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             Rating                           What standard to use for small O gauge layout ??
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 27 Feb 2011 21:50
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from:
Rob Manchester
 

 

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Hello,

I have read much on the Templot Club, and other sites about the various track standards in use for what we all nominally call O gauge. I have been asked to build a small O gauge layout.

I would prefer a smaller flangeway and checkrail figure than standard 32mm gives for better running and greater visual appeal.
I will only be using small locos( Agenoria kits ) and short 4 wheel stock ( 1930's period )
I will probably only use Slaters wheels on locos and stock.
I want to be able to build turnouts down to A4 if possible but will use gentler ones if I can fit them in.
I want to be able to buy the required gauges to make the track.
I will be buying C&L components.

Comments please. :?

Rob


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2nd message | this message only posted: 27 Feb 2011 22:13
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Rob,

The best advice seems to be to ignore both 0-XF and 0-SF and choose between 0-MF and S7.



0-MF (31.5mm gauge, 1.5mm flangeway) accepts all existing G0G-Fine "industry-standard" wheels easily, and gives much improved running over the original G0G-F 32.0mm standard. The narrower flangeways look much better too.

For some track pics of a large layout using 0-MF, see:

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/253/entry-1422-heyside-trackwork/

Richard is a member of this parish, see:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=911&forum_id=12&jump_to=5265#p5256

I'm sure he would be happy to comment on his experience of 0-MF if you contact him here or via RMweb.

However, I'm not sure who is currently supplying track gauge tools for 0-MF.



S7 (33mm gauge) is the exact-scale option with its own wheels for those who want that instead. That's the 7mm equivalent of P4 with similar restrictions -- requiring springing/compensation, easier curves, and no interchange with existing stock having G0G-Fine "industry-standard" wheels. But it does look good.  :)



regards,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 28 Feb 2011 08:11
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from:
mike47j
 

 

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On the 7mm yahoo group it was  mentioned recently that Roxey do the 31.5mm gauges, but its not on the web site, so you have to ask.

As you probably found, C&L do 31 and 32mm gauges.

Mike Johnson

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4th message | this message only posted: 28 Feb 2011 12:16
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from:
Richard Lambert
 

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: I would prefer a smaller flangeway and checkrail figure than standard 32mm gives for better running and greater visual appeal.
I will only be using small locos (Agenoria kits) and short 4 wheel stock (1930s period )
I will probably only use Slater's wheels on locos and stock.
I want to be able to build turnouts down to A4 if possible but will use gentler ones if I can fit them in.
I want to be able to buy the required gauges to make the track.
I will be buying C&L components.
Hi Rob

As Martin has said, I have some experience of building and running a layout with 31.5 mm pointwork.

I am a firm convert to the advantages over 32mm. The extra .5 mm in gauge sounds nothing, but in narrowed gaps it is huge, particularly compared to say the PECO product. In fact I built a PECO geometry 31.5mm turnout just to compare. It's shown here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=40978

about 2/3 way down the page.

The running is very much better. The long curved crossover, somewhere around 1 in 14 would not be possible in 32mm IMHO. We reverse mineral trains through them into the yard and there is no deviation, lurch or drop whatever. In fact, you can't tell where the turnouts are looking at the wagons.

I commissioned my own gauges from a local precision engineering firm - about £17 apiece - but there is a manufacturer making them as an etch now. I have not used it to know how accurate it is.

Nothing comes off in either direction, but occasionally we do have to check and adjust the back-to-backs, as it is less tolerant in this respect. One word of warning. Heljan use a non-standard wheel profile, and their wheelsets do not go through 31.5, well, not without a 6lb hammerblow on the nose. San Cheng and Tower Brass do.

Any further questions, ask away.

Yours

Richard Lambert

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5th message | this message only posted: 28 Feb 2011 17:08
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from:
Rob Manchester
 

 

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Hi Richard,

Thanks for the comments. I won't be using any Heljan locos on the layout so no problems there - nice models though. Interesting to hear what you say about the Sancheung/Bachmann/Tower brass locos - I do have one of Tower's Pug 0-4-0 locos so that would probably be used.

