Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 10 Feb 2011 22:10 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi Martin, Sorry to say I think I have found a fault that crashes my system.  The crash occurs when I use one of my large size bitmap files of Birmingham New Street as background in Templot, (with, I might add, no other application running on my PC). The bitmap file loads perfectly OK and provided I do not zoom in too much I can carry on working ad-infinitum (as far as I can estimate). However, when I zoom in very close for alignment purposes, and try to manipulate the control template, it crashes the system. Without the large background file loaded, Templot works fine right up to, and including the largest zoom factors, it is only when I have the large file version of background on the workpad does the problem occur. Please note, if I use smaller background files, these do not seem to give rise to the problem, which suggests that there may be a file size limitation for background images which allows zooming very close in. When the crash occurs, the screen goes totally black for several seconds, then a blue screen appears with a message on, this blue screen lasts for a few seconds only (not really enough time to read it all), then the system goes into reset/restart mode and fires up the O S again thus having to start from scratch. Needless to say, any work since the last save in Templot has been lost, and it’s driving me cracker’s.  I have managed to catch a photo of the blue screen with my digital camera which I had standing bye just in case. This blue screen is suggesting that something goes wrong with the nv4_disp file which I believe, is part of the display system ( in possibly the Winfast A340 handler). Now this crash only occurs when I use Templot, all other applications (such as Photoshop CS, Autocad 2009 and other graphics programs) work perfectly well, irrespective of large file sizes or number of manipulations performed within these programs. For example, I frequently work with files of size 980 MB in Photoshop CS and do lots of manipulations and changes on those files and never get a problem. Now for my system details: OS: is Win XP home edition SP 3. Processor: AMD Athlon XP 3000+, speed 2.17 GHz Ram memory: 3 GB Display adapters: NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Version of Templot: v0.91c Printer used: Epson Stylus Photo 1290 (A3) And for the problem background file sizes used: (a) 24 bit colour at 431.077 MB (431,077 KB) bitmap (b) 8 bit grey scale at 143.694 MB (143,694 KB) bitmap What is scale of track plan: The plan was originally drawn up by the LNWR to a scale of 40 foot to 1 inch (1:480), however due to perhaps bad storage over the years (1921 to date) I found the plan had shrunk slightly and had to modify the scaling in Templot to 1:492 to correct for shrinkage. This ratio was determined in Templot by trial and error, using the ruler against the scaling bar of the background image and also measuring a known proto distance on the plan background image. Plan size (from original Tiff file): approx. 62” x 27” I say approx because when I had a print taken from the original file which was supposed to be 1:1, the local printer appears to have printed it just a tad under 1:1 so these dimensions were taken from that printout copy as an approximation. I have attached a PDF file named: error_report_09_02_2011.pdf which contains all the on screen messages, including the blue screen message photo art the time of the crash. Also if it would help, I can send you the system mini-dump files generated when the crashes occurred, please let me know if these are needed. I can only say, that apart from this annoying problem, I still think Templot is an excellent and very useful software package for designing track-work, probably the best, I sincerely enjoy using it for my project.  Now if there is any other information you need please do not hesitate to let me know. Best regards, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 10 Feb 2011 22:39 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Brian, Thanks for your very detailed report. I will investigate further. I think this message of mine from 8 years ago may be relevant: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/2686 regards, Martin. |
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posted: 10 Feb 2011 23:14 from: John McCrea
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Hi Brian This is not going to be much consolation but my system, which has a very similar specification to yours (AMD Athlon, Nvidia graphics card, Win XP SP-3) crashes with an 'nv4_disp' error when I run Pinnacle Studio but not when I run Templot. The biggest background scan that I have to load into the latter is only 92mb but with that I can zoom down to less than 1 sleeper without issues. The crash is caused by a file associated with your Nvidia graphics card. If you want to read the blue screen message you need to right click on your My Computer icon, click 'Advanced' then click 'Settings' in the 'Startup and Recovery' section. Untick 'Automatically restart' and the blue screen will remain visible until you reset your computer. You might also read up on Data Execution Prevention as the error is probably associated with that too. If you search the internet you will find many others with the same problem and also many proposed solutions; the main one being to update your graphics card drivers to the latest version from the Nvidia web site. I have done that but without solving the problem - you may have better luck. Other solutions involve using a 'custom' graphics card driver (i.e. hacked by someone to try to fix the error) and various other witchcraft. I may have missed it or be being uncharitable but Nvidia don't really seem to have reacted officially to the complaints. Another solution is to buy a graphics card manufactured by ATI as they don't use the problem file. I've just nicked a discarded ATI card from my son and will report back when I've fitted it if you want. One last thing: I originally had 2Gb of system memory which I increased to 3Gb. I may be imagining it but I think that my problems started then (prior to that Pinnacle Studio ran fine but it's hard to be precise on the timing). I've gone back to 2Gb but the issue remains. I'm fairly sure that Templot in your case and Pinnacle Studio in mine are only reacting to a potential instability in our systems rather than being the actual culprits. Regards John |
