Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 1747glueing track
author remove search highlighting
 
posted: 22 Dec 2011 21:15

from:

Ed Callaghan
 
Bury St. Edmunds - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
For glueing down track & ballast, Norman Solomon recommends Febond PVA because it dries flexible, unlike wood glue, and therefore won't crack. Other writers recommend Copydex for exactly the same reason. My limited experience suggests that Copydex is probably more flexible than any brand of PVA, albeit more expensive. I'd welcome views from those in the know.

posted: 23 Dec 2011 10:10

from:

John Shelley
 
St Ciers Sur Gironde 33820 - France

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Ed Callaghan wrote:
For glueing down track & ballast, Norman Solomon recommends Febond PVA because it dries flexible, unlike wood glue, and therefore won't crack. Other writers recommend Copydex for exactly the same reason. My limited experience suggests that Copydex is probably more flexible than any brand of PVA, albeit more expensive. I'd welcome views from those in the know.
Copydex is a latex based glue and as such inherantly more flexible than most PVA glues and in my view a better solution.  When ballast is glued using PVA you get a solid mass which can transmit noise using the basebords as amplifiers.  Less noise is transmitted through the flexibly glued ballast and so you get quieter running, not that important at an exhibition, but in the home.......  A cheaper alternative to Copydex is the latex based glue used fitting carpets, usually sold in 5litre(?) plastic cans.

Cheers for now
John from 33820 St Ciers sur Gironde, France.

posted: 23 Dec 2011 12:06

from:

allanferguson
 
Fife - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Copydex does, as stated, remain flexible. But if you try to drill holes in it (as for wiring) the glue film will wrap itself round the drill and simply peel off the baseboard and rail/ballast surfaces -- a pain in the neck. I have used a spray adhesive sold for floorcoverings with some success, but it leaves little time for adjustment.

I'm not convinced of the soundproofing qualities of any combination of adhesive and underlay on a conventional baseboard. The only reasonably quiet system is, I think, the baseboard made of rigid foam; but I've only seen it at exhibitions, and there may be other drawbacks. Who wants a quiet railway anyway!

Happy Christmas everyone!

Allan F

posted: 23 Dec 2011 12:27

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
allanferguson wrote:
Copydex does, as stated, remain flexible. But if you try to drill holes in it (as for wiring) the glue film will wrap itself round the drill and simply peel off the baseboard and rail/ballast surfaces -- a pain in the neck.
Hi Allan,

Been there, done that. :(

Before drilling, make 4 quick cuts through the film with a sharp craft knife around the hole position, like this: #

It takes only a couple of seconds. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 23 Dec 2011 13:45

from:

Ed Callaghan
 
Bury St. Edmunds - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin does that imply that you'd endorse the use of Copydex rather than PVA? Ref Allan's post, my trackbed will have 3mm closed cell foam on top as shown in the Solomon DVD. I want it to be quiet apart from the DCC loco sounds!

posted: 23 Dec 2011 14:06

from:

allanferguson
 
Fife - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin is quite right about making cuts around the proposed drilled hole; but I found it a bit of a fiddle. The comment about Copydex remaining flexible while PVA is rigid is also correct. My own (permanent) layout is laid on 6mm foam (cheap camping mat) with flexible adhesives; but I found that the only place where the trains were really quiet was where a section of track had been temporarily laid and not secured to the underlay atall -- not really viable in the long term. This stuff also gives problems maintaining horizontal and vertical alignment at rail joints, making some sort of rail joiner or functional fishplate necessary.
Our group experience on "Burntisland" was that the closed cell foam caused difficulties at baseboard edges. Since this is an exhibition layout the question of noise doesn't really arise.
Personally, if I was starting from scratch again, I might be tempted to forget about underlay altogether.

Regards

Allan F

posted: 23 Dec 2011 14:58

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Ed Callaghan wrote:
Martin does that imply that you'd endorse the use of Copydex rather than PVA? Ref Allan's post, my trackbed will have 3mm closed cell foam on top as shown in the Solomon DVD. I want it to be quiet apart from the DCC loco sounds!
Hi Ed,

I've always preferred Copydex over PVA, and 1/8" cork underlay impregnated with diluted Copydex over foam. An alternative to cork is 1/8" balsa wood.

