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topic: 2253Brighton: struggling with a tandem turnout
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posted: 7 Jul 2013 19:34

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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I would be grateful for some help please.... I have been tearing what's left of my hair out with what should be a very simple set of templates...
Six roads of the engine shed are fanned out from two sets of three way points and it's taken me days to work out the geometry. I have mastered one three way point (and discovered along the way that the OS map and what's on the ground aren't necessarily congruous! The OS plan shows the road passing the wheel lift straight, but photos show this to be S curved as I have laid them out here - I'm happy with the resulting templates) but the second one is eluding me. The problem is that the two turnouts seem to be S shaped as shown on this image...1876_071428_480000000.png1876_071428_480000000.png
Unfortunately, the water point icon hides the crossing point but the real problem seems to me the length of the lead in both turnouts. If you take the left most turnout, it is approached on a left hand curve through the switch and emerges on a right hand curve at the crossing.
I've followed Martin's video to the letter, but I can't seem to make it work for this. Any advice very gratefully received so that I can finish off the trackplan and get on with building the baseboards!

Regards
TH
Attachment: attach_1622_2253_trackpad_screenshot_2013_07_07_1918_32.png     1211

posted: 7 Jul 2013 21:56

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Tony,

Can you post the BGS file and the SK81 file (from C:\TEMPLOT_DEV\SHAPE-FILES\ )?

(That will need two replies, one for each file.)

It's difficult to advise without having the scaled image.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 8 Jul 2013 03:07

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Tony,

I rather doubt that the rail lines shown on the OS map should be relied on too closely. The first switch has no diverging road shown.

I made the entirely arbitrary assumption that the left-most road is the main road, and that it is a common type 1 tandem (i.e. second switch in main road of first switch). The only way to match the rails as drawn is to put the whole thing on a transition S-curve, which seems a bit unlikely. I think it might be better to straighten it out and adjust the turnout on the right accordingly but that is up to you.

Here's a quick stab at it on the S-curve. It needs some further splitting out of partial templates, but there is no point in my doing any more on it or posting the box file until you provide the scaled image -- I simply scaled it by eye:

2_072132_220000000.png2_072132_220000000.png

It looks a bit odd, but I think it is doable in P4. There is some fine tuning of check and wing rails needed for running clearances -- the 1:6 V-crossing is nearer the running rail than is strictly desirable.

The first switch is a 12ft RH straight switch leading to a 1:6 V-crossing.

The second switch is a 15ft RH straight switch leading to a 1:8.5 V-crossing.

The middle V-crossing is about 1:11. It needs a bit more work because of the transition curve.

p.s. It is not a "point". It is a "turnout", or in this case two turnouts in tandem. A "point" in railway terminology is a single switch blade, and two of them make a "pair of points". I have edited the topic title accordingly. :) 

regards,

Martin.

posted: 8 Jul 2013 09:33

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Are there no photos of this area?

Howard

posted: 8 Jul 2013 10:46

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Tony,

I rather doubt that the rail lines shown on the OS map should be relied on too closely. The first switch has no diverging road shown.

I made the entirely arbitrary assumption that the left-most road is the main road, and that it is a common type 1 tandem (i.e. second switch in main road of first switch). The only way to match the rails as drawn is to put the whole thing on a transition S-curve, which seems a bit unlikely. I think it might be better to straighten it out and adjust the turnout on the right accordingly but that is up to you.

Here's a quick stab at it on the S-curve. It needs some further splitting out of partial templates, but there is no point in my doing any more on it or posting the box file until you provide the scaled image -- I simply scaled it by eye:

2_072132_220000000.png2_072132_220000000.png

It looks a bit odd, but I think it is doable in P4. There is some fine tuning of check and wing rails needed for running clearances -- the 1:6 V-crossing is nearer the running rail than is strictly desirable.

The first switch is a 12ft RH straight switch leading to a 1:6 V-crossing.

The second switch is a 15ft RH straight switch leading to a 1:8.5 V-crossing.