One thing I do need to know before starting work is what track standard offers the best visual look ( that mainly comes down to small flangeways/check rail clearance as it matters not a jot what the actual gauge is ) but will still enable sharp radius turnouts and curves ( probably bends or corners would be a better description! ).

I wouldn't mind doing it in S7 as Slaters loco wheels can be turned down by a chap I came across recently and the wagon wheels can be exchanged for S7 ones with Slaters for a nominal sum.

Come on Brian L. I thought you would have jumped in here, especially as there are sales in it for you!

Thanks again Richard.

Rob


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6th message | this message only posted: 28 Feb 2011 18:33
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from:
Raymond
Bexhill-on-sea, United Kingdom

 

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31.5mm gauge will give you visually appealing track work with close tolerances. For instance, wheels will NOT drop into the gap in crossing noses. However, your stock will run on any finescale 7mm railway and theirs on your track, (so long as the back to back is accurate). But, your tracks will always look better.

Regards

Raymond
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7th message | this message only posted: 28 Feb 2011 22:21
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: One thing I do need to know before starting work is what track standard offers the best visual look ( that mainly comes down to small flangeways/check rail clearance as it matters not a jot what the actual gauge is ) but will still enable sharp radius turnouts and curves ( probably bends or corners would be a better description! ).
Rob,

If you do decide on S7 then you would have to consider applying gauge widening to tight radius curves - probably the maximum value from what you have discussed earlier. :D

7mm FS has a large amount of slop built into its 32mm gauge standard,  so has plenty of gauge widening already.  That's why people can consider using 31.5mm gauge and even 31mm gauge alternatives and still use 7mm FS wheelsets unmodfied.  If you do go for 31.5mm,  then you might consider leaving your plain track at 32mm gauge so that you have all that gauge widening available for your tight curves.

Jim.

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8th message | this message only posted: 28 Feb 2011 23:07
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from:
Rob Manchester
 

 

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Thanks to Jim and Raymond for the latest thoughts on the subject. I am not really any nearer a decision or clear as to what would work best. As usual though a bit of work to make a couple of turnouts and see how it looks and performs would be time well spent.

I think it was Brian Lewis, replying on another similar thread that mentioned using 31mm gauge on straight track with 32mm on the tighter curves. I seem to remember he campaigned the use of 1mm flangeway gaps but I will haev to do the maths to see how that stacks up with Slaters B to B measurements.

Thanks again to all. Any other comments most welcome.

Anybody going to Kettering on Saturday ?? I will buy the coffee if anybody wants a chat.

Rgds
Rob


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9th message | this message only posted: 1 Mar 2011 06:42
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from:
Raymond
Bexhill-on-sea, United Kingdom

 

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I will be there on the demonstrator's tables (RSU soldering) so do stop by.

Regards

Raymond
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10th message | this message only posted: 1 Mar 2011 07:11
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: I think it was Brian Lewis, replying on another similar thread that mentioned using 31mm gauge on straight track with 32mm on the tighter curves. I seem to remember he campaigned the use of 1mm flangeway gaps but I will haev to do the maths to see how that stacks up with Slaters B to B measurements.

Rob,

I also remember Brian saying that he was considering using Scale7 profile wheels with the 31mm gauge track with its 1mm check rail gap (same as Scale7).  In fact you could almost call the 31mm gauge standard "Scale7 - 2" :D   If you considered going down that road then you could easily get your Scale7 wheelsets from Slaters and push them in by 2mm (yet another peculiar British combination - exact scale wheels on narrow gauge track. :D)

Jim.

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11th message | this message only posted: 1 Mar 2011 08:53
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Jim Guthrie wrote:If you considered going down that road then you could easily get your Scale7 wheelsets from Slaters and push them in by 2mm (yet another peculiar British combination - exact scale wheels on narrow gauge track. :D)Hi Jim,

I'm finding it difficult to grasp the logic of using S7 wheels and then not building S7 track? :?

