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topic: 1433An approach to building complex formations
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posted: 26 Mar 2011 17:36

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Dear All,

I am just in the process of starting some track for my new layout and thought people might be interested in the way I have tackled it, involving as it does some complex bits and pieces. I have also posted a thread in the Nottingham Area Group forum in the S4 forum - so that tells you that the gauge is P4!

My track building approach is "unconventional" but has been developed to maximise the benefits of "modern technology" such as functional plastic chairs, Templot templates etc. I have also tried plenty of other ways of doing the job and all have upsides and downsides so I would say that I have adopted my approach in the knowledge of, rather than out of ignorance of Other Ways! But please don't anyone suggest using tubular rivets - I have knocked up several thousand of them and can see no need ever to use another one - ever!

I built a Test Track to "prove" the approach and in our S4 AG we are proposing to build a bigger (continuous run) one using similar concepts.

The job starts with developing the Template (my shorthand for a template developed in Templot!) two copies of which are then printed - one to make a "rail forming and sub assembly pre-fabrication jig" and the second to stick to the base board so that the track can be built directly upon it. It is important that the prefabrication jig is perfectly level so I make mine by spray-mounting the Template to a piece of 10mm thick laminate flooring which is flat, hard and rigid. If you have not just redone your flooring, go to you local flooring shop - they usually have a few bits to give away as samples.

The pics show the first stage of building the trackwork - to build ACCURATE pre-fabricated assemblies for the crossing work on the "rail forming and sub assembly jig" - this is how they did it on the Real Thing - building the important bits as assemblies in the workshop before taking them to site in lumps. The Template is the guide for positioning the rails along with the Crossing Flangeway gauge. For me, the secret in this stage is to build the assemblies with the rails NOT cut to length - but left as long as is practical. I very carefully curve these rails to fit perfectly over the Template - that way, when the rails are subsequently cut to length, they are already curved thus avoiding any tendency towards threepenny bit track!. This excess length also allows the rails to be positioned accurately prior to soldering-up.

To assemble these units, I use short strips of nickel silver at all the positions where the prototype would use block chairs, the strips themselves will subsequently be hidden by Exactoscale crossing chairs. The rails are held in the correct vertical alignment by sliding functional chairs on the outer ends. I don't make any attempt to secure the bits of N/S to the Template and the rails are only located by means of blutac blobs. Nonetheless, by proceeding in a logical sequence, one rail at a time, you never need more than two hands which is handy for me.

The advantages of building a pre-fabricated assembly this way are:-
1. you can "tack" solder it together, then lift it off the jig and squint along it to check that the rails are perfectly aligned - in the event of any issue, it is simple to unsolder and adjust without singeing timbers or un-soldering previous work.
2. Having taken the assembly out of the jig, you can turn it upside down and re-solder the joints to the N/S strips - thus dealing with any dry joints which are difficult to avoid when trying to solder several rails in close proximity
3. with the assembly upside down, you can place it on a flat surface and check that the rail surfaces are ABSOLUTELY level
4. because we are cutting / bending the rails directly onto the paper of the Template with no intervening timbers, the accuracy is much improved.

1129_261114_560000000.jpg1129_261114_560000000.jpg
In this image, you can see that after soldering it all up, I have then gone on to bend the wing rails, and in the case of the right-hand one, to cut it for the electrical gap - the wing rail thus removed having been previously assembled to its vee. You can also see that the other K crossing still requires two check rails adding.

1129_261114_570000001.jpg1129_261114_570000001.jpg


One aspect which has been mentioned previously in this forum is that the bends in the K stock / wing rails and in the common crossing wing rails are NOT sharp - they are a fairly gentle radius (equal on the Real Thing to n feet where n is the crossing angle - a one in nine crossing being 9 feet radius - which even in 4mm is a pretty gentle 36mm radius curve!


