Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 1386Point blade filing jigs
author remove search highlighting
 
posted: 23 Feb 2011 21:17

from:

Steve Stubbs
 
Taunton, Somerset - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Not precisely Templot so apologies;  but does anyone know if there is a 4mm scale point filing jig available on the market?

I have one for 7mm done by the Scaleseven group, but at the moment I file up 4mm and 2mm point blades by hand.    Just starting a 4mm layout with some 24 turnouts and really don't want to have to file all the blades by hand / eye, and the current budget for this does not run to C&L blades.

Steve



posted: 23 Feb 2011 21:23

from:

polybear
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
They're available from the EMGS - see here (page 10):

http://www.emgs.org/images/stories/Price_List_32Ac_A4.pdf

HTH

Brian

posted: 23 Feb 2011 21:46

from:

Steve Stubbs
 
Taunton, Somerset - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Thanks for the fast reply Brian.

The law of SOD of course means it is about the only society I don't belong to!

thanks
Steve

posted: 24 Feb 2011 19:29

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Just go along to an exhibition that they are attending with the trade stand, or Expo EM at Bracknell in May. You won't need membership then.

Cheers Phil

posted: 24 Feb 2011 23:03

from:

Steve Stubbs
 
Taunton, Somerset - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Great suggestion - thanks

Steve

posted: 4 Mar 2011 21:35

from:

julia
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
polybear wrote:
They're available from the EMGS - see here (page 10):

http://www.emgs.org/images/stories/Price_List_32Ac_A4.pdf

HTH

Brian


This may seem a silly question, but would those jigs work if you were making 16.5mm track rather than 18mm?

J

posted: 5 Mar 2011 13:19

from:

Emma Haywood
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
julia wrote:
polybear wrote:
They're available from the EMGS - see here (page 10):

http://www.emgs.org/images/stories/Price_List_32Ac_A4.pdf

HTH

Brian


This may seem a silly question, but would those jigs work if you were making 16.5mm track rather than 18mm?

J


Yes they would work because the blade filing jigs are for 4mm.

The same way that the 7mm filing jigs from the S7 group work for S7, OSF etc etc etc.

Emma

posted: 26 Mar 2011 17:59

from:

Dan6470
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
polybear wrote:
They're available from the EMGS - see here (page 10):

http://www.emgs.org/images/stories/Price_List_32Ac_A4.pdf

HTH

Brian
Like Steve, I would also be interested in obtaining a set of jigs but since note 4 on page 10 of the EMGS price list indicates that stocks of the "8790 Crossing V Jig 1:5 1:6 1:7 1:8 have been exhausted and no further supplies are planned. " Is there an alternative supplier?

Dan

posted: 26 Mar 2011 18:49

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi,

I got a crossing V jig from the EMGS stores a few weeks back. There was no mention then of there being any shortage of them although I was only interested in them having one for me of course. It works well on code 75 BH rail.

Rob


posted: 26 Mar 2011 20:54

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Chaps,

I don't want to be doing the EMGS or anyone else out of business, but come on, it is not beyond the wit of Man to make your own!

Here are some pics of mine - it is just made up of bits of hardwood and brass and is adaptable to make switch tongues (As Bs and Cs) and vees from 1:1 to 1:11 and every fraction in between. I think the principle is fairly self explanatory from the pics, though there are a few little dodges to enable a curved switch to result. One important point for me is the size of my file - it is a 14" bastard cut. I also have a 14" smooth cut for finishing. I am only showing one bit of rail in the pics, but when doing the BACKS of switch tongues you can do three pairs at a time. Obviously, doing the gauge face they can only be done singly if you want to retain a proper foot to the rail. If any one is interested, I can upload some pics of the thing at work.

Needless to say, before you get to it with the file, you grip the thing in a vice at the appropriate angle!

Firstly the Jig set up for switch tongues:-

1129_261533_190000002.jpg1129_261533_190000002.jpg

1129_261533_190000003.jpg1129_261533_190000003.jpg

Notice that the little brass plate at the back not only grips the rail, but also is a guide for the heel of the file - go steady or you file your gauge away!

Secondly, set up for vees

1129_261533_190000001.jpg1129_261533_190000001.jpg

The brass plate still grips the rail, but the bridge piece guides the file. This can be adjusted to any angle.

1129_261534_190000000.jpg1129_261534_190000000.jpg

Another little "point" is that I leave the rail well over length for switches - not only to give plenty to grip on but also to avoid stabbing your hand on the end of it: instead, it just bends out of the way under your fingers.

Best wishes,

Howard.

posted: 26 Mar 2011 21:14

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
... and I should have said, this is for 4mm.

Some of the products here...

topic 1433 - message 8932


Howard

posted: 26 Mar 2011 22:53

from:

phileakins
 
Swanage - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
JFS wrote:
If any one is interested, I can upload some pics of the thing at work.

Howard.

Yes please Howard - particularly how you keep the foot of the gauge face of the switch.

