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1st message | this message only posted: 28 Dec 2012 16:40
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from:
Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Have had occasional problems with Templot running on a Mac via Crossover, in that some activities cause Templot to proceed very, very slowly, and occasionally just sit there and hang.

Anyway, all I am trying to do at the moment is specify a new custom rail length and sleeper spacing, and if I can get to the spacing from the first sleeper to the second sleeper, I am doing well. The data entry window is active, and indeed is sitting in front of everything else and completely immoveable.

Earlier I managed this, but when trying to alter the sleeper width to something non-standard, the session just hung on me, and I had to force quit it.

OK, it may be that there is something specific to my installation, but it may indicate something more generic - I recall Martin mentioning something about maths calculations.



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2nd message | this message only posted: 28 Dec 2012 17:58
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Simon,

There is no maths involved when simply entering data.

I have just tried entering custom rail lengths and sleeper spacings in Templot2 on a Crossover/Wine installation on Ubuntu Linux, with no problems at all.

However, I know that the data-entry dialog is in need of a re-write. At present it is unchanged from the earliest days of Templot. While visible it grabs the entire processor time-slice, running the processor at 100% capacity. That's not a good thing to do, although it does actually work ok in the vast majority of cases.

A full re-write of that dialog is on my to-do list, but it's not going to be a 5-minute task.

What other programs are running on the system at the same time, both in Crossover and natively on the Mac? The only work-around I can suggest is to close down as much as possible of everything else, so that only Templot is running.

Is it on a laptop? If the Templot data-entry runs very slow or stops on a laptop the most likely reason is that the increased processor activity is overheating the CPU. Try raising the laptop to increase airflow underneath it, cleaning any fluff from the cooling-fan blades, and in extremis standing it on a pack of frozen peas. :)

I will try to get this fixed, because it is obviously not a satisfactory situation.

regards,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 28 Dec 2012 18:04
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Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,

It is a desktop iMac: not running anything other than finder and mail.
I agree about the 100% processor takeover - this does seem to be the case, because often nothing else will work either!

Simon

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4th message | this message only posted: 28 Dec 2012 18:11
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Simon Dunkley wrote:It is a desktop iMacIn that case I'm a bit puzzled, because running on a Linux desktop here is fine.

Is the iMac known for overheating problems? I know nothing about Macs. Have Apple crammed everything into the smallest neatest box they can find, leaving no room for decent ventilation?

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 28 Dec 2012 21:44
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from:
Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: Simon Dunkley wrote:It is a desktop iMacIn that case I'm a bit puzzled, because running on a Linux desktop here is fine.

Is the iMac known for overheating problems? I know nothing about Macs. Have Apple crammed everything into the smallest neatest box they can find, leaving no room for decent ventilation?

Martin.
Quite possibly.
Let me put it this way, I downloaded a small tool which enables me to control the speed for the HDD, ODD and CPU fans, which has generally seen a marked improvement in things.
the Mac is a few years old now, bought in the days when people got such things as annual bonuses, and has had its memory upgraded to enable the latest OS to run. It may be getting a bit past its best before date, but this particular issue is not new - it had gone away for a while, but has come back, so I finally thought I would mention it!

I also have issues with bringing dialog boxes to the front, for example if I delete a group of templates, I have to acknowledge the 'OK' button, otherwise I have to drag the track pad around the screen to reveal the dialog box which is now no longer at the front!

I also cannot see most of the file details when opening a file, yet can sort them by, for example, the date. That is just weird! I don't use Crossover for anything else, so cannot say if it is unique to Templot or generic to Crossover.

Hope that all helps.

Simon

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6th message | this message only posted: 29 Dec 2012 12:34
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Simon Dunkley wrote:I downloaded a small tool which enables me to control the speed for the HDD, ODD and CPU fansHi Simon,

Is it possible this tool is overriding the normal automatic control of fan speed according to CPU temperature? Have you tried running Templot with this tool disabled or removed?

