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page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Trackbuilding topics > Masokits Etched Brass Chairs
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                                       Masokits Etched Brass Chairs
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 23 Jul 2013 22:40
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from:
Charles Orr
Leicester, United Kingdom

 

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Hi

I've been researching the use of these fold up brass chairs and found a lot of information here on the Templot site as well as RMWeb.

There appear to be articles in two issues of MRJ (119 and 162)  that explain how they are used as well as providing designs for  jigs for folding them.

I am a current subscriber to MRJ but did not start until issue 169 :(.

I wonder if there is some kind soul out there who could supply  me with  photocopies or scans of these articles.

I would of course be happy to reimburse any costs involved.

Best regards

Charles

 

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2nd message | this message only posted: 24 Jul 2013 08:39
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from:
R C Lake
 

 

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The articles show a slightly quirky way of doing things - unnecessarily complicated in my opinion. I found the Masokits instructions far more useful, to be honest.

The system is very good, even though the chairs are not quite as 3 dimensional as cast or moulded chairs. The finished product is very strong and easily adjustable. The tedium of folding the chairs is the only real down side. I find it best to fold them all up in a batch rather than do them individually as required.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 24 Jul 2013 12:25
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Charles

I sort of agree with "RC" in that the articles suggest what seems to be a slightly odd way of doing things, but John Hayes' little jig for forming the chairs I found invaluable.  That was just about the most useful thing I got from the article, and there's a photo of the one I made here.  It's just a piece of rail soldered to a lump of brass allowing the foot of the chair to pass underneath, so that you can make the fold on the jig instead of the track.  One end is open to allow slide chairs to go under the rail.  I also find this makes it easier to batch-fold the chairs, which I have to agree is total and utter tedium!  More photos of track built with this method on my website page.  It's up to you to decide whether the lack of 3D detail with the Masokits system is noticeable - I don't think it is from a normal viewing distance.

Otherwise, Masokits' instructions are pretty good, but it does take a while to get the hang of which bit is which.  If you still want copies of the articles, you can usually get back-issues from eBay or WSP at shows, which also avoids any copyright problems!

Hope this helps!

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4th message | this message only posted: 24 Jul 2013 12:38
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from:
Charles Orr
Leicester, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Paul

Many thanks for that information.

I've now put an order in the post for some.

Do you have a preferred way of soldering track (to chairs?) to sleepers?

Best regards

Charles

 

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5th message | this message only posted: 24 Jul 2013 13:49
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Charles
Do you have a preferred way of soldering track (to chairs?) to sleepers?Not really!  I just position the rail and chair, then solder the lot in one go with plenty of Green Label flux to help the solder flow right through - the etch is designed to help the solder flow.  One tip I picked up here was to varnish the templates before trackbuilding - you can then wash the whole lot under a tap (or in the bath!) after each session to keep it all clean.  I prefer liquid flux to paste flux for track as it easier to clean off around all the nooks and crannies.

I've also discovered that it's best to start soldering a length of rail at one end and work your way along, rather than from each to the middle, for instance.  Don't let it all get too hot though otherwise you'll still end up with expansion problems.  To be honest, I'm still trying to optimise that aspect, so if anyone else has any ideas, I'll be glad to hear them!

Cheers

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6th message | this message only posted: 24 Jul 2013 14:05
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from:
Charles Orr
Leicester, United Kingdom

 

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Thanks Paul, I'll give it a go when I've got all the bits.

By the way, are we both in Leicestershire?

Some of the pictures on your web site suggest this.

Best regards

Charles

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7th message | this message only posted: 24 Jul 2013 14:35
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from:
GeoffJones
Shropshire, United Kingdom

 

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Paul Boyd wrote: Hi Charles

I've also discovered that it's best to start soldering a length of rail at one end and work your way along, rather than from each to the middle, for instance.  Don't let it all get too hot though otherwise you'll still end up with expansion problems.  To be honest, I'm still trying to optimise that aspect, so if anyone else has any ideas, I'll be glad to hear them!

Paul

If you are soldering in situ on the layout then solder every third or fourth sleeper and work your way right along the length, then start again on each second sleeper etc. This way the rail never gets too hot.

If you work your way along soldering each sleeper the rail does get quite hot and although it may not cause you any problems as you work it will have expanded slightly and as it cools all those joints will be under stress.

If you are soldering single lengths on the bench it shouldn't make any difference.