I am a bit concerned with the use of brass though.  Your pictures show that it is wearing away and however careful you are with a file, it will continue.  Have you tried steel and hardening it?

Phil

posted: 26 Mar 2011 23:21

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Phil,

I suppose if I were into mass production, then hardened steel would be the way, but I only knocked it up to do a couple of layouts worth! In use, you don't need to put any pressure on the heel of the file. When it does wear, the first move is to turn the brass clamp strip through 180 degrees, then to turn it over and repeat the process - that should keep me going!!! After which, I can make a new clamp strip... You don't really get any wear at the pointy end as the file only touches the rail there. I will try to post a few pics over the next couple of days.

Howard.

posted: 27 Mar 2011 15:16

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hello Chaps,

Just a quick update showing how I do Switch Tongues. First a confession, these pics show the use of a little clamp to hold the toe of the tongue: well, I only made it about half an hour ago. Previously, I always used my thumb for this job! In these health and safety conscious days, I thought the pics should show a proper job! (It took me about 10 minutes to make the clamp...)

Firstly, filing the backs of the tongues...

Here are a single pair of rails clamped in the jig - notice that they are "handed" (foot to foot or head to head) and that the extent of the "planing" has been marked with a felt pen (off the Template)

1129_270910_280000000.jpg1129_270910_280000000.jpg

The jig has been set with the clamp in the "B" position

1129_270910_280000001.jpg1129_270910_280000001.jpg

After a few strokes with the bastard cut file, followed by the smooth cut file followed by a rub with 600 grit wet or dry wrapped over the smooth file we end up here

1129_270910_290000003.jpg1129_270910_290000003.jpg

You can see the the metal removal extends just up to the pen mark and that the rail is down to about the mid-way line at the rail tip.

Now for the Guage Faces - here you see my nifty little clamp...

Turn the rail over and re-clamp it at the heel end, the toe end clamp (previously my thumb) just clamps the tip of the switch and only covers the foot of the rail.

1129_270910_290000002.jpg1129_270910_290000002.jpg

In use, we use the file with its Safe Edge against the clamp

1129_270910_300000004.jpg1129_270910_300000004.jpg

It is quite hard to distinguish the rail from the jig in this pic - locate the rail from the red felt pen mark on the rail which again marks the extent of the metal requiring to be removed

1129_270913_070000000.jpg1129_270913_070000000.jpg

Here is the result after a few strokes with the big file - note that again the metal removal extends just into the red mark. When doing the guage face, I don't make use of any guide for the heel end of the file - the brass clamp is too low of course, I have never found this to be a problem, but others could modify the design to deal with this.

Note that this is a STRAIGHT CUT switch: for a curved switch, I trap a scrap of etch waste under the tongue to pack up its middle - crude but effective!

When all that is done, the rail will be "planed" but will taper equally on both sides - to turn it into a switch tongue requires of course that the rail be bent so that the gauge face is straight

You can see that the other tongue is done the same way but obviously using the other side of the jig (you can see the hole for this in the pic).
From this stage, the tongues require a final polish and deburring on the rail top and foot IMPORTANT use only a bit of fine wet or dry for this - NEVER take a file to the top or bottom of a rail!

Here's one I did earlier - I reckon it took less than 10 minutes to do these...

1129_271009_570000000.jpg1129_271009_570000000.jpg

Just one quick thing - a number of people have asked about wear of the jig - I have never found this an issue for the penny numbers of switches we are making (15 pairs for my current opus) A far bigger issue for this jig is that the clamps use wood screws and these need re-plugging from time to time - those who want to take more than half an hour to make their version might resort to nuts and bolts or screws tapped into the brass base strip.

Hope that helps a bit!

Howard.

posted: 27 Mar 2011 18:23

from:

Dan6470
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Excellent stuff Howard,

Your jigs together with the description of how to use them is very interesting however I have a few questions and wasn't all together sure about asking them for fear of looking a bit daft but what the heck !! Here we go..... You say its not rocket science but its not particularly clear to me probably due to my knowledge of the subject being quite low. To-date I've built, perhaps that should that be attempted to build, one SMP turnout - not a very good result, future construction can only improve ... hopefully:?



1. The brass clamp is in position 'B', so I assume that there are other positions for the type of turnout under construction, A & C? Although I'm not quite sure of the differences between say an A7 turnout and a B7, to date I haven't learnt what the A,B and C refer to .. perhaps somebody can point me towards an explanation. Please confirm if there is an A and C position.

2. For the Vees you have a bridge piece to guide the file, This can be adjusted to any angle! Is this adjustment of the angle achieved by moving the bridge piece according to the numbers on the side of the jig, 4 through 10?

3. What height is the bridge piece?

4. Do you have a drawing of the jig with dimensions that you would be willing to share in order for myself and others to copy. I know its a little cheeky but saves on the "not rocket science" calculations.

Thanks
Dan
Last edited on 27 Mar 2011 18:25 by Dan6470
posted: 27 Mar 2011 19:09

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Dan,

All questions are good questions!

