Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 144Templot on MacBookPro with Bootcamp and XP???
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posted: 28 Aug 2007 20:49

from:

Dave Phillips
 
New Jersey USA

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Hi Everyone!

I'm looking for other users running Templot on the same or similar hardware/software setup that I have. I have an Apple Macintosh MacBookPro with 17 inch display running Mac OS 10.4.10. I have a hard drive partition with Bootcamp version 1.3 and Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack 2 and Templot 0.91.b. I am having trouble successfully launching Templot with my setup, although Templot 91a and earlier versions launch every time.

Please respond here if you have the same or similar hardware/sotware setup. If you currently have launch problems on your setup please describe. If you had launch problems but they have disappeared, please report that as well.

Thanks in advance,

Dave

posted: 28 Aug 2007 21:43

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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Dave
I started using bootcamp this weekend with VM fusion and it has been a trial to say the least! XP required activating 4 times because of 'hardware changes' and Templot wasn't to keen on it either, I have only tried 91b but it wouldn't launch for me, i had everything running fine with Parallels until they updated it, i changed to bootcamp/fusion, TBH I wish i had been able to stay with my previous installation.
I had been blaming it on XP and changing hardware but maybe it is a Templot problem? I shall have a fiddle later and see what i can do!!
Dave Phillips wrote:
Hi Everyone!

I'm looking for other users running Templot on the same or similar hardware/software setup that I have. I have an Apple Macintosh MacBookPro with 17 inch display running Mac OS 10.4.10. I have a hard drive partition with Bootcamp version 1.3 and Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack 2 and Templot 0.91.b. I am having trouble successfully launching Templot with my setup, although Templot 91a and earlier versions launch every time.

Please respond here if you have the same or similar hardware/sotware setup. If you currently have launch problems on your setup please describe. If you had launch problems but they have disappeared, please report that as well.

Thanks in advance,

Dave


posted: 28 Aug 2007 23:00

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Dave, Cynric,

I've been googling and it seems clear that the Mac problem in 091b is the support for multiple monitors. There are numerous reports of problems with Bootcamp/XP/multiple monitors. See for example:

 http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=5151972

I know next to nothing about Macs, so much of it is Greek to me.:( However, it's too much of a coincidence that the only significant change between 091a and 091b is the support for multiple monitors.

All the reports refer to Bootcamp, I don't know if the same problem exists with Parallels. Dave, I sent you a lock-release code for your Parallels installation.  Have you tried it? It's in a PM because Comcast is refusing to accept my emails to you.

It seems you may be able to solve the problem by upgrading the graphics card driver. Alternatively, if you give me a few hours I will get a Templot version out with a bypass for the multiple monitor initialization, for you to try on your Macs.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Aug 2007 00:10

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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Martin
I'm not sure if it is the dual monitor support because of the XP problems i have had, I don't think XP likes the virtual machine it keeps requesting a new activation , I am thoroughly hacked of with Windows and WGA, I only install it for Templot and Turbocad:(
I will wipe the lot and reinstall tonight.....

Martin thanks for bring on the ball, such a change from some other software writers.
Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Dave, Cynric,

I've been googling and it seems clear that the Mac problem in 091b is the support for multiple monitors. There are numerous reports of problems with Bootcamp/XP/multiple monitors. See for example:

 http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=5151972

I know next to nothing about Macs, so much of it is Greek to me.:( However, it's too much of a coincidence that the only significant change between 091a and 091b is the support for multiple monitors.

All the reports refer to Bootcamp, I don't know if the same problem exists with Parallels. Dave, I sent you a lock-release code for your Parallels installation.  Have you tried it? It's in a PM because Comcast is refusing to accept my emails to you.

It seems you may be able to solve the problem by upgrading the graphics card driver. Alternatively, if you give me a few hours I will get a Templot version out with a bypass for the multiple monitor initialization, for you to try on your Macs.

regards,

Martin.


posted: 29 Aug 2007 02:42

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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Dave
I can now confirm that after reactivation 91a works for me in vm, I will try 91b later in the week and report back

Dave Phillips wrote:
Hi Everyone!

I'm looking for other users running Templot on the same or similar hardware/software setup that I have. I have an Apple Macintosh MacBookPro with 17 inch display running Mac OS 10.4.10. I have a hard drive partition with Bootcamp version 1.3 and Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack 2 and Templot 0.91.b. I am having trouble successfully launching Templot with my setup, although Templot 91a and earlier versions launch every time.

Please respond here if you have the same or similar hardware/sotware setup. If you currently have launch problems on your setup please describe. If you had launch problems but they have disappeared, please report that as well.

