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                                       Dummy Vehicle on transition curves
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2012 18:15
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from:
Brian Nicholls
Poole, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,

When checking clearances using the Dummy Vehicle option, I’m sorry to say, that I found the dummy vehicle did not follow the curve through a transition. :?

It followed the initial radius, but when it came to the transition change marker, it got off centre line through the transition area, still following the starting radius.

See attached image.

It is a shame because this is such a great essential tool aid and very quick to use.

I’m not sure if you can do anything about this, but hope this does not cause you too much work, I know that this is a very welcome recent addition to the TDV.

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

 




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2nd message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2012 19:05
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Brian Nicholls wrote:When checking clearances using the Dummy Vehicle option, I’m sorry to say, that I found the dummy vehicle did not follow the curve through a transition. :?Hi Brian,

It's working here through transitions and slews -- naturally I tested that, very thoroughly. :)

But maybe not thoroughly enough -- please could you post your box file for these templates so that I can see what's happening. Thanks.

regards,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2012 19:15
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Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin

I've been able to reproduce this - I think you will see what may be happening.

(Actually, forget that!  Squinting at Brian's original image I can see that the dummy vehicle is still on the control template, mostly.  Perhaps I need new glasses :D )

Cheers

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4th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2012 19:27
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Paul Boyd wrote:I've been able to reproduce this - I think you will see what may be happening.Hi Paul,

Thanks for trying but you haven't reproduced it. :)

I did explain in the notes:

* note that the dummy vehicle can be rolled only along the control template alignment. It can't roll across template boundaries onto a different alignment on a background template -- over a crossover road for example, or through complex formations created from multiple partial templates.

See: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_postx.php?post_id=11596

edit: our posts crossed. :)

regards,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2012 19:38
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Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin

I think I must have missed something - wouldn't be the first time!
note that the dummy vehicle can be rolled only along the control template alignment...but in Brians image, which I've now looked at full size, the dummy vehicle is still on the control template alignment - well, OK, it's partly fallen off the end, but on my system when I roll the dummy off the end it seems to follow where the control template would have been.

Incidentally, what's the red rectangle with what looks like a dimension underneath it?  Not seen that before!

Cheers

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6th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2012 20:11
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Paul Boyd wrote:Incidentally, what's the red rectangle with what looks like a dimension underneath it?  Not seen that before!Hi Paul,

It's the ruler tool. See this page from 2003: :)

http://www.templot.com/martweb/pug_info_1.htm

scroll down to:


ruler tool

There is a new ruler tool which can be used to take measurements from your drawing. This is an alternative to using the spacing-ring tool for this purpose. To see the ruler click the tools > ruler > show ruler menu item and possibly also the tools > ruler > zoom pad to fit menu item.

The ruler can be set to any length or position by moving each end independently. Each end can be separately zoomed-in on for precision positioning, and adjusting one end does not affect the position of the other end.

The ends of the ruler can be positioned by holding down the ALT key and clicking the mouse. A left-button click sets the 1st (zero) end of the ruler at the mouse pointer position, a right-button click sets the 2nd (dimensioned) end of the ruler. For greater precision the mouse pointer can be changed to cross-hairs by clicking the pad > mouse options > cross-hairs pointer menu item. The ends of the ruler can also be moved by mouse action, click the action > mouse actions: pad > move ruler tool end menu items.

The ALT click functions will work while a mouse action is in force (including moving the ends by mouse action), but are available only while the ruler is actually showing. Be aware that ALT-LEFT click also zeroes the "moved by" read-out figures on the Jotter. If you want to do this without moving the ruler, temporarily hide the ruler (tools > ruler > hide ruler menu item).





Other ruler functions available are tools > ruler > 1st end on spacing-ring, 1st end on notch, and swap ends, which extend the usefulness of the ruler. For example in the diagrams above, the ruler is being used to measure the clear length of a siding, the 6ft way clearing point having been first established by use of the spacing-ring tool. Then 1st end on spacing-ring was used to commence measuring from that position.

Or to measure the distance from the toe of the turnout (blade tips) to the clearing point, you could do CTRL-2 peg on toe (for the current template), then put notch under peg, then 1st end of ruler on notch, then swap ruler ends, then 1st end of ruler on spacing-ring.

The ruler uses the same colours as the scalebar. To change them, click the pad > drawing pad colours > scalebar and ruler colours > menu options. The ruler division markings use the same font and text colour as the grid labels. To change it, click the pad > pad grid options > font for grid labels... menu item. To change the spacing of the divisions, click the tools > ruler > divisions... menu item.

Click the tools > ruler > set ends at... menu item and then click the ? help F2 flag for more information about using the ruler.



regards,

Martin.



