Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 09:30 from: John Clutterbuck click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I have aware that TDV used to check the internet connection on startup and I could see the sense in this as it evolved. However, I also recall a statement that the final Templot 2 version would not do this. The latest version seems to me to becoming a more official Templot 2 version but it still includes the internet check on startup. I also note this is covered in the T&Cs. Whilst I agree that we should all be using the latest version the inability to run without an internet connection is very limiting. I often work away from home and with evenings spare and no model to work on, it is one of the best opportunities for me to do design work. Unfortunately I often stay in places without free internet access. I would like to suggest that if Templot cannot confirm it is the latest option at least it should give the user the opportunity to continue working with it. This would perhaps overcome the issue some have had with proxy servers at work - and before you ask we are allowed to use our own computers but getting firewall changes would be nigh on impossible. Regards John |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 12:26 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi John, Templot2 needs a connection only for a couple of seconds, so even where internet access is very expensive, it should not be a problem. As soon as Templot2 is running, you can disconnect. To use your laptop computer where there is no internet connection, please start Templot2 where you do have a connection, and then use the Hibernate function on your laptop. (This doesn't use any battery power, the laptop is turned off with the entire current computer state stored on disk. Templot2 needs internet access only during startup.) regards, Martin. |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 12:38 from: John Clutterbuck click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
You usually have to buy it for a day at probably £15 or more. I appreciate you can start it and then hibernate, however in my experience this cannot be guaranteed to work over several days. Hibernation is also forbidden/blocked by some companies apparently for security reasons, although I appreciate Templot shouldn't be installed on such non-personal machines. Back to my original post - is it now intended to always have the internet check or will it be removed as per the statements made a few months back? |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 12:53 from: Martin Wynne
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John Clutterbuck wrote:Back to my original post - is it now intended to always have the internet check or will it be removed as per the statements made a few months back?Hi John, The internet check will remain while Templot2 is free. My previous statements were made before the decision to make Templot2 free. I'm sorry if that was misleading. If you previously purchased a paid-for version of Templot you can of course go on using that without an internet connection. Internet access is now becoming near universal, and within a few years will certainly be so. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 13:37 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi JohnYou usually have to buy it for a day at probably £15 or more.I have an O2 dongle on Pay As You Go, and that costs about £2 a day. It's rarely used, but it's handy when I do need it. You do, of course, have to pay the initial cost of around £20. This will give you internet access anywhere there's an O2 signal. I've never had a problem with hibernation over long periods of time, but some drivers don't work after hibernation. My main concern really is that for whatever reason the server that Templot checks goes offline. Suddenly I can't access my work except with the paid-for version, which doesn't support many of the features in Templot 2. We were warned not to use TDV for "real" work initially, but then TDV became Templot 2 so it is now used for real work but could fail for reasons outside anyone's control, including Martin's. Cheers |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 14:03 from: Phil O
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I'm going to be in the situation all next week when I visit my parent's in Stourport as I will be hibernating Templot before I leave and will have to stay clear of Sketchboard as it requires a Templot shut down to get it to work again after it locks up. There being no internet connection there for me to use and not previously found any wi-fi connections protected or otherwise. I have everything crossed that I don't need to reboot whilst there. Cheers Phil |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 14:44 from: John Clutterbuck click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Rather than expect people to: a) pay for internet they don't otherwise need; b) hibernate and hope you don't have to reboot all week; c) accept the fact you can't use it and use something else (or go down the pub); why can't it simply warn you that the check failed and allow you to proceed. If the check succeeds and it IS out of date then of course the user should download it. If internet access has become a prerequisite then it might as well be an application that runs in the cloud and then all the install/upgrade issues disappear. John |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 15:23 from: JFS
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Do none of you chaps have 3G phones??? It is easy to set up your mobile phone as a network on your laptop and use that to access the internet. It is not the easiest way to use the internet, but for Templot it is fine. And it works anywhere you have phone access - which in my case has included much of Southern Africa where other options can be limited! Best Wishes, H |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 15:30 from: Paul Boyd