1129_261114_570000003.jpg1129_261114_570000003.jpg
You can see from this image that I have made the switch blade and wing rail as a single piece. This I do by filing up the switch with the rail over length, then curving the whole rail until it sits perfectly on the Template, then accurately forming the knuckle and then flair. This takes a bit of practice - it is easy to get it near enough, but we are looking for spot on! Obviously, this will need splitting later for electrical purposes, but this is easily done with a piercing saw, and with a fine blade, the saw kerf will create a perfectly spaced joint with the two rail ends still aligned.


I am hoping that this shot shows that the rails can be aligned quite well...

1129_261114_570000002.jpg1129_261114_570000002.jpg

You can see in this image that this tandem is so tight for space that the switches need to be loose heel - there is not enough length to use the flexible type.

You will also see that I have left some of the N/S base strips over-length. I tend to make them extra long, then cut them to length when everything else is complete as this makes them easier to manipulate. The ones in the shot will have check rails soldered to them in due course and only then will be cut to length.
It is probably important to say (but unnecessary in this forum) that this approach ONLY works with accurate templates - so Templot is a prerequisite to produce the Templates!

If people are interested, I will post some more pics showing how I turn these bits and pieces into some track!

Best Wishes,

Howard.

posted: 26 Mar 2011 18:34

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
If people are interested, I will post some more pics showing how I turn these bits and pieces into some track!
Hi Howard,

I think you have related some most useful, interesting and very common sense methods of accurate track-building techniques. :thumb:

I for one am very impressed with the way your “jigs” appear to work so well, and by the pictures you have posted of some tight and complex track formations, it seems to be the best way to go. :thumb:

Do please lets have more of this, as like many others, I am on a steep learning curve and feature items, with pictorial insets, like this are of immense assistance to understanding ways and means of achieving the perfect track-work for ones layout.

Like you I am also modelling in P4 gauge, since I want to achieve real accuracy, in all aspects, of what I am modelling, but often lack the little “know how” techniques used by the more experienced modellers, perhaps like yourself.

It is also a pity, that some experienced modellers seem to keep their “up the sleeve tricks” in techniques to them selves and not share the knowledge, it’s a breath of fresh air to see what you have achieved and, perhaps more important, that you are willing to share that knowledge freely with others.

So PLEASE lets have more, if that does not sound too greedy !! :D

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

posted: 26 Mar 2011 20:07

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Brian,

Many thanks for the words of encouragement! Very happy to post more, but don't 'old yer breath too much as I am "posting as I go" and I don't always go quickly! To be honest, my main motivation for posting is that I have seen lots of things posted (mostly elsewhere) which to me could mislead a beginner, or, whilst they might "work" for one simple point, would not be the best way for anything more complex.

I will perhaps also include some "basic stuff" like making vees and filing switches if that is of interest. I don't consider myself an "expert" at track building but I do have the advantage of having spent 40 years learning and am still doing so!

Best Wishes,

Howard.

posted: 26 Mar 2011 20:37

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
Very happy to post more, but don't 'old yer breath too much as I am "posting as I go" and I don't always go quickly! To be honest, my main motivation for posting is that I have seen lots of things posted (mostly elsewhere) which to me could mislead a beginner, or, whilst they might "work" for one simple point, would not be the best way for anything more complex.

I will perhaps also include some "basic stuff" like making vees and filing switches if that is of interest. I don't consider myself an "expert" at track building but I do have the advantage of having spent 40 years learning and am still doing so!
Hi Howard,

Many thanks for your response, and your efforts in posting the helpful material is much appreciated. :thumb:

I think you and I were cut from the same cloth as they say, I also like to take my time and try to get things right (perfect or as near as one can), I prefer accuracy instead of expediency.

I think it would be of immense help to others and myself if you published some “basic stuff”, as they say ‘always get back to basics’ and you won’t go far wrong.

Like your self, I too often see quite misleading articles on many topics, and are left wondering is that right and what should I do next.

Fortunately, with groups like Templot Club and a few others, there is always some help at hand to enlighten us as to where we are going wrong, and putting us back on the right track (no pun intended).

Anyhow, I look forward to seeing more of your posting, will learn from your experience.

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

posted: 26 Mar 2011 21:01

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Hi Brian,

I just posted some stuff here

topic 1386 - message 8931

which might also be of interest.