I also have issues with bringing dialog boxes to the front, for example if I delete a group of templates, I have to acknowledge the 'OK' button, otherwise I have to drag the track pad around the screen to reveal the dialog box which is now no longer at the front! This is a known issue on all Crossover/Linux/Wine installations, see:

 http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26503

There doesn't seem to be an obvious solution at present. I will see if I can find some way round it.

I also cannot see most of the file details when opening a file, yet can sort them by, for example, the date. That is just weird!I'm also seeing this, for all applications I've tried on Wine, not just Templot. At present I can't find any info about this.

I can only add that Templot is a Windows program, and if used outside of Windows there are going to be niggles such as these. By and large it runs very well on Crossover/Linux/Wine and is certainly fully usable for its intended purpose.

regards,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 29 Dec 2012 12:41
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from:
Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote:Is it possible this tool is overriding the normal automatic control of fan speed according to CPU temperature? Have you tried running Templot with this tool disabled or removed?

I can only add that Templot is a Windows program, and if used outside of Windows there are going to be niggles such as these. By and large it runs very well on Crossover/Linux/Wine and is certainly fully usable for its intended purpose.
Hi Martin,

Will try without the fan running - the problem with ventilation on the Macs is not so much getting cool air in, as getting the warm air out, although I have to say that I had the problem before I installed the fan control program - I did this in an attempt to sort out the problem. Putting holes in the obvious places would have spoiled the sleekness of the design, I suspect!

Thanks for the heads-up on the known problems: glad it is not just me!

I agree that my problems arise from using Templot outside of its design parameters, and yes, these small issues aside, it does everything it should.

Simon



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8th message | this message only posted: 29 Dec 2012 16:42
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from:
Trevor Walling
United Kingdom

 

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Hello,
Is it possible you have a overheating problem that is slowing the processor?Do the internals require a good dusting with a vacuum or blowing out with compressed air?
trustytrev.
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9th message | this message only posted: 29 Dec 2012 21:05
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from:
Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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I will try that - it might help.
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10th message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2012 01:11
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from:
Matt M.
Australia

 

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Hi Simon.

I'm not an expert, but have been playing with Apple computers for years.

I run Templot in Windows, on a 17" Macbook Pro, (5 years old).
Other than certain shortcuts not being available there have been no problems.

Templot is not a big continuous CPU or GPU hog and I have not had
overheating problems whilst running it on my laptop.

With Apple over-heating was a major issue with intensive graphics on the
older Macbook Pros, due to there being too much glue placed on the
CPU heat-sink during manufacture.
But as a general rule over-heating is not a major problem on any Apple.
If the system does heat stress it shuts down completely.
The metal casing finish and aluminium integrated chassis on a lot of these
machines means masses of conductive heat coming out.
This is not overheating, it is a by-product of the design.
You don't put an Apple laptop on your lap without insulation...

The fan speeds set by Apple are fine. There should be need to alter these
unless you are intensively gaming.
And then you are better of with a Wintel tower.

A few thoughts:

1). You are running a foreign OS over the Apple OS and hardware system.
This can set up some interesting problems with graphics and kernel panics.

I have a CAD program that continually puts circular lines behind the bottom
layer on the drawing board. Only the circular ones. The straight lines are
fine. If you put a plan in to trace, these lines disappear behind the import
and refuse to come to the front. This is a fault that only shows up on this
program when running in Windows on a Mac.
I brought this to the CAD company's attention.
Still haven't seen a fix after 8 months.

This sounds a little like your problem with dialogue boxes.
Apple uses PDF for display purposes, (this is the reason we don't need
a PDF reader when running Apples OS).
This problem with display and ported Windows programs operating on the
Apple OS is one of the reasons I stay with Bootcamp and the Windows OS.
There is enough issues with that alone.