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Do none of you chaps have 3G phones???Er, no! Well, technically, yes, but as that is also on PAYG it costs even more than using the O2 dongle! John said:- If internet access has become a prerequisite then it might as well be an application that runs in the cloud...Not really, although it's a thought. As it is now, it just requires a quick check but presumably if it ran in the cloud it would need to be permanently connected? |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 16:15 from: Phil O
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JFS wrote: Do none of you chaps have 3G phones???No!! I only use mine for text's and emergencies before that I managed to live using a land line only and if me parent's weren't 80 plus I probably wouldn't bother at all as these day's I am a professional driver and I see enough idiots on an almost daily basis using there's whilst driving. Cheers Phil |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 17:23 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Phil O wrote: I only use mine for text's and emergenciesSo I'm not the only one who does that! Except I never bother with text. Have to remember to use it once every 6 months otherwise Orange suspends the account. Re the internet access, I hope we move to a phase when it is no longer needed. It puts me off adding Templot to my laptop, which would be very useful but mainly in places where I don't have internet access. Cheers Nigel |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 17:32 from: JFS
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Paul Boyd wrote:Er, no! Well, technically, yes, but as that is also on PAYG it costs even more than using the O2 dongle!Are you sure about that? For me, the charge is by the KB so Templot would cost almost nothing - though I would not recommend streaming videos! In truth, I have never had to connect as I "never" reboot when I am travelling, and I have got into the habit of keeping Templot running so accidental closures don't happen any more. There, now I have tempted Providence twice in one sentence!! regards, Howard |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 17:56 from: Paul Boyd
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Howard wrote:Are you sure about that? For me, the charge is by the KB so Templot would cost almost nothingEr, no, again! I'm not sure, and O2's website doesn't help! Now that I've reminded myself, it says "£3 per MB up to a maximum of £1 per day". Does that mean I can only have 1/3MB in a day, or I can have many MB per day but only pay £1, or if I use 3kB I only pay tuppence ha'penny? The £3/Mb doesn't seem to make any sense. Given that I'm also in the category of having to remember to use my phone every few months to keep the account active, I don't want to suddenly find £3 knocked off my balance, or even £1!. When I bought the phone, the primary feature for me was a relatively decent camera so when out on my bike, I only need to carry one electronic gadget! But like I said, it's not really the internet connection itself that bothers me, but the fact that one day the server that Templot talks to might not be there, so we're all stuck. Perhaps Martin could reassure us on that point. Life used to be so simple  |
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| Last edited on 26 Jul 2012 17:57 by Paul Boyd |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 21:31 from: Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote:it's not really the internet connection itself that bothers me, but the fact that one day the server that Templot talks to might not be there, so we're all stuck. Perhaps Martin could reassure us on that point.Hi Paul, Templot2 currently checks a second server if the first one fails. However, they are both in the same rack in the same data centre in Columbus, Ohio. I will add a third check on a UK server, in the event the first two both fail. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 22:29 from: John Clutterbuck click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
If you are going to change it, is there any chance you could let it continue in the situation it can't get any response at all? That would solve the problem for at least two of us on this thread. John |
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| Last edited on 26 Jul 2012 22:30 by John Clutterbuck |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 22:45 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi MartinTemplot2 currently checks a second server if the first one fails. However, they are both in the same rack in the same data centre in Columbus, Ohio. I will add a third check on a UK server, in the event the first two both fail.Thanks - that should be safe enough - in the event that both the UK and US servers fail, we've probably got more important things to be worrying about  John:- is there any chance you could let it continue in the situation it can't get any response at all?That would defeat the object of making sure we're all on the same version, which is the purpose of the internet check. For Martin to try to support all the old versions was becoming a nightmare, with tutorials not matching, videos not matching, etc. If everyone is running the same version, only one version of documentation is required. That doesn't help if people still use the paid-for version though, but I guess it's reasonable to ask people to upgrade. Cheers |
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posted: 26 Jul 2012 23:31 from: Martin Wynne
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John Clutterbuck wrote: If you are going to change it, is there any chance you could let it continue in the situation it can't get any response at all?Hi John, I have no plans to do that. It is a condition of use of Templot2 that you allow it to connect to the internet. It is for you to provide the means for that to happen. Users agree the terms of use when installing the program. See: http://templot.com/companion/index.html?terms_of_use.htm regards, Martin. |