Thanks in advance,

Dave


posted: 29 Aug 2007 05:02

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Dave, Cynric,

I've been reviewing this topic from the beginning and also looking closely at the code. I'm getting more and more confused. :? I very much don't want to have to buy a Mac, but I just don't see how I can support use of Templot on a Mac without seeing it running for myself and testing it. I'm no longer sure that the multiple monitors issue is relevant.

Dave, you said originally that the problem occurs BEFORE you click the "Ready, Steady, Click" bar? And in fact before that control room window even appears? Are you quite sure? Because up until you click that bar, there is absolutely no difference in the code between 091a and 091b.

The only difference is that the 091b install includes an XP manifest file -- TemplotZero.exe.manifest.

This causes Windows to draw the control room window with XP style buttons. If that window appears in 091a but not in 091b, this is the only possible difference. Deleting the manifest file should revert to 091a behaviour. I know I've already asked you this twice, but are you quite sure you have deleted this file EVERY time after installing 091b? Because if you have, I'm completely baffled -- there just isn't any difference at that point between 091a and 091b.

Earlier you said that you did get 091b running -- by deleting a file called "DS Store" from the desktop. Is that no longer the case? If you delete it again does 091b now run?

And this is even more baffling -- because I now find that "DS Store" is a MAC hidden file -- see:
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.DS_Store

How does it come about that MAC files are visible on the WINDOWS desktop? I have to confess that I'm now completely lost. :( Is it possible that you could post some screenshots showing exactly what the screen looks like before you launch Templot, and describe the sequence of exactly what you then see in detail? I'm sorry, I've no idea how to create a screenshot on a Mac, but if Windows is running you should be able to create a screen bitmap on the clipboard by pressing the Print Screen key (if you have such a key), and then pasting it into any image editor.

Finally, how much do these Intel Macs cost? What is the minimum I would need to spend to be able to replicate your problem here?
 
regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Aug 2007 08:30

from:

Dave Phillips
 
New Jersey USA

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Hi Martin,
Dave, you said originally that the problem occurs BEFORE you click the "Ready, Steady, Click" bar? And in fact before that control room window even appears? Are you quite sure? Because up until you click that bar, there is absolutely no difference in the code between 091a and 091b.
I'm quite sure Martin. The Read, Steady, Click window never comes up. All I see is the gray Welcome to Templot window.

The only difference is that the 091b install includes an XP manifest file -- TemplotZero.exe.manifest. This causes Windows to draw the control room window with XP style buttons. If that window appears in 091a but not in 091b, this is the only possible difference. Deleting the manifest file should revert to 091a behaviour. I know I've already asked you this twice, but are you quite sure you have deleted this file EVERY time after installing 091b? Because if you have, I'm completely baffled -- there just isn't any difference at that point between 091a and 091b.
Again, I'm quite sure. Deleting the manifest file and emptying the trash can does nothing to fix the launching problem.

Earlier you said that you did get 091b running -- by deleting a file called "DS Store" from the desktop. Is that no longer the case? If you delete it again does 091b now run?
I'm not so sure anymore on this. I deleted the .DS_Store file a long time ago. It is true after I found this funny file and deleted it, I could launch Templot 91b, but the launch problem came back a few days later. I turned on view hidden files and couldn't find it on the desktop today. I also had Windows search for files containing DS_Stores and nothing was found.

And this is even more baffling -- because I now find that "DS Store" is a MAC hidden file -- see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.DS_Store How does it come about that MAC files are visible on the WINDOWS desktop?
Martin, I'm sorry. I just don't know. Maybe it got in with the setup of Boot Camp.

Is it possible that you could post some screenshots showing exactly what the screen looks like before you launch Templot, and describe the sequence of exactly what you then see in detail?
See attached for a screen shot pasted into Windows Paint after the error occurs. I'll send some additional shots and more dialog in the morning. You can just see the first Templot screen behind the Windows error window.

Finally, how much do these Intel Macs cost? What is the minimum I would need to spend to be able to replicate your problem here?
I'm not sure what the costs are in the UK, but you can go to http://www.apple.com.us and go to the store to get an idea of the list prices. You will need at a minimum a Macintosh Mini (intel version) to which you add your keyboard, mouse and display, plus a copy of Windows. Boot Camp is a free download and will be built into the next Mac OS version (10.5) scheduled to be released this fall. Personally, I'd recommend an iMac (for a desktop machine), or a 15 or 17 inch MacBookPro for a laptop machine.

Best regards,

Dave

posted: 29 Aug 2007 13:24

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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Martin

Thanks for the activation, everything is fine in VM and bootcamp with 91a and 91b :D

If you want to test on a mac I'm not that far from you in Hereford.