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posted: 11 Feb 2011 09:13 from: wcampbell23
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ATI graphics cards have their limitations as well! When working with large (40MB +) background images I have found that once beyond a certain degree of magnification the background image goes black. The graphics response time of the screen refresh is also much slower when working with background images larger than about 20MB. Increasing the amount of system RAM in my machine did not make any difference. Regards Bill Campbell. |
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posted: 11 Feb 2011 09:15 from: Alan Turner
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I have an ATI card and have never had this problem. Alan |
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posted: 11 Feb 2011 11:30 from: Martin Wynne
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I think this is the same problem as reported by me in 2003: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/2686 I seem to remember that we have mentioned it a few times over the years, although I can't find where. I have now tested four systems with a 100MB bitmap picture shape, two with nVidia graphics and two with ATI graphics. I have also tested them all again with a 5MB bitmap. I can reproduce the problem on both nVidia systems, regardless of the bitmap size. I tried disabling graphics hardware acceleration, which made no difference. I can't reproduce the problem on the ATI systems with any bitmap size. What happens on both nVidia systems is that when zooming with the image magnified to the point where a single pixel fills the screen, I get an instant hardware reset. No messages, no blue screens (until after the restart). When zooming in beyond that point on the ATI systems the image simply disappears, without error, and reappears when zooming back out. My feeling is that this is a hardware fault in the nVidia graphics chips. A register overflow of some sort. Only hardware can pull the processor reset line low. This would explain why it can't be fixed by software alone, such as by changing the driver. I shall have to have a think about what to do about this. I don't want to make any changes which would degrade Templot's capabilities for users of ATI graphics. In the meantime there are a couple of workarounds for nVidia users: 1. You can limit the maximum zoom-in level by going to main > program panel and changing the setting at program > max explode (zoom-in) menu item. Please read the help notes. The pre-set is 15mm. Increase it as necessary for the image you are using, to match the scale size of two pixels or more. (In the next Pug I have changed the pre-set to 10mm. You can go down to 0.5mm, but in practice there is little practical work which can be done if zoomed in that far. I sometimes go down to 5mm to get maximum precision when aligning things manually.) 2. Alternatively, if you need to retain the full zoom-in capability for track adjustments, you can temporarily turn off the picture shapes while you do so -- pad > pad background options > hide background shapes menu option. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 11 Feb 2011 17:52 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi Martin, Many thanks for your responses, apologies for not getting back to you sooner, had another crash shortly after my original posting last evening, so gave up and went to bed, also had to go out for the day on business. I have had this particular problem for a few months now, but just could not believe it was Templot that was causing it so did not post a message, however since I recently eliminated the possibility of all other applications on my PC giving rise to the problem, and was left only with the problem manifesting itself in Templot, I had to ask the question. From what you have established by your experiments, it would appear that the NVIDIA hardware chipset is to blame, and I tend to agree with that (I always did have an inkling that it was my PC). Martin Wynne wrote: What happens on both nVidia systems is that when zooming with the image magnified to the point where a single pixel fills the screen, I get an instant hardware reset. No messages, no blue screens (until after the restart). When I get a crash, it is usually when I have zoomed in and enlarged the image so that one single track gauge width (both rails just showing) at P4, fills about three quarters (or greater) of my screen width. To me this is no where near a single pixel filling the screen since the width of each rail line on the plan image is made up of several pixels. One point I did forget to mention in my original posting was that the resolution of my image files are 300 dpi. I take on board your suggestions for workarounds, and will just have to be more careful when zooming in the future. I have started working by placing the template as near to the plan lines, without zooming too close, then removing the background when I need to zoom in very closely to align things, however, on occasions I do get caught out when I just overdo it a tad with the zoom and background image still in view. Also I find I sometimes need to redo the positioning of track-work, particularly