That's just a personal preference -- I'm not in a position to grandly "endorse" anything. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 23 Dec 2011 15:17

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
The first proper layout I built was just after reading the first P4 articles in the M R Constructor in the late 60's. It talked about using "white glue" (meaning PVA) but as a spotty 12 year old the only "white glue" I knew of was Copydex - which I have used ever since.
I use Martin's method of avoiding disasters when drilling holes.
having tried cork / foams for underlays, I have come round to Alan's view and I am currently building a layout without any underlay - this has the massive advantage of being able to lay the template directly on the baseboard then build the track directly onto that - wonderfully accurate, though it does mean that the "old" approach of building a whole formation then plonking it down into an ocean of wet glue has (for me at least) become a bit obsolete. Despite this, I will still use Copydex for ballasting - with PVA, any "trimming" of ballast needs a pneumatic pick!

I did post some pics here
topic 1433
though I note that it is long overdue an update!

Having said all that, let me share a bad experience with glue. When I tried to stick the template (about 4' x 2') to the base board, I used "spray glue" of the Display Mount type. Perfect. Except that now, about a year later it is bubbling up. So for the next one I used wall paper paste - sticks fantastically well, but the template grows by about 20% - not helpful. Back to Copydex for the next one??

Just one other caution with PVA - never stick underlay to an MDF baseboard using it - the underlay will be all shapes in no time - even if the MDF is primed. Copydex does not seem to have that effect (providing that the MDF is primed!)

Any one have different experiences?

Best wishes,

Howard.

posted: 23 Dec 2011 15:30

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Howard.
Try pasteing the baseboard rather than the Template, this should avoid much of the swelling problem.
Tony.

posted: 23 Dec 2011 16:04

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
So far I've not used underlay with the current layout; it's a 1930's GWR station where you wouldn't have much of a ballast shoulder anyway. The track is constructed "off-board" in manageable segments on double-sided tape and then laid in position; the tape is usually good enough to keep it in position until ballasted, although in critical positions I've shoved P**o track pins through the odd sleeper to make sure. For much of the layout I used PVA, but then switched to matte-medium sold by Woodlands Scenics, which does seem quieter.

I might try laying templates on the board and building on top of them some time. Reasons putting me off are that track building on the workbench is, I reckon, more comfortable than bending over a baseboard, and, instinctively I'm a bit suspicious of ballasting on top of a paper template.

posted: 24 Dec 2011 17:03

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
This is all interesting reading chaps, as next year I will have to investigate more "modern" methods of laying track and "underlay" in advance of the construction of trackwork for the SR7mm Group Plan Y. I so far have a 1 metre length of track stuck down to double layer cork using aerosol carpet adhesive. The ballast I used has been fixed in place with diluted Copydex.

I certainly don't want to go down the trackpin/PVA route !

Ian

posted: 24 Dec 2011 17:27

from:

Pete Williams
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
I have successfully used copydex, however I have also had no problems with using clear silicone filler as used in Kitchens and Bathrooms.

Pete

posted: 24 Dec 2011 17:59

from:

Pete Williams
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
I should have said Silicone sealant, sorry folks

Pete

posted: 24 Dec 2011 22:11

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hello Pete,
I have used silicon sealant for sticking everything else, except model railway bits!! My only issue with it is that you cant get paint to stick to it now anything that has been anywhere near it - how did you get on with paint?

Best Wishes,

Howard.

(ps not really sad to be doing this on Xmas eve - just got back from a meal, building models is too antisocial and nothing on the box....)

posted: 24 Dec 2011 23:22

from:

Pete Williams
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Howard
I must admit that I laid the track on a spread bead of silicone then spray painted the track before ballasting so having the track secured by silicone sealant had no effect at all, the ballasting was by using dilute PVA with a dash of washing up liquid applied with a pipette


Best wishes

Pete
Last edited on 24 Dec 2011 23:23 by Pete Williams
posted: 26 Dec 2011 11:54

from:

BeamEnds
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
For sticking the track down, only where necessary, I've experimented with Evostick, making points glued to the template which can then easily be removed before placement. Final positioning on the layout will use pilot holes and removable guide pins through the sleepers (as per Martin's suggestion somewhere on the site) with a dab of glue if required. Alterations are easy and damage-free. This works for O gauge, back in my OO and N days I'm afraid I just used track pins with the heads hidden under ballast.

