Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 19:39 from: Jim Guthrie
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Martin, I've just started using 2.05D since downloading it and I keep getting unwanted copies of templates after I store them - i.e. after working with a template and storing to background with Ctrl-V, the template stores as normal, then after about a second, a copy appears as an active template. This happens with every template I work with. Is this a bug or a feature?  Jim. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 19:55 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Jim, This is an experimental change in 205d.  see: topic 1988 Previously, after storing a copy of the control template, the control template was automatically hidden and it was necessary to show it again to continue working with it (HOME key). Since that was nearly always wanted, Templot 205d hides it only long enough to see the stored copy, and then shows it again. If you really did want it to remain hidden, you can press the HOME key to hide it again. If you would prefer it not to be hidden at all, on the storage box untick the options > briefly hide control template on store menu option. I've felt for some time that it's confusing for beginners that the control template is hidden on doing a store & background (INSERT key). The effect is that the template has simply changed colour, rather than been stored. We can't not hide the control template on store, otherwise it's not apparent to beginners that anything has happened at all. I've now made a change which I've been intending to try for some time. The control template will remain hidden only briefly, and will then reappear over the background template. You can of course hide it again if you wish (HOME key). For more experienced users there is a new option not to have the control template hidden. It's on the options menu on the storage box. Untick this menu option: 2_172050_560000000.png  This setting is included in the program preferences. Note that even with this option unticked, on a large track plan the control template will disappear momentarily while Templot re-draws the screen with the new background template. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 20:16 from: Alan McMillan
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Hi Martin Is it possible to include an option to hide it until the wipe/copy/delete to control is used? I have to say I find the automatic reappearance of it after a store to background operation quite distracting. Regards Alan |
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| Last edited on 3 Aug 2012 20:16 by Alan McMillan |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 20:28 from: Jim Guthrie
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Martin, Don't like it. One of my main preoccupatuions with Templot has been to avoid unwanted copies of templates and this neww feature certainly doesn't help. Storing to background with the template colour changing was a indication that a template had been saved. I'll go back and use 0.91 since I don't think I'll need any of the latest features for what I'm doing. As a side issue, that's a minor problem with the Templot 2 situation - I can't stick with a previous version if I don't like the "improvements". Jim. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 20:36 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Jim, If you are getting unwanted copies you must be doing something wrong. This change is really very minor and doesn't create any more templates than before. More often than not, after storing a copy of the control template I press HOME to see it again (don't you?), so this change simply does that for you. It's very easy to hide it again if you really don't want to see it -- the INSERT and HOME keys are right next to each other, so after storing & background (INSERT key) it's very easy to wait a second and then press the HOME key. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 20:41 from: JFS
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Martin, I think many people find this business of unwanted templates a bit of a pain - here I am not really talking about this new experimental behaviour (which can be turned off - thank goodness!) but about the "traditional" behaviour also. I have never understood why there "always" has to be a control template and it always seems to me that a better behaviour would be for the "normal" state to be "All templates stored" with a single one selected to the control only when it is desired to manipulate it. Store and background would then cause there to be "no" control. Obviously there might be technical reasons why this is difficult/impossible but for me, this would be a very intuitive way to work. Not sure if others would agree with me of course, but I have lost count of how many newbies post about where did all this extra templates come from! Best Wishes, Howard |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 20:47 from: Martin Wynne
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JFS wrote: I have never understood why there "always" has to be a control template and it always seems to me that a better behaviour would be for the "normal" state to be "All templates stored" with a single one selected to the control only when it is desired to manipulate it.Hi Howard, I tried this with Quick Mode and every single response was that folks hated it. I can't win.  It also makes it much more difficult to work with partial templates, and with situations where you need two templates "selected" -- as for example the make transition function, and the make diamond-crossing at intersection function, and others. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 21:03 from: Robert Preston
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I agree with Howard about the control template. If the template looks like a background template, you know it has been stored. If it looks like the control template I, at least, can often not remember if I stored it or not. If I didn't, I will lose it if I select another template as the control. If I did store it, but am not sure and do another store and background, I end up with excess templates. Incidentally, given the demand for key shortcuts, is there a reason for having two keys (Ins and Ctrl-V) do the same job? Robert |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 21:06 from: JFS
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Are you sure it was that feature which people hated? I confess I did not look closely enough to comment - and I should have done - you might have then got one positive response to add to the confusion! I wonder if making this one aspect "user selectable" might be a way out of your "no win" conundrum? Best Wishes, |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 21:16 from: Jim Guthrie