Simon, you are running a DOS program, (feel free to correct me there Martin),
in a faux Windows OS on top of a UNIX system.
All handle graphics differently. Plus Apples hardware operating choices.
Are there chances of conflict and weird graphic display outcomes?
Quite a lot I think.

2). Which Apple OS are you on. They have all had their problems when
introduced, especially on older machines. Both with the machine architecture
and any legacy programs you are running.

I once walked in to the room after an hour and found my computer's fans
at max and the CPU running at near 100%. Turned out the older version of
Word had problems quitting in the Snow Leopard OS. The OS had been trying
to shut it down for an hour. Every now and then you had to use Force Quit.
Problem went away after updating to the latest version of Microsoft Office.
Currently running Lion.
The latest versions of Safari appear to have some issues with this now and
occasionally stop connecting to the network after a sleep cycle requiring a
reboot of the the Safari program.

When Apple went to the Mountain Lion OS there were a number of problems
for earlier iMacs with the CPU being locked into a continuous processing cycles
by OS and hardware operating requirements.
I believe these have mostly been sorted out now.
But the point is that the if the company that designed the software and hardware
have problems making it work properly then the chances of conflicts across this
set up your using is huge.

3). The thing to remember is that the Apples OS is busy doing all-sorts of things
while you are running the machine. You don't have to be running a program.
Helpd is calling home, Spotlight goes through update cycles, etc.
Conflicts occur and the result can range from a slow responding program right up to
Finder hanging, which is terminal, (no pun intended for the Apple users).

I have one program that does its updates and occasionally it coincides with one of
Apples processes. The net result is that everything tries to port out on the network
at the same time and Finder goes into a kernel panic and hangs, which in the current
UNIX based OS is not supposed to happen.
This is a problem with a third party application.
One I find useful unfortunately, so I just cope at the moment.
This happens about once every three weeks so not so bad.


Simon at the best of times you get weird stuff happening. With any OS from
any company. When I updated to Lion, on bootup the computer couldn't find the OS.
After half a day trying all sorts of reloads and tests I ended up taking it to my
service tech's place. Where it booted up successfully, first time, straight away,
without any help from him. Has been fine ever since.

I think my computer just wanted a trip in the car.

So Simon, the short answer is I think your problem is Crossover.
Tempot works happily on an Apple in Windows using Bootcamp and always has for me.

Hope some of this has been useful.

Matt M.
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11th message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2012 16:37
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from:
Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Well, yes. I had more or less come to that conclusion myself, but I am mindful not only of how helpful Martin has been in the past, but also of how much he values feed-back, as there may, just may, be something he can do about it.

My OS is up to date: I upgraded the RAM to cope with it, but everything else is fine. Re-booting into Windows is not how I wish to do things, and I tried parallels for a while, but each time they "improved" it, it got slower! It was also a more expensive solution to running Templot, hence crossover - which is not without its problems, but I am prepared to live with it.
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12th message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2012 17:34
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Simon Dunkley wrote:but also of how much he values feed-back, as there may, just may, be something he can do about it.Indeed.

My problem here is that I don't have a Mac and know nothing about them. Now that Templot is free I can't really afford to buy one of every different computer system just to test Templot on it. My testing of Crossover/Wine is done on a desktop Linux system, where rather to my surprise Templot performs very well. But as to how Crossover installs Linux and Wine on a Mac, and integrates them with the Mac OS, I have no idea. Both Crossover and Wine are Open Source, so it would be possible to discover such things, but life is too short to do everything.

If the problem is mainly when the data-entry dialog is showing, I know what the problem is and what needs doing to correct it. That will definitely get done.

If Templot runs slow or hangs at other times, it's more problematic. If you can provide a recipe of instructions which causes the same thing to happen on my Linux system, I can probably fix it. But if the problem is Mac-specific it is unlikely I can do much about it.