In response:-
1. Yes there are A, B and C positions. the effect of moving the brass piece closer to the sharp end is to make the filing angle less acute, hence the "C" position is furthest to the back and the "A" position closest to the front - you can see the spare holes in the pics. I am assuming a basic knowledge of how track is described. To help you with this, I suggest you study the "Vee crossing options" and "Switch options" in Templot's "template" menu. Have a go at creating templates for all of the options and see how the geometry changes. "A" relates to the switch and "7" is the crossing angle- try building an A7 and B7 in Templot and see what happens.

2. In terms of the vee, yes, by sliding the bridge piece along, again the filing angle changes. the numbers along the side indicate the crossing angles but you can set the bridge anywhere, for example if you need a 1:4 1/4.

3. The height of the bridge piece - and all the other dimensions - is not actually that critical, but if you think about how the crossing angle is worked out ie "1 in x" then if the height is say, 10mm above the base, then the marks along the side will be 10mm apart (in principle)

4. I am happy to provide a drawing BUT I would point out that my dimensions are entirely developed from the materials to hand - thus, the thickness of the bit of brass I found in my scrap box dictated the design of the whole thing. What I would therefore prefer to do is to illustrate the rocket science a bit - not least because those more knowledgeable than myself can put me right! I am having my tea now, but perhaps this evening, I will try to knock up a sketch showing the principles.

One thing I must have said a thousand times in this forum is that PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT - do not be afraid of making scrap!!! I knocked up this jig just a few weeks ago because I was starting a new layout and wanted to save a bit of time and beacuse I have become a bit (no, a lot) obsesive about accurate track. But for the past forty years I managed by holding the rail on the bench with my fingers!

In the privacy of your own workshop, just HAVE GO! Grab a bit of rail and a file and let rip - don't worry if the first fifty go in the scrap - each one will be a bit better than the one before and you don't have to use any that you don't like. Just print yourself a Templot Template and you wil be able to see where they are right or wrong!

Hope that helps,

Howard

posted: 27 Mar 2011 19:22

from:

phileakins
 
Swanage - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Cheers Howard - that helps a lot.

I can spend anything up to an hour on a pair of blades and have resorted to riffler files for the gauge face on the basis that I won't rip my thumb nail to pieces, again.

Lots of food for thought ..... :D

Phil

posted: 27 Mar 2011 20:21

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Phil,

Buy a file with a "Safe Edge" - they are thumb-friendly! You won't find them in B&Q, find a local specialist tool shop (Greaves, Buck and Hickman etc) or go online and find yourself a mail order supplier. One dodge I used to use for the GF is to hold the rail down with my thumb towards the heel (out of harms way) and to protect the foot with the head of a countersunk woodscrew trapped under my finger.

Howard

posted: 28 Mar 2011 09:43

from:

Dan6470
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Howard,

Thanks for getting back to me.

JFS wrote: 
Yes there are A, B and C positions. the effect of moving the brass piece closer to the sharp end is to make the filing angle less acute, hence the "C" position is furthest to the back and the "A" position closest to the front - you can see the spare holes in the pics. I am assuming a basic knowledge of how track is described. To help you with this, I suggest you study the "Vee crossing options" and "Switch options" in Templot's "template" menu. Have a go at creating templates for all of the options and see how the geometry changes. "A" relates to the switch and "7" is the crossing angle- try building an A7 and B7 in Templot and see what happens.
Yes of course I must purchase a copy of templot but in the first instance I purchased a SMP kit to see whether I could actually build a turnout and secondly to see if it is something that I will derive pleasure from. There would be little point to purchasing a software that produces beautiful templates if your not going to actually construct them. As I mentioned in my earlier post, my first attempt with the SMP kit was a failure, don't laugh but I'd used the track gauges incorrectly so my 00 turnout is almost TT gauge. Also, I'd made it harder on myself by substituting Peco flat bottom code 100 for the supplied bullhead. I had the idea of connecting the turnout when completed to some Peco track that I've had kicking about since childhood days. You'll recognise that at forty thirteen I'm relatively new to model railways. I'm not in any particular hurry to get track down and trains running but I have it in mind to build my own track and in this regard need to increase my knowledge base. I think I'm okay with the principles behind the terminology for say a  1:6, 1:7 or 1:8. But the A,B and C prefix causes some confusion. I acknowledge that a 'B' switch is larger than an 'A' switch and likewise a 'C' is larger than a 'B', but I don't understand the principles behind this. How are they derived? 