 

Dave, I have done a fresh install of XP via bootcamp 1.3 not 1.4 as I suspect it is something to do with the graphics drivers. i am currently posting from XP in bootcamp with 91b open and running, without any problems (I installed in it's own folder (not overwriting 91a)).

I hope this is of some little help

posted: 29 Aug 2007 15:35

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Cynric Williams wrote:
Thanks for the activation, everything is fine in VM and bootcamp with 91a and 91b :D
Hi Cynric,

Many thanks for letting me know. Is 091b displaying with the XP style buttons (rounded corners, orange border when the mouse hovers over them)? Or did you delete the manifest file?

If you now have 091b running, and Dave is saying that 091b did at one time run on his system, I think we must conclude that there is nothing inherently wrong in the program itself. The problem must be somewhere in Dave's system. What's so puzzling is that 091a runs there ok, when there is so little difference between them.

How similar is your Mac hardware to Dave's? Are you using multiple monitors? Do you see the message about multiple monitors when 091b starts up?

If you want to test on a Mac I'm not that far from you in Hereford.
Many thanks for the offer. I may take you up on that. It's quite a while since I was last in Hereford and it's an attractive city. However, what I need to see is 091b failing on a Mac -- and you've now got it running! :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Aug 2007 18:08

from:

Dave Phillips
 
New Jersey USA

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Hi Martin,

I forgot the attachment in my last post. It's here now. It shows the "Templot will be starting soon" screen behind the windows error screen.

Rather than buying a Mac, what information can I get for you? I'm sure there are file examination utilities available for PCs to look at files in hex. Is there a particular portion of TemplotZero.exe or any other key file you want to see?

At the risk of changing the test setup, I'm planning to update to Boot Camp 1.4 later today and see what that does. If still no success, I'll reload Windows and start all over (ugh).

By the way, did you compile 91a and 91b with the same compiler and settings? Is the compiled code the same at the beginning of each up until you draw the Ready...Steady...Click screen?

I can also make a mpeg movie of what I see when I launch if that would be helpful. Not sure what size it would be but I can try it. Let me know.

Best regards,

Dave
Attachment: attach_43_Templot_Launch_Failure.JPG 487

posted: 29 Aug 2007 18:27

from:

Dave Phillips
 
New Jersey USA

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Hi Martin,

Here's my desktop before I launch Templot as you requested (see attachment).

Following is what I do and see:
  1. I double-click the Templot 91b shortcut. (There is no difference in behavior if I double-click the application directly)
  2. A gray screen comes up centered on my display that states "TEMPLOT will be starting soon" in yellow text. The screen also has "0.91.b" in the lower left in purple text. Finally, the screen has "Welcome to Templot..." in white or light blue text in a blue border on the top of the gray screen. A thin blue border also surounds the left, right, and bottom of the screen. The "screen" is not a "window" per se since it does not have scroll bars, can not be resized, and does not have any clickable items in it. I think programmers call this a splash screen.
  3. About two seconds later the Windows error message comes up and the screen appears as in the attachment of my previous post. If I launch 91a, the Ready, Steady, Click screen comes up, replacing the Templot will be starting soon screen.
Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Dave
Attachment: attach_44_Normal_Desktop.JPG 512

posted: 29 Aug 2007 18:34

from:

Dave Phillips
 
New Jersey USA

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Hello again Martin!

I've attached a screen shot of my Templot Folder for your information and review. Please let me know if there is something missing or looks suspicious to you. Note that there is no manifest file.

Best regards,

Dave
Attachment: attach_45_Templot_Folder.JPG 490

posted: 29 Aug 2007 18:41

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Dave Phillips wrote:
I forgot the attachment in my last post. It's here now. It shows the "Templot will be starting soon" screen behind the windows error screen.

Rather than buying a Mac, what information can I get for you? I'm sure there are file examination utilities available for PCs to look at files in hex. Is there a particular portion of TemplotZero.exe or any other key file you want to see?
Hi Dave,

Many thanks for the screenshot.

Yes, I have hex file utilities. Not sure if they would run on a Mac though. What I would really like to do is install the compiler on a Mac so that I can step through the program in debug mode and see where the problem lies. That would mean having a Mac here, of course -- and being able to replicate the problem (see my message to Cynric).

I googled on the message for Microsoft, and all results point to a faulty add-on for Internet Explorer. Now one difference in 091b is in the internal Help texts. They are now in HTML instead of plain text. As far as I know the HTML viewer component makes no use of IE, but it is a strange co-incidence. The problem with IE is that it is so closely integrated into Windows you can never be quite sure when you are using part of it. Against that, the HTML viewer isn't actually used until after the stage where 091b stops.