For ballasting I used my tried and tested method, used for N, OO and O (despite being declared a heretic on RMWeb for suggesting it!). Mix the ballast with dry powdered type wall paper paste (the ratio isn't that critical), position, and then spray with a little water - the paste merges into the ballast, and can be worked for some time to get shoulders etc if needed. It sticks sufficiently to hold the track firmly, yet it is easy to cut away with a knife if required (e.g. forgotten wiring etc), yet more or less brushes off (Peco) track when lifted. With a cork 'underlay', there is little if any difference in noise.

Cheers
Richard

posted: 26 Dec 2011 16:24

from:

Pete Williams
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Richard,

 

Thanks for that tip on ballasting with wallpaper paste, that idea had never crossed my mind, thanks again

 

Pete

posted: 27 Dec 2011 11:53

from:

LSWRArt
 
Antibes - France

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
BeamEnds wrote:
For sticking the track down, only where necessary, I've experimented with Evostick, making points glued to the template which can then easily be removed before placement. Final positioning on the layout will use pilot holes and removable guide pins through the sleepers (as per Martin's suggestion somewhere on the site) with a dab of glue if required. Alterations are easy and damage-free. This works for O gauge, back in my OO and N days I'm afraid I just used track pins with the heads hidden under ballast.

For ballasting I used my tried and tested method, used for N, OO and O (despite being declared a heretic on RMWeb for suggesting it!). Mix the ballast with dry powdered type wall paper paste (the ratio isn't that critical), position, and then spray with a little water - the paste merges into the ballast, and can be worked for some time to get shoulders etc if needed. It sticks sufficiently to hold the track firmly, yet it is easy to cut away with a knife if required (e.g. forgotten wiring etc), yet more or less brushes off (Peco) track when lifted. With a cork 'underlay', there is little if any difference in noise.

Cheers
Richard
Hi Richard
That is an interesting idea for the ballasting.  Having used PVA in the past and finding it almost impossible to lift the point without damage, this seems a much better idea.
However, not clear about your first point.  Are you using Evostik to stick the sleepers to the templates, as I would have thought that would have been pretty permanent? 
And are you using Evostik to tack the points in a couple of places to stop them moving, or do you rely on the guide pins to stop the points shifting when the tie-bar moves, or only the paper paste and ballast?
Regards,
Arthur

posted: 27 Dec 2011 17:04

from:

Pete Williams
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Arthur,
I used PVA in laying my track and last night had cause to lift (& Pack)a section I applied hot water with a pipette and the track was able to be lifted with no damage at all.
Best wishes
Pete

posted: 27 Dec 2011 22:59

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Arthur.
A technique I have used one more than once to lift track glued with PVA is to lightly spray the track with water, cover the track with a layer of damp cloth and then cover this with a layer of plastic to keep the moisture in and allow to it penetrate the ballast and PVA glue. This can take several days if the glue is thorougherly set but has always worked eventually. I would though, be rather reluctant to try this method where steel rail is involved for obvious reasons.
It is also possible to purchase washable PVA glue from art and crafts shops and this is much easier to soften than the traditional wood bonding varieties.
Tony.

posted: 27 Dec 2011 23:26

from:

Les G
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides

Tony W wrote:
Hi Arthur.
... I would though, be rather reluctant to try this method where steel rail is involved for obvious reasons... 

You could smear the railhead with a rag impregnated with petroleum jelly before applying the water,  the grease could be removed later with a rag soaked in white spirit, or meths.