The middle V-crossing is about 1:11. It needs a bit more work because of the transition curve.

p.s. It is not a "point". It is a "turnout", or in this case two turnouts in tandem. A "point" in railway terminology is a single switch blade, and two of them make a "pair of points". I have edited the topic title accordingly. :) 

regards,

Martin.
Ah, that's my signalling background coming forward, Martin! We always used to refer to them as 'points' 'cos that's what was written on the signal lever or when I was in Control the telephone call 'we've got a derailment at number 14 points'! Turnouts is what we asked the junior railmen to do in case they were helping themselves from the Left Luggage... lol. I stand corrected.
Here is the first file as requested.. thanks for your help
Attachment: attach_1623_2253_brighton_mpd_13_06_12_1118_11.sk81     361

posted: 8 Jul 2013 11:41

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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and here is the second file ...
For photos of the area please check:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/70607220@N04/6486845879/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/4983327738/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/3479344013/in/faves-70607220@N04/
http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15857&st=1965&start=1965
(see post #1976)
This next one doesn't quite show the turnouts in question.. but the crossing is visible
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steve75c/4415525132/
(by the way this next one is the one that proved that the OS plan was wrong....
http://www.geolocation.ws/v/W/File:Brighton%20Locomotive%20Shed%207%20geograph-2664694-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg/-/en
)

Attachment: attach_1624_2253_brighton_mpd_13_06_12_1118_11.bgs     267

posted: 8 Jul 2013 11:50

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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TonyHagon wrote:
Ah, that's my signalling background coming forward, Martin! We always used to refer to them as 'points' 'cos that's what was written on the signal lever or when I was in Control the telephone call 'we've got a derailment at number 14 points'!
That's right, because that is what the lever is connected to -- the pair of moving points.

But it doesn't make sense to describe an entire turnout as a point, despite the fact that most of the UK model railway hobby does so. It's interesting that other countries don't do that -- in the US modellers correctly refer to the switch blades as points. But they then confuse matters by describing an entire turnout as a switch. :?

Thanks for the files and links, I can have a proper look at it now.

Martin.

posted: 8 Jul 2013 12:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Tony,

Well clearly my quick try is wrong, the pictures clearly show the outermost crossing is on the inner track. Also as I suspected I can't see any S-curve through the tandem. It seems that the inner road is the main road, and the first switch at least is LH. It would have been helpful to have these pictures in the first place. :(

I'm not too sure what you mean about the OS map being wrong. At that scale such maps can never be more than a guide. Also, although the map was published in 1951, it's quite likely still showing detail surveyed several decades earlier. In shed areas such as this it's quite likely that the track goes back well into pre-group days. Do you know any track renewal dates for this area? Was the area damaged in WW2?

regards,

Martin.


posted: 8 Jul 2013 16:19

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
<suitably chastised for not providing photos earlier.. :<>
I was actually quite impressed at how accurate the track layout is at 1:2500, but it's only when you get down to the real layout that these things appear.  It also doesn't help still being a Templot beginner! But I'm learning as I go and the videos help a lot.
I'm guessing, and only guessing, that the track layout was relaid at the same time as the shed was rationalised in 1931 when the area was electrified. There are lots of photos that show what it looked like before e.g.
http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/page_id__8571_path__0p116p180p1622p.aspx
It must have been a work of considerable skill to organise movements in and out of the shed day in and day out with the intensity of service at Brighton.
As you can see comparing this photo with the ones of the same site in the 1950s, the shed was reduced to nine roads and the roof converted to a northlight.
I would have thought that the actual tracks would have been replaced since being first laid in the 1880s (a bit like Trigger's broom in 'Only Fools..' - he had the same broom for twenty years and in that time only had five new handles and four new brushes!). I'm hoping that the timbers were replaced as I'm standardising on 8'6". I'm open to being corrected by those 'what know'.
Re wartime damage, the sheds themselves weren't damaged but the works across on the east side of the station and the Lewes Road viaduct (you can see it in the background of the this photo with the works behind the 'Brighton' sign:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/3479344013/in/faves-70607220@N04/
). So I'm assuming the formation may have been inherited from much earlier but some changes made in the 20th century and normal renewals.
You can see why the tandems have been giving me trouble!

Rgds
TH

posted: 8 Jul 2013 17:44

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Tony,

Thanks for the further notes.

I have had another stab at this:

2_081224_530000000.png2_081224_530000000.png

The relative disposition of the V-crossings now matches the photos.

I have made the centre road the main road, with a straight entry and zero-length transition to 1560mm radius within the tandem.

The first switch is RH, 15ft straight switch leading to a 1:12 V-crossing.

The second switch is LH, 12ft straight switch leading to a 1:8 V-crossing.

The middle V-crossing is 1:6.

The turnout on the right is a 9ft switch and 1:5.75 V-crossing, with a little contraflexure to fit.

The outer curve into the shed is a bit tight at 1145mm radius, but I note in two different photos that it is used only for vans.

A slight difficulty is that at 15ft there is barely room behind the first switch to open the second one. It will just about work in P4 but not in 00/EM. I have counted the timbers in the photo and it does appear to be correct.