in very tight areas due to not being able to initially zoom in to place the items absolutely in the correct positions, thus resulting in infringements on clearances, particularly adjacent track. Also of course it slows things down quite a lot, but then I’m not galloping off to meet any particular deadlines ! I thank you investigating this problem in detail, it appears unless NVIDIA does something about their chipset nothing will change, or we will all have to use ATI cards ! As I mentioned before, I have a new PC on the go which is used at the moment for only graphics work, however, will have to add Templot (for which I need another licence) and see what happens. But first I will check what chipset is on board for the graphics card (I hope it’s not NVIDIA !!). Many thanks again Martin for your help. Best regards, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 11 Feb 2011 18:09 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi Brian As well as making sure you have the latest and correct graphics card drivers, it's also worth checking that you have the latest and correct motherboard chipset drivers. The latter caused me no end of grief a while back, and although the BSOD (Blue Screen Of Death) often reported that it was the nVidia drivers causing the problem, installing the correct drivers for the motherboard cured the problem completely. I should add that this was despite the fact that I have an separate graphics card, with the on-board graphics disabled in BIOS. In other words, it wasn't necessarily the nVidia drivers causing the problem, despite first appearances! My conclusion was that the BSOD just reports random garbage! If you really do want to read the screen before the automatic restart, there's a setting that holds the error message there until you hit the power button - it's in Control Panel => System => Advanced. In the Startup and Recovery Settings, untick Automatically Restart. Cheers |
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posted: 11 Feb 2011 18:16 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi John, Many thanks for your very detailed response, it appears that you dug into this dilemma on a previous occasion. It would seem you are of the same opinion as Martin as to the root cause, and I think you are both right. The latest investigation by Martin say’s it all, the NVIDIA chipset seems to be the culprit. I shall now have to consider very carefully whether to buy another graphics card, must cogitate the pro’s and con’s. All the best, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 11 Feb 2011 18:39 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi Paul, Thank you so much for your most enlightening response. Clearly you have now given me, and perhaps others, much more to think about regarding this particular problem. I will now have to investigate the drivers on my motherboard to see if they are the latest and up to date. I must admit, it would be great if what you are suggesting did indeed solve my problem, I’m sure that others in the club would be similarly overjoyed. Anyhow, will give your suggestion a try and see what materialises. All the best and again many thanks, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 11 Feb 2011 18:46 from: Brian Nicholls
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wcampbell23 wrote: ATI graphics cards have their limitations as well!Hi Bill, Many thanks for your comments regarding the ATI cards, this is the reason I said in my reply to John McCrea that I would have to way up the pros and cons of changing my graphics card. All the best, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 11 Feb 2011 20:16 from: JFS
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Hi Brian, Wow, I wonder is it necessary to use such big files? Reducing the resolution to 150 dpi would reduce the file sizes by 75% hopefully without impacting functionality too much. It might not reduce the instability of your graphics system but might significantly reduce your machine's greenhouse gas emissions:-) Having had too much experience of early Windows falling over every other 5 minutes I still find myself trying to lighten the system load at every possible opportunity. Regarding the functionality of modern graphics systems, I suspect that they are engineered for high frame rates in video games rather than manipulating large images hence NVIDIAs lack of interest in fixing this bug. Good Luck, Howard. |
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posted: 11 Feb 2011 20:44 from: Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote:there's a setting that holds the error message there until you hit the power button - it's in Control Panel => System => Advanced. In the Startup and Recovery Settings, untick Automatically Restart.Thanks Paul. More information arising.  I withdraw my suggestion that this is a hardware reset fault. But it still looks to me to be a hardware problem rather than software. I changed that setting, and then found that I could do quite a bit of close zooming around 1 pixel per full screen, zooming in and out and even closer, until eventually I saw this: 2_111515_480000000.png  I then had a hunch that it might simply be the graphics chip overheating, so I waited a few minutes for it to cool, and then clicked OK. Sure enough it carried on working fine. I could zoom back out and the entire computer appeared normal. I was able to make the above screenshot in the usual way. I then did a restart as instructed above, but I saw no blue screens and no error messages. This was with an 8-bit (grey-scale) bitmap at 300dpi. Brian wrote: When I get a crash, it is usually when I have zoomed in and enlarged the image so that one single track gauge width (both rails just showing) at P4, fills about three quarters (or greater) of my screen width. To me this is no where near a single pixel filling the screen since the width of each rail line on the plan image is made up of several pixels.I can confirm that this happens if I use 32-bit (full-colour) bitmaps* -- my previous reports about a single pixel filling the screen referred to 8-bit bitmaps. However there is no error message, the image is simply rendered all-black if I zoom in further. This must clearly be related to the amount of memory available on the graphics card. Overall system memory may not be relevant. *edit -- this applies to TBitmap32, see my next message. I'm now thoroughly confused about all this or what to do about it in Templot. However, the best workaround suggestion for my system appears to be: 1. deselect the Automatically Restart option. 