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topic: 1385Soldering Steel Rail
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posted: 23 Feb 2011 10:33

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,

Every time I have to build with steel rail, I know that I am going to have to deal with the rust problem after soldering. This is because of the flux needed.

Does anybody have an easy solution to this?

posted: 23 Feb 2011 11:03

from:

BeamEnds
 
 

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I don't know if it will work, but one of the 'non acid' fluxes might help. Or perhaps a quick paint with an etch primer (maybe a zinc rich primer?) immediately after the joint has cooled and cleaned as per welding.

Cheers
Richard

posted: 23 Feb 2011 11:55

from:

Raymond
 
Bexhill-on-sea - United Kingdom

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Borg-Rail wrote:
Hi,

Every time I have to build with steel rail, I know that I am going to have to deal with the rust problem after soldering. This is because of the flux needed.

Does anybody have an easy solution to this?


Why not try C&L's solder cream?  It is non acid and designed to leave little or not residues.  Not cheap but one tube goes a very long way.

Regards

Raymond

posted: 23 Feb 2011 13:39

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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This is a really good question!

Every one seems to rave about the benefits of steel rail yet steel is NOT easy to solder! All the fluxes which are recommended for steel are acids and so corrosive - not a problem if can dunk the whole lot in passivating solution, but not possible with track work!

Have you tried using any of the so-called neutralising rinses such as sold by Brian under the Carr's label?

Howard.

posted: 23 Feb 2011 14:15

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Yes - I've tried the neutralising rinse, still rusts:(.
Perhaps if I give it a rinse over with yellow label that might work (phosphoric acid is a common component in rust treatments). Plus I've just remembered I might have some rust inhibitor somewhere. I'll give that a go as well.

posted: 23 Feb 2011 18:32

from:

Richard Spratt
 
Stockton-upon-Tees - United Kingdom

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I never bother.  I just let the sides of the rails rust and polish the tops with emery.  After all who ever saw full scale rail with sides that weren't rusted?

posted: 23 Feb 2011 18:40

from:

Nick Edgcombe
 
 

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Carrs orange label flux is what i use on steel rail as it dosn't need washing off after!!!

posted: 23 Feb 2011 20:59

from:

Steve Stubbs
 
Taunton, Somerset - United Kingdom

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After construction clean track with Jiff and and old toothbrush. Wrap in kitchen towel and place on radiator to dry thoroughly. Then paint sides of rail rust coloured!

If you have to build in-situ, after construction clean track with well soaked cotton wool balls wetter with meths.

Or as suggested elsewhere use Carrs 179 solder in a syringe which does not need cleaning afterwards, resin based flux. One syringe (though expensive) goes a long long way and allows you to put the precise amount of solder exactly where you want it......

Steve

posted: 24 Feb 2011 08:10

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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I've been using a paste flux for the past few years for soldering and,  to date,  residue has never left any oxidisation.  I did a particular test on a brass coach underframe about ten years ago,  leaving a lot of flux residue on the metal,  and that has shown no sign of any oxidisation in all that time.  I built a good few yards of PCB sleepered N scale track using it and nothing untoward has shown up in the past two years.

I have to admit that I haven't tried the flux on steel but I might dig out a couple of bits today and try a test joint and leave it for a few days and see what happens.

The flux I use is Templers Telux - web site here

http://www.gwneale.co.uk/telux.html

Jim.

posted: 24 Feb 2011 09:15

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,

I've tried the rust inhibitor and that seems to work

posted: 20 Apr 2012 14:37

from:

Andy Vines
 
Market Harborough - United Kingdom

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Just reading through the old topics to catch up and spotted this one.

This may be frowned upon, but when I am soldering steel rails I actually use Jenolite Rust treatment as flux.

posted: 20 Apr 2012 17:06

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Andy Vines wrote:
Just reading through the old topics to catch up and spotted this one.

This may be frowned upon, but when I am soldering steel rails I actually use Jenolite Rust treatment as flux.


That's because Jenolite is Phophoric Acid - which is a rust inhibiter.

Alan

posted: 20 Apr 2012 18:04

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
That's because Jenolite is Phophoric Acid - which is a rust inhibiter.
But isn't Green Label flux phosphoric acid?  You only need steel in the same room as Green Label for it to start rusting :(

posted: 20 Apr 2012 19:43

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
Alan Turner wrote:
That's because Jenolite is Phophoric Acid - which is a rust inhibiter.
But isn't Green Label flux phosphoric acid?  You only need steel in the same room as Green Label for it to start rusting :(
Hi Alan, Paul,

Phosphoric acid is not a rust inhibitor, it is a rust treatment. You use it on iron and steel which is already rusty. It converts the rust layer to a hard phosphate coat, protecting the underlying metal.