By the way, did you compile 91a and 91b with the same compiler and settings? Is the compiled code the same at the beginning of each up until you draw the Ready...Steady...Click screen?
The source code is identical, likewise the compiler settings. The actual compiled code will have some differences -- the date, copyright info, etc. But if there was any problem there it wouldn't launch at all -- no "Templot will be starting soon" splash screen.

In view of the fact that Cynric is now running 091b ok, and you have done so before, I think we have to look outside Templot for a solution. The problem must be somewhere in your system setup, or the specific hardware you are using. The big mystery is why 091a runs ok but 091b doesn't.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Aug 2007 18:43

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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Dave/ Martin my Mac is a 17inch macbook pro 2gb ram c2d 2.33 sounds the same as Daves

I have attached some screenshots of Templot running in Bootcamp with a second monitor attached
Attachment: attach_48_dual_monitors.jpg 486

posted: 29 Aug 2007 18:44

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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Running on dual monitors...
Attachment: attach_49_dual_running.jpg 509

posted: 29 Aug 2007 18:48

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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Display properties.....

Dave

i hate to say it but I would reinstall XP pro and use bootcamp 1.3. although XP activation is a pain :( 
Attachment: attach_50_display_properties.jpg 507

posted: 29 Aug 2007 18:50

from:

Dave Phillips
 
New Jersey USA

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Cynric Williams wrote:
Dave, I have done a fresh install of XP via bootcamp 1.3 not 1.4 as I suspect it is something to do with the graphics drivers.
Hi Cynric,

Sorry, I'm confused. Your earlier post said you switched to bootcamp/fusion after problems with a Parallels update. Did you have problems with Bootcamp 1.4, XP and Templot, or VM Fusion, XP and Templot? I'm assuming Fusion is another virtualization approach like Parallels, and would not be used with bootcamp???

When you stated that Templot 91b wouldn't launch, where the symptoms the same as I described?

What problems did you have with Parallels update? I purchased version 3.0 but have not installed it yet, trying to keep my system the same until I get Templot running again.

Best regards,

Dave

posted: 29 Aug 2007 18:58

from:

Dave Phillips
 
New Jersey USA

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Cynric...I'm jealous!

Looks like I have to mess with Windows.:( I'll let you know how I make out later.

Dave

posted: 29 Aug 2007 19:08

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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Dave,
It is geting confusing isn't it?!
I had other problems (non templot) with parallels and I am now using Fusion by VMware
In attempting to fix Parallels, XP (and vista) and templot became unstable so on advice from other mac users I switched to Fusion.
At this point i decided to install bootcamp I didn't use Bootcamp 1.4 (again going by advice on mac forums)
my installation order
  • Bootcamp 1.3
  • XP on bootcamp and activate
  • install fusion
  • set fusion to boot from bootcamp partition
  • install fusion tools and reactivate XP
  • Install templot 91a while running XP in Fusion
  • activate and test OK
  • once this all worked I installed 91b in its' own folder
  • result templot 91b runs in bootcamp and fusion!!


Dave Phillips wrote:
Cynric Williams wrote:
Dave, I have done a fresh install of XP via bootcamp 1.3 not 1.4 as I suspect it is something to do with the graphics drivers.
Hi Cynric,

Sorry, I'm confused. Your earlier post said you switched to bootcamp/fusion after problems with a Parallels update. Did you have problems with Bootcamp 1.4, XP and Templot, or VM Fusion, XP and Templot? I'm assuming Fusion is another virtualization approach like Parallels, and would not be used with bootcamp???

When you stated that Templot 91b wouldn't launch, where the symptoms the same as I described?

What problems did you have with Parallels update? I purchased version 3.0 but have not installed it yet, trying to keep my system the same until I get Templot running again.

Best regards,

Dave


posted: 29 Aug 2007 19:12

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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Dave
i have pm'd you my email address, I think this a mac debate rather than templot unless anyone else is interested?? :D:D

posted: 29 Aug 2007 20:10

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Cynric Williams wrote:
Dave
i have pm'd you my email address, I think this a mac debate rather than templot unless anyone else is interested?? :D:D
Hi Cynric,

Bob Bean previously posted a detailed report about using Templot and 3rd PlanIt on an Intel Mac: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/7167 . As far as I can tell he hasn't yet registered on this forum, but you can email him via the Yahoo group membership list.