Matt wrote:
Simon, you are running a DOS program, (feel free to correct me there Martin)Not too sure what you mean there Matt. Templot uses the Win32 API like most other Windows applications. Wine implements its own version of most of the functions and common controls.

regards,

Martin.
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13th message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2012 17:55
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from:
Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Martin,

The problem only happens when I amd doing data entry operations.

Like you, I reckon that somewhere deepdown in Crossover/Wine/Linux there is an answer, but life is defintelu too short - I spend too much time in front of computers as it is!

Thanks for putting this into your development schedule - I am very grateful as this is an annoying issue entirely down to how I have implemented Templot. All I (no one else!) need to do now is sort out getting the pdf driver to work in my configuration, and I will be happy.
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14th message | this message only posted: 31 Dec 2012 02:09
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from:
Matt M.
Australia

 

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Hi Martin, Simon.

Martin when I stopped doing any programming, (C, C++ and some UNIX),
Windows sat on the MS-DOS system.
So I keep referring to Windows as DOS.
(I know it's not, just a really, really bad habit).
I have no idea where Microsoft are up to with Interfaces anymore,
that's why I suggested you would probably want to correct me.
Never really looked at Wine. I've read that its a compatibility layer
not a virtual emulator but wouldn't it still add to the CPU's work load?

I just thought you might like to know some of the problems with
a supposedly stable platform such as the current crop of
Apple operating systems. Apple hasn't had a release
for a while that hasn't had some sort of cock up built in that
they have had to correct, leaving owners to cook up temporary
fixes in Terminal. (That is something I no longer like to do).
And they design and own the OS and the hardware.
So god help a third party provider.

There was something earlier in the year regarding an Apple
update and and a problem with Crossover and games so maybe there is
some run on from that.

Also as you both were considering heat issues and CPU loading
leading to slowdown and lockup, that in my experience Templot
itself simply doesn't have that effect on Apple computers.

In fact the only time I've had Windows in Bootcamp hang was when
I was running a game with high graphic requirements in
XP emulation mode. At the same timeMicrosoft software update
kicked in and the security program decided to scan the drive.
All too much. It froze. 20 minutes to close down the game,
gain control of the GUI, (I lost the mouse and keyboard),
and slowly shut it all down.
Templot doesn't come close to causing that kind of chaos.

But weird graphics quirks with foreign programs running on
Apple's OS do seem quite common; in varying degrees.
There is seems to be some bit of code that bites programmers
when it comes to display issues on Apple computers when
porting programs.
So far I've not noticed anything horribly wrong with Templot though.

I have never expected you to support Apple computers Martin.
That opens a whole new area of garbage to deal with,
including Apple's "closed shop" arrangements.

And I'd like to add; not only do you like your feedback,
your tech support is brilliant and shames many much larger outfits
with its speed and care. So thank you for the trouble you take.

Simon I can appreciate that you prefer not to have a separate
boot-up OS for Templot. It is inconvenient and I'm not
fond of emulation/compatibility layer programs either.
In an emergency they are fine, but long term... I just
find too many problems cropping up.

With that in mind I am hoping to migrate the Windows component
to a separate machine in the next 12 months.
This was only ever supposed to be a temporary arrangement.

Regards, Matt M.
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15th message | this message only posted: 31 Dec 2012 10:58
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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when I stopped doing any programming, (C, C++ and some UNIX), Windows sat on the MS-DOS system.Those days have long, long gone :D  I think Windows 3.1 might have been the last version that did that!

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16th message | this message only posted: 31 Dec 2012 11:57
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from:
Matt M.
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Yes Paul. And along with the gout it makes me feel old :(
Researching NSWGR in the 1800's makes me feel young though:D
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17th message | this message only posted: 27 Jan 2013 12:26
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dharma66
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Just to mention, I'm running templot 2 on a mac via Wine, and I have the exact same problem with the data entry dialog.

Templot runs absolutely perfectly (a testament to good clean coding - I've seen few programs run so well out of the box on OSX/Wine), but this one dialog, every time I display it, the whole thing grinds to a halt.