JFS wrote:
I am happy to provide a drawing BUT I would point out that my dimensions are entirely developed from the materials to hand - thus, the thickness of the bit of brass I found in my scrap box dictated the design of the whole thing. What I would therefore prefer to do is to illustrate the rocket science a bit - not least because those more knowledgeable than myself can put me right! I am having my tea now, but perhaps this evening, I will try to knock up a sketch showing the principle.
I had assumed that the materials had been chosen to fit the design rather than the design fitting the materials. This will of course make a difference, it is unlikely that I will have exactly the same materials to hand as you have, so the principles behind the design would be most welcome. The brass plate is one area that I don't fully understand. I had assumed that the thickness of the brass plate would resolve the angle to file the switch blades but from your photographs you have marked the switch blade with a felt pen and appear to be filing by eye rather than using the brass plate to gain the angle, felt pen mark to the rail web = the angle ...... or am I misunderstanding?

Once again thank you for your response and best regards.
Dan
Last edited on 28 Mar 2011 09:44 by Dan6470
posted: 28 Mar 2011 09:55

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
... no Dan, you were right, the brass does guide the back of the file and is set to the achieve the correct angle. However, you have to know when you have filed enough away and it is tricky to see if you have filed to about half way through, but you can easily see the progress of filing along the length of the rail.

Hope that clarifies.

Howard.

posted: 28 Mar 2011 14:41

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Interesting stuff. Just shows that there are many approaches to the same problem. Like Howard in his earlier days, I still use the basic approach; rail held flat with one hand on a firm flat surface (usually GW models crossing jig), switch tip at edge of surface, and attack it with any reasonable file to hand, until I get something similar to the switch profile on the template. Works fine; you don't necessarily need any sophisticated tools or jigs. Having said that, if I saw the need for a lot of turnouts coming up, I could be interested in the odd jig.

posted: 4 Apr 2011 20:13

from:

allanferguson
 
Fife - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
 In  light  of  recent  discussion  regarding  the  filing  of  crossing  vees  I  thought  I  might  add  my  tuppenceworth.  Attached  is  part  of  a  piece  I  wrote  for  our  own  group  newsletter  a  while  ago.  I'm  sorry,  but  I  don't  know  how  to  convert  it  into  a  document  on  here.

 

Allan  F
Attachment: attach_1035_1386_VEES.doc 846

posted: 21 Aug 2013 09:25

from:

CoBo
 
North Of The Trent (just) - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
allanferguson wrote:
 In  light  of  recent  discussion  regarding  the  filing  of  crossing  vees  I  thought  I  might  add  my  tuppenceworth.  Attached  is  part  of  a  piece  I  wrote  for  our  own  group  newsletter  a  while  ago.  I'm  sorry, 
Allan  F
Very useful Allan - thanks for sharing.
Mike

posted: 8 Jan 2019 21:50

from:

Martin Carew
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
I am sure it isn't rocket science but how can I adapt this jig for Flat Bottom rail? Specifically Code 82 in 00 gauge?
JFS wrote:
Hello Chaps,

Just a quick update showing how I do Switch Tongues. First a confession, these pics show the use of a little clamp to hold the toe of the tongue: well, I only made it about half an hour ago. Previously, I always used my thumb for this job! In these health and safety conscious days, I thought the pics should show a proper job! (It took me about 10 minutes to make the clamp...)

Firstly, filing the backs of the tongues...

Here are a single pair of rails clamped in the jig - notice that they are "handed" (foot to foot or head to head) and that the extent of the "planing" has been marked with a felt pen (off the Template)

1129_270910_280000000.jpg1129_270910_280000000.jpg

The jig has been set with the clamp in the "B" position

1129_270910_280000001.jpg1129_270910_280000001.jpg

After a few strokes with the bastard cut file, followed by the smooth cut file followed by a rub with 600 grit wet or dry wrapped over the smooth file we end up here

1129_270910_290000003.jpg1129_270910_290000003.jpg

You can see the the metal removal extends just up to the pen mark and that the rail is down to about the mid-way line at the rail tip.

Now for the Guage Faces - here you see my nifty little clamp...

Turn the rail over and re-clamp it at the heel end, the toe end clamp (previously my thumb) just clamps the tip of the switch and only covers the foot of the rail.

1129_270910_290000002.jpg1129_270910_290000002.jpg

In use, we use the file with its Safe Edge against the clamp

1129_270910_300000004.jpg1129_270910_300000004.jpg

It is quite hard to distinguish the rail from the jig in this pic - locate the rail from the red felt pen mark on the rail which again marks the extent of the metal requiring to be removed

1129_270913_070000000.jpg1129_270913_070000000.jpg

Here is the result after a few strokes with the big file - note that again the metal removal extends just into the red mark. When doing the guage face, I don't make use of any guide for the heel end of the file - the brass clamp is too low of course, I have never found this to be a problem, but others could modify the design to deal with this.

Note that this is a STRAIGHT CUT switch: for a curved switch, I trap a scrap of etch waste under the tongue to pack up its middle - crude but effective!

When all that is done, the rail will be "planed" but will taper equally on both sides - to turn it into a switch tongue requires of course that the rail be bent so that the gauge face is straight

You can see that the other tongue is done the same way but obviously using the other side of the jig (you can see the hole for this in the pic).
From this stage, the tongues require a final polish and deburring on the rail top and foot IMPORTANT use only a bit of fine wet or dry for this - NEVER take a file to the top or bottom of a rail!