It's fortunate that we don't have the equivalent of the NMRA in the UK -- all members of the Standards Committee would have long since committed suicide. :)

Martin.

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12th message | this message only posted: 1 Mar 2011 08:57
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from:
mike47j
 

 

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I think that S7 and 31.5 are fine for main line track with big curves and long crossing angles.

For tight curves and A4 points then I think you are going to need the wider gauge of 32mm. The 31.5mm narrower check rails gaps on the straight will be fine, but on the curve side it needs to be wider or the wheel flange reduced.

In practice crossing angles of up to 7 are fine with 32mm gauge, over 7 then they are getting a bit rough, and over 9 can easily swallow small goods wheels.  

Anything you build will look much better than a Peco point.

As well as C&L parts, Exactoscale do very good insulating fishplates (better than the C&L ones) they also do the L1 chair that C&L don't do. These parts are available with easy online ordering from themodelkitshop, at shows I've got them from someone else but I can't remember who.

Mike Johnson

 

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13th message | this message only posted: 1 Mar 2011 13:42
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from:
Bruce Wilson
Barrie, Ontario Canada

 

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mike47j wrote: I think that S7 and 31.5 are fine for main line track with big curves and long crossing angles.

For tight curves and A4 points then I think you are going to need the wider gauge of 32mm. The 31.5mm narrower check rails gaps on the straight will be fine, but on the curve side it needs to be wider or the wheel flange reduced.

In practice crossing angles of up to 7 are fine with 32mm gauge, over 7 then they are getting a bit rough, and over 9 can easily swallow small goods wheels.  

Anything you build will look much better than a Peco point.

As well as C&L parts, Exactoscale do very good insulating fishplates (better than the C&L ones) they also do the L1 chair that C&L don't do. These parts are available with easy online ordering from themodelkitshop, at shows I've got them from someone else but I can't remember who.
If you do that why not just use the S7 gauge of 33mm?  Like Martin I am amazed that people will take the time and effort to use a non-standard "standard" when the same time and effort can be used to build to S7 standards.  There are some examples of small S7 layouts on the S7 web site

http://www.scaleseven.org.uk/Showcase/S7layoutshowcase.html

and all of the standards are there as well.

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14th message | this message only posted: 1 Mar 2011 16:26
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from:
Rob Manchester
 

 

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Thanks to all for the interesting replies, certainly plenty of choice.

How do I push Slaters wheels in by 2mm. Surely the rolling stock wheels are on shouldered axels ( unless the S7 ones are different ? ) and the loco wheels are fixed in terms of B to B by the square to round transition of the axle.

Mike's point about 'anything' that is handbuilt looking better than Peco is very sensible and at present I am probably favouring this approach. We shall see.

Rob


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15th message | this message only posted: 1 Mar 2011 18:02
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: How do I push Slaters wheels in by 2mm. Surely the rolling stock wheels are on shouldered axels ( unless the S7 ones are different ? ) and the loco wheels are fixed in terms of B to B by the square to round transition of the axle.
Rob,

You are correct.  I've just checked a Slaters Scale7 axle and it is shouldered.  I'm too used to my S and N scale axles which are parallel.  :D 

IIRC,  Slaters do make S7 axles for their loco wheels but I believe that they are only obtainable through the Scale7 Group.

Jim.

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16th message | this message only posted: 2 Mar 2011 21:26
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from:
Ian Allen
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

 

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Rob,

If it was me and starting from scratch, I'd go with O-FS and pointwork at 31.5mm. However, if you have experience of trackbuilding then why not just go S7. Building rolling stock to S7 standards isn't really very different to building stock to O-FS, especially if you're used to compensating.
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17th message | this message only posted: 2 Mar 2011 21:33
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from:
Rob Manchester
 

 

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Hi Ian,

Hope you are getting somewhere with the Raid problem.