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posted: 27 Jul 2012 09:02 from: John Clutterbuck click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin, I am well aware that it is a condition of Templot, however I can't help feeling this is all rather strange. This discussion has revealed that several checks are made to ascertain if Templot is the latest version. It follows that Templot must know the checks have failed. All this means is it cannot ascertain if it is the latest version, it does not know this. It thus decides the program must exit, rather than allow the user (who probably knows it is the latest version anyway) to proceed. Result one frustrated user. Expecting the users to remember to: start Templot beforehand and hibernate daily hoping it and Templot wont crash in the interim; pay for internet,dongles etc., they don't need; or wait a few years until the internet is universal, etc. is in my opinion unhelpful. They can't go back to the earlier versions as this would mean abandoning all the work put into designs using Templot 2. Net result an even more frustrated user. IIRC the objective was to ensure nobody post issues about obsolete versions. As any such posting is via the web it will require an internet connection. The probability is that users will have tried Templot in the interim and thus will know they need to upgrade - and hopefully re check the issue. There is another potential scenario. If something unforeseen was to happen such that the service that support such checks was terminated and perhaps permanently, then at one fell swoop the whole Templot community loses it's favourite tool. Rather than enduring as a legacy to your undoubted skills and all the years of hard work. John |
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posted: 27 Jul 2012 10:41 from: Martin Wynne
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John Clutterbuck wrote:Expecting the users to remember to: start Templot beforehand and hibernate daily hoping it and Templot wont crash in the interim; pay for internet, dongles etc., they don't need; or wait a few years until the internet is universal, etc. is in my opinion unhelpful.Hi John, I'm not expecting users to do that, I have merely explained that such things are possible. Nowadays the vast majority of computer users need an internet connection anyway, and make the appropriate provision. Currently there have been about 750 downloads of the latest Templot2 update, and similar numbers or more for previous updates. So clearly the terms of use for this free software are acceptable to most users. I'd prefer this discussion to terminate. I've made the use of my intellectual property free to the entire world, and I've set the terms of use for that. No-one is under the slightest obligation to use it if they don't want to. Now I just want to spend my time on the technical development. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 27 Jul 2012 10:52 from: Les G click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
John Clutterbuck wrote: Hi Martin, John, What is strange, is the number of posters who wish to apply pressure to Martin to change his carefully considered Terms of Use. Given that Templot is available without charge, that Internet is required to obtain it, and to obtain the excellent support available here. If an internet-check free version were to be issued, it would not be long before there would be a mismatch, and the out of sync user would be cluttering up the fora with another rash of already solved problems. Martin would soon be back to square one.  If a user wishes to access Internet (Templot) whilst travelling, the equipment which may be required to achieve the connection is the responsibility of the user, not Martin. And to address the final senario: If such a catastrophic failure should occur, we would all have a lot more to worry about.  Les G |
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posted: 27 Jul 2012 11:21 from: John Clutterbuck click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Les G wrote: And to address the final senario: If such a catastrophic failure should occur, we would all have a lot more to worry about.At Martin's request I wasn't going to respond any more, however I feel I do need to clarify this point. I don't envisage a catastrophe, just a simply that there may come a time that Martin is unable or unwilling to fund the service any more. |
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posted: 27 Jul 2012 11:34 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Les G wrote: What is strange, is the number of posters who wish to apply pressure to Martin to change his carefully considered Terms of Use.Les I don't think it's applying pressure, more providing feedback. I don't think it's strange either. Computer users are used to deciding whether to upgrade a piece of software or not; it's very common for people to reach a position with software that they're happy with it, it does what they want, and they only upgrade for good reason. Now with Templot the support issue and the problems which may arise may be that good reason. But I think the point that people who can't access the internet are also incapable of flooding the club with queries about out-of-date software is a valid one. Cheers Nigel |
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posted: 27 Jul 2012 14:44 from: Les G click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Nigel Brown wrote: ... But I think the point that people who can't access the internet are also incapable of flooding the club with queries about out-of-date software is a valid one...Nigel, It may be valid but it is not a point I was making. These related issues have already been forum-ed to death. Time we all stopped, as Martin requested. regards to all, Les G |
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