Box file attached, try it over the map and see what you think. :)

N.B. It's not finished. Further partial templates need to be split out, and the timbering done of course.

regards,

Martin.
Attachment: attach_1625_2253_tony_hagon_shed_tandem.box     288

posted: 9 Jul 2013 00:39

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
Yes, that looks a lot better... 'contraflexure' - that's the word I was struggling with and describes the S bend I was talking about perfectly.
I will add the templates to my others and see how it goes, the timbering is the easy bit!
Thanks..
Regds
TH

p.s. number 1 shed road was usually used for stores vans, certainly when I was there. Earlier it had been used for 0-6-0T, 0-4-4T and short w/b 0-6-2T. I wouldn't like to have taken a West Country round there!
T

posted: 9 Jul 2013 14:54

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Brilliant, Martin! I've just imported your templates into the plan and they fit perfectly!
Many thanks, I owe you are least one drink!

Now on to the rest of the templates which should be a doddle as they only need timber shoving..
Regards
Tony

p.s. What on earth did we ever do before Templot and Google?

posted: 9 Jul 2013 15:07

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Tony,

Glad it worked. :)

Do you want me to finish off the partial templates, or do you want to do that yourself?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 9 Jul 2013 22:00

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Tony,

Glad it worked. :)

Do you want me to finish off the partial templates, or do you want to do that yourself?

regards,

Martin.
Oh... I hadn't realised that they needed any more work.... to be honest I haven't had too much time to look closely, work on Protocab developments have been occupying us for most of the day. I would be grateful if you'd do that for me. However, your warning about the age of the OS map is well founded. During a coffee break I looked closely at a photo I have of both sets of tandems (I can't publish it as I don't have the copyright) and - horror! - the other three way tandem is completely reversed from the  way it's shown on the OS. I've tried to copy your work, Martin, by trying to apply the ones you did for me to this other one but I haven't got very far with it yet. It is the same problem, an S shaped curve and a staggered and much smaller radius second turnout. I don't think the LB&SCR wanted modellers to copy them... :<
Regards
Tony

posted: 11 Jul 2013 16:31

from:

Richard_Jones
 
Heswall - United Kingdom

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Hi Tony,

The geometry is no where as complex as your example, but here's a tandem in EM for my layout based on Singleton - I can't guarantee it follows "Brighton Practice" though!

Good luck with your project - I know mine wouldn't have got this far without Templot

best wishes

Richard
1763_111127_150000000.jpg1763_111127_150000000.jpg

posted: 12 Jul 2013 00:37

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Neat, Richard and an interesting formation, a crossover into a three way tandem turnout... I never managed to visit the Lavant branch but it looks good...

Regards
Tony

posted: 12 Jul 2013 08:50

from:

Richard_Jones
 
Heswall - United Kingdom

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Hi Tony,

It's actually a double slip - in reality it was dead straight from there right up to West Dean Tunnel, but I've curved the whole lot to get it in the "available"* space. The track was lifted back as far as Lavant around 1956/57 when the platform buildings/canopies were demolished, but the goods shed and main station building are still there.
1763_050958_520000000.jpg1763_050958_520000000.jpg

* available space = living room + rear lounge + dining room + hall  - ie not a permanent layout!

best wishes

Richard

ps So does Mr Stroudley's legacy extend to influencing Caithness to model "The Brighton"?

posted: 12 Jul 2013 11:42

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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That's even nicer now I see it in length... a C2X, two unfitted vans and an SR brake van trundling over that formation would be a joy to watch!
Ah, Mr Stroudley left the Highlands to come to Brighton! The Lybster branch featured his 0-4-4Ts which have a strong connection to the D1s of the LB&SCR. Except that his eyes hadn't gone wonky by then and improved engine green was actually green!

posted: 16 Jul 2013 15:58

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Tony,

Here is your tandem, now with the rail conflicts split out as partial templates, and the timber shoving done.

As you can see, the timber spacings are preserved under the crossings and switches -- important to allow the special crossing chairs to fit. In between it's the usual best guess. The result always looks a bit untidy as a template, but when painted and ballasted the finished result looks right. Much better than having nice evenly spaced timbers, and a crossing nose hanging in fresh air between them.

File attached below.