Thanks for the thoughts on my layout plan. I like the idea of S7 but still worry about the tight clearances being suitable for the curves and pointwork I have in mind. I am just looking at an Agenoria kit I got last week and it states that in standard config the loco ( a 2-4-0T GWR Absorbed engine ) will negotiate 24" radius curves. That is presumably in 'ordinary' 32mm finescale. It wouldn't do it with S7 without gauge widening, which isn't too much of a problem to build in, but what about the pointwork ??

Rob


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18th message | this message only posted: 2 Mar 2011 21:48
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from:
Ian Allen
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

 

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With pointwork, as long as your flangeway clearances are correct all should be ok, even with a little gauge widening. Tyre width is narrower too.

As you're at Kettering on Saturday, why not ask for advice from some of the practical demonstrators, especially if some work in S7.
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19th message | this message only posted: 2 Mar 2011 22:15
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from:
Rob Manchester
 

 

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Hi Ian,

I will take a look at what people are giving demo's on at Kettering. My problem at shows is spending too much time ( and money ! ) on the trade stands. They should sell their goods with 'Not for re-sale on ebay' printed on them. That would make me double-certain to check I wanted something before flashing the cash..... I suspect I am not alone.

Rob


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20th message | this message only posted: 2 Mar 2011 22:45
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Rob

If I was contemplating what you're doing, I'd wonder about the following. If you've got sharp curves, and if you're thinking of 6-coupled locomotives, there's got to be a bit of give somewhere. You can get this from two sources; the amount the wheels can slide from side to side on the rails, and the amount each axle can move from side to side relative to the chassis. Taking the former, both 31.2 and S7 are tighter than the alternatives, limiting sideways movement, but you can to some extent allow for this by gauge-widening. Taking the latter, generally speaking you can get away with a bit more sideways axle movement with the narrower gauge, which might point you in the direction of 31.2. Which is why in any scale, as you get closer to the scale prototype gauge, the recommended minimum radii tend to increase.

Nigel

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21st message | this message only posted: 2 Mar 2011 22:45
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Whoops! 31.5, not 31.2!

Nigel
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22nd message | this message only posted: 3 Mar 2011 17:50
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from:
Emma Haywood
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Rob Manchester wrote:


I will take a look at what people are giving demo's on at Kettering.
Rob



Hi Rob.
The S7 group will have their small demo stand at Kettering.

Emma
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23rd message | this message only posted: 3 Mar 2011 17:58
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Emma Haywood
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Jim Guthrie wrote:
IIRC,  Slaters do make S7 axles for their loco wheels but I believe that they are only obtainable through the Scale7 Group.

Jim.


Hi Jim,
Slaters will supply S7 axles to anyone. You just need to specify these when ordering.
Slaters also supply packing washers for 32mm axles if you wish to go down that road.

Emma
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24th message | this message only posted: 4 Mar 2011 09:23
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richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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It's just a shame that neither C&L and Exactoscale have stands at Kettering this year :(

I hope everything is OK with Brian et. al.

Richard.

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25th message | this message only posted: 4 Mar 2011 13:57
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Jim Guthrie
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richard_t wrote: It's just a shame that neither C&L and Exactoscale have stands at Kettering this year :(

I hope everything is OK with Brian et. al..
Richard,

I saw Brian at the Bristol 0 Gauge trade show a month ago and he seemed fine and in his usual loquacious form. :D   I believe he is cutting down his exhibition appearances and spending his time running the mail order business at home and developing his laser cut kit projects.

Jim.

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26th message | this message only posted: 4 Mar 2011 15:47
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Brian Lewis
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Hi Rob.

Apologies for not replying earlier - and thanks for prompting me. I have all but given up on the Templot  group, as I have with others that you have to keep logging in to.  (In fact I have 572 unread Templot messages as emails. We used to be able to just click 'Reply' and carry on.  The current situation is a retrograde step in my opinion, but rather than complain, I just prefer to say nothing.  I will get around to unsubscribing eventually).