Les

posted: 28 Dec 2011 00:11

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Howard.
In an earlier reply you asked for other peoples experiences with track laying, so here goes although some of my experiences appear counter to yours.
On the first P4 layouts I was involved with, the track was layed the traditional way, ie, a layer of PVA, track positioned and ballasted whilst still wet. One major drawback only became apparent when we started running trains, the noise transmission. When I started Green Street  with the Central London Area Group (CLAG), we decided to investigate the causes of this and quickly came to the conclusion that any mechanical connection between the track and the baseboard allowed the sound to be transmitted to the latter. The most successful decoupling we produced was using one of our members pullovers as underlay, hardly practical!
At the time Ray Hammond was using a different system of building his track on shellaced card which was then only fixed down to the baseboard along the edges, effectively a floating track system, which produced much quieter running. Inspired by this, we ellected to do something similar. 1/8th inch cork was glued to baseboard and a layer of 1/16th shellaced artist mounting board card cut to match the trackbed was lightly glued down along the edges. When all this had set, the track was glued down using Copydex. This appeared to work quite well apart from the glue wrapping itself round any drill in the vicinity as already noted.
Problems only manifested themselves after some years when we began to notice that the alignment of our carefully laid track was deteriorating to the extent that the running lines resembled industial sidings and derailments were not uncommon. We came to the conclusion that because the Copydex never set it was allowing the track sections to drift relative to one another. It eventually became so bad that we eventually bit the bullet and made the difficult decision to lift all the running lines and relay them replacing the card with a 1/16th  inch cork and using PVA this time. Only the sidings where poor alignment looks acceptable were left as is, but the relaid track has not caused any real problems since.
I am convinced that there has to be a better way, but I am not sure we have found it yet.
Tony.

posted: 28 Dec 2011 00:21

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Les G wrote:

Tony W wrote:
Hi Arthur.
... I would though, be rather reluctant to try this method where steel rail is involved for obvious reasons... 

You could smear the railhead with a rag impregnated with petroleum jelly before applying the water,  the grease could be removed later with a rag soaked in white spirit, or meths.

Les
Hi Les.
That's certainly one option.
I do actually have a section of a layout built with steel rail that needs lifting and I have seriously considered painting all the rails surfaces to keep the water off whilst I do so, the under side of the rail needs to be coated as well to make sure of it, and this is difficult to see. I will have to tackle it one day though.
Tony.


posted: 28 Dec 2011 10:00

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Well, what an interesting little thread this has proved to be!

I can see myself doing an experiment with wallpaper paste even before the holiday is out...

Tony W wrote:
Problems only manifested themselves after some years ...

Here is the rub when it comes to laying track
- it is something most of us do only a few times in our lifetimes
- there is no way back once you have committed yourself
- even if it is perfect on day one, there is no guarantee of it staying that way.
- "mistakes" are costly!

Hence the value of an exchange of experiences on a forum like this.

Tony W wrote:
We came to the conclusion that because the Copydex never set it was allowing the track sections to drift relative to one another.


I never had any problems on the last layout with the Copydex allowing movement but it is very difficult to diagnose the root cause when we can only see the symptom. I suspect there is no such thing as the perfect glue, just "different" properties.

I also wonder if we are guilty of just talking about "PVA" - there are probably a wide range of different formulations out there with a range of different properties.

One thing I am wary of with "PVA" is that it is certainly very active chemically and therefore has potentially unpredictable consequences.

It is also very "old hat" - what do we know about more modern alternatives? Aliphatic resins, polyurethane etc?

My only "conclusion" so far is that it is essential to think of the track as a whole system right from the start - INCLUDING how it will be laid / decorated / made operational. In the past, I have been guilty of building the units on the template and only then worrying how to lay it / wire it etc. So I had better press on with the current magnum opus and report back how it goes...

Howard.

posted: 28 Dec 2011 10:21

from:

alan@york
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides

and possibly how to remove/repair it later on...

Additionally every piece of my track has multiple wire feeds, on a "just in case" basis.
alan@york

posted: 28 Dec 2011 11:51

from:

wcampbell23
 
Hamilton, Scotland - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Another potential option for securing loose ballast is the Scenic Cement from Woodland Scenics.  It seems to be competitively priced compared with Copydex.

Has anyone in the Club had experience of using it?

Any feedback would be helpful.

Bill Campbell.

posted: 28 Dec 2011 12:44

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Tony W wrote:
Problems only manifested themselves after some years
Perhaps I can add a few notes about how we laid the track on Adavoyle Junction:

ad5.jpgad5.jpg

The track in this picture was laid in 1984 and first exhibited at Scaleforum in 1986. The photograph was taken 19 years later in 2003, and the track is still in fine condition now 27 years later (now in the care of the South Dublin Model Railway Club).

More info: http://www.templot.com/GNRI/adavoyle.htm

The track never gave us any problems, apart from the usual bumps and knocks after 20+ years on the exhibition circuit. It was never noticeably noisy, even at home -- although of course Tony Miles's sweet-running loco mechs contributed a lot to that.

