Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 27 Jan 2013 19:55 from: dharma66
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Hi, Firstly, apologies if this is not the correct forum for these questions... I'm just getting into rail modelling, though I do have a fair amount of experience modelling other subjects. Right from the start, I wanted to model my local station, which was demolished when I was two years old. The station was a branch of the LYR from Middleton Junction to Middleton. I've spent about 6 months on research so far (having no previous knowledge of railways), and over that time, my ambition has grown somewhat. I'm currently thinking I'll be modelling in 2FS with hand built permanent way. This will be a very long term project, involving kit and scratch building locos and stock, and, first thing, fitting out my garage as a suitable space. The garage refit is actually progressing, and I've acquired a couple of donor chasses for locos, so I'm starting to think it may actually happen... Ideally, I want to model as close to prototype as is absolutely possible. This is the prototype layout. It's upside down, because thats the way it will be built, with the top if the image butting up to the garage wall. 2632_271434_550000000.png  Of the four lines that run out at left, the central two are the actual branch lines up to the Junction, and the outer two are headshunts for the yards, and terminate within the blanked out white triangle. At scale size, from the middle of the large crossroads at right, to the end of the headshunts at left translates to 16 feet. The space I have is only 18 feet, and I will need some fiddle yard at left. Probably a minimum of five feet? This means I need to cut out some length in above plan. As far as I can see, the only real opportunity to save space is to reduce the distance between the end of the scenic area at left and the first turnout on the bottom branch line, and shorten the headshunts at left, shifting the mill to the right a little. Maybe also to shorten the lengths of goods sidings a little, and the station platform a little (which I'm not keen on). I have, then, two questions. Firstly, is there anything on the plan that presents special difficulty from the perspective of laying out, with templot, as close to the plan as possible? (Please note, I haven't tried it yet, because I only have a Mac, and I'm having some difficulty with Wine when trying to perform certain actions in templot.) For example, the turnouts for the goods sidings on the upper line, whilst they look quite shallow, look like they overlap somewhat Secondly, are there any other ideas that could be employed for shaving 15-20% off the length of the plan, ideally without loosing any sidings. Many thanks for reading, and if I am in the wrong forum, please feel free to ignore  The full-size scan is at: gallery/2632/original/2632_271434_550000000.png |
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posted: 27 Jan 2013 20:20 from: Rob Manchester
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Hello, An interesting idea for a layout. If you are new to railway modelling you may not yet have got copies of suitable reading material regarding layout planning. There are many books available that discuss fitting layouts into domestic spaces, size compression, operational methods etc etc. These will contain much of value to you if you are new to this area and could save you making mistakes. Scratchbuiling locos in 2FS as part of an initial introduction to railway modelling is certainly brave. What loco classes have you found you will need ?? What period/date are you planning ? You must get a copy of the recently published book on track that concentrates very strongly on 2FS systems........that is if you haven't already. .....and sign your name on your next post too?  Rob |
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posted: 27 Jan 2013 21:45 from: dharma66
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Hi Rob, Thanks for replying. So far I have half a dozen or so books on layout planning, baseboard building etc, but none of them cover the topic of trying to model a prototype, or how to compact a prototype into available space. If you or anyone can recommend one, that would be really great, and would save me continuing to buy books at random! I do have the new 2FS Track book, and I have to say I think it is really rather good. I'm about half way through it, and have learned loads, though I know there is a lot yet to learn. I do appreciate I'm setting off on quite an undertaking, but I'm in no hurry. Six months in and only just starting to think about the beginnings of construction. It will probably be another year before I start building baseboards, and if the whole project lasts ten years or more, then that suits me fine! As for loco classes, for the line and the time (ca1922) I'm looking at Barton-Wright 0-6-2T (LYR class 22), and Aspinal 2-4-2T (LYR class 6), 0-6-0ST (LYR class 23) and 0-6-0(LYR class 28) tenders. Possibly also Aspinal 1008 class (Hughes class 5), Aspinal 0-6-0 LYR class 11 (Hughes class 27). Possibly others - I'm still trying to establish exactly which classes worked this line, but may never get a definitive answer... Also, with some license and because there is a kit available, the Hughes railmotor (class 1 - I did read somewhere that two of them worked this line for a while, but can't now find the reference). Rolling stock would be largely Manchester and Oldham Wide Bodied carriages, with bits and pieces of old stock dating as far back as 1880 or so. Goods stock would be largely 5 plank private owner wagons servicing the local cotton and coal trades, again with bits and pieces of other stuff. So far, I have a Farish GP tank, which I will try to convert to 2mm wheels, and will then use for an aspinal 0-6-0 kit (though the kit is N, not 2mm) that I'm waiting delivery of, and I have a Langley Railmotor kit, for which I'm waiting delivery of a GP40 chassis from the States (found on eBay). So, my short term plan is to build a small loop of N track to test eBay purchases before fiddling with them, and loop of 2mm track to test them post fiddling, and for testing scratch builds. In the meanwhile, I will be alternating between kit bashing, garage bashing and layout planning. So all will proceed slowly, though in parallel. Oh, and book bashing, because I still have a ridiculous amount of learning to do - which is one of biggest attractions of the proces. Not to mention wrestling with Templot, which at present I can see is a magnificent tool, but I'm at the start of what appears to be a steep learning curve... Again, thanks for reading this far if you have! -- Phil |
