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1st message | this message only posted: 28 Jul 2011 21:50
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from:
Glen Suckling
Oswego, New York USA

 

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Hi Martin, While you are preparing the current major revision to TEMPLOT would it be too much trouble to update the scale/gauge data that TEMPLOT uses for American O scale/gauge (NMRA-O)?

TEMPLOT currently lists NMRA-O as 9/32" per foot scale running on 11/4" gauge track. I know that there is a prototype for everthing and I am sure that somebody, somewhere is using  9/32" =1 foot scale on 11/4" gauge track but I do not know that person. My modelling aquaintances in America are not aware of that scale/gauge being used nor is 9/32" per foot scale referenced in the NMRA standards.

There are three commonly used standards for O scale/gauge modelling of standard gauge (4' 81/2") railroads in the USA. These three probably account for 99.9% of all of the O scale/gauge models built here. Each one is covered by an NMRA standard. They are:

PROTO 48 (NMRA S1.1) Commonly called P48, this standard uses a scale of 1/4" per foot running on 13/16" gauge track. P48 is the American equivalent of the British S7.

O (NMRA S1.2) Commonly called "O Scale", this standard uses a scale of 1/4" per foot running on 11/4" gauge track. "O Scale" is the American equivalent of the British GOG Fine Scale (GOG-F).

Odf (NMRA S1.3) The df stands for "deep flange". This is commonly called "High Rail" or "O Gauge". this standard also uses a scale of 1/4" per foot running on 11/4" gauge track, the main difference being the deeper and wider flangeways. "High Rail" is the American equivalent of the British GOG Coarse Scale (GOG-C).

I know that you have your hands full right now but this one has been bugging me for while.

Regards, Glen    


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2nd message | this message only posted: 28 Jul 2011 22:46
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Glen Suckling wrote: Hi Martin, While you are preparing the current major revision to TEMPLOT would it be too much trouble to update the scale/gauge data that TEMPLOT uses for American O scale/gauge (NMRA-O)?Hi Glen,

I have already done so. This is the current list of 0 gauges and scales in TDV:



I have renamed the 9/32"/ft scale as "US-OLD". It's in there because 13 years ago when I was compiling the list I found it listed in an old model railroading book, including some pictures of such models. I will look out the book and post some scans.

I hope this list now includes all the common 0 scales and gauges -- more of them than for any other scale.

The list still includes American 00:  00-NMRA, gauge 0.750", scale 5/32"/ft. I hope that is still ok?

The NMRA changed all the dimensions not long ago, so keeping up to date from this side of the pond is not so easy. :)

regards,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 29 Jul 2011 00:43
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from:
Glen Suckling
Oswego, New York USA

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: I have already done so. This is the current list of 0 gauges and scales in TDV:Hi Martin,

Thank you. As usual you are a step ahead of me!

I think that the 5/32" 00 has probably gone the same way as the 9/32" 0 and the dinosaurs but you never know, there may still be some diehards out there who get enjoyment out of having to make everything from scratch. I enjoy scratch building but I like to pick my projects - there is not enough time to do everything yourself. Not if you ever want run anything.

Glen

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4th message | this message only posted: 29 Jul 2011 06:04
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Wasn't it called Q scale?   I remember reading about it many years ago - probably in the Model Railroader.   IIRC,  it was the US attempt to get a more accurate scale/gauge relationship in 0 scale but by keeping the gauge the same and changing the scale,  unlike the UK which keeps the scale the same and has a plethora of gauges. :)   As far as I remember,  the track and wheel standards were the same for 1/4" and 9/32" scales.

Jim.

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5th message | this message only posted: 29 Jul 2011 06:04
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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I've just been doing a bit of Googling and found this web page which mentions Q scale

http://www.spikesys.com/Modelrr/scales.html

But I also note a mention of 17/64" scale on that page and I now think that I remember that as the accurate scale gauge relationship..

Jim.

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6th message | this message only posted: 29 Jul 2011 07:22
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from:
Alan Turner
Dudley, United Kingdom



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Jim Guthrie wrote: I've just been doing a bit of Googling and found this web page which mentions Q scale

http://www.spikesys.com/Modelrr/scales.html

But I also note a mention of 17/64" scale on that page and I now think that I remember that as the accurate scale gauge relationship..

Jim.


Interesting. Q scale appears to be Continental "0" Gauge.