Here's one I did earlier - I reckon it took less than 10 minutes to do these...

1129_271009_570000000.jpg1129_271009_570000000.jpg

Just one quick thing - a number of people have asked about wear of the jig - I have never found this an issue for the penny numbers of switches we are making (15 pairs for my current opus) A far bigger issue for this jig is that the clamps use wood screws and these need re-plugging from time to time - those who want to take more than half an hour to make their version might resort to nuts and bolts or screws tapped into the brass base strip.

Hope that helps a bit!

Howard.

Last edited on 8 Jan 2019 21:51 by Martin Carew
posted: 10 Jan 2019 08:33

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Unlike the instructions from either the P4 or EM gauge societies I have read where they suggest filing on a flexible sheet like Formica, I have found the opposite easier, I use a stiff steel bar to file on and with flatbottom rail Clamping the to it using the foot against the edge

Also the use of sharp files 10". 6" and needle

posted: 11 Jan 2019 07:38

from:

Martin Carew
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Thanks Hayfield - I have some Code 83 on the way from Microengineering so will give it a go. I am thinking about using the jig design with the same fittings but building it in such a way that the rail will sit flat across the edge of the brass strips. I will probably use steel though as I have a lot of it around from various welding jobs.


posted: 11 Jan 2019 12:04

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
My bought filing jigs are from hardened steel, where as my steel filing bar I guess is not hardened, its 3 mm thick by 25 mm wide, 305 mm long. 
 I find its far easier to use if the bar and the rail is clamped down do the bench. As its so much easier to file accurately with both hands free, with a slot in the bar it would be even easier but I use flatbottom rail so infrequently its not worth the bother to make anything more substantial
Last edited on 11 Jan 2019 12:07 by Hayfield
posted: 11 Jan 2019 12:34

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
In the past I've used a bit of 2 x 1 wood and bullhead rail is placed flat on it at the end and the blade is filed using a 10" second cut file. For flatbottom rail, I cut a slot in the wood using a razor saw to take the base. I can mark off the length of the planing with a pencil mark on the wood. For holding the wood, I screwed a small piece of wood on the inderside to act as a stop against the work bench edge and the other end on the wood was in my midriff. The rail was held using a toolmaker's clamp. This worked well and when the end of the wood got worn down by the filing, cut it off, or turn the wood over and shift the stop block.

I have to confess that I have now set up my CNC machine to do blades and crossing rails so this is a bit of "do as I say not do as I do". :)

Jim.
Last edited on 11 Jan 2019 12:35 by Jim Guthrie
posted: 11 Jan 2019 22:55

from:

Martin Carew
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Jim - the CNC machine sounds interesting and something I have been looking at. Have you any info for your machine and how you make the blades?

posted: 12 Jan 2019 12:00

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Carew wrote:
Jim - the CNC machine sounds interesting and something I have been looking at. Have you any info for your machine and how you make the blades?


Martin,

I first made up a holder for the rail - here's the one I did for Ciff Barkers 1:32 bullhead rail

25_120616_340000000.jpg25_120616_340000000.jpg

It was made from alloy with a step on the front face to support the rail.

25_120618_120000000.jpg25_120618_120000000.jpg

The rail is clamped to the front of the jig with toolmakers clamps and the cutter has started the main machining of the planed face of the blade.

25_120620_050000000.jpg25_120620_050000000.jpg

Here the cutter is just over half way down the planed face.     The planing is taken to the centre of the rail section so that half of the web thickness will be left.

25_120622_040000000.jpg25_120622_040000000.jpg

And a bit of a jump to show five pairs of left and right planed blades.     What I didn't show was the planing of the rail head only on the other side of the rail.  That was the reason for the cutout on the jig to allow the cutter access to the other side of the rail head.   The rail head was tapered to be flush with the web face at the blade tip such that half of the web width remains to provide a stronger end to the blade.

The next operation is to cut off the excess rail with my Xuron cutters then bend the rail at the start of the taper to get a straight inner face and also re-instate the inner radius of the rail head on the planing and finish off the tip of the blade with a fine file.

I also did the same operation with Code 82 FB for my US S scale layout

25_120631_380000000.jpg25_120631_380000000.jpg

Here the jig had an alloy base with a brass strip screwed to it to provide a face to hold the rail.  The lower edge of the strip was relieved to allow for the flat bottom base.

25_120633_550000000.jpg25_120633_550000000.jpg

Here the main planed face is being cut with the depth of cut at the end being to the rail centre line to leave half web thickness at the end.    The rail head planing will be done on the other side.

25_120630_460000000.jpg25_120630_460000000.jpg

And here are the resulting blades with their stock rails - the stock rails were filed by hand.  I could have machined them but it was quicker just to file them. :D

The excess rail at the tip end is necessary to hold the rail firm when cutting and even then it is advisable to work with fairly gentle feeds and speeds.    If I wanted to avoid this wastage I dare say I could leave the rail as a whole length and the cut part at the blade tip becomes the end of the next blade but my workspace is a bit restricted around the milling machine and having most of a three foot length of rail waving about in the breeze off the table is not really a possibility.