2. if an error occurs as above, stop dead and wait for the graphics chips to cool off. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 12 Feb 2011 12:27 from: Martin Wynne
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I've now done a lot more testing. I'm convinced that on my nVidia system at least, this problem is caused by overheating of the graphics processor. By going very slowly one step at a time and waiting for the chip to cool each time, I can zoom in on a huge bitmap (12000 x 9000 pixels x 32-bit colour, 432MB) until way beyond the point where a single pixel fills the screen, and zoom back out, without error. But even a modest bitmap (1000 x 800) produces an error at low magnifications if I zoom rapidly to and fro. The error message from Windows is that "the file nv4_disp is stuck in an infinite loop, most likely because of a fault on the device itself". Overheating of nVidia chips seems to be a known issue, see: http://www.pcworld.com/article/191813/nvidia_warns_of_graphics_drivers_with_overheating_risk.html I can't produce any such error on my ATI system, no matter how large the bitmap or how fast I zoom to and fro. I don't think there is anything I can do about this in Templot, because it depends on the way the user zooms to and fro. Nevertheless I'm grateful to Brian for starting this topic because this testing has exposed a problem with the new picture shape files in the next Pug. I had intended to change to TBitmap32 graphics stored in HCK image format for improved handling of transparency. But it's now clear that this format doesn't zoom too well, so I have reverted to the standard Windows TBitmap graphics, but now stored in a modified PNG format. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 12 Feb 2011 14:37 from: Roger Henry
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I also had a PC failure after an nVidia card overheated. (Poor ventilation. System recovered after card cooled down and ventilation improved). My PC Guru also doesn't care for Nortons, nor Macafee. I use AVG, the paid up version, but everyone has their favourites. My Guru goes for 'Spyware Doctor'. I would ask around. See if they have a local office, with a help desk attached would be my advice. Roger, Brisbane |
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posted: 13 Feb 2011 14:44 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi All, I’m writing this response at this time, just before I start to perform some drastic maintenance and updates on my PC, which has been brought about by the very helpful comments of others in this thread posting and I am hoping that I will be able to post the results of what happens a little later on (fingers crossed and all that). But first I would like to say a big thank you to all who chipped in on this problem thread, in particular Martin who’s painstaking and dedicated investigations having given me much food for thought and perhaps a solution to the problem, and for the link to the overheating article (thank you Martin it is much appreciated, and I am happy that some good may have come out of all this regarding the image file choice for zooming). I would also like to especially thank Paul Boyd who suggested checking the driver files of the motherboard and other entities. Regarding the my motherboard drivers, I did not have much joy there as downloads I investigated for this board were all the old originals that I have already on board, and for a couple of files, those installed appeared to be later than the so called latest available on download. However, with respect to the NVIDIA divers, there I struck gold, it appears that the version of already installed drivers for this card are at version 56.73, however, the latest version form the NVIDIA site is at 175.19, quite a difference, so I dully downloaded this version, but have yet to install it (am hoping that I don’t screw things up when I do install, that’s why I’m communicating this message whilst I still can). Another thanks goes to Roger Henry who kindly reminded me that I need to clean and remove any dust from the case and from inside the box, although I do keep both the monitor and PC case fully covered when not in use. In addition it also reminded me to check all fans are working correctly (I have had experience of ‘sticky’ fans before on another previous PC). Well I am about to start the dreaded updates, cleaning and checking maintenance, once done, if I still have a running system, I will then investigate to see if there is any improvement when zooming in using Templot, this may take a while, so will be in touch when I can to give a more detailed report on the outcome. As a PS, one other thing I forgot to mention in my initial message, was that I have my monitor screen resolution set to 1920 x 1080 pixels, which may or may not be of significance. All the best, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 13 Feb 2011 20:39 from: Brian Nicholls
