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1st message | this message only posted: 3 Oct 2013 21:36
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from:
Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Everyone

I've been trying to get nice flowing curves on this plan that I'm proposing to build with a degree of success but I'm not completely happy with the result. You can see clearly the dogleg at the double junction top centre left of the plan and I am wondering if there's a recognised way of dealing with this varying type of curve in Templot 2. The track is just 2 templates so far, and I've used a transition curves in both to get to this stage.

I've been wondering if I need to split up the main lines into smaller sections to have greater control as the radii changes, or will that just produce more doglegs at every join?

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Many thanks

Andrew 




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2nd message | this message only posted: 4 Oct 2013 14:18
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from:
Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew

I would would start a new template from about halfway between the double junction turnout and the cross over turnout and curve the template to about half way the curve and then geometry expanding transition to get a tangent with the existing curved template, the template may not be exactly over the drawing but the way it is drawn you will not get a smooth transition.

HTH

Phil
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3rd message | this message only posted: 4 Oct 2013 14:34
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from:
Ian Allen
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

 

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Andrew, can you post the files on here ?

Ian
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4th message | this message only posted: 4 Oct 2013 18:16
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew,

Designing track over a background guide is always tricky and time-consuming, with much trial and error. You need to be well-versed in Templot's various functions, because quite often you need all of them. :)

A freelance plan is much easier because you can use only as much Templot as you are comfortable with. So I would always recommend getting plenty of Templot track-planning experience before creating tracks over a picture shape background. Also, it is much easier to see what you are doing without an image in the way, and panning and zooming are much faster.

For a hand-drawn plan it is often a choice between nice smooth curves, or matching the plan exactly.

The usual way of working is to align a couple of dummy templates of fixed radius at each end of a section, and then use the make transition function to create the curve between them. You didn't upload your image file, so I have worked roughly over your screenshot.

First the sketchboard view for clarity:

 


The two dummy templates are in white. These can now be deleted once we are happy with the S-curve transition alignment between them in red. On the left the radius is 1100mm, on the right between the platforms there is an opposite curve of 20 metres radius. The new template in red can now be extended at each end and will follow the original templates to whatever length we need, and double track can be created off it.

More about aligning dummy templates here:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?swell_function_ctrl_f10.htm

You can see that the red template is not a perfect match to the background plan. Some further trial and error might get it closer, or you might decide that you like it as it is. Hand-drawn plans can really only be regarded as approximate guides, dimensional reality tends to get in the way. :)

If it is important to match the background more closely, you could split that template in two, and use the slew (nudge) functions on each half to create a better match. But then you wouldn't have such a smooth curve.

As it stands, the double-junction falls within the transition zone. That's not very likely prototypically -- on the other hand the prototype isn't trying to fit an entire railway in 21ft.

If you are not happy about that, what you can do is slide the peg along the transition (CTRL+F8 mouse action) and read off the radius at each location. You could then replace the transition, or part of it, with several short sections of fixed radius curves linked together. This would be more prototypical for the double-junction section, and also make it easier to create the diamond-crossing part using the irregular diamond functions.

Whatever you do, you should never get any actual dog-legs, because Templot aligns each template with its neighbour.

That's a great plan by the way -- a traditional model railway with lots of tracks and trains. You can only get so far with the modern "less is more" ideas. :)

regards,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2013 23:28
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from:
Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Firstly thank you to all of you for your replies.

Martin what you written is food for thought. I'm new to Templot and knowing all its ins and outs is obviously going to take time. I'm following a plan because, although much compressed it is more or less the way the track was laid at Yeovil Pen Mill in 1922 and although 21x10 feet is a pretty generous space by my standards its still pretty cramped for the site. Iain Rice (the designer) and I almost came to blows over the minutiae of what would and wouldn't fit in, what would look too crowded or be too tight a radius, in short there are blood and tears in this plan and I'm loath to change it by more than a few mill if I don't have to.

You talk of using a couple of dummy templates of fixed radius at each end of a section and then with the "make transition " function, make a curve between them. Search as I might I can't find that function?

