font. Adrian |
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