Best wishes,

H.

posted: 27 Mar 2011 01:04

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
I just posted some stuff here

topic 1386 - message 8931

which might also be of interest.
Hi Howard,

Apologies for not responding sooner, but had some priority jobs to do for a couple of hours.

That’s a great and simple idea you have for a blade filing jig, as you say, not rocket science. :thumb:

When I first looked at the jig, I had the same concerns as Phil Eakins, also I was concerned about possible ware of the wooden bridge edges whilst filing, you know how ham-fisted some people can be ( that probable includes me). :)

But having said that I still think it’s a very nice, simple and cheap solution to the job of filing down point blades. :thumb:

I really do not know what to suggest about the ware problem, if you replace the brass grip plate with a harder steel version, that might last a little longer, but then you will probably ware out the teeth of your file sooner !! :?

I must admit, you’ve got me thinking on this one.

Well done Howard.

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

posted: 27 Mar 2011 10:05

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Hi Brian,

To be honest, the wear is no issue at all - we are not into mass production, but when it is worn out, just make another!!! I think I made the whole thing in a morning and drank plenty of tea in the same timeframe!

The thing is that the wearing parts are filing GUIDES - the file should only very lightly brush against them, never with any weight over that part of the file. In the case of the wooden bridge, if you put any pressure on the file here you will dislodge the thing - it is only lightly clamped with two screws. The BIG (14") files assist with this. You are quite right that the choice of brass and wood is about protecting the file - big, good quality ones cost a lot - and we need the best quality tools - don't even thing of B&Q or Draper!

One thing I say to people who want to learn to make track:- first you must learn to use a file properly (you will need big ones, small ones, coarse ones, smooth ones - they don't last for ever: throw them out when they loose the edge), and a piercing saw (with swiss-made blades)and a soldering iron (I have three, a 15W, a 25W and a 50W temperature controlled, with about 6 or 7 differently shaped bits for getting into tricky places).

People who have the ability to file a perfect cube of steel exactly 15.0 mm along all sides and every corner a right angle will never wear out their jigs!!

I expect I am telling you what you already know, but I come across plenty of people who lack even basic skills and have almost no tools - they will get very frustrated trying to file up a set of switch tongues!. For myself, I am not a a time served artisan, I just got a lot of practice from making scrap!!.

Best Wishes,

Howard.

posted: 27 Mar 2011 11:42

from:

PaulTownsend
 
 

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From an ancient P4 track builder....an idea from original P4 Society handbook that I have always used.....dedicate a wide enough file to blade and vee preparation and glue onto its outer edges something eg wood sleeper strip that holds the teeth off the jig. The still exposed teeth in the middle still cut the rail but preserve the unhardened jig materials. The outer edge of the jig base end then needs two tapered grooves filed, with width equal to the protectives ,into which the protective strips slide, these slots are just deep enough that the file teeth just tickle the jig end.

posted: 27 Mar 2011 14:07

from:

Glen Suckling
 
Oswego - New York USA

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JFS wrote:
One thing I say to people who want to learn to make track:- first you must learn to use a file properly (you will need big ones, small ones, coarse ones, smooth ones - they don't last for ever: throw them out when they loose the edge), and a piercing saw (with swiss-made blades)and a soldering iron (I have three, a 15W, a 25W and a 50W temperature controlled, with about 6 or 7 differently shaped bits for getting into tricky places). 
 For myself, I am not a a time served artisan, I just got a lot of practice from making scrap!!.

Best Wishes,

Howard.
Howard,

This is excellent advice for everyone, novice and craftsman. Particularly the part about thowing out old tools. It is amazing how many work benches contain blunt, chipped, bent and generally useless tools.

I gave up conventional soldering irons a while ago when I invested in a resistance soldering machine. I do not know how I ever managed without it!

As far as making scrap, I am one of the world's experts.  But that is part of the fun, although it sometimes does not feel like fun at the time.