Later you refer to the Slew & Nudge function, and having read the bit on the link you sent about "swelling" I wondered if I could use that to good effect instead of Slew & Nudge to push the "up main line" out where it crosses the river on two separate over bridges(the line used to single) and the lines get significantly further apart for a while?

Later still, in referring to the junction where I have the "dogleg"(incorrectly named I see now - its actually a sharpening of the curve) you refer to moving the peg along the curve and reading off the radius (which I can now do with F6 curve function hooray!) and then replacing the transition curve with some fixed radius sections. Firstly I've not found a way of turning off transition curves once created (Id like to know how if its possible)
and secondly I've not found a way to interrupt them at will either. If, as you say doing this does make it easier to create the diamond at the centre of the crossing then perhaps I should consider it?

I've uploaded the box file which I hope is the correct file that Ian mentioned with this message and you can see the progress that I've made over the weekend. 

Once again you help would be much appreciated.

Kind regards

Andrew

 

 

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Attachment: Yeovil Pen Mill v3 Scaleforum 2013.box (Downloaded 131 times)
 
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6th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 09:23
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Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew

Andrew Duncan wrote:

You talk of using a couple of dummy templates of fixed radius at each end of a section and then with the "make transition " function, make a curve between them. Search as I might I can't find that function?


 Firstly I've not found a way of turning off transition curves once created (Id like to know how if its possible)


Kind regards

Andrew

 

 
The Make transition function is in the PEG/ALIGN TOOLS. when you click on a second template without saving the control template a menu list appears on the left of the screen.

To remove a transition go to GEOMETRY and click on STRAIGHT or CONSTANT RADIUS.

HTH

Phil

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7th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 10:32
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Duncan wrote: You talk of using a couple of dummy templates of fixed radius at each end of a section and then with the "make transition " function, make a curve between them. Search as I might I can't find that function?Hi Andrew,

I entered "make transition" on the Templot site search, and it produced 6 pages of results. They are here:

 http://templot.com/zoom/search.cgi?zoom_query=%22make+transition%22&zoom_page=1&zoom_per_page=10&zoom_and=1&zoom_sort=0&zoom_xml=0

The most significant is this one, the make transition tutorial:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?info_files_make_trans.htm

Admittedly it is 10 years out of date and lots of things could now be done differently, but the basics are still the same.

Also, this old video shows how to use the make transition function in the second half: 

 parallel platform using transition curve  (5 mins, 5MB)

(Press the spacebar to start the playback.)

Andrew, please can you post your background image file? If it is a hand drawn track plan I'm afraid you may have to settle for some variations of more than a few mm if you want smooth curves. If you can post your file we may be able to see how best to replicate it in Templot.

Trying to match a background track plan without first learning the basics of Templot really is jumping in at the deep end. I keep saying this to new users. Please, please, first learn to use Templot by creating lots of freelance track plans so that you know what can be done and how things work. :)

regards,

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 10:57
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from:
Ian Allen
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

 

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Andrew,

Sometimes, it is easier to make adjustments to a section of track by copying it and working on the copy. That way you can adjust it in any way without affecting the original. This can also help when inserting points and diamond crossings.

I have adjusted your box file and re-posted it, and you can see that there is now a point and a diamond crossing in roughly the right area that you need on the transition curve.

Firstly, you need to make your other running line, With the transition curve selected (Wipe to Control), TOOLS > Make double track TS and then store that template. Then returning to the original transition curve template do this, TEMPLATE > insert point into plain track. Then, if the handing is correct, ACTIONS > Roam turnout along length, until you get it to the desired location. Adjust as necessary the crossing vee angle and the switch blade length. Then, TOOLS > Make ladder crossover. This will insert a diamond crossing. I found that I had to make the second half of the diamond straight, GEOMETRY > straight, and then TEMPLATE > invert handing. Next ACTIONS > mouse actions: control/geometry > rotate around peg, to align with the outer running line. Then it is just a case of adjusting the crossing vee and K crossing angles until you get the desired crossing. Hope this helps.

Ian 

 

 

 

 

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9th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 11:15
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Ian,

I know you are trying to help, but a diamond-crossing in which the K-crossings are 1:6 on one half and 1:4.5 on the other half simply won't work. The K-crossings at the centre of a diamond-crossing must all be the same angle, or very close.