On bare iron and steel it is mildly corrosive, removing oxides and acting as a soldering flux.

Where there is no existing rust present it needs to be washed off.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 21 Apr 2012 08:42

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Paul Boyd wrote:
Alan Turner wrote:
That's because Jenolite is Phophoric Acid - which is a rust inhibiter.
But isn't Green Label flux phosphoric acid?  You only need steel in the same room as Green Label for it to start rusting :(
Hi Alan, Paul,

Phosphoric acid is not a rust inhibitor, it is a rust treatment. You use it on iron and steel which is already rusty. It converts the rust layer to a hard phosphate coat, protecting the underlying metal.

On bare iron and steel it is mildly corrosive, removing oxides and acting as a soldering flux.

Where there is no existing rust present it needs to be washed off.

regards,

Martin.

Sorry, beg to differ. Phosphoric acid is both a rust treatment and inhibitor. The phophoric acid forms ferric/ferrous phosphate on the surface of the steel from both rust (ferric/ferrous oxide) and iron itself. It shouldn't be washed off as that takes away its protective properties as ferric/ferrous phosphate is soluble.

Phosphate treatments are used extensivly in the automotive industry to provide corrosion barriers although they can't be used as a primary barrier as they are soluble.

Alan


posted: 21 Apr 2012 08:48

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
Alan Turner wrote:
That's because Jenolite is Phophoric Acid - which is a rust inhibiter.
But isn't Green Label flux phosphoric acid?  You only need steel in the same room as Green Label for it to start rusting :(


if it causes steel to rust it can't be.

Alan

posted: 21 Apr 2012 09:08

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Green Label is definitely not phosphoric acid. Red Label is but not much use for steel.
As to the best flux to use - I now use future but that rusts too if left untreated!

Last edited on 10 May 2012 16:06 by Stephen Freeman
posted: 21 Apr 2012 10:04

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
Sorry, beg to differ. Phosphoric acid is both a rust treatment and inhibitor. The phosphoric acid forms ferric/ferrous phosphate on the surface of the steel from both rust (ferric/ferrous oxide) and iron itself. It shouldn't be washed off as that takes away its protective properties as ferric/ferrous phosphate is soluble.
Hi Alan,

Thanks for that.

However I wouldn't put phosphoric acid near clean steel objects because it definitely causes corrosion and pitting. It may not be technically rust (iron oxide) but it is certainly unwanted.

I have some phosphoric acid (I know it is definitely that because it says Phosphoric Acid B.P. on the bottle) which has damaged tools and steel parts in the past when accidentally splashed on them. I don't know the formulation of Carr's Green Label, but the old EAMES 40 Flux was definitely phosphoric acid and had the same effect.

It's a good treatment for actual rust, but I wouldn't use it on bare iron and steel, other than as a soldering flux to be washed off afterwards.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 8 May 2012 13:46

from:

Jerry
 
Mansfield, Notts - United Kingdom

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I have tried not to butt in on this thread, but it's now talking about an area of my professional life.

None or very few of the metal pre-treatments in use in the automotive, industrial or aerospace markets are simple formulations. Although phosphoric acid is one component there are others, some even containing salts of other metals such as zinc.

These are all pre-treatments, which are intended to be painted over. There prime purposes are to prevent flash rusting and improve adhesion.

There are books and papers on the subject, a google search will bring up the references.

Jerry

posted: 14 May 2012 08:37

from:

Woodsworks
 
Whangarei - New Zealand

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Hi All

Carr's Yellow Label is phosphoric acid - this was told to me by the proprietor at the time, Brian Lewis. I don't know what Green label contains.

Regards
Paul Woods
Whangarei NZ

posted: 14 May 2012 14:11

from:

Jerry
 
Mansfield, Notts - United Kingdom

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Woodsworks wrote:
Hi All

Carr's Yellow Label is phosphoric acid - this was told to me by the proprietor at the time, Brian Lewis. I don't know what Green label contains.

Regards
Paul Woods
Whangarei NZ
Phosphoric acid CAS 7664-38-2.
In that case the bottle label does not follow the current EC Regulations (CLP). These do not apply in Australia or New Zeland, which have their own Regulations on hazardous chemicals.

The bottle which I recently obtained carries hazard labelling to the old DPD Regulations which is now incorrect for a single substance (eg phosphoric acid).

I meet these issues every day in the course of my work.