The track was all traditional rivetted ply in the visible areas -- no flexi-track in 21mm gauge, then or now. :)  Tony made all the plain track, and a lot of the junction pointwork was built by Peter Taylor, including all the mixed-gauge stuff. The rail is all nickel-silver, soldered with SMT paste (solder cream). It was all done a year or two before Len Newman introduced the first K&L plastic chairs -- the so-called cosmetic half-chairs available at the time were awful shapeless bits of white metal. So we moulded the chairs in situ around the rivets, using hot-melt adhesive from a glue gun. I remember spending many hours on the spark eroder making the chairing tools in brass. Tony spent even more hours using them. The glue was injected through the tops of the chair bolts, leaving little whiskers of glue which had to be trimmed off with fine snips -- 6 of them on every sleeper.

The baseboards for the station area in the picture were made using domestic double-skinned flush doors, which have a cardboard honeycomb structure inside. We added 6" deep framing all round them, but without any cross bracing. Elsewhere the baseboards were conventional open-top construction using 9mm plywood.

Over the track areas of the baseboards we added a layer of 7mm Sundeala soft fibreboard, which was loosely pinned in place, not glued.

Then the 1/8" chamfered cork underlay was fixed to the Sundeala using Thixofix (thixotropic solvent-based rubber contact adhesive). The Thixofix was used as intended as a dry contact adhesive, always coating the cork last because it dries much faster and often needs a second coat. It's best to choose a windy day and open the windows to clear the solvent fumes.

The track was then glued down to the cork, again using Thixofix. In this case the Thixofix was used wet as a traditional glue, coated generously on the cork only. The track was laid, wired up and thoroughly tested before we did any ballasting.

For the ballast we were determined not to use the traditional noisy "concrete" mix of the time -- green granite chippings fixed with PVA adhesive. Initially we used home-made cork granules ground up in a kitchen mixer, although it was very time-consuming to make and sieve to the correct size. Later we mixed it 50-50 with fine-grade Woodland Scenics ballast to save time, and as the layout progressed the amount of cork in the mix got less and less. :)

To fix the ballast we used diluted Copydex. Even diluted it is not very fluid and is quite awkward to brush between the sleepers without getting any on the track. So we adopted the trick of cutting 6mm wide strips of industrial tissue (the sort of stuff that hangs on petrol station forecourts) on the guillotine, and threading them under the rails between each sleeper. Then a few generous drops of diluted Copydex was applied which wicked along and through the tissue, forming a nice even spread between the sleepers and under the rails. The ballast mix was then added and firmed down between the sleepers by dabbing with a stiff brush. It was then misted over with water to help the Copydex wick up into it. Next day the surplus was brushed off and cleaned up.

After a quarter of a century there are a few bare spots needing patch repairs, but generally the ballasting has stood the test of time very well.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 28 Dec 2011 12:50

from:

Glen Suckling
 
Oswego - New York USA

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
wcampbell23 wrote:
Another potential option for securing loose ballast is the Scenic Cement from Woodland Scenics.  It seems to be competitively priced compared with Copydex.
Hi Bill,

Yes, I have recently started using it. It goes down well but I have only had it in place on my layout for a few weeks so I cannot speak for its performance over the long term.

Here in the USA MicroMark (http://www.micromark.com) are marketing their own brand of scenery and ballast cement which, at first glance, seems to be the same thing but at a lower price. I have just bought a bottle but have not opened it yet. I will let you know.

Incidently I do not glue my track down per se. I use a 3/4 inch plywood base to which I glue 1/2 inch homosote and 1/8 inch cork. The track is pinned down with just enough track nails to hold it in place. I then spread the ballast and finally apply the ballast cement. After the cement has dried I remove any obvious track nails. This procedure seems to hold everthing in place but I do keep a track nail in place on each side of the switch tie bars.