To answer your question, S7 is brilliant and as an ex P4 modeller, I suppose I should have migrated to that scale.  But instead, I went the other way,  to 31mm. (not 31.2mm, 31.5mm).

But if you move to S7, what happens when some F7 friends bring round their locos? It was for this reason that I went to 31mm.

Having read the above, I see it is of no help at all.  but fear not, Templot is full of people with strong opinions, who will no doubt offer you advice.

Regards

Brian Lewis


Rob Manchester wrote: Hi Richard,

Thanks for the comments. I won't be using any Heljan locos on the layout so no problems there - nice models though. Interesting to hear what you say about the Sancheung/Bachmann/Tower brass locos - I do have one of Tower's Pug 0-4-0 locos so that would probably be used.

One thing I do need to know before starting work is what track standard offers the best visual look ( that mainly comes down to small flangeways/check rail clearance as it matters not a jot what the actual gauge is ) but will still enable sharp radius turnouts and curves ( probably bends or corners would be a better description! ).

I wouldn't mind doing it in S7 as Slaters loco wheels can be turned down by a chap I came across recently and the wagon wheels can be exchanged for S7 ones with Slaters for a nominal sum.

Come on Brian L. I thought you would have jumped in here, especially as there are sales in it for you!

Thanks again Richard.

Rob



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27th message | this message only posted: 4 Mar 2011 16:04
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from:
Brian Lewis
United Kingdom

 

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Yes. Thanks Jim.

In the eleven years I have owned C+L, it has just got bigger and bigger.  At the moment, we have two full time people, one working until 1600hrs each day, one working Monday, Wednesday and Friday until 1430hrs, and then 4 others who pop in when they have a spare half day.  Even with this crew I am still working 12 hours a day, seven days most weeks.  Today I went to see three suppliers - the first time I have actually left Longridge House for three weeks. (Hermits come here in order to take lessons).  The normal days journey is just as far as the adjacent building, which is Carrs- C+L.

I am 70 this year and Mrs. L follows up closely behind.  Between us we have clocked up 7 serious surgical operations in 4 years. This cannot continue and unless we sell C+L soon, I can see we will just feel we have had enough and will close down and mothball the business.

Exhibitions?  ExpoEM - still the number one UK exhibition. GW Study Group in june.  Railwells in August, then Guildex and Scaleforum. Finally the December Reading. 

That seems to be enough - as does the content of this email....... :D

Brian Lewis



Jim Guthrie wrote: richard_t wrote: It's just a shame that neither C&L and Exactoscale have stands at Kettering this year :(

I hope everything is OK with Brian et. al..
Richard,

I saw Brian at the Bristol 0 Gauge trade show a month ago and he seemed fine and in his usual loquacious form. :D   I believe he is cutting down his exhibition appearances and spending his time running the mail order business at home and developing his laser cut kit projects.

Jim.


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from:
Debs.
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 :roll: 31.5mm. with 1.5mm. flangeways?........I have an idea where such gauges might be obtained. :cool:


Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Rob,

The best advice seems to be to ignore both 0-XF and 0-SF and choose between 0-MF and S7.



0-MF (31.5mm gauge, 1.5mm flangeway) accepts all existing G0G-Fine "industry-standard" wheels easily, and gives much improved running over the original G0G-F 32.0mm standard. The narrower flangeways look much better too.

For some track pics of a large layout using 0-MF, see:

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/253/entry-1422-heyside-trackwork/

Richard is a member of this parish, see:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=911&forum_id=12&jump_to=5265#p5256

I'm sure he would be happy to comment on his experience of 0-MF if you contact him here or via RMweb.

However, I'm not sure who is currently supplying track gauge tools for 0-MF.



S7 (33mm gauge) is the exact-scale option with its own wheels for those who want that instead. That's the 7mm equivalent of P4 with similar restrictions -- requiring springing/compensation, easier curves, and no interchange with existing stock having G0G-Fine "industry-standard" wheels. But it does look good.  :)



regards,

Martin.


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