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                                       Designing curved double junctions using curving half-diamonds
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 18 Jul 2012 20:48
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from:
acoake
Morpeth, United Kingdom

 

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Hello
I wonder if anyone can help me to design curved double junctions using the new half-diamond facility? I'm still learning Templot and while getting most things sorted out (with much trial and error), I'm not getting good results on my first curved double junction. I've included the current box file to show how I've attempted it so far and the results (not inspiring). Not being a PW expert, I'm not sure of the correct way to go about it and this may be adding to my problems. Any help would be much appreciated. By the way, the overlapping circles at the top are not a mistake - they are my attempt to represent a helix, which I am using to transfer from level to level.
Many thanks in anticipation
Allen Oakes

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Attachment: helixtop_2012_07_18_2022_16.box (Downloaded 213 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 18 Jul 2012 21:29
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Allen,

Before discussing double junctions -- are you sure your 46mm track centres spacing is sufficient clearance for your rolling stock at these radii?

I just did a quick check on your plan using the default vehicle sizes in the dummy vehicle tool, and it's looking too close for comfort:



The usual spacing for 4mm scale at these radii would be 50mm centres.

regards,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 18 Jul 2012 22:58
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from:
acoake
Morpeth, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin,

Many thanks for your very quick response. I used 46mm because I think I picked it up fom one of the many books I have read on building model tracks. However, I believe that I can increase it should it be necessary. I was going to use the tools you provide, but only after I had got something approaching a reasonable plan.

Allen Oakes

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4th message | this message only posted: 21 Jul 2012 23:18
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from:
acoake
Morpeth, United Kingdom

 

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Hi again Martin,

Have now located where I found 46mm from - it is in the Trax2 design software book (in fact it quotes 45mm, so I am wrong even to that!). However, I am increasing to 50mm as you suggest.

On the curved double junctions, I have just discovered the option to "Make Diamond Crossing", which I had completely overlooked. Before you or any other kind soul in this club spend time trying to answer my request, I feel that I should examine this option in much more detail.

Thanks again

Allen Oakes

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5th message | this message only posted: 21 Jul 2012 23:30
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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acoake wrote:I have just discovered the option to "Make Diamond Crossing", which I had completely overlooked.Hi Allen,

There are two such functions, which work differently. :)

Try both of them:

1.  tools > make diamond-crossing menu item.

2. for a background template, peg/align tools > make diamond-crossing at intersection menu item.

As your junction is on a transition curve, it will need some extra adjustments. I'm planning to make you a bit of video showing that.

See also tools > make ladder crossover menu item.

regards,

Martin.

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6th message | this message only posted: 22 Jul 2012 09:36
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from:
acoake
Morpeth, United Kingdom

 

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Martin,

I've read elsewhere on this forum that seem never to sleep. Many thanks for the responses and the additional information. I look forward to the video, whenever you can manage to produce it.

Warm regards
Allen Oakes

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7th message | this message only posted: 10 Jul 2016 18:07
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from:
Gavin Rose
 

 

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Just a quicky. Amaxingly I have been able to make curved double junctions, the tutorials helped here. :)

I've had a few goes at it trying to perfect things and so far I have managed to create the double each end, the issue I am having is being able to create a perfect mirror so they can join up with non wonky straights in between.

Is there a way to select all the track you want, copy it, mirror it then paste it in? I have managed to select track before but it goes red and there seems to be no option for what I am looking for.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Transition curves are also something I haven't figured yet, I can select them and the track changes its form but that is about it.
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8th message | this message only posted: 10 Jul 2016 18:23
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Gavin Rose wrote:Is there a way to select all the track you want, copy it, mirror it then paste it in? I have managed to select track before but it goes red and there seems to be no option for what I am looking for.Hi Gavin,

Select all the templates you want as a group.

Then click the group > create duplicate group menu item.

Then you will probably want to use the SHIFT+CTRL+F7 mouse action (or just press the BACKSLASH key) to move them into clear space where you can see what you are doing with them.

Then to mirror it, click the group > mirror group on X at notch menu item (or Y, as required)*. If you don't position the notch first, you will probably need to zoom out to see it.