Glen

posted: 28 Dec 2011 16:24

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
As an underlay, has anyone thought of using Expanded EPDM ?

posted: 28 Dec 2011 16:36

from:

Ed Callaghan
 
Bury St. Edmunds - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
What is EPDM please?

posted: 28 Dec 2011 16:52

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
It is basically a synthetic rubber with a variety of uses from automotive seals and pipes to roofing and pond lining.

posted: 28 Dec 2011 17:41

from:

BeamEnds
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
LSWRArt wrote:
BeamEnds wrote: 
Hi Richard
That is an interesting idea for the ballasting.  Having used PVA in the past and finding it almost impossible to lift the point without damage, this seems a much better idea.
However, not clear about your first point.  Are you using Evostik to stick the sleepers to the templates, as I would have thought that would have been pretty permanent? 
And are you using Evostik to tack the points in a couple of places to stop them moving, or do you rely on the guide pins to stop the points shifting when the tie-bar moves, or only the paper paste and ballast?
Regards,
Arthur
Hi Arthur,
it's both really. I stick the sleepers to the template, and it's pretty simple to peel the template off - it prefers sticking to the paper that plastic sleepers. I'm not sure if there are variants of Evo-Stick, the one I use dries 'rubberyish'.

The guide pins are just panel pins with the heads cut off. The holes are drilled during building (4 works ok, but I do 6 for good luck). The pins are then tapped in a bit in corresponding places on the baseboard template, the points slip over them. If all is well, the template can then be removed. I Eveo-Stick the timbers by the point blades and on each 'corner'. This is on cork sheet, which the glue can stick quite well too, but should a disaster occur the cork can easily be cut away and a new bit inserted.

The wall paper paste would probably be sufficient on its own, but I'm a bit belt-and-braces!

Cheers
Richard

posted: 28 Dec 2011 17:48

from:

BeamEnds
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Oops - the template and pins can be removed..

Cheers
Richard

posted: 28 Dec 2011 18:12

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
wcampbell23 wrote:
Another potential option for securing loose ballast is the Scenic Cement from Woodland Scenics.  It seems to be competitively priced compared with Copydex.

Has anyone in the Club had experience of using it?

Any feedback would be helpful.

Bill Campbell.
Bill

I'm not sure! I ordered some, but what I received wasn't branded Woodland Scenics. It was called Matte Medium (with a reference to Scenic Cement underneath). I believe Matte Medium (from whatever source) is widely used in the U.S. for ballasting. Anyway, it works. And is quieter than PVA. Only problems I have with either is glueing the odd switch rail.

Cheers
Nigel

posted: 28 Dec 2011 18:39

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
Perhaps I can add a few notes about how we laid the track on Adavoyle Junction:
Martin,

Many thanks indeed for writing this up - I was going to specifically ask about Adavoyle, as I have always admired it for many reasons - not least the track!.
one thing is clear from reading this - good results come from lots of careful thought and attention to detail. It is a good job it is only a small branch, rather than a "Main Line" layout.

[It can't be a Main Line layout - I read somewhere that no one has ever built one in P4. Ha Ha!]

Best Wishes,

Howard.

posted: 28 Dec 2011 19:05

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
How about New Street by Jim Smith-Wright, or Wadhurst ?

Ian

posted: 28 Dec 2011 23:10

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Howard, interesting indeed. Quite a bit of ground has been covered since my previous post.

On the subject of PVA glues the washable type I have is called BLUE LABEL washable PVA adhesive whereas the person who recomended it to me had Red label. It is sold under the name brianclegg that is how it appears on the bottle and they have a website http://www.colorlord.com which lists no less than 5 different types for different uses. It does not look as though they will supply direct though. No doubt there are other grades supplied by others.

Adhesives are a big subject and millions of pounds are spent researching and developing new types so I am sure there is scope for investigation and experiment. The problems we encountered with Green Street may well not be encountered by everyone. The reason for the apparent movement was certainly difficult to pin point. Thermal cycling experienced by the track panels may have been a factor and possibly some of the dropper wires may have exerted some slight sideways force, difficult to know. The track was all soldered ply and rivet construction, plastic track would allow the rail to move of course. The baseboards were constructed from 3/8 ply, a double layer frame (which was a bit OTT in retrospect) diagonally braced for rigidity and the surface layer was 10mm Sundeala with 1/8th cork and originally card over the top for the track formation. Sundeala board needs a lot of support or it sags. I also became convinced that in the winter when the humidity was higher the Sundeala absorbed moisure and expanded slightly whereas the track contracted due to the lower temperatures and in summer the reverse happened.