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7th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2012 20:20
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Paul Boyd wrote:...but in Brian's image, which I've now looked at full size, the dummy vehicle is still on the control template alignmentYes, that's why I'm waiting for Brian to post the box file so that I can see what's gone wrong.

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2012 20:20
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi MartinIt's the ruler tool. See this page from 2003: :)Well, if you will keep introducing new features :D :D

Wonder why I've never felt the need to use that before?

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9th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2012 22:28
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Brian Nicholls
Poole, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,

First apologies for not posting the Box file earlier, I had visitors very soon after posting my message.

What I am trying to do here, is to make loop curves to the fiddle yard, which I need to keep as tight a radii as possible without infringing the min radius of 1000 mm.

Also have allowed 58 mm adjacent track centres for clearance.

These fiddle yard curves are those to the right, the remaining track-work to the left, is from the outer edge of the layout plan.

One thing I would like to add regarding this matter, is whilst initially adjusting the transition (coarse adjustments) I experienced the ZIG ZAG effect when the transition was too small for the calculations.
However, I overcome the effect by using the adjust transition start < Cntrl- Shift- F3 >, once the screen came back to normal, I then finely adjusted the transition to mate with the curved track.
I’m not sure if this played any part in the problem regarding the dummy vehicle, but thought I should mention it.

Please find box file attached.

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.


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Attachment: Dummy_Vehicle_Problem.box (Downloaded 140 times)
 
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10th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2012 23:11
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Brian Nicholls
Poole, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,

Following my last message, I have just tried using a curved SLEW on another fiddle yard curve, and had the same problem.

Now I started with a constant curve template with overall length of 3486.48 mm and, of radius 1068 mm, which then I copied as an experiment.

I then shortened the length of the copied curve to 749.16 mm (the shortened curve bye the way remained overlaid on top the original longer curve).

I then made a slewed curve with the following changed data:

Slewing Zone Start = 80 mm

Slewing Zone Length = 663.96 mm

Amount of Slew = 12.51 mm

I kept this slewed template in control, and did a dummy vehicle check to see what happened.

The result was the same as before, and I found that the dummy vehicle followed the radii of the original longer un-slewed curve.

This was a simple stand alone experiment.

Hope this helps.

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

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11th message | this message only posted: 28 Mar 2012 07:41
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Alan Turner
Dudley, United Kingdom



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I've just constructed the track as above and the dummy vehicle follows the control template - as it should.

Is the slew Mode 1 or 2?

I used mode 1

regards

Alan
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12th message | this message only posted: 28 Mar 2012 13:43
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Brian,

Thanks for posting your file.

I have deleted my previous drivel because I have now reproduced your screenshot:



It's very simple -- what you have done is to move the dummy vehicle so far to the left that it has gone round a complete circle at the first radius anticlockwise, and reappeared at the top of the screen. I think if you had noticed the dimension in the mouse action panel showing a large negative position for the dummy vehicle you would have realised what was happening (ringed yellow above).

The problem recurred on the test slewed template because when you change to a different control template, Templot doesn't reset the position of the dummy vehicle. So you had the same negative full circle on that one too.

I will get this changed so that when the control template changes the vehicle position is reset.

You can reset it manually to a more sensible dimension by clicking the dimensions... button, or by clicking the dimension showing in the mouse action panel (ringed yellow above).

Thanks for reporting it.  :thumb:

regards,

Martin.

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13th message | this message only posted: 28 Mar 2012 14:44
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from:
Brian Nicholls
Poole, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,

Many thanks for the two responses.

I was just about to launch my response (in brown below) to your message of posted: 28 Mar 2012 11:09 when I spotted your latest message, however, I will also include it since it may explain a few things.

I now understand the problem, and I do remember that I had to hunt for the dummy vehicle, which was hidden from view off screen way out in the blue zone, which is where I had been working on a previous set of templates.

I did notice that the dummy vehicle, when you first opened the menu, appeared way off the template, and was clearly where it had been left from the last time the menu was used.


Martin Wynne wrote:
I will get this changed so that when the control template changes the vehicle position is reset.
I would suggest that you reset the vehicle to be at the datum point.

So great news, you’ve solved it. :thumb:

I tried the CTRL+F8 Test on the suspect transition template, and the peg followed the centre line exactly, including where it was transitioned, so no problem there.

Regarding the ZIG ZAG, I may well have used a combination of both SHIFT+CTRL-F3 and SHIFT+CTRL-F4 to clear the problem, so apologies for that.
However, it did clear that particular problem and I then continued to adjust the curve to fit the requirement.
This was done by a combination of SHIFT+CTRL-F3 and SHIFT+CTRL-F4 to get the curve to the approximate line up, then fine tuned using F6 Curving for both 1st & 2ng Radii.


I must also say, that this is the very first time I have experienced the ZIG ZAG problem (for want of a better name).