Then to join a group of templates onto other templates, you need to use the notch linking functions. More about that here:

 http://templot.com/martweb/gs_geometry.htm#shift_group_notch

*X mirrors about a vertical line through the notch; Y mirrors about a horizontal line through the notch.

regards,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 10 Jul 2016 18:44
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from:
Gavin Rose
 

 

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Hi Martin.


I figured out how to use the G / Group function just before I read your reply but I was having a right pig of a job trying to then move them out of the super imposed position. Didn't know about the Shift+Control+F7. Worked a treat. Many thanks. :)
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10th message | this message only posted: 14 Jan 2017 22:36
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from:
Chris Mitton
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: acoake wrote:I have just discovered the option to "Make Diamond Crossing", which I had completely overlooked.Hi Allen,

There are two such functions, which work differently. :)

Try both of them:


2. for a background template, peg/align tools > make diamond-crossing at intersection menu item.



Hi Martin
I'm attempting to construct an irregular diamond where two plain lines intersect - one is pretty straight, the other on a curve.     Following your advice as above, I made the straight line the control, selected the curved line and clicked as you suggest, i.e. "make diamond crossing at intersection".    This put the notch at the intersection of the two centre-lines, as I hoped it would, but thereafter very little seems to have happened.    Where do I go from there - to create all the necessary wing rails and check rails correctly positioned for the V- and K-crossings?     I can think of a fiddly way of doing it by creating squillions of small partial templates, but is there an elegant way of doing it?

Regards
Chris Mitton


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11th message | this message only posted: 14 Jan 2017 22:53
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Chris Mitton wrote:This put the notch at the intersection of the two centre-lines, as I hoped it would, but thereafter very little seems to have happened.Hi Chris,

So what happened when you clicked the green bar?



You should then have seen something like this:



Now you need to split the underlying template and adjust it to the boundaries (in the next program update coming soon, there will be some additional functions to help with that).

regards,

Martin.

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12th message | this message only posted: 14 Jan 2017 23:21
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from:
Chris Mitton
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Chris Mitton wrote:This put the notch at the intersection of the two centre-lines, as I hoped it would, but thereafter very little seems to have happened.Hi Chris,

So what happened when you clicked the green bar?


You should then have seen something like this:



That's pretty much what I was hoping would happen - but when I clicked the green bar, nothing appeared.....

I think I'll have another go in the morning - but thanks as ever for your very prompt reply.
Regards
Chris



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13th message | this message only posted: 14 Jan 2017 23:55
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Chris Mitton wrote:That's pretty much what I was hoping would happen - but when I clicked the green bar, nothing appeared.....
Hi Chris,

It's always possible that you have found a bug. Please could you post your .box file here? Thanks.

regards,

Martin.

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14th message | this message only posted: 15 Jan 2017 13:52
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from:
Chris Mitton
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Chris Mitton wrote:That's pretty much what I was hoping would happen - but when I clicked the green bar, nothing appeared.....
Hi Chris,

It's always possible that you have found a bug. Please could you post your .box file here? Thanks.

regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin
It's far more likely that I'm trying to do something a bit weird - this morning I created two random intersecting tracks (one straight, one curved), selected the appropriate make diamond crossing tool, and it worked a treat, with all the check and wing rails apparently in the right places.    
What I'm trying to draw is a variation on the GER's infamous, and bizarre, construction at Braintree, but the opposite hand - it's a turnout into a passing loop, but left-handed instead of right-handed as at Braintree, with another turnout on the left (into a goods yard), so it's essentially a tandem with the two turnouts both on the left but in the "wrong" order, therefore the second exit road re-crosses the first one.    I think the point of the arrangement is that the yard entry is now trailing not facing, so it saves an FPL.    I suspect the reason the "make diamond" tool doesn't work is that the diamond is incomplete, there are two K-crossings but only one V.    The attached .box should show you what I mean - I've drawn it with all sleepers omitted for clarity.
I did once manage to create the V-crossing more or less to my satisfaction, by using various rails from two different half-diamonds, so I guess I'll have to plough on that way, fiddly as it is.  Alternatively I could just draw them all in by hand, or even just build the bloody thing using gauges and bits of rail that look about the right length....