For clarity, it happens when the only programs running (user programs) are X11, Wine and Templot. As soon as the dialog opens, the CPU usage starts to creep up until one core is it 100%, where it will sit for as long as I'm prepared to wait (an hour or so is the longest I've left it).

Is there any ETA for a fix? I don't intend to put on any pressure - I appreciate this is free software and seriously complex at that - but if it is going to be a couple of months or more, I'll pick up a cheap Windows laptop so I can progress with what I want to do with the tool.

Thanks
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18th message | this message only posted: 27 Jan 2013 12:49
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from:
Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Thanks for that.

On a parallel note, I have recently acquired a "hand-me-down" iPad (as in original iPad, not a 2 or a 3) and have installed PocketCloud on it, which means I can run Templot on a tablet. It is a bit hairy - response times can be a bit slow, and a mouse is a better idea than using the touch screen - but it is an interesting experience, and means I can be more sociable by sitting in the living room whilst controlling the mac which is upstairs in the spare room.
It was free, too.

Simon
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19th message | this message only posted: 27 Jan 2013 20:33
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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dharma66 wrote:Is there any ETA for a fix? I don't intend to put on any pressure - I appreciate this is free software and seriously complex at that - but if it is going to be a couple of months or more, I'll pick up a cheap Windows laptop so I can progress with what I want to do with the tool.Hi,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

There wasn't an ETA because although I've been aware of this issue for a long time, it hasn't actually caused any problems in Windows. Nor seemingly on Linux(Ubuntu)+Wine -- at least not on my system.

Now that I know that it's causing problems on Macs, I will move it up the list.

The data-entry dialog is almost unchanged since I first wrote it 15 years ago. It was done as a direct port to Windows from Templot in GFA-Basic/Gem and I tried to match the original working and appearance as closely as possible.

It needs a complete rewrite to bring it up to date, but that's a big task which I've always avoided on the "if it ain't broke..." principle. :)

But now that I know it is broken, I will try to find a short-term fix without doing a complete re-write at this stage. Possibly a Wine-specific change.

I will try to get that done within a few days.

regards,

Martin.

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20th message | this message only posted: 28 Jan 2013 11:18
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JFS
United Kingdom

 

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Wow - GEM! The first GUI I ever used on an IBM PC - when Bill Gates was still in UI nappies and MACs had monochrome screens!

Those were the days...

Best wishes,

Howard
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Martin Wynne
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JFS wrote: Wow - GEM! The first GUI I ever used on an IBM PC - when Bill Gates was still in UI nappies and MACs had monochrome screens!Hi Howard,

There was an earlier still version of Templot running on a 6502 8-bit Basic interpreter. The code for that contained the ASCII string "(c) William Gates". :)

I still have a copy somewhere. On a 5" floppy disk probably. :(

Martin.

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Nigel Brown
 

 

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JFS wrote: Wow - GEM! The first GUI I ever used on an IBM PC I used GEM on an Atari, with a monochrome screen. A nice machine, one of the best screens around, and I liked GEM. Unfortunately Tramiel brought the machine to market then sacked the development team, so that the machine never went any further.
Nigel

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Martin Wynne
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Nigel Brown wrote:I used GEM on an Atari, with a monochrome screen. A nice machine, one of the best screens around, and I liked GEM.Hi Nigel,

Ditto and likewise -- it was on the Atari ST that Templot first became a proper program. I agree about the screen.

There is some ancient history about Templot on this page:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot_history.htm

Written when Templot was first released in 1999. And that page itself is now ancient too.

Martin.

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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Nigel Brown wrote: JFS wrote: Wow - GEM! The first GUI I ever used on an IBM PC I used GEM on an Atari, with a monochrome screen. A nice machine, one of the best screens around, and I liked GEM. Unfortunately Tramiel brought the machine to market then sacked the development team, so that the machine never went any further.
Nigel
I remember GEM being used on the PC's controlling professional video editing setups which we had in our post production setup.  At that time my PCs were a Compaq desktop running DOS and a Compaq lunchbox portable running DOS,  but with Windows versions of Word and Excel which ran on a runtime version of Windows 3.  I've still got the laptop upstairs - might try and run it up and remind myself of the times - 1990/91. :)

Jim.