The correct current labelling for phosphoric acid taken from the European Chemicals Agency website
-
Harmonised classification - Annex VI of Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008 (CLP Regulation)
Hazard Class and Category Code(s)Hazard Statement Code(s)Hazard Statement Code(s)Supplementary Hazard Statement Code(s)Pictograms, Signal Word Code(s)Skin Corr. 1BH314

GHS05
Dgr
Skin Corr. 1B; H314: C ≥ 25%
Eye Irrit. 2; H319: 10% ≤ C < 25%
Skin Irrit. 2; H315: 10% ≤ C < 25% Note B
Danger GHS05.pngGHS05.png

As you can see any concentration of acid <= 10% needs the skin irritation warning.
The bottle I have also has the flammable symbol, which indicates it also contains a flammable liquid.

Retail sales require additional work, child-proof closure and tactile labels but there is no derogation for small quantities.

The solution to this sort of problem is either to obtain a correct written statement of the formulation, usually in the form of a safety data sheet which should be,made available free of charge to any one using a hazardous chemical in the course of their work. This must declare all the classified ingredients;
or to have a suitable chemical analysis carried out. Only with this will the composition be apparent, needless to say this could cost £n,000. Normally this forms part of Trading Standards or HSE's enforcement procedures.

I am sorry to be pedantic about this but the communication of safety information along the supply chain is there to protect everybody, even if it is sometimes misinterpreted.

Regards

Jerry

posted: 15 May 2012 08:07

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,
Having just read the latest from RS that they are now selling Flux Off, I think I might give this a try though I'm sceptical it will work for liquid flux, time will tell.

posted: 15 May 2012 08:54

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

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The child-proof closure makes it hard to use. I've suggested they also sell suitable EMPTY bottles, so we can decant the liquids into a bottle that is easy to use. 
Howard.
Jerry wrote:
Retail sales require additional work, child-proof closure and tactile labels but there is no derogation for small quantities.

posted: 15 May 2012 09:35

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Howard wrote:
The child-proof closure makes it hard to use. I've suggested they also sell suitable EMPTY bottles, so we can decant the liquids into a bottle that is easy to use. 
Howard.
When I stay at hotels, I pinch the empty jars that the individual portions of marmalade get served in - it seems such a shame to send them for recycling.  I use these for all kinds of purposes including fluxes - they are flat based and so are hard to knock over.  Now that the flux itself (speaking Carr's here) is coloured you can tell your Green from Yellow.  The lids are not childproof of course so children must be supervised.
Regarding neutralising rinses, I have a jam jar on the bench which is half full of water with about 10% iso propyl alcohol (propan-2-ol) plus half a teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate. I rinse small bits in it or brush it on to bigger things with it using a brush.  And it seems to work.  I keep it tightly lidded of course otherwise the alcohol lasts about 10 minutes, and change it frquently
BIG CAVEAT:-  I don't use Steel Rail so have no idea if this would work for that situation - perhaps someone could experiment - but it does stop nickel silver from going green!!!!!
Best Wishes,
Howard (a different Howard)

posted: 15 May 2012 10:27

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
Regarding neutralising rinses, I have a jam jar on the bench which is half full of water with about 10% iso propyl alcohol (propan-2-ol) plus half a teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate. I rinse small bits in it or brush it on to bigger things with it using a brush.
Hi Howard,

My usual neutralising rinse is Sugar Soap* which is available as a concentrated liquid or as crystals, from DIY places. It's used for cleaning domestic paintwork before redecorating. In addition to being alkaline to neutralise acid flux, it's an effective degreaser to keep parts clean for soldering.

*called TSP in the USA (trisodium phosphate).

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 May 2012 20:34

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
My usual neutralising rinse is Sugar Soap
Martin,Thanks for this - since I happen to be "doing" a bedroom, I have a bottle of this which I shall try out!I assume that you are diluting it as per the destructions?
Best Wishes,Howard.

posted: 15 May 2012 21:22

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
I assume that you are diluting it as per the destructions?
Hi Howard,

Yes. I use the crystals and usually bung in a bit extra for luck, and make it up with hot water and a brisk stir.

When I was making copper-clad pointwork commercially I used to scrub it with the crystals sprinkled directly on a wet nail brush, and rinse off in hot water.

I don't think it's too critical. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 16 May 2012 07:34

from:

Les G
 
 

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Howard wrote: ...BIG CAVEAT:-  I don't use Steel Rail so have no idea if this would work for that situation - perhaps someone could experiment - but it does stop nickel silver from going green...

Speaking of green, I have some second hand copperclad track which has some of the "Green".