Geoff

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8th message | this message only posted: 25 Jul 2013 14:08
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Charles asked: By the way, are we both in Leicestershire? I moved up here a few years ago, to the Loughborough area.



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9th message | this message only posted: 25 Jul 2013 14:13
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Geoff

Thanks for the info.  Although I tend to work "on the bench", in practise this is a temporary bench (a slab of Contiboard) that may be 6ft long and slid across the dining table as I progress, so probably not much different to working on the layout.  I've just ordered another batch of chairs from Masokits so I'll try your method when they eventually arrive!

Cheers

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10th message | this message only posted: 25 Jul 2013 16:10
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from:
Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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Hi Paul

In a long length of soldering, I use the method that I learnt when welding, start at the centre and work out to the ends, possibly every forth or fifth sleeper first to tack the rail in place and the go back to the centre and work you way out again, until all is soldered, this keeps the heat in one place to a minimum. On really big welding jobs we stuck it in a big oven and warmed it all up before starting and put it back in to cool slowly to stop the distortion.

Cheers Phil


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11th message | this message only posted: 15 Jun 2016 09:55
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Paul

Is there a new link to your web pages please as the earlier one is now not working

Thanks

John
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12th message | this message only posted: 15 Jun 2016 12:53
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi John

All those years ago I made the mistake of deep linking into my website, and as I've changed host those links no longer work.  My website is here. Click the Albums tab then scroll down to the Shotley album, passing many other interesting albums on the way!  Unless I change my name, that link should always work.

I've drifted away from railway modelling to some extent, but the interest is still there.  I just found I had so many things going on that I never got anything finished!

Best regards

Paul
(Edit - I've added my website to my profile)
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13th message | this message only posted: 15 Jun 2016 13:43
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Many thanks Paul. Some great trackbuilding in that album. :)

John, the Masokits pictures start about half-way down the Shotley album. Here's just one of them:


image linked from: http://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3814/11270434624_9c4bb45445_b.jpg

Excellent work Paul. But for clockwork, battery, or live steam? :)

Martin.
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14th message | this message only posted: 15 Jun 2016 15:42
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin!
Gaps in copperclad are so unsightly!!!

Martin Wynne wrote:
Excellent work Paul. But for clockwork, battery, or live steam? :)

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15th message | this message only posted: 17 Jun 2016 14:43
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Paul
I agree with you about the gaps in copperclad, but I offered to build one turnout just for the experience of building one. One thing I have done is to gap the sleepers before I start soldering, and then fill the gaps with filler and sand it flat, as its so much easier to do this without any rails in the way. You can also test the work whilst building it under power
I also sometimes use the odd copperclad timber in a chaired turnout, using a packing piece of 0.6 mm double sided copperclad strip (this insulates the rail from the timber providing cast chairs are not used) as a riser
Thanks for the album, certainly a very realistic and impressive bit of building
As for the use of these parts, the jury is out as far as I am concerned. Plastic chairs I think look better, but that's my own view.
John
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16th message | this message only posted: 18 Jun 2016 12:34
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from:
Ariels Girdle
 

 

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We should remember that the Masokits etch system is very old now. At the time it was introduced many people were soldering rail direct to sleepers or using rivets in wooden sleepers, with just a blob of solder to represent the chairs.
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17th message | this message only posted: 18 Jun 2016 13:21
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Ariels Girdle wrote: We should remember that the Masokits etch system is very old now. At the time it was introduced many people were soldering rail direct to sleepers or using rivets in wooden sleepers, with just a blob of solder to represent the chairs.
Thanks for that, but I remember buying C&L chairs 30+ years ago, the copyright on the 2 bolt etches are 1999, though they may well have been earlier examples of the etches.
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18th message | this message only posted: 25 Feb 2018 21:10
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from:
davelong
 

 

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Just to drag this out of the depths of the forum, any idea if is there enough on 2 turnout frets to build 3 A5-A5.5 turnouts? Plus is there a tiebar etch on the frets?

Many thanks.
Dave
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19th message | this message only posted: 26 Feb 2018 09:37
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from:
Stephen Freeman
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Tiebar/stretcher bars yes but not sure how many - probably 2 per fret but no copperclad. I think there were enough slide chairs etc on one fret to build 2 turnouts so yes again (probably).
davelong wrote: Just to drag this out of the depths of the forum, any idea if is there enough on 2 turnout frets to build 3 A5-A5.5 turnouts? Plus is there a tiebar etch on the frets?