The way to do this is with the irregular diamond functions.

If Andrew can post his image file, we may be able to get a better result.

It is possible to use "make diamond-crossing at intersection" on transition curves, but it requires a bit of extreme Templotting. That's why I suggested inserting a length of fixed radius within the transition over the length of the double junction. Which would also be the most likely prototype solution.

regards,

Martin.

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10th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 11:35
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew,

Here are updated screenshots:






regards,

Martin.

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11th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 11:46
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from:
Ian Allen
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

 

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Apologies,

I'd forgotten about the irregular diamond crossing function.

Ian
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12th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 18:00
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from:
Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Thanks Phil I thought I'd tried everywhere....!

Kind egards

Andrew

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13th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 21:30
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from:
Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: Andrew Duncan wrote: You talk of using a couple of dummy templates of fixed radius at each end of a section and then with the "make transition " function, make a curve between them. Search as I might I can't find that function?Hi Andrew,

I entered "make transition" on the Templot site search, and it produced 6 pages of results. They are here:

 http://templot.com/zoom/search.cgi?zoom_query=%22make+transition%22&zoom_page=1&zoom_per_page=10&zoom_and=1&zoom_sort=0&zoom_xml=0

The most significant is this one, the make transition tutorial:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?info_files_make_trans.htm

Admittedly it is 10 years out of date and lots of things could now be done differently, but the basics are still the same.

Also, this old video shows how to use the make transition function in the second half: 

 parallel platform using transition curve  (5 mins, 5MB)

(Press the spacebar to start the playback.)

Andrew, please can you post your background image file? If it is a hand drawn track plan I'm afraid you may have to settle for some variations of more than a few mm if you want smooth curves. If you can post your file we may be able to see how best to replicate it in Templot.

Trying to match a background track plan without first learning the basics of Templot really is jumping in at the deep end. I keep saying this to new users. Please, please, first learn to use Templot by creating lots of freelance track plans so that you know what can be done and how things work. :)

regards,

Martin.


Martin

First of all many thanks for your full and patient replies. I feel a bit of a twit for not thinking of using the search function.....! So point noted and I will do some homework over the next few evenings.

I also note your plea about not walking before I  can run, which I duly note, but at a gut level want to ignore! Time will tell and as I try to introduce turnouts and more complex crossings into  the mix, either I'll give up or you'll all get fed up with my questions. I can take a no ok if I'm taking too much of your time.

I also thought that Ian's idea of taking a copy and working on that, was a good one in this context. I must say that so far I've retained the initial excitement that I had when I did the first exercise of the small terminus about a month or six weeks back. I frankly thought that I'd fall at the first hurdle and not get up again. So I'm amazed that I've got this far.

I hope the background image of the layout is ok to see. Please let me know what you think.

Kind regards

Andrew

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14th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 21:33
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from:
Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Ian Allen wrote: Andrew,

Sometimes, it is easier to make adjustments to a section of track by copying it and working on the copy. That way you can adjust it in any way without affecting the original. This can also help when inserting points and diamond crossings.

I have adjusted your box file and re-posted it, and you can see that there is now a point and a diamond crossing in roughly the right area that you need on the transition curve.

Firstly, you need to make your other running line, With the transition curve selected (Wipe to Control), TOOLS > Make double track TS and then store that template. Then returning to the original transition curve template do this, TEMPLATE > insert point into plain track. Then, if the handing is correct, ACTIONS > Roam turnout along length, until you get it to the desired location. Adjust as necessary the crossing vee angle and the switch blade length. Then, TOOLS > Make ladder crossover. This will insert a diamond crossing. I found that I had to make the second half of the diamond straight, GEOMETRY > straight, and then TEMPLATE > invert handing. Next ACTIONS > mouse actions: control/geometry > rotate around peg, to align with the outer running line. Then it is just a case of adjusting the crossing vee and K crossing angles until you get the desired crossing. Hope this helps.