One problem I did find was trying to do this with Cliff Barker's stainless steel rail.  I suspect that the rail was work hardening under the light cuts and it became quite a fight to get anything good.  So I swapped on to his nickel silver rail and all was well.

I must say I found it really nice to have point blades all  cut properly.  It used to be a feature of previous tracklaying of mine that everything used to be completed except the point blades then I would grit my teeth and sit down and file the lot in one go. :D

Jim.
Attachment: attach_2797_1386_garden-X121.jpg 995

posted: 12 Jan 2019 12:38

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Jim,

Many thanks for that -- takes me back to the 1970s/80s when I was manufacturing point blades commercially.

Just one minor point -- for every pair of blades there is usually a pair of check rails. If you made the clamped toe end of the rail a bit longer, you wouldn't be wasting any rail when you cut it off.

Space for someone to mention catch points and double slips:




but those check rails go into the diamond-crossings. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 12 Jan 2019 12:50

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
Just one minor point -- for every pair of blades there is usually a pair of check rails. If you made the clamped toe end of the rail a bit longer, you wouldn't be wasting any rail when you cut it off.


Martin,

In the case of the 1:32 scale pointwork,  that would be a sensible idea to minimise waste :D   But in my S scale pointwork I was using self guarding frogs - so no checkrails. :D

25_120749_440000000.jpg25_120749_440000000.jpg

Jim.
Last edited on 12 Jan 2019 12:50 by Jim Guthrie
posted: 12 Jan 2019 12:59

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Jim Guthrie wrote:
In the case of the 1:32 scale pointwork,  that would be a sensible idea to minimise waste :D   But in my S scale pointwork I was using self guarding frogs - so no checkrails. :D
Hi Jim,

There is always one. :)

I think that is the first time I have seen functional self-guarding frogs modelled. Do they work well?

For anyone asking, the reason they are not used in the UK is that they require all wheels to be the same width, from large locos down to the smallest wagon. Which is not the case in the UK.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 12 Jan 2019 16:20

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
I think that is the first time I have seen functional self-guarding frogs modelled. Do they work well?
Martin,

They work very well.  They are designed to work with Code 110 wheels which is the normal NMRA S scale wheel.  But some of the locomotive wheels were a bit wider,  so have had a visit to the lathe.  :D

US modelers had suggested that they should only be used at low speed and that's the norm on my switching layout,  but I've had a few tries at higher speeds and they seem to work quite well.

Jim.

posted: 12 Jan 2019 22:33

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hello,
I always find it fascinating when people with similar skills get interacting with each other.
trustytrev.:)

posted: 13 Jan 2019 00:09

from:

Andrew Barrowman
 
USA

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Jim Guthrie wrote: 
I was using self guarding frogs - so no checkrails. :D

Jim.
I was waiting for a train at Hoboken the first time I saw them. It took a while before I understood how they worked :)

This is my "vise helper" for FB rail. It drops into my bench vise which squeezes the plates together to grip the rail. The alignment pins are 1/8th inch piano wire. The notches have different depths to allow for the FB foot. This ugly brute lets me really lean on the file. It doesn't take a lot of strokes.

You can just about see a slot cut with a piercing saw. I use it to cut nice square ends on the rails.

2983_121857_410000000.jpg2983_121857_410000000.jpg

posted: 7 Jan 2020 19:04

from:

Martin Carew
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Jim,
Wondering what make/brand/model your CNC is for rails? I’ve been hand filing with varying degrees of success. I think I need to work on the amount of pressure I put on the files and also source better quality files but being British in Canada, there is a language barrier when it comes to tools.... spanner - wrench etc!

Jim Guthrie wrote:
Martin Carew wrote:
Jim - the CNC machine sounds interesting and something I have been looking at. Have you any info for your machine and how you make the blades?


Martin,

I first made up a holder for the rail - here's the one I did for Ciff Barkers 1:32 bullhead rail

25_120616_340000000.jpg25_120616_340000000.jpg

It was made from alloy with a step on the front face to support the rail.

25_120618_120000000.jpg25_120618_120000000.jpg

The rail is clamped to the front of the jig with toolmakers clamps and the cutter has started the main machining of the planed face of the blade.

25_120620_050000000.jpg25_120620_050000000.jpg

Here the cutter is just over half way down the planed face.     The planing is taken to the centre of the rail section so that half of the web thickness will be left.

25_120622_040000000.jpg25_120622_040000000.jpg

And a bit of a jump to show five pairs of left and right planed blades.     What I didn't show was the planing of the rail head only on the other side of the rail.  That was the reason for the cutout on the jig to allow the cutter access to the other side of the rail head.   The rail head was tapered to be flush with the web face at the blade tip such that half of the web width remains to provide a stronger end to the blade.