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Martin, Since way back with 0.74 (IIRC ) I've always had unwanted copies of templates appearing. I've always tried to find out if it was me doing something wrong and I've developed methods to try and avoid their appearance. For instance, one of them is use Delete to Control as much as possibkle so that only one instance of a template exists. The display state of the template has also indicated where that template is - either on the background or in the control state. With the new behaviour of a copy of a stored template appearing as a control template after storing to background, there is the possibility of that copy being stored again - for instance, doing something else for a short while and coming back to the drawing and not remembering if the template had been stored to background, or not. With the small job I started doing this afternoon, I found I was spending more time making sure I was getting rid of these copies than anything else. Jim. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 21:26 from: Martin Wynne
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JFS wrote: Are you sure it was that feature which people hated? I confess I did not look closely enough to comment - and I should have done - you might have then got one positive response to add to the confusion! I wonder if making this one aspect "user selectable" might be a way out of your "no win" conundrum?But it is user selectable ! In 205d, click the orange N tool-button. Click it again to swap back. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 21:30 from: Martin Wynne
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Jim Guthrie wrote: for instance, doing something else for a short while and coming back to the drawing and not remembering if the template had been stored to background, or not.Hi Jim, If you are not sure if the control template has been stored, just press repeatedly (or hold down) the HOME key. Try it now. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 21:48 from: Martin Wynne
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Robert Preston wrote: If it looks like the control template I, at least, can often not remember if I stored it or not. If I didn't, I will lose it if I select another template as the control.Hi Robert, You won't lose it. If it disappears because it wasn't stored, just press CTRL-U, or click the left-arrow tool-button, or hold down SHIFT+CTRL and roll the mouse wheel, or click the do > undo changes menu item. Incidentally, given the demand for key shortcuts, is there a reason for having two keys (Ins and Ctrl-V) do the same job?INSERT became free after a previous function was removed, and seemed the obvious choice for store & background. For the present I have also retained the previous CTRL-V option for existing users who are familiar with it, but I know it causes confusion for some users who know CTRL-V only as Paste in Windows. Which is why I wanted to find an alternative. In due course CTRL-V will probably be used for something else. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 22:38 from: Martin Wynne
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Jim Guthrie wrote: Since way back with 0.74 (IIRCHi Jim, I'd like to understand what you are doing which creates these unwanted templates. If you watch this short video, you will see that no unwanted templates are produced: http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/flash/starter/em_starter.html Perhaps you could say what you are doing which is different? You can reference sections of the video from the elapsed time showing bottom right. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 23:30 from: Martin Wynne
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p.s. In the video, note the sequence at 2mins-15secs, store & background followed by delete to the control on the lower template. This can now be done as a single function -- click on the lower template and then make the control on its menu. This stores the existing control template before deleting the background template to the control. Martin. |
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posted: 3 Aug 2012 23:51 from: Tony W
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Hi Martin. Different people use Templot in different ways. I think the unwanted templates referred to are those unused templates that build up in the storage box but not visible on the screen. These build up as a natural consequence of the way Templot works when a background template is selected using wipe to control. I know it is easy enough to dispose of these by selecting the "Box, delete unused template" menu in the Storage box window although this needs to be used with care. It is also possible to set Templot to load only the used templates on reloading a box file, but not everyone may be aware of these options. On the main topic of this thread, I must say that I spend more time hiding the control template that unhiding it. If a second option were added to the menu to allow the control template stay hidden by default, this would please those of us who prefer to work that way. This is not meant as a criticism as I follow your reasoning with the beginners, but for those of us more familar with it, the greater flexibility would be appeciated. Tony. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 00:40 from: Simon Dunkley
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I like it as it is, Martin, and as you say, it can be switched off. | ||
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 11:03 from: Martin Wynne
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For those who want more options, I have changed the menu: 2_040559_260000000.png  The default setting is to hide the control template only briefly, as in 205d. This option setting is included in your program preferences. Will be in the next update. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 11:55 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin Never had a real problem with the control template. I think I would find it irritating and possibly confusing if it wasn't visible (haven't used Templot when this was the norm), so either hid briefly or hide not at all would be my preferences. The only possible improvement I can think of would be if the control template, after copy to background, shifted away from it's current position, but it's not that much of an issue. Re unwanted templates, I never look in the storage box so don't know if I get any. It doesn't bother me as it's never seemed to matter. It might if I was developing a massive plan, but as there are ways to deal with it it's not an issue. Cheers Nigel |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 11:58 from: Alan McMillan