Many thanks.
Dave


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20th message | this message only posted: 26 Feb 2018 09:38
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Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Dave
I can’t remember after all this time exactly what you get in terms of how many turnouts you can get, but I worked on one fret per turnout. I found this picture on RMWeb which may help.



Cheers,
Paul

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21st message | this message only posted: 26 Feb 2018 13:41
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from:
davelong
 

 

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Thanks guys.
Certainly looks enough for 3 A5's from 2 frets. Plus I could always improvise from a set of plain track etches, but I'm pretty certain there's enough there.

Dave
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22nd message | this message only posted: 21 Mar 2018 14:35
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from:
davelong
 

 

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Hi guys.
I've started building a 3 turnout formation with these. Am I to presume the Extended chairs are to represent block chairs and the narrow chairs to represent Bridge chairs. I'm also presuming that the keyed extended chairs are normal keyed running chairs as no extended chairs appear in the fret diagram and to use standard chairs with the filler pieces in the gap to represent the block. 
So I'd need 6 slide chairs then 4 block chairs and then 2 narrow chairs for a B5.25 


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23rd message | this message only posted: 21 Mar 2018 14:58
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Good luck as I found the design and etching an absolute stunning bit of engineering, but a real headache in building, Each to their own and if not under any time pressures something to enjoy picking up and doing a bit at a time, as could be very therapeutic to wind down from a hectic days work
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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davelong wrote:... for a B5.25Hi Dave,

Are you sure about the B-5.25 ?

It's a very unusual turnout size. B-switches are not normally used for turnouts shorter than 1:6 .

Martin.

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from:
davelong
 

 

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Martin.
I perhaps should look at my Templot at little more often. I have designed A switches, so that'll be 5 slide chairs.
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26th message | this message only posted: 21 Mar 2018 16:17
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from:
davelong
 

 

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Hayfield wrote: Good luck as I found the design and etching an absolute stunning bit of engineering, but a real headache in building, Each to their own and if not under any time pressures something to enjoy picking up and doing a bit at a time, as could be very therapeutic to wind down from a hectic days workHayfield, I have to agree the idea and the etching design is very good, it's a shame they haven't had a wider audience. 
My main reason is cost, I'm building a P4 cameo layout for the mrj competition, I was originally planning on plastic chairs, but without chopping lots of half chairs the cost of those now is beyond me, I understand the cost, but I need to spend elsewhere too. 
I have found a routine, fold up 4 or 5 then solder, then fold more, it allows the rail to cool in between soldering so not to buckle. 

The other reason is I'm planning on covering the track in Das clay ala Chris Nevard, so spending that money on plastic chairs to just bury them wasnt a good choice. Plus I've read a few comments on the exactoscale check rail chairs being too tight under a certain radius, all added up to me changing to these. 



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27th message | this message only posted: 21 Mar 2018 20:35
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Dave,

Some pictures please if you can spare the time. Always good to see how chairs look when actually in situ.

Rob


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28th message | this message only posted: 21 Mar 2018 20:45
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from:
polybear
 

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: Hi Dave,

Some pictures please if you can spare the time. Always good to see how chairs look when actually in situ.

Rob

Here you go Rob:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28696-copper-clad-turnout-construction/?hl=%2Bmasokits+%2Betched

HTH
Brian


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from:
davelong
 

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: Hi Dave,

Some pictures please if you can spare the time. Always good to see how chairs look when actually in situ.

Rob

Hi Rob,Brian's link and Martin's link to John Flickr page, will give you good pictures. I can offer these up though. 




That's after just a quick clean with a fibreglass brush, a second clean will come when the section in complete.
Dave

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30th message | this message only posted: 21 Mar 2018 20:58
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Brian,
Thanks for the link to the pictures I had forgotten that post - my hasn't time flown by.

Would you say you were happy with the chairs overall ? I see in one of the thread postings you were explaining the chair costs for turnouts and plain track but have you looked at the current costs of copperclad :shock:

Rob


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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hello Dave,

Many thanks for the pics you posted just as I was replying to Brian. They look worth a try, must get some ordered. BTW what thickness copperclad are you using ? Don't suppose you have any new sources for copperclad - the prices are silly these days.

Rob


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32nd message | this message only posted: 21 Mar 2018 21:21
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from:
polybear
 

 

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Gordon on RMWeb has been cutting his own copperclad to good effect, and saving a packet in the process:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3422-eastwood-town-rpt/page-119#entry2588072
(post 2974)
There's more on the subject in the same Topic - searching "Proxxon" brings up related posts.