Regards
Chris


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Attachment: Fen2_2017_01_14_2240_33.box (Downloaded 37 times)
 
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15th message | this message only posted: 15 Jan 2017 14:28
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Chris,

Is this what you mean?



I notice that your tandem is a type 1, whereas the photo clearly shows a type 2 tandem (second switch is in turnout road of first switch).

You can probably create the far half-diamond using make diamond-crossing at intersection, but for the near one you will need to shorten it to little more than the K-crossings. You may find that adjusting the V-crossing angle on that (F9 mouse action), and possibly changing the hand, may help. Or not. :?

It's such a strange formation that I suspect the only way will be to build it up with partial templates.

I will maybe have a dabble at it later.

regards,

Martin.

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16th message | this message only posted: 15 Jan 2017 17:18
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from:
rodney_hills
United Kingdom

 

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Hello,

Am I right in assuming that the prototype formation pictured is a way to avoid having a facing point, plus FPL etc, for that siding on the left?

Regards, Rodney Hills
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17th message | this message only posted: 15 Jan 2017 17:49
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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rodney_hills wrote:Am I right in assuming that the prototype formation pictured is a way to avoid having a facing point, plus FPL etc, for that siding on the left?Hi Rodney,

That is the usual reason given. It also allows the siding to depart at a much sharper angle than would be the case for a single turnout.

Most likely it is necessary to be a trailing connection for the signal interlocking.

It is a common arrangement for a yard to be accessed via a trailing connection over a diamond-crossing. Here for example is Rubery on the Halesowen Railway:


© D J Norton. Image linked from this excellent site: http://www.photobydjnorton.com

regards,

Martin.
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18th message | this message only posted: 16 Jan 2017 16:46
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from:
Chris Mitton
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Chris,

Is this what you mean?


I notice that your tandem is a type 1, whereas the photo clearly shows a type 2 tandem (second switch is in turnout road of first switch).

You can probably create the far half-diamond using make diamond-crossing at intersection, but for the near one you will need to shorten it to little more than the K-crossings. You may find that adjusting the V-crossing angle on that (F9 mouse action), and possibly changing the hand, may help. Or not. :?

It's such a strange formation that I suspect the only way will be to build it up with partial templates.

I will maybe have a dabble at it later.

regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin
Many thanks - that is indeed the prototype I was attempting to make even more bizarre :roll:

As far as the signalling is concerned, I think mine is still a Type 1 tandem (does it matter?) - the left road of the first turnout is still the main, because that's the way arriving (ie facing) trains will go - but it's curved round until the turnout road is virtually straight, then reverse-curved to become the passing loop.     I guess this will put the switch-blade set in the wrong road - but then the whole thing would need a 10mph restriction anyway to avoid breaking the signalman's arm surrendering the token!

So partial templates it is :( - but I seem to recall, designing another GER special a few years ago, using several partial templates of which at least one was shrunk to a single rail and accompanying check-rail, that there was a menu option somewhere that allowed you to specify which rails of a given template to omit / include - and I can't find this tool in the current version of Templot.   Any clues?

Regards
Chris



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19th message | this message only posted: 16 Jan 2017 16:52
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Chris Mitton wrote:there was a menu option somewhere that allowed you to specify which rails of a given template to omit / include - and I can't find this tool in the current version of Templot.Hi Chris,

do > omit rails and joint marks... menu item, or CTRL+O.

It's a child window, so you can leave it showing while you continue working.

regards,

Martin.

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20th message | this message only posted: 16 Jan 2017 16:55
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from:
Chris Mitton
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Chris Mitton wrote:there was a menu option somewhere that allowed you to specify which rails of a given template to omit / include - and I can't find this tool in the current version of Templot.Hi Chris,

do > omit rails and joint marks... menu item, or CTRL+O.

regards,

Martin.
Wow, that was quick....and blindingly obvious when you think about it
Thanks
Chris


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