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That's great Martin...just the job! Regards Alan |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 12:39 from: Martin Wynne
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Nigel Brown wrote:The only possible improvement I can think of would be if the control template, after copy to background, shifted away from it's current positionHi Nigel, I've tried that idea. The problem is that it's a total no-no when working with partial templates. The best solution is for it to jump to one side to reveal the background template, and then gently slide back over it. Unfortunately that requires a fast graphics card and causes a clunky delay on older systems. Having it jump straight back is strangely irritating, and looks like a bug. With partial templates a typical sequence is 1. blank off, omit, or shorten bits of the control template. 2. store it. 3. blank off, omit, or shorten different bits of the control template. 4. store it. and so on. So it's essential that after storing the control template, it remains in place (or returns to it). Even when not using partial templates there are times when you want it to retain its position and alignment -- for example you may want to orbit or snake it to the next position, or use it in a function such as make transition. It's so easy and quick to show/hide the control template by dabbing the HOME key that this discussion does seem a bit pedantic. I did feel (and still feel) that having Templot in effect press the Home key for you to re-show the control template after storing is helpful. But if not, just one dab on the key hides it again. For those who prefer to stay with the mouse, click the pale blue name bar on the info panel to show/hide the control template. It goes grey while the control template is hidden. More concerning is the question of unwanted templates, and I really would like to understand what users are doing to create these. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 13:14 from: JFS
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Martin Wynne wrote: More concerning is the question of unwanted templates, and I really would like to understand what users are doing to create these.Well, that is easy to answer! Open Templot, respond "no" to restore previous. etc, then hit the insert key 5 times - you now have 5 "unwanted" copies of a t55 template! Regards, Howard. |
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posted: posted: 4 Aug 2012 13:20 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi MartinIt's so easy and quick to show/hide the control template by dabbing the HOME key that this discussion does seem a bit pedantic. I did feel (and still feel) that having Templot in effect press the Home key for you to re-show the control template after storing is helpful. But if not, just one dab on the key hides it again.I must admit that I also wondered what the fuss was all about - maybe people didn't know that you could use the HOME key to show/hide templates. They do now I've often been in the situation where I've wondered if I've saved the control to background, so a dab on the HOME key; if the workpad is blank underneath the control then I haven't saved it. If there's a template there than I have! And sometimes I still forget to save  More concerning is the question of unwanted templates, and I really would like to understand what users are doing to create these.I'm not sure we've established exactly where these unwanted templates are. Are we talking about multiple copies of the same template on the workpad, or unused templates in the storage box? I often end up with the latter, but that's because I'll often wipe instead of copy/delete to control if I'm not quite sure where I'm going, so may want to restore a wiped template later. It's a matter of seconds to tidy these up when they're finished with. For multiple copies on the workpad, I think the control disappearing for a second then re-appearing works OK, but maybe a compromise could be for the control to fade out and back in again. That's along the same lines as your suggestion of sliding back, and again looks deliberate instead of a bug. I wonder how much of an issue "older systems" really is these days? If it is an issue, then perhaps the fade option can just be turned off (another option!!) I actually have the "briefly hide" option turned off because I find the instant off, pause, on again disconcerting, although I suspect that's because I've not being seeing it for the past 11 years! A fade will be a lot more familiar, especially to anyone using Windows 7 or Vista. Cheers |
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4 Aug 2012 13:20 from: JFS
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PS, I just discovered that - as you suggested Martin - if you try that in quick mode, you get one zero length template and an error message - I must have more of a play with quick mode!!! H |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 13:21 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi HowardWell, that is easy to answer! Open Templot, respond "no" to restore previous. etc, then hit the insert key 5 times - you now have 5 "unwanted" copies of a t55 template!That's also easy to answer - don't hit the Insert key five times |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 13:40 from: JFS
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Hi Paul, I confess that I try not to - but - for whatever reason I must be doing it. (or some equivalent). Otherwise how else could I end up with dozens of unwanted templates in my storage box. OK it is not a big issue, and clearly there are those - like yourself - who are clever enough to know how to drive Templot without causing this issue, but I suspect there are many - like myself - who for years and years have just been deleting these damn things because we don't know how not to create them. And yes, every now and then we delete too many and end up with a hole in the plan!My problem is that it has never been a big enough issue for me to find out what I am doing wrong so (in that sense) I can't answer Martin's question more helpfully - only to say I am doing whatever it is! Regards, Howard |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 14:00 from: Tony W
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Hi Martin. Thanks for the change, couldn't ask for more. Tony. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 14:13 from: Tony W