The next operation is to cut off the excess rail with my Xuron cutters then bend the rail at the start of the taper to get a straight inner face and also re-instate the inner radius of the rail head on the planing and finish off the tip of the blade with a fine file.

I also did the same operation with Code 82 FB for my US S scale layout

25_120631_380000000.jpg25_120631_380000000.jpg

Here the jig had an alloy base with a brass strip screwed to it to provide a face to hold the rail.  The lower edge of the strip was relieved to allow for the flat bottom base.

25_120633_550000000.jpg25_120633_550000000.jpg

Here the main planed face is being cut with the depth of cut at the end being to the rail centre line to leave half web thickness at the end.    The rail head planing will be done on the other side.

25_120630_460000000.jpg25_120630_460000000.jpg

And here are the resulting blades with their stock rails - the stock rails were filed by hand.  I could have machined them but it was quicker just to file them. :D

The excess rail at the tip end is necessary to hold the rail firm when cutting and even then it is advisable to work with fairly gentle feeds and speeds.    If I wanted to avoid this wastage I dare say I could leave the rail as a whole length and the cut part at the blade tip becomes the end of the next blade but my workspace is a bit restricted around the milling machine and having most of a three foot length of rail waving about in the breeze off the table is not really a possibility.

One problem I did find was trying to do this with Cliff Barker's stainless steel rail.  I suspect that the rail was work hardening under the light cuts and it became quite a fight to get anything good.  So I swapped on to his nickel silver rail and all was well.

I must say I found it really nice to have point blades all  cut properly.  It used to be a feature of previous tracklaying of mine that everything used to be completed except the point blades then I would grit my teeth and sit down and file the lot in one go. :D

Jim.

Last edited on 7 Jan 2020 20:05 by Martin Carew
posted: 7 Jan 2020 23:05

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Carew wrote:
Hi Jim,
Wondering what make/brand/model your CNC is for rails? I’ve been hand filing with varying degrees of success. I think I need to work on the amount of pressure I put on the files and also source better quality files but being British in Canada, there is a language barrier when it comes to tools.... spanner - wrench etc

Martin,

The CNC machine I use is a Seig KX1.   It's not a very large machine and it handles cutting switch blades in S scale and 1:32 scale quite easily provided it's not stainless steel. :D   I would think that even smaller mills like the Sherline would also cope quite well,  certainly for the smaller scales.

When doing point blades by hand,  I clamp the rail on a bit of 2" x 1" timber with the blade part right at the end,  then file towards the end.   The wood supports the rail and gives way under the file when you are getting near to the sharpest end of the blade.  Eventually the end of the bit of wood gets pretty won with the file action,  so you just cut a bit off to get back to a square end.  To handle flat bottom rail you need to cut a slot in the wood to accommodate the base of the rail.  For the finer bases on smaller scale rail,  a cut with a Stanley knife might do.  For larger scale rail the cut can be made with a razor saw blade,  junior hacksaw blade or tenon saw depending on the size of the rail.

For files I tend to use eight or ten inch second cut flat files.  I find that I can be more accurate with the bigger files.   But I make sure I get good ones.   Some of the files sold in DIY shops these days are worse than useless and it is worth searching around for a make which is known to be good.

Jim.

posted: 8 Jan 2020 00:12

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hello Jim,

I remember the KX1 - they used to sell them at Arc Euro in Leicestershire along with the Seig range of lathes ( which I did buy one of ). Good people to deal with :) The KX1 was way too much money for my needs though.

The wood filing 'jig' for point blades works for me although I tend to mess up on 50% of them. I do have the EMGS/Scalefour blade jigs for BH and the Fast Tracks US versions for FB rail but the bendy wood works well enough.

As an engineering type do you know any sources of thin parting tools for lathe work ? I am talking of 0.7 to 1mm thick ones. A chap I help out near me does model boats in all scales and turning small brass fittings for him is not great with my home made attempts with cut-up saw blades. The cutting depth isn't much - maybe 2mm maximum. Any ideas ? Bringing the post back to a railway related theme - imagine making roller track gauges to fit rail with a 0.7mm head width and cutting the slots.

Happy New Year.
Rob


posted: 8 Jan 2020 00:31

from:

Andrew Barrowman
 
USA

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Rob Manchester wrote:
As an engineering type do you know any sources of thin parting tools for lathe work ? I am talking of 0.7 to 1mm thick ones. A chap I help out near me does model boats in all scales and turning small brass fittings for him is not great with my home made attempts with cut-up saw blades. The cutting depth isn't much - maybe 2mm maximum. Any ideas ? Bringing the post back to a railway related theme - imagine making roller track gauges to fit rail with a 0.7mm head width and cutting the slots.

Hi Rob,

You can always make them. This one is 1 mm wide ground from 1/4 inch square HSS. The final dimension is set by polishing with a diamond "stone" and a lot of checking with a micrometer.