Now my system is as follows:

Processor: -  AMD Athlon XP 3000+  … 2.17 GHz
Ram: -     3 GB
Video Card: - NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200


I have re-tried the issue again today, after an over night shut down, and the problem still persists.

The only other thing I can think of is to try a re-load of the latest TDV program and see if that clears things up, however, I will hold fire on this just in case you need further tests or information, since the rest of Templot seems to work fine and I can keep going on other sections of my system.

One further thing I need to say is, that I am almost sure that this issue did work previously since I have used the dummy vehicle facility a lot lately, because I have been checking clearances as I have progressed with the layout before finalising the templates. However, like most people I just keep plodding on without paying too much attention to things I do, one might say, automatically, so I cannot be absolutely sure if I have checked any transitions before using the dummy vehicle facility.

Like your self Martin, I am beginning to think that something may be slightly off with my system, so as stated above, I will try a re-load of the TDV.

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

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14th message | this message only posted: 28 Mar 2012 15:07
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from:
Brian Nicholls
Poole, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,

Just a follow up note.

I tried the issue again, and when I opened the dummy vehicle menu (as before) I found the vehicle shape was way out to the right any well below the template, so naturally I rotated the vehicle in an anti-clockwise direction (the shortest route back to the template), and low and behold the issue was there, it failed to track the centre line.

However, I then rotated the dummy vehicle in a clockwise direction (full circle), this time the issue had disappeared, the vehicle tracked the centre line perfectly.

I can only say it was by luck rather than judgement that I stumbled across this problem, but resetting the dummy vehicle onto the template should resolve the issue once and for all.


Martin Wynne wrote:
I have deleted my previous drivel because I have now reproduced your screenshot:

Bye the way, I didn’t think you went in for drivel. :D

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote:I will get this changed so that when the control template changes the vehicle position is reset.I've changed my mind on this. Resetting the dummy vehicle position could be a nuisance at times.

Instead, I have now limited the travel of the dummy vehicle so that it cannot move much more than one vehicle length beyond the control template boundaries.

I can't think of any good reason to move it further, and if necessary the control template can easily be temporarily extended to allow such movement.

This change will prevent the alarming apparent problem in Brian's original screenshot. :)

In the next Templot2 update.

regards,

Martin.

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16th message | this message only posted: 16 Apr 2012 14:45
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from:
Brian Nicholls
Poole, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: I've changed my mind on this. Resetting the dummy vehicle position could be a nuisance at times.

Instead, I have now limited the travel of the dummy vehicle so that it cannot move much more than one vehicle length beyond the control template boundaries.

I can't think of any good reason to move it further, and if necessary the control template can easily be temporarily extended to allow such movement.

This change will prevent the alarming apparent problem in Brian's original screenshot. :)

Hi Martin,

Just wanted to check, with you new proposal, that the dummy vehicle will appear somewhere near to the template under all circumstances.

The original problem did not occur because of any over-movement of the dummy vehicle, it seemed to happen because the location dimensions of the last known position of the dummy away from the datum point of the previous template, were retained, and when a new template was opened, the dummy vehicle took up a similar position from the datum point on the new (current) template.
Then when the dummy vehicle appeared, well away from the current template datum, it was a question of moving it back onto the current template for checks to be made.
However, it apparently depended upon which way you moved the dummy vehicle for it to follow the correct line or not.


Having said this, regarding your new proposal, my question here is, if the previous template used was a large (long) template, and assuming one had moved the dummy vehicle to the extreme end or just beyond the end, away from the datum point, then will the dummy vehicle appear that same distance away from the datum of the next template opened, even if the new (current) template is much shorter ?

This was the reason I suggested a reset to the datum point on the new (current) template.

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Brian Nicholls wrote:if the previous template used was a large (long) template, and assuming one had moved the dummy vehicle to the extreme end or just beyond the end, away from the datum point, then will the dummy vehicle appear that same distance away from the datum of the next template opened, even if the new (current) template is much shorter ?Hi Brian,

No, the dummy vehicle will always be close to the control template. If it was previously at the far end of a long template it will move back as that template is shortened, or when a shorter template selected. It can never be more than a short distance beyond the end of the template.

It will be impossible to repeat the problem you discovered. If you find that happening it will be a definite bug. :)

regards,

Martin.

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from:
Brian Nicholls
Poole, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: No, the dummy vehicle will always be close to the control template. If it was previously at the far end of a long template it will move back as that template is shortened, or when a shorter template selected. It can never be more than a short distance beyond the end of the template.

It will be impossible to repeat the problem you discovered. If you find that happening it will be a definite bug. :)

Hi Martin,

Many thanks for the very high speed reply. :thumb:

That certainly eases my mind on that score. :)

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

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