Glen

posted: 27 Mar 2011 15:19

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Further update here:-

topic 1386 - message 8940

posted: 27 Mar 2011 15:25

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Hi Glen,

I have never yet got round to resistance soldering - though I am attracted to the idea of it for sheet metal work. But I am surprised that you can REPLACE soldering irons with it - especially for soldering rails to base strips (or rivets [spit] for that matter)- how do you do that?

Regards,

Howard

posted: 27 Mar 2011 19:01

from:

Glen Suckling
 
Oswego - New York USA

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Hi Howard,

I have three different handpieces:

1) a standard dual electrode plier type for heavy duty work

2) a pair of dual electrode tweezers for finer work

3) a single electrode hand piece with a separate, clip on, ground for really fine work

In cases where access is restricted or very fine heat control is needed I have been known to use a second single electrode in place of the clip on ground. This actually works very well giving exceptional control of the heat placement and distribution with judically placed heat sinks. However there is one problem, I only have two hands. If both of my hands are holding electrodes I need a third hand to hold the solder. This can be overcome either by having a friend hold the solder (or one of the electrodes) or by using solder paste pre-applied to the parts to be joined.

The secret of resistance soldering is to get the two electrodes in direct contact with the pieces to be joined and in close proximity to the joint. Of course having the correct amperage (wattage) for the joint that you are making is also a big help. This will come easily with a little practice. I use a foot switch to actually apply the current to the handpiece once I am comfortable with the positioning of the electrodes.

I model in GOG O-FS with code 126 rails. I have got to the point where I can solder a power dropper to the underside of the rail without melting a plastic chair on the next sleeper.

I do still have two small 15 and 25 watt soldering irons which I use for soldering electronic components. This is more because I am concerned about the effect of high electrical currents on the components than from any concern about the mechanical or thermal impact of resistance welding.

Regards,

Glen

posted: 27 Mar 2011 19:15

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Many thanks for this Glen, I will look out a demo at this years exhibitions - I am always looking for easier ways of doing things!

Howard.

posted: 27 Mar 2011 19:28

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Hi Paul

PaulTownsend wrote:
From an ancient P4 track builder....


.. probably not more ancient than me:-)

but it is an interesting idea - though I worry about dedicating a file as I tend to use several different ones. But it does remind us that there are plenty of ways of skinning this cat and the principle is always about...
1. gripping the rail securely
2. guiding the file along the right straight line.

...after that anything goes!
Many thanks indeed,

Howard.

posted: 27 Mar 2011 22:24

from:

Les G
 
 

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Glen Suckling wrote:
I have three different handpieces:

1) a standard dual electrode plier type for heavy duty work

2) a pair of dual electrode tweezers for finer work

3) a single electrode hand piece with a separate, clip on, ground for really fine work


Hi Glen,

Interesting info about resistance soldering.  A picture or two can be worth a thousand words, so  would it be possible for you to post images of your electrodes and how you apply them together with dimensions please?

regards

Les G

posted: 24 Jun 2012 15:28

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Sorry that, having started this topic off quite some while ago now, I have not kept it up to date - though if anyone wants to see more there are updates (and debates!) here 
http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=1342&start=50 
and other info here:-
http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=2030

Anyway, here is quick pic of the current state of play. At this stage, none of the rails are stuck to the sleepers - they are just located by means of the dropper wire and the fishplates (Exactoscale working brass or plastic).  I have been spending the last few weeks laying all the point rodding in - which will be functional) and am just starting on the under-rail connections for the third rail electification - which will be cosmetic only!).  Having finished all that, the next stage is to take up all the rails, all the rodding and ballast between the sleepers and paint the rails and chairs, after which all the rails can finally be stuck down.

1129_241018_140000000.jpg1129_241018_140000000.jpg
Hope that is of interest, and I will update when there is more progress to show.

Best Regards,

Howard.

posted: 24 Jun 2012 15:52

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi Howard (JFS),

That track-work image looks a real work of art, and seems to flow very nicely, very well done !! :thumb:

I really look forward to seeing it all when finished with ballast and a bit of scenery around and about.

Again, very well done. :thumb:

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.



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