What do other folk use to clean it off?

regards

Les

posted: 16 May 2012 07:48

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Les G wrote:
 I have some second hand copperclad track which has some of the "Green". What do other folk use to clean it off?
Hi Les,Who ever built the track did not rinse the flux off - well, we have all made that mistake before now!I use a stainless steel sink cleaner - like Bar Keeper's Friend - and give it a gentle scrub with an old soft toothbrush (laying it on a flat surface first in this case of course).It then needs a pretty good scrub with just plain water otherwise the cleaner will leave a white deposit to replace the green one! Best Wishes,Howard.

posted: 16 May 2012 07:49

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Just a general question.
Why is it that Line Feeds in Post do not appear in the messages as posted??

Regards,

Howard

posted: 16 May 2012 07:52

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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ps. but they do if I use the Quick Reply

As in this case!

Howard.

posted: 16 May 2012 08:09

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
Why is it that Line Feeds in Post do not appear in the messages as posted??
Hi Howard,

You are using Google Chrome?

In Chrome you need to enter 2 blank lines to end up with one blank line between paragraphs.

I recently changed the editor for Chrome, see this topic:

 topic 1934

In Internet Explorer you get an extra blank line whether you wanted it or not.

Don't ask. :?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 16 May 2012 11:03

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Les G wrote:

Speaking of green, I have some second hand copperclad track which has some of the "Green".

What do other folk use to clean it off?
Hi Les

For things like wire droppers soldered to n/s rail, I use a cotton wool bud soaked in meths. Seems to work OK.

Cheers
Nigel

posted: 17 May 2012 08:36

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin,

Yes I am using Chrome - so there we go - and I won't ask...

Many thanks,

Howard

posted: 17 May 2012 08:46

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
JFS wrote:
I assume that you are diluting it as per the destructions?
Hi Howard,

Yes. I use the crystals and usually bung in a bit extra for luck, and make it up with hot water and a brisk stir.

When I was making copper-clad pointwork commercially I used to scrub it with the crystals sprinkled directly on a wet nail brush, and rinse off in hot water.

I don't think it's too critical. :)

regards,

Martin.
Many thanks for this Martin - I shall be trying it out.

Just one think I learnt we I looked into it a bit more.  You mentioned that it is Trisodium Phosphate, and looking into that I see that it is a good flux for hard soldering as it absorbs copper oxides - which all sounds very positive.

However, I also discovered that the environmentalists are discouraging its use due to the phosphorus content and that "substitutes" are now to be found.  Just looking at one big UK suppliers Data Sheets, I see that their Sugar Soap is actually Sodium Alkene Benzene Sulphonate - so not sure is that suits our purpose quite so well.
All of which might mean that it might be best to ask for TSP by name for what we want it for.

Best Wishes,

Howard

PS Have I bottomed the Line Feed thing...???

posted: 17 May 2012 10:42

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
All of which might mean that it might be best to ask for TSP by name for what we want it for.
Hi Howard,

Thanks for that. My pack of Sugar Soap is more than 10 years old, so now I've no idea what it is. :?

TSP seems to be available on Amazon:

TSP powder

from this seller, who seems to have a useful range of chemicals and lab equipment (phosphoric acid, ferric chloride etchant, scalpel blades):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=A1F83G8C2ARO7P&sellerID=A3N402PMA20QHN

regards,

Martin.

posted: 17 May 2012 12:36

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Many thanks Martin,

They do INDEED sell useful stuff - I notice that they sell pyrotechnic grade sulphur and saltpetre (spelt incorrectly). Since I already have some pulverised anthracite, I think I have everything I need to make gumpovder! (I spelt that incorrectly so MI5 don't come after me!)

Best Wishes,

Howard.

posted: 20 May 2012 10:58

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Any thoughts on stuff used for dissolving/removing old wallpaper (Dissoucol)? Any way I am trying it out (I originally it got for removing wallpaper in the end I didn't use it - used the steamer instead).

It certainly seems to clean stuff like brass, nickel silver, steel. I'll see how it goes with stopping rust and report back

Apparently it contains dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid and sodium hydroxide, so fairly alkaline I would think.

Last edited on 20 May 2012 11:37 by Stephen Freeman
posted: 20 May 2012 13:52

from:

Jonathan Wells
 
 

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I have been using this liquid flux for soldering nickel silver to ply and rivet sleepers. It is designed for electronics use so is non corrosive and doesn't need rinsing off so is perfect for for ply and rivet trackwork. There is NO green at all on the track I soldered several weeks ago unlike with the usual Powerflux paste! I got it from Rapid Electronics and here is the webpage: http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/Ecowave-Ec45-Voc-Free-No-Clean-Flux-500ml-85-6650
I admit that I'm not sure it will work for steel but I will solder a test length of steel rail sometime.



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