You'll need a Proxxon or similar though :)

Failing that, Wizard Models also sells copperclad strip, and I believe cheaper than C&L. SMP Scaleway do also - a lot cheaper - though I've read reports of the width being a bit variable.
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33rd message | this message only posted: 21 Mar 2018 21:41
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from:
davelong
 

 

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Hi Rob, I bought my copper clad from Wizard models, 20 lengths roughly a foot long, £12 plain timbers £13.50 turnout timbers, this is 1.6mm single sided. Will match up to fasttack sleeper bases.

A good deal can be had with Colin Craig though, who's flat-bottom rail business is based on soldered track lists 100 cut clad 1.6mm timbers for £8 and £1.30p+p.
Given that c+l sell plastic turnout timbers for £7.80 for 50, there's little in the cost of the timbers.

Dave
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: Some pictures please if you can spare the time. Always good to see how chairs look when actually in situ.Hi Rob:



See earlier in this topic.

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2268&forum_id=6

Paul will probably be along shortly. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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35th message | this message only posted: 21 Mar 2018 22:42
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Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hello!
Yes, have a look at https://www.flickr.com/photos/paul-oconnor/albums/72157638474115173 The album starts with plastic chairs but keep scrolling and you’ll get to the Masokits chairs. There’s also a photo of the very essential jig copied from the aforementioned MRJ article.

Paul

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36th message | this message only posted: 21 Mar 2018 23:06
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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polybear wrote: Gordon on RMWeb has been cutting his own copperclad to good effect, and saving a packet in the process:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3422-eastwood-town-rpt/page-119#entry2588072
(post 2974)
There's more on the subject in the same Topic - searching "Proxxon" brings up related posts.

You'll need a Proxxon or similar though :)

Failing that, Wizard Models also sells copperclad strip, and I believe cheaper than C&L. SMP Scaleway do also - a lot cheaper - though I've read reports of the width being a bit variable.
Hope he uses a face mask. The dust from that stuff is not what you want to breath.

Nigel

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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Martin, Thank you and to everybody else who is chipping in with ideas.

I have a Proxxon circular saw. I don't fancy cutting fibreglass PCB with it so it would have to be one of the paper based boards. Martin's idea of using 100mm wide board is good, you aren't going to need any timbers wider than that - just a shame that 3x34mm sleepers is a tad more than 100mm :( ( the 4-SF guys should be laughing )

Rob


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from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

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Nigel Brown wrote: polybear wrote: Gordon on RMWeb has been cutting his own copperclad to good effect, and saving a packet in the process:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3422-eastwood-town-rpt/page-119#entry2588072
(post 2974)
There's more on the subject in the same Topic - searching "Proxxon" brings up related posts.

You'll need a Proxxon or similar though :)

Failing that, Wizard Models also sells copperclad strip, and I believe cheaper than C&L. SMP Scaleway do also - a lot cheaper - though I've read reports of the width being a bit variable.
Hope he uses a face mask. The dust from that stuff is not what you want to breath.

Nigel
Good advice Nigel.

I was going to use rail on copper laminate. I even got as far as making a shear to make my own timber strip from sheets of copper laminate. Around that time I bought a 3-D printer and things went a bit tangential when I realized I might be able to print the chairs. Oh well....

Andy

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from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: Hi Martin, Thank you and to everybody else who is chipping in with ideas.

I have a Proxxon circular saw. I don't fancy cutting fibreglass PCB with it so it would have to be one of the paper based boards. Martin's idea of using 100mm wide board is good, you aren't going to need any timbers wider than that - just a shame that 3x34mm sleepers is a tad more than 100mm :( ( the 4-SF guys should be laughing )

Rob

Rob,

Probably a very long shot, but the gent who runs this place

http://cloverhouse.com/Store/index.php?cPath=35_36

has a shear and he made me a lot of FR-4 timber strips to order. The widths were a little bit inconsistent to my mind and if I was ordering more I would probably get them little oversize and file them to size in a jig. IIRC the price was pretty reasonable (it was a few years ago).

Cheers!

Andy



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from:
davelong
 

 

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Paul
Can you remember what you did in regards to the keyed Extended chairs referred to on the diagram as on the fret there is only unkeyed Extended half chairs, 1 bolt and 2 bolt, but seemingly no keyed extended half chairs?
All the instructions mention is the filler plates for the extended chairs.
I'm tempted just to use the standard chairs in the places I can, it's getting buried under Das clay anyway.
Thanks
Dave
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