Alan

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7th message | this message only posted: 29 Jul 2011 07:36
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Jim Guthrie wrote: Wasn't it called Q scale?Hi Jim,

Thanks for the link. An amazing list. :)

My understanding is/was that Q scale refers to European 1:45 models on 32mm gauge. The whole thing is a minefield. :(

It's an odd situation because it is usual and sensible for RTR models to run on an underscale track gauge. This makes room for overscale running gear within a scale-width model. But 1/4" scale on 1.25" track gauge is significantly overscale in gauge. This must make it very difficult to build accurate scale models.

And it's strange because the dominant US scale is H0 (Half-0) at 3.5mm/ft but they don't have a corresponding 0 scale for it to be half of.

Here in the UK we have exactly that in 7mm scale -- but no mainstream Half-0 modelling. :?

regards,

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 29 Jul 2011 09:25
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from:
Alan Turner
Dudley, United Kingdom



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Very interesting. it appears that American "0" gauge seems to be 1:48 running on UK "0" gauge track?


Well within 0.25mm.


Alan


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9th message | this message only posted: 29 Jul 2011 13:12
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from:
Glen Suckling
Oswego, New York USA

 

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Alan Turner wrote: Very interesting. it appears that American "0" gauge seems to be 1:48 running on UK "0" gauge track?

Well within 0.25mm.

I actually do run1:48 on 32mm track and 1:43.5 on 1.25in track.

The scenic part of my layout is built to GOG-F standards using code 125 BH rail while the fiddle yard and a long tunnel are built to NMRA O standards using code 148 FB rail. My rolling stock is a mixture of UK and American (usually one nationality at a time, but I have been known to mix them up!).

I find that if I am careful with the check gauge and get the back to back correct the rolling stock really does not care about the quarter of millimeter difference in in the track gauge.

Glen

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10th message | this message only posted: 29 Jul 2011 14:35
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: But 1/4" scale on 1.25" track gauge is significantly overscale in gauge. This must make it very difficult to build accurate scale models.Remember reading somewhere that it arose out of the notion that an overscale gauge would give more reliable running for toy trains. Having things work was more important than appearance.

Nigel

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11th message | this message only posted: 5 Aug 2014 05:45
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from:
Peter Wright
 

 

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Does anyone in the ‘States (or UK) make track gauges for P48? I’ve been looking for the last couple of years....

Best, Pete.
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12th message | this message only posted: 5 Aug 2014 07:27
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from:
Matt M.
Australia

 

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Hi Peter,

Your request rang a bell. During research on model track standards I visited
the 'Proto48 Modeler' website.

http://www.proto48.org/p48_suppliers.htm

On the suppliers page there are two listed names that apparently
do jigs and gauges. A gentleman by the name of James Canter and
Paul Martineau trading under NCO Shops.

Worth a try maybe?

Regards, Matt M.
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13th message | this message only posted: 5 Aug 2014 11:07
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from:
Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Best bet is probably Protocraft (protocraft.com).

Hope that helps,

Simon
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14th message | this message only posted: 5 Aug 2014 14:11
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from:
Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Nigel Brown wrote: Martin Wynne wrote: But 1/4" scale on 1.25" track gauge is significantly overscale in gauge. This must make it very difficult to build accurate scale models.Remember reading somewhere that it arose out of the notion that an overscale gauge would give more reliable running for toy trains. Having things work was more important than appearance.

Nigel
Originally the toy manufacturers measured the gauge between the centres of the rails (I have reproduction Bing catalogue from 1912) and the production methods of the time produced rail with a head width of approximately 1/16". Viewd that way, the gauge matches the scale very well.
Unfortunately,  when someone else came along who knew how it should be measured, no one told them how 1.25" was being measured (I.e. incorrectly! ) so it all went to pot - model track standards of the era were somewhat accommodating,  so no great hardship. 
I presume that at some point a few calculations were performed, and 7mm came out as the nearest whole number on the metric scale. (Metric being viewed as more scientific/engineering-y at the time.) The sensible and logical (and scientific/wnginerring!) approach is to define your scale ratio and set the gauge from that. After all,  that's what we do for all of the other dimensions!
(The best alternative is to make aure the distance over the outside faces of the whwels is to scale and to derive everything else backwards from that. Proto:whatever suddenly seems easier!)
So, American 0 has the right scale, but unfortunately the wrong gauge, due to ignorance in the first case and ignorance of the ignorance in the second! 
Incidentally,  00 is listed as 1" gauge. With the track used at the time, this would make it very close to modern S scale. 
Since "Pendon"/"Manchester"/Ultrascale wheels work perfectly with S, maybe 00 and EM modellers could consider changing scales to their wheel and track standards, and widen the gauge a bit... :)

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