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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: Simon Dunkley wrote:
I also have issues with bringing dialog boxes to the front, for example if I delete a group of templates, I have to acknowledge the 'OK' button, otherwise I have to drag the track pad around the screen to reveal the dialog box which is now no longer at the front! This is a known issue on all Crossover/Linux/Wine installations, see:

 http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26503

There doesn't seem to be an obvious solution at present.

I will see if I can find some way round it.
Hi Simon,

Sorry, I can't. :(

Or at least, not without re-writing vast chunks of Templot with possible negative impact on the way it runs under Windows.

The best I can do is to provide a warning so that users of Crossover/Linux/Wine are aware of the issue:



It's not fatal -- if you do accidentally click off a modal dialog, simply restore down or minimize the trackpad window so that you can see the dialog again and complete it.

I have now re-written the data-entry dialog to fix the problem causing excessive CPU activity. I'm hoping to upload a Templot update shortly. :)

regards,

Martin.

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Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Thanks, Martin.

I await questions asking what "modal" means, despite the fact you have explained it! ;)

Simon
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Simon,

There is a new program update now available, version 206d.

I have re-written the data-entry dialog to fix the problem. :)

Please everyone give it a good bashing and report any problems  -- e.g. try entering invalid data such as a radius of zero, or a negative timber width, or requesting a pre-set when none is available:



1. enter the required data for each item in the white panel on the highlighted line.

2. click the ? info button on each line for information and explanation about each item.

3. click the enter button or press the ENTER key on the keyboard to enter the data and move to the next item.

4. click the more info button or press the F1 key to see general information about all the items.

5. to amend previously entered data, click on it.

6. for detailed notes about using this dialog, click the ? help button.



Download:  http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=1500&forum_id=18

regards,

Martin.

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Simon Dunkley
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Hi Martin,

I have tried to break it, but so far have failed joyously!

Thanks for doing that - makes a big difference.

Simon
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Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Still haven't broken it, but just upgraded to OS X Yosemite, and also upgraded Crossover to version 19. Everything still works fine, but the Program Panel is not going into the background, and cannot be minimised. I can re-size it to make it smaller and less obtrusive, but it is an annoyance.

And yes, I know, one should only perform one upgrade at a time, followed by a full test, etc... Life's too short...

Simon
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Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Update: clicking on the Trackpad pushbutton sent it to the background. It used to go to the background by clicking on the trackpad directly.

No problem, but the slight change in behaviour might be of interest to you.

Simon
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Martin Wynne
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Hi Simon,

Thanks for that.

If Crossover/Wine has decided to change the Window stacking behaviour there isn't much I can do about it. The standard Windows behaviour is that clicking on an overlapping window brings it to the front, unless the current window is showing modal, or is set to StayOnTop -- neither of which applies to the program panel.

I know that Wine does not (or did not) support modal windows, and this can cause problems in some parts of Templot if you mis-click off a dialog. Maybe they have tried to fix that?

A change which I made a few versions ago may be affecting the issue -- the first time the program panel appears in front of the trackpad the red X is omitted from the top border of the program panel (because clicking it quits Templot). If the program panel is later shown by clicking main > program panel the red X is restored. Does your problem apply in both cases, or only when the program panel is first showing?

regards,

Martin.
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Simon Dunkley
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Hi Martin,

Thanks for explaining that.

The red cross does appear when accessing via the main menu, but the problem of it not going away automatically is still there, but clicking the trackpad button does send the program panel to the background, so no big deal.

Hope that helps - and I hope any other Mac&Crossover users pick this up!

Simon
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