Thanks for the screenshots -- multiple monitors and all! :)

Could you do one more thing -- click help > please read this first menu item and confirm that the notes are correctly displayed in 091b? Also, if you click the Templot Companion button at the bottom your browser launches and accesses the Templot web site? It's possible that the browser launches behind the Templot pad.

Thanks.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Aug 2007 21:19

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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confirming 91b....
Martin Wynne wrote:
Cynric Williams wrote:
Dave
i have pm'd you my email address, I think this a mac debate rather than templot unless anyone else is interested?? :D:D
Hi Cynric,

Bob Bean previously posted a detailed report about using Templot and 3rd PlanIt on an Intel Mac: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/7167 . As far as I can tell he hasn't yet registered on this forum, but you can email him via the Yahoo group membership list.

Thanks for the screenshots -- multiple monitors and all! :)

Could you do one more thing -- click help > please read this first menu item and confirm that the notes are correctly displayed in 091b? Also, if you click the Templot Companion button at the bottom your browser launches and accesses the Templot web site? It's possible that the browser launches behind the Templot pad.

Thanks.

regards,

Martin.

Attachment: attach_51_help_information.jpg 517

posted: 29 Aug 2007 21:28

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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and templot companion launches in ie7

I have had a very quick play this afternoon and all seems good.

One thing my second display is DVI straight into the Mac, I have  read that using the DVI to VGA adaptor causes problems in XP and bootcamp  http://forum.onmac.net/showthread.php?t=771  just a thought Dave......
Attachment: attach_52_templotcompanionsmall.jpg 505

posted: 29 Aug 2007 22:07

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Cynric,

Many thanks for all the screenshots. It seems all is now fine with 091b on your system.:) Do you feel the problems were a one-off, or were your difficulties typical of the problems Mac users can expect in getting Windows + Templot running? There is still the mystery of Dave's problem.

I sometimes receive enquiries asking if Templot will run on a Mac, and from a position of knowing nothing about Macs I give a cautious yes. But I don't want to steer users towards this option if it means a lot of hassle for them. For Mac users a cheap second-hand PC may be the easiest way to run Templot.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 30 Aug 2007 00:41

from:

Cynric Williams
 
 

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Martin
I would say it's a one off, my problems were Windows and driver based rather than templot based. I would expect any Windows software to run under bootcamp which is just a way of booting windows on EFI rather than BIOS.
My other problems with Parallels were due to virtual hard drive and ram resizing which i guess caused templot to ask for new activation codes every time the drive or ram resized, but it was also causing problems with XP and vista, which is why I stopped using Parallels. it has taken me a week to sort the problems associated with it :(
My current setup is bootcamp 1.3 either booting straight into XP or running through VM fusion. my preference is to run in virtual machine so I can access all my other applications.
I would be reluctant to recommend Parallels based on my experiences with it.
You are right to give a cautious yes, it will work but it is at the end users risk! I wouldn't say 'buy a Mac to run templot' I do use  opensource software in Linux so i am used to getting my hands dirty :D it's all rather ironic because i switched to macs because they just work!!

I hope Dave gets his problems sorted ASAP and can get back to railways.

Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Cynric,

Many thanks for all the screenshots. It seems all is now fine with 091b on your system.:) Do you feel the problems were a one-off, or were your difficulties typical of the problems Mac users can expect in getting Windows + Templot running? There is still the mystery of Dave's problem.

I sometimes receive enquiries asking if Templot will run on a Mac, and from a position of knowing nothing about Macs I give a cautious yes. But I don't want to steer users towards this option if it means a lot of hassle for them. For Mac users a cheap second-hand PC may be the easiest way to run Templot.

regards,

Martin.


posted: 30 Aug 2007 21:54

from:

Ian
 
 

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Hi Everyone
just be looking at this thread. I'm running a MacPro but have not used boot camp yet. As mentioned earlier in the thread the new OS software will make boot camp much less problematic and i'm hoping to be running templot on my Mac soon after the software release in November. I would never advise somebody to buy a Mac just to use templot. However buy a Mac to realise just how good life can be.......

posted: 31 Aug 2007 01:09

from:

Dave Phillips
 
New Jersey USA

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Hi Martin, Cynric, Pall and others,

Well I give up. Templot 91b launched successfully with Bootcamp last night. It failed to launch yesterday morning and all of a sudden decided to launch last night. Only difference between morning and evening was a MS Windows automatic install of a Daylight Savings Time patch and my return from vacation. I guess Windows and/or Templot wanted a vacation also. Anyway I'm back up and running but I still don't know what the problem was.

Also, I tried Templot 91b with Parallels for the first time last night and it works fine.

Thanks to all for the help and best regards,

Puzzled and Perplexed Dave



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