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Hi Howard. Yes there are times when I end up with multiple copies of the same background template on the workpad and I am not always sure why. I have occassionally repeated the store and background more than once when I meant to do something else, that is operator error, but it does not explain every occurence. Using copy to the control instead of wipe to control will also leave the original template in place under the new stored background template. I shall have to try to be more observant of how this happens although I do not find it a particular issue as the unwanted ones are easy enough to delete. Tony. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 14:18 from: Martin Wynne
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JFS wrote:but I suspect there are many - like myself - who for years and years have just been deleting these damn things because we don't know how not to create them.Hi Howard, Could it be that you haven't grasped the notion that any function with the word "make" in its name stores the control template for you? So if you do it too, you will get two templates stored. For example, if you have a turnout in the control template and you want to make a crossover, you just click the tools > make simple crossover menu item. You don't store it first. Look for the word make in the menus. In practice when creating a simple track plan, you rarely need to store anything because Templot does it all for you. That's even more true now that a background template's menu includes the make the control menu item, which stores the existing control template first, before doing "delete to the control" -- notice the word "make" there too. In Quick Mode that is the only available option, the others are greyed out. regards, Martin. |
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posted: posted: 4 Aug 2012 14:41 from: Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote:A fade will be a lot more familiar, especially to anyone using Windows 7 or Vista.Hi Paul, I'm afraid a fade would be a massive task in vector graphics because it means redrawing the template many times over with a gradually changing colour set. Fades and blends are normally used with raster graphics rather than vector graphics. A slow slide is much easier, effectively just a variation of the F7 code. Another option would be to reduce the control template length to say 1mm to reveal the background template, and then slowly extend it back to the original length over the background template, i.e. a variation of the F4 code. But isn't it all a bit gimmicky? regards, Martin. |
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4 Aug 2012 14:41 from: Paul Boyd
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Tony and Howard I wonder if this is caused by confusion between Copy to control, delete to control and wipe to control? The three are subtly different, and it did take me a little while to get my head around which does what. Briefly:- Copy to control will do exactly that for a background template. On the screen, the background template appears to have been replaced by the control, but it is in fact still there. If you then press Insert or Ctrl-V, you will end up with duplicate templates. I suspect that this is a prime cause of duplicated templates, so use the Home key to hide the control template before saving. When the template is hidden, pressing Insert or Ctrl-V will still still save the control to the background, so in fact the sequence is: Home, check that there isn't a template already on the background, Insert or Ctrl-V. Delete to control is perhaps more useful as it also deletes from the background (and the storage box). If you then hit Insert or Ctrl-V again, you will only get one template. Wipe to control can be even more useful! It does the same as delete to control, but leaves a copy in the storage box. Again, if you hit Insert or Ctrl-V, you will only get one template on the background, but the original wiped template will also still be in the storage box, shown in blue. This can be useful if you don't want to fully commit to the changes you're doing. The aforementioned Home key is a very useful function as you can quickly see if there's already a template on the background. I will more often than not hide the control with Home before saving anything - that's just a habit I've got into. Another useful feature that I use in conjunction with this is the ability to park a template, so if you have just spent ages working on the control, it can be parked before any other copying, wiping or deleting just as a safeguard, particularly if you're about to tidy up duplicate templates! (Ctrl-P, or do, parking bay, park template) I hope the above is helpful - from my own experience, once I got my head around the three functions, things became much easier with less duplication. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 14:47 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi MartinA slow slide is much easier, effectively just a variation of the F7 code.That would be OK - anything to show that it's a deliberate action. So the control slides away so the user can see that the template has been saved, then slides back to carry on working. This would have to have an option to turn the slide off though once people get used to the idea of what happens when you save a template! The very first post in this thread was consternation over the fact that a template popped up unexpectedly. Another option would be to reduce the control template length to say 1mm to reveal the background template, and then slowly extend it back to the original length over the background template, i.e. a variation of the F4 code.Not sure about that one! But isn't it all a bit gimmicky?I don't think so, in this case, although I've been using Templot for over 11 years without any of this |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 16:53 from: Tony W
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Paul Boyd wrote: I wonder if this is caused by confusion between Copy to control, delete to control and wipe to control?Hi Paul. Indeed, like you it took me a while to appreciate the differences fully. I have explained this in my beginner's guide to 0.91c. In spite this I still find occasionally that I have unintentional duplicate templates on looking at my track plans although it is not always obvious how this has occurred. Tony. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 17:05 from: Tony W
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Martin Wynne wrote: Paul Boyd wrote:Hi Martin.A fade will be a lot more familiar, especially to anyone using Windows 7 or Vista.Hi Paul, As far as my vote goes, I would leave things as they are for inclusion in the next update. The novelty of fancy graphics tends to ware off fairly quickly. Tony. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 17:33 from: Martin Wynne