2_161053_170000001.png2_161053_170000001.png

2_161053_160000000.png2_161053_160000000.png

regards,

Martin.
Attachment: attach_1627_2253_tony_hagon_shed_tandem_shoved.box     235

posted: 16 Jul 2013 23:00

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Many thanks, Martin, it looks really graceful and I'm looking forward to building it. I had a go at the other three way because that was way out on my first iteration, but the result is nowhere as neat as yours. I wonder which ones will cause the most derailments! Lol!
One question for you... I'm trying to highlight a template (in this case the third rail)but another template keeps popping up. No matter how much I zoom into the template I want, I can't highlight it to work on it. The one that pops up is a background template too. I tried to copy, wipe and delete the one that pops up to the control and store it or restore it to see if that made a difference but still without result. Suggestions gratefully received!

Best regards
Tony

posted: 16 Jul 2013 23:17

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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TonyHagon wrote:
One question for you... I'm trying to highlight a template (in this case the third rail) but another template keeps popping up.
Hi Tony,

1. put the name labels on if not already (END key).

2. hold down the SHIFT key or put the CAPS LOCK on.

3. mouse over and click on the name label of the required template.

(If the name labels are overlaid and obscured, click on the first one and then bat name label to bat it out of the way. You can then click on the one you want.)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 17 Jul 2013 12:48

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Aha! It's easy when you know  how!! Many thanks, I can now complete my storage box audit. I've downloaded and added the templates for the 3way tandem and it all looks good, Martin. Now dangerously close to printing out and laying templates :D!
What's your experience of the best types of printer, I have a choice of a b/w laser or a colour inkjet?

Regards
Tony

posted: 17 Jul 2013 13:21

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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What's your experience of the best types of printer, I have a choice of a b/w laser or a colour inkjet?
Laser printers heat and can distort the paper, inkjets don't.  Use the inkjet :cool:

posted: 17 Jul 2013 13:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Tony,

1. use an inkjet, not a laser, as Paul said. :thumb:

2. use thicker paper than standard 80gsm office paper. 160gsm paper works great. It is almost a thin card and allows the trimmed pages to be butted together like tiles when aligning them. Also it doesn't cockle when glued.

3. to save coloured ink, use the output > print in grey shades option.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 18 Jul 2013 14:43

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,
                  I saw this and thought about the New Templot companion.Would it not be a good idea to use links in Templot Companion to posts on the forum.For instance a subject for printing in the output section linking to this item and it would provide a connection to similar relevant material at the same time.Would it not make a more productive use of information available in the forum as well?The information relating to paper weight is not something a lot of people would consider when encountering issued while gluing.I am sure there are lots of potential links that could be helpful in the same way.They are also subjects which you have covered.The number of posts you respond to in order to assist people would provide quite a significant amount of content to the New Templot Companion just via links alone.It must be more productive to provide links to already existing content rather than reinventing the wheel all over.
Trevor. :)
Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Tony,

1. use an inkjet, not a laser, as Paul said. :thumb:

2. use thicker paper than standard 80gsm office paper. 160gsm paper works great. It is almost a thin card and allows the trimmed pages to be butted together like tiles when aligning them. Also it doesn't cockle when glued.

3. to save coloured ink, use the output > print in grey shades option.

regards,

Martin.


posted: 18 Jul 2013 15:48

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Trevor Walling wrote:
I saw this and thought about the New Templot companion.Would it not be a good idea to use links in Templot Companion to posts on the forum.
Hi Trevor,

Thanks for that. :thumb:

We do already have a topic for that very purpose, but it seems to have been forgotten. I have now made it a "sticky" at the top of the forum index:

 topic 1973

Further contributions very welcome. :)

There was also an earlier topic in 2009 on the same theme, although that Index version is now out of date and gone. I'm not sure I followed up all the suggestions on there, but I will do now. Sorry about that. :( Please don't post any more in that topic. ( topic 797 ).

One problem is that if you go too far back on Templot Club, a lot of stuff is out of date for Templot2 and needs updating. I do occasionally edit messages when I come across them, but it would be great if members could report any others found which need revision, even if they don't warrant full indexing.

Many thanks,

Martin.

posted: 19 Jul 2013 14:49

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,

We do already have a topic for that very purpose, but it seems to have been forgotten. I have now made it a "sticky" at the top of the forum index:

I have to admit I am one of those who has missed or forgotten this topic. :roll:
But this may have reminded a few others besides me hopefully. :)
Trevor.
Last edited on 19 Jul 2013 14:50 by Trevor Walling
posted: 15 Dec 2019 16:01

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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TonyHagon wrote:
p.s. What on earth did we ever do before Templot and Google?
Hi Tony,

Bumping this old topic because you may not have seen that radio control is being discussed in a current topic:

 topic 3578

cheers,

Martin.



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