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Hi Martin and All, As promised, the report on my deeds of the day. OK, I first installed the NVIDIA updated drivers which went fine (still had a running system afterwards), I then did a couple of zooming checks in Templot, the result was the same, the system crashed and had to be restarted each time. I then took the side plate off the box, cleaned out the dust and checked that all fans were functioning properly, which they were. One thing I did discover during this process was that, in essence, the graphics card is mounted upside down ! What is meant by this is, that due to the fixed vertical position of the motherboard (which cannot be changed) mounted on the one side of the box, the graphics card can only be fitted horizontally with the component side (containing the chip heat-sink) facing downwards, therefore all the heat generated does not dissipate towards the tips of the heat-sink ridges, but tends to rise back towards the chip (clearly not a well thought out box fixture, mechanically speaking). I then decided to perform more zooming checks with the side plate off the box, again the result was the same, the system crashed each time. I even sat near to the unit blowing air onto the graphics card with my mouth to see if that improved things, it did not. I am now left in the same quandary as Martin, I don’t know if it’s chip over heating or the amount of graphics memory that is on my card. It could be either, but I did note that when I zoomed to crash point, the zooming took much longer before the blackout and subsequent blue screen message. BTW, my Verto FX 5200 card apparently has 128 MB of memory on board, just thought I would mention that. All is not lost however, I will just have to work carefully and take extra care not to zoom in too close. That’s it, again thank you Martin and all for helping to try and understand this particular problem. All the best, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 14 Feb 2011 01:18 from: Max
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Brian,try to uninstall your NVIDIA driver when computer is in 'Safe Mode',thereafter run a 'registry' program cleaner. Reboot to normal mode and install the new driver. Regards Max |
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posted: 14 Feb 2011 08:20 from: JFS
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Hi Brian, 128Mb of RAM of your card? And you are expecting it to handle a zoom on a 400+Mb image??? Are you 'avin a larf? I think you are lucky it performs as well as it does. Just buy a new card - even a base level card - costing less than 30 quid - will have half a Gig of RAM these days. You can get a card with 1Gb for 43 quid. http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/prods/components/nvidiageforcegraphicscards/novatech/ (just the first link from Google) Even better, it will update all its own drivers when you install it! Best Wishes, Howard. |
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posted: 14 Feb 2011 14:52 from: Brian Nicholls
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JFS wrote: 128Mb of RAM of your card? And you are expecting it to handle a zoom on a 400+Mb image??? Are you 'avin a larf? Hi Howard, Yes it does look as if my graphics card memory has been working overtime, this is what I have now concluded, that because of the continuous high rate of through put, when zooming, the chips are getting over heated. I think it’s worth a shot in getting a new and better equipped graphics card as you suggest, and many thanks for the pointer to Novatech there’s plenty of choice there, I shall be on the phone to them shortly. I will let the group know the result when the new card is installed (hoping it makes a difference, we shall see). Best regards, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 14 Feb 2011 14:55 from: Brian Nicholls
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Max wrote: Brian,try to uninstall your NVIDIA driver when computer is in 'Safe Mode',thereafter run a 'registry' program cleaner. Hi Max, Many thanks for the advice will give it go, I think it’s about time I cleaned out the junk from my system, having gathered lots of clutter over the years. Best regards, Brian Nicholls. |
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posted: 15 Feb 2011 18:21 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi Brian Whilst you have your case apart, it's worth checking that any fans you have in there, including the PSU fan, are all working together. By that, I mean not trying to blow air against each other! Air can only take the heat away with it if it's going somewhere. Apart from the CPU, PSU and graphics card fan, I have a big, lazy fan pulling air in the front and two smaller fans pushing it out the back. They all run quite slowly so the system is quiet - the knack is planning your airflow! My early home-build PCs sounded like Harrier jump jets taking off, but right now I can't hear the PC at all over the sound of the cooker hood fan Cheers |
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posted: 15 Feb 2011 19:24 from: Brian Nicholls
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Paul Boyd wrote: Hi Brian Hi Paul, Strange as it may seem, when I had the box open, I did contemplate putting an extra fan in there which would assist cooling of the graphics card, as my card has no fan ! I even worked out the brackets required to fit the additional fan, but have yet to fit one. Another thing that was suggested by Howard (JFS) was to install a newer and better graphics card with lots more memory on board. As he suggested, I did contact Novatech by email and telephone, but alas the newer high performance cards, now available, are not compatible with my older system motherboard. It’s to do with the PCI bus being different, having changed about four years ago, to PCI Express, on the later PC motherboards, so cannot go any further down that route. All the best and again many thanks for your thoughts, Brian Nicholls. |
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