Time of course can show up any number of unexpected and unwanted effects. For instance we are also finding that plasticard can shrink over time, presumably as the plasticizers evaporate and things no longer fit as well as they did, indeed the base of our plastic sector plate that was screwed to the baseboard has split in a couple of places in between the fixing screws and the actual moving part that was a close fit is now about a mm short. I guess not everyone has the same layout for 30 plus years and it is still not finished!

Like you I was very interested in Martin's comments re Adavoyle. I too was most impressed the first time I saw it at Scaleforum many years back and especially in Martin's chair moulding methods, I think what impressed me most was the lengths to which some people were prepared to go to to produce realistic track, after all how many of us have access to a spark eroding machine and the knowledge of how to use it. I have remained in awe of their achievements ever since as it is an impressive layout by any standards.

Tony.

posted: 29 Dec 2011 05:16

from:

LSWRArt
 
Antibes - France

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Thanks Richard
I think that is the way that I shall go.
All the best
Arthur

posted: 29 Dec 2011 10:08

from:

John Shelley
 
St Ciers Sur Gironde 33820 - France

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
[It can't be a Main Line layout - I read somewhere that no one has ever built one in P4. Ha Ha!]

Best Wishes,

Howard.
Heckmondwyke. (spelling?)  by the North London Group many years back.

John from St Ciers

posted: 29 Dec 2011 10:38

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides

John Shelley wrote:
[It can't be a Main Line layout - I read somewhere that no one has ever built one in P4. Ha Ha!]

Best Wishes,

Howard.
Heckmondwyke. (spelling?)  by the North London Group many years back.

John from St Ciers

Matte Medium is PVA.


Heckmondwike.

Isn't Adavoyle Junction, above, main line enough for you?

Also:

Clarendon of the Leamington and Warwick Model Railway Society

Bramblewick by Tom Harland

Burntisland - East of Scotland 4mm Group

Alan

posted: 29 Dec 2011 10:56

from:

Les G
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides

JFS wrote:
...  [It can't be a Main Line layout - I read somewhere that no one has ever built one in P4. Ha Ha!]
Howard.

Hi Howard,
It appears that your author, Mr Somewhere is, at best, woefully misinformed.

 Or is there, perhaps,  a dod of turn o' the year mischief  in the air ?  :D

LesG

posted: 29 Dec 2011 12:20

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Alan Turner wrote:
Matte Medium is PVA.

This Matte Medium is certainly more flexible than the PVA I'm used to.

Cheers
Nigel

posted: 29 Dec 2011 16:29

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Ian Allen wrote:
How about New Street by Jim Smith-Wright, or Wadhurst
Ian


... or even Kings Cross or Preston.

But no, none of those can possibly be Main Line layouts, because no one has ever built one in P4.... [Ha Ha]


Best Wishes,

Howard

posted: 30 Dec 2011 20:25

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Tony W wrote:
Time of course can show up any number of unexpected and unwanted effects. For instance we are also finding that plasticard can shrink over time


Hi Tony,

Again, lots of interesting things here - Green Street again is an impressive layout - albeit I have only seen it via the CLAG site [can you prompt the chaps to update the pics of the layout by the way?]

I had not thought about the use of Sundeala as an underlay - it seems to be an idea which had some poularity! I gave up on it as a baseboard material after trying it on an abortive 7mm layout - as you suggest - it went all shapes!

Regarding plasticard, about 35 years ago I bought a large sheet of white 20 thou, which never got used and I still have it.
Even though it has never been anywhere near any solvent, it is now the colour of GWR coach cream and is so brittle it splits under its own weight. Perhaps there is no such thing as an "inert" material.

Perhaps getting back "On Topic" and thinking about your Green St experience - I am wondering if there is a truism that the more layers of materials you put under the sleepers, the more opportunity there is for swelling etc?

Best Wishes,

Howard.



about Templot Club

Templot Companion - User Guide - A-Z Index Templot Explained for beginners Please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors.
indexing link for search engines

back to top of page


Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so.
The small print: All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted. The owner of this web site is not responsible for any content displayed here other than his own contributions. The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason. Problems with this web site? Contact webmaster@templot.com.   This web site uses cookies: click for information.  
© 2020  

Powered by UltraBB - © 2009 Data 1 Systems