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posted: 27 Jan 2013 22:35 from: Rob Manchester
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Hi Phil, I have always liked the books on layout design by Iain Rice. If you search Amazon's book section with his name there are a few kits. Realistic Railway Modelling: Layout Designand Approach to Model Railway Layout Design: Finescale in Small Spacesare both excellent in my view and although he fav ours very rural branch lines and light railways much of the information about layout presentation and design is applicable to many layouts. If you can get to a model show where there is a bookdealer you can often have a quick flick though which often gives an idea if the contents are suitable for your taste. I like the 2mm track book too although I model in larger scales. You have obviously done your research on the stock for the layout although I may have slid the date forward a year or so to give more choice in the loco and stock liveries after the 1923 grouping took place. Rob |
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posted: 27 Jan 2013 22:42 from: dharma66
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Hm. That's not a bad idea. I did want to do pre-grouping for the rarity of it, but you are right. In 1923/4, there must have been a mix of LYR and LMS stock. Definitely food for thought! Cheers! -- Phil |
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posted: 28 Jan 2013 09:38 from: stuart1600
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dharma66 wrote: Hm.Phil, You may already be aware of this, but if not, then you should consider joining the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Society - without actually checking back numbers I've a feeling that Middleton has figured in their various publications. The Society is interested in the LYR lines from inception to the current day, so if you move into the Grouping era the society is still relevant to you. For the record my own interests are LMS late 1930s, (ex LYR/MR, central Lancashire), in 0 gauge (when I find a house/shed big enough!!!) http://www.lyrs.org.uk for the Lanky, or contact me via the private message link if you want more detailed info. Kind regards, Stuart |
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posted: 28 Jan 2013 13:00 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Phil Practical thing. How are you going to control the turnouts? Bear in mind that you'll probably have to get at the underside of the baseboard for installing turnout control, and for general wiring, and crawling under a baseboard to do fiddly things can be a pain, literally! When you've decided, try it out on your test track. One option is to divide the baseboards up into manageable units which can be moved, e,g, turning on side to get at the underside of the baseboard. Not easy with your plan, although possible, and it would require a high degree of accuracy in aligning the units, particularly in 2fs. This would also make it easier to lay track and do the scenic bits. Nigel |
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posted: 28 Jan 2013 19:06 from: dharma66
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Stuart: I had seen L&YRS, but hadn't really figured out what it was about. I find the website is a bit strange, and don't really get what it's about from it. I have their publication "Middleton Branch", though, which is excellent! Nigel, yeah. I was hoping to use low speed switch motors, controlled from DCC, but there are a lot of points in close proximity. I may need some subterranean point rodding I had also wondered about hinging the entire layout at the back wall. This would allow me to build the baseboard as a single unit, making it nice and flat, and then be able to lift the whole thing to access the underside during construction, and by removing a few bits of scenery (the big mill, some terraced houses), and all stock etc, be able to lift it for bigger jobs post construction, I realise it would be heavy, but could get some helping hands if needed, though I do still go to the gym now and then I'm not intending moving it, so I don't really want to get into worrying about lining up sections.Rob: I've ordered both of those books, thanks, plus one he's written about etched loco construction! By the by, I received my Aspinal kit from Lytchett today, and it looks very nice indeed. Very fine white metal casting, best I've ever seen I'd say. I just want to test the chassis now before I begin to butcher it, and I may get chance at the club tonight! Many thanks for the input everyone! Cheers Phil |
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posted: 28 Jan 2013 20:06 from: stuart1600
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dharma66 wrote: Stuart: I had seen L&YRS, but hadn't really figured out what it was about. I find the website is a bit strange, and don't really get what it's about from it. I have their publication "Middleton Branch", though, which is excellent!Phil, I must admit I don't use the website myself, happy just to read the magazines and newsletters which are full of information about the Lanky. Earlier you mentioned about not being certain what locos and stock would have been seen on the branch - I'm sure an enquiry to the LYRS would produce some detailed information about likely stock, if not actual listings of what was there at a particular date! Some of the members do have a phenomenal knowledge, and/or have done extensive research. May still be worth sending an enquiry in even if you don't plan to join. All the best, Stuart |
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posted: 28 Jan 2013 21:19 from: dharma66