Cheers,
Andy

2983_071922_480000000.jpg2983_071922_480000000.jpg


posted: 8 Jan 2020 08:33

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Rob Manchester wrote:
As an engineering type do you know any sources of thin parting tools for lathe work ? I am talking of 0.7 to 1mm thick ones. A chap I help out near me does model boats in all scales and turning small brass fittings for him is not great with my home made attempts with cut-up saw blades. The cutting depth isn't much - maybe 2mm maximum. Any ideas ? Bringing the post back to a railway related theme - imagine making roller track gauges to fit rail with a 0.7mm head width and cutting the slots.

Rob,

You could do as Andrew suggests using a grinding wheel and start off from a parting tool since it's a lot of metal to remove from a HSS blank.

Or another possibility is to use a grooving tool such as is shown on Page 483 of the MSC catalogue.

http://edition.pagesuite.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&pubid=9c3eabd2-e3ba-4a9f-8bd3-aa6475bd6e37

You can go to the page quickly using the Page Number section on the top bar and the zoom control is there on the left of the bar,  although you can do a quick zoom in and out using double click.

Jim.

posted: 8 Jan 2020 18:09

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Andrew/Jim,

Thanks for the pics and suggestion ( Andrew ) and the catalogue link ( Jim ). There is some great stuff in the catalogue to spend my money on....

I will try grinding some and see how I get on.

Rob


posted: 8 Jan 2020 19:01

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Rob Manchester wrote:
I will try grinding some and see how I get on.
Hi Rob,

For grinding of lathe tools and milling cutters ideally you need a cup grinding wheel in soft white aluminium oxide:

125-mm-x-40-mm-straight-cup-grinding-wheels-242-p[ekm]230x224[ekm].jpg125-mm-x-40-mm-straight-cup-grinding-wheels-242-p[ekm]230x224[ekm].jpg

 http://www.abtec4abrasives.com/125-mm-x-40-mm-straight-cup-grinding-wheels-242-p.asp

Others suppliers are available -- and prices. :)

Soft white tool-grinding wheels run much cooler than the usual grey wheel found on bench grinders. 

Grinding takes place on the top face of the cup wall only, don't use the sides. When it is worn you can dress it back to a flat face and square corner using a dressing tool. Either using a hand tool (which are pretty useless and never work for me), or preferably in a proper cutter grinder:

dressing-tools-1095-c[ekm]200x199[ekm].jpgdressing-tools-1095-c[ekm]200x199[ekm].jpg

In the absence of one of those you can improvise by mounting the wheel in the lathe, with a diamond dressing tool mounted on the top-slide. You will need the top speed on the lathe, and take it very slowly.

 http://www.abtec4abrasives.com/dressing-tools-for-grinding-wheels-873-c.asp

(also p.822 in Jim's MSC catalogue).

Protect the lathe bed from grinding dust, and wear GOGGLES, and keep everyone else well clear.

cheers,

Martin.

p.s did I mention GOGGLES?

posted: 8 Jan 2020 19:28

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Rob Manchester wrote:
Thanks for the pics and suggestion ( Andrew ) and the catalogue link ( Jim ). There is some great stuff in the catalogue to spend my money on....

Rob,

The prices are a bit higher than you might be used to on other sites selling cheap Far Eastern products but the quality is guaranteed to be good.

Jim.

posted: 8 Jan 2020 20:30

from:

Andrew Barrowman
 
USA

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Rob Manchester wrote:
Hi Andrew/Jim,

Thanks for the pics and suggestion ( Andrew ) and the catalogue link ( Jim ). There is some great stuff in the catalogue to spend my money on....

I will try grinding some and see how I get on.

Rob
Hi Rob,
I should probably get the sort of wheel that Martin suggests. I've been making-do with a coarse wheel and a finer grit wheel on the bench grinder, frequently dipping the blank into cold water.

BTW, I lied. I thought the tool in my pic was 39 thou (approx. 1 mm). It's actually 29 thou. I think the narrowest tool I've ever made was around 10 thou.

Don't forget the safety specs or a face shield!

Cheers,
Andy

posted: 8 Jan 2020 21:40

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Thanks Martin,

Will go and search out one of those wheels. They seem to be available in grits from 40 to 100 depending where you look. Thanks for the safety advice - best tuck my tie into my shirt, chop off the pony tail and remove the bangles too :D

Rob

P.S. Andrew - those are very thin tools. 0.029" would be about right for HO sizes of bullhead track gauges I guess.




Templot Club > Forums > Templot talk > Point blade filing jigs
about Templot Club

Templot Companion - User Guide - A-Z Index Templot Explained for beginners Please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors.
indexing link for search engines

back to top of page


Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so.
The small print: All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted. The owner of this web site is not responsible for any content displayed here other than his own contributions. The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason. Problems with this web site? Contact webmaster@templot.com.   This web site uses cookies: click for information.  
© 2020  

Powered by UltraBB - © 2009 Data 1 Systems