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Tony W wrote: Paul Boyd wrote:Hi Paul, Tony,I wonder if this is caused by confusion between Copy to control, delete to control and wipe to control?Hi Paul. There is now also a 4th option: make the control which in many cases will be the most useful option and is in fact the only one available in Quick Mode. This does a store & background before doing delete to the control. In Quick Mode this happens automatically when you left-click on a background template. To see the full menu, right-click on the template. Tony's Beginner's Guide is at: http://templot.com/companion/index.html?beginners_guide_tony_wilkins.htm regards, Martin. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 18:46 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi MartinThere is now also a 4th option: make the control which in many cases will be the most useful option and is in fact the only one available in Quick Mode.I'd forgotten than one! Is there a reason why it's separated from the other three options in the menu? (as well as the make as a copy menu item) Hmmm...... I just ended up with duplicated templates playing with those two options I think it was messing about with both make as control and make as a copy in various combinations that did it. Too many options? You can never win!! |
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| Last edited on 4 Aug 2012 18:46 by Paul Boyd |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 19:10 from: JFS
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Paul Boyd wrote: Tony and HowardWell, I think there are two answers to this - the first is that I think I understand the theory, the second is that I often cock it up in practice. Having carefully read all these posts, I realise that the reason I am having more of an issue currently is that I have been using "Make control..." whereas I used to use "Delete...". I am pretty sure that this will lie at the bottom of Jim's original issue also. This has arisen from making an assumption about what Make.. did, rather than reading what it actually does! I suspect that my over use of Store and Background arises from earlier bad experiences of failing to store and background then losing what I had just created. Moreover, people might feel discouraged from using Delete to Control as an ominous sounding warning keeps hitting you every session (until you have bonked it on the head!) This seems to me to be one of those areas where getting into good habits is essential - but I for one am much too impatient for that! Martin, thanks for the explanation of "Make..." I was aware of this, but I am sure that it IS a cause of duplicates since that would seem to be an inevitable consequence of doing [insert] before a "Make..." And of course, "Make..." gets used an awful lot! It is interesting to read through this thread and read all the various experiences - what we are talking about is pretty much the real basics of how to use Templot, yet it is clear that even experienced users have issues with it - albeit that it is an area which has undergone a few changes recently... Having read all the discussion about potential changes, I am not convinced any are needed - especially any graphical gadgets - but we might well be back to the issues of how to help new users get into good habits - after all, to the extent I have an issues, it arose from from the time when I was a "beginner" Best Wishes, Howard. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 20:08 from: Martin Wynne
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JFS wrote:I suspect that my over use of Store and Background arises from earlier bad experiences of failing to store and background then losing what I had just created.Hi Howard, It's quite difficult to lose something by failing to store it. There are 80 slots in the roll-back register, so unless you have made 80 changes to the control template since then, it will still be in the register. Just click repeatedly or hold down the left-arrow tool-button, or press repeatedly or hold down CTRL-U keys, or hold down SHIFT+CTRL and roll the mouse wheel, until you find the lost template. Store it. Then reverse the process with the right-arrow tool-button, or CTRL-D, or the mouse wheel, until you are back to the control template from which you started. Moreover, people might feel discouraged from using Delete to Control as an ominous sounding warning keeps hitting you every sessionOne reason for introducing make the control was to avoid the dreaded word "delete" which I know puts some users off. p.s. Paul, it's separated from the others in the menu only to differentiate between those functions which are available in Quick Mode, and those which are not. (make as a copy does a store & background, and then copy to the control.) regards, Martin. |
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posted: 4 Aug 2012 20:25 from: JFS
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Martin, Many thanks for this. Martin Wynne wrote: It's quite difficult to lose something by failing to store it. I am capable of many difficult things . Pity so many of them are so unhelpful!I just had a little play with "Make control" in the latest version and it is very difficult not to store and background first! I feel a need for a little tutorial video for some of these basics! Best Wishes, Howard. |
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posted: 5 Aug 2012 21:57 from: Tony W
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Hi Howard. Your comment "I just had a little play with "Make control" in the latest version and it is very difficult not to store and background first!" I think contains a truism. One gets into a way of working with a program and this becomes an ingrained habit, these then become difficult to break when a new way of working is introduced. I must confess to not having used the Make control option as I was not sure what it did, I know now! Tony. |
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posted: 8 Aug 2012 12:20 from: Andy Vines
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This may sound a bit daft, but how about when storing the control template the it changes colour to indicate that you have actually stored that one and reverts back to the standard control template colour once you click it again. Not that I really have a problem with this but obviously some users do, and it would in my mind be the least graphically intensive option to implement. |
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