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Hi Stuart, That sounds great. To be honest, the reason I was mainly put off joining is that you have to download a form, fill it in with a pen, and send it with a cheque. I don't have a cheque book any more, and haven't written cheque in about five years! I keep meaning to try to get to the bank to ask for a cheque book, but never seem to have the time. The same goes for the 2mm association. I ve been wanting to join that for months, but they only accept cheques too! Guess I should really try to make the effort... Phil Edit. On checking (no pun intended), it turns the 2mm association accept cards...but you still. Eed to post the forms using Victorian technology. Still, means I can least join them! |
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| Last edited on posted: 28 Jan 2013 21:24 by dharma66 |
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28 Jan 2013 21:24 from: John Arkell
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If you email the society and ask for the account number you will probably be able to do a direct credit by internet banking. We do this for the South Eastern & Chatham Society of which I am currently membership secretary. We also still accept cheques and standing orders for those members who don't have or don't trust the internet. Regards John Arkell |
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posted: 29 Jan 2013 11:06 from: GeoffJones
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dharma66 wrote:The same goes for the 2mm association. I've been wanting to join that for months, but they only accept cheques too!As you pointed out in your addendum we do accept cards for membership in the 2MM Association now. The reason that you have to submit membership requests and purchases by post is that there are very strict regulations about cards. We are not allowed to hold your card details on a computer; nor would you want them held on a possibly insecure computer! Large organisations and companies can afford the overheads of very large secure computer systems and Verified by Visa. For the 2MM shop for the rail and wheels etc that you will be needing we also take PayPal. I think you will find that arrangements like this are typical of many small organisations. The overheads of full scale systems for cards are far too high. Geoff |
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posted: 29 Jan 2013 11:16 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Geoff, Sending card details by post seems even less secure.  PayPal is much safer and you don't need a PayPal account -- you can pay via PayPal with your card. If you accept PayPal for purchases why not for membership? At its most basic, Phil could send you a scan of the membership form by email, with payment via PayPal. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 29 Jan 2013 12:19 from: GeoffJones
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Hi Martin I have not been directly concerned with these arrangements but I think it is a matter of getting things sorted out bit by bit. I have just checked our website and I see that PayPal is now available on request. We have not had PayPal in place for very long and we need to be sure that our procedures are working properly before applying it across the board. There are different people involved in membership and shops. With regard to relative safety I'm not convinced that a letter is less secure than a computer on which data might remain for years. Neither of them is very good. However, we don't have a choice there, Visa etc veto card data on computers for people like us. Geoff |
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posted: 29 Jan 2013 12:27 from: Martin Wynne
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GeoffJones wrote:With regard to relative safety I'm not convinced that a letter is less secure than a computer on which data might remain for years. Neither of them is very good. However, we don't have a choice there, Visa etc veto card data on computers for people like us.Hi Geoff, With PayPal you don't need to talk to Visa or pay their annual fees. PayPal do all that, and you don't even see the card details. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 30 Jan 2013 20:34 from: dharma66
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L&YRS and 2mm Association membership requests were posted today after a concerted effort to find a cheque book and a couple of envelopes. | ||
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posted: 8 Feb 2013 21:16 from: Martin Wynne
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dharma66 wrote: So far I have half a dozen or so books on layout planning, baseboard building etc, but none of them cover the topic of trying to model a prototype, or how to compact a prototype into available space. If you or anyone can recommend one, that would be really great, and would save me continuing to buy books at random!Hi Phil, You might like "Historical Railway Modelling, a Personal View" by the late David Jenkinson. Pendragon, 2001, ISBN 1899816100 I don't know if it is still in print new, but there are several copies listed on AbeBooks: http://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/isbn/1899816100/ The book is biased towards the Midland Railway rather than LYR, and especially the Settle-Carlisle line, but it includes lots of track plans and ideas for layout planning based on prototype locations. Plus good advice on researching a layout and practical experience of building and operating a prototypical model railway. The book is a good read and contains much to inspire a newcomer to the hobby. David Jenkinson was a well-known and respected author and modeller; his layouts became known to and admired by many modellers through his writings about them in the model magazines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Jenkinson regards, Martin. |
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posted: 9 Feb 2013 21:15 from: Simon Dunkley
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Barry Norman's second book, and parts of his first, cover this to some extent, but to be perfectly frank, there is an art to selective compression, and part of the art comes from looking at others' layouts, and part through practice. Ultimately - and I agree with Martin about David Jenkinson's book being a good starting point - I am not sure this is something which a single book can teach anyone. And unfortunately, like most things in life, some people are more naturally gifted than others, and the rest of us can only make some headway against this via hard graft! Simon |
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