Ian 

 

 

 

 


Hello Ian

Just a quick note to thank you very much for all the work you put in on my plan. It was really generous and kind of you. I'll try our some of you suggestions along with those Martin makes in the next few days or so.

Thanks again

Andrew

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15th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 21:53
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew,

Thanks for posting your scanned track plan. :thumb:

Now that I can see it properly, I'm not sure there was anything wrong with the alignment which you originally posted. It seems that the double-junction is essentially a Y-formation with straightish exits, presumably based on the prototype, and the curve on the left is a model compromise to fit it in the space. In which case I'm not sure that you would want that curve to run back through the junction?

Can you clarify where you think there is an unwanted dogleg? Do you have any prototype pictures of the junction which you can post here?

Is the run through the main platform dead straight?

regards,

Martin.

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16th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2013 22:05
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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To answer my own questions: :)

Yes, the platform is straight, and:


Activity at 1953 Yeovil Pen Mill by MrGloverman, on Flickr

From which it seems clear that the branch exit to the right is a sharper curve than the main lines to the left, so ideally that difference needs to be preserved. The exits are not straight as drawn.

Martin.

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Martin Wynne
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Hi Andrew,

There is a large scale 1886 map at 1:500 of this junction available from http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html

COORDINATES:  356936   116204

I have grabbed the screen and will attempt to overlay it on your track plan.

regards,

Martin.

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18th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2013 00:47
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew,

Looking at the photo I think the tracks are more than 6ft way at this junction. Here is the 1886 map (in red) scaled to 7ft way and overlaid on your track plan:




And again as a transparent overlay:




Here is a B-6.5 turnout aligned over it:



It seems that finding space for the crossover under the bridge could be tricky. That is often the case with hand-drawn track plans -- pointwork is drawn too short.

I will see if I can work this up into a proper plan. :)

regards,

Martin.

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19th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2013 21:50
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Martin


Once again thank you very much for the time and trouble you are putting in to helping me out



I've attached a couple of photos that may also be of help. The first is a slightly more of a birds eye view of the junction that seems to me to emphasise the steady curve going right the way through the junction itself. Do you think that's the case or would it in fact have straightened out going through the crossings of both the diamond and the turnouts?

So far as the crossing going back under the bridge is concerned, the turnout on the up line was under the bridge and perhaps we might push it north a little to accommodate the longer than expected junction formation? It's true though that it cant go more than maybe half a turnouts length before it starts to interfere with the platforms.

The other photo is of the over-bridges that lie just beyond the junction and cross the river. I presume that there are two because the line was originally broad gauge and single line which was doubled in 1858, So I supppose that they built a second bridge then. The result is a very large "way" between the tracks, 10' or maybe more in narrow gauge. It's there that I was thinking of using the "swell" function as opposed to the slew to push the up main out sufficient to create the gap?

I imagine that the 7' way that you refer to at the junction itself maybe the result of being an ex broad gauge line might it not?




Thanks again for you help and enthusiasm

Kind regards

Andrew


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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew,

Thanks for uploading the pics.

I've had a bit of a dabble and got somewhere near:







I will post more later, I'm a bit pushed for time now.

regards,

Martin.





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21st message | this message only posted: 11 Oct 2013 09:36
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from:
Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Martin
Many thanks for this ....the flow of the junction in particular looks really beautiful if that isn't a slightly strange decription for some bits of wood steel and castiron....
Andrew
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew,

I have dabbled on a bit further. I adjusted the shape of the island platform to better match the photographs:


















This is all very cramped. There was a trailing crossover on the right which was ludicrously sharp as drawn. To ease it I have moved the running lines and the goods shed further into the corner. Unfortunately this means that the trailing connection across to the down line has forced the down platform much shorter. It is now barely 4ft long. That connection may have to go. :)

I will post the files shortly. 

regards,

Martin.

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from:
Martin Wynne
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Hi Andrew,

I'm no longer happy that I have the island platform correct. This picture:


Yeovil Pen Mill
© Copyright Roger Cornfoot and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.

and many others taken from the road bridge tend to exaggerate the kink in the up side and suggest that the main part of the platform is tapered. See also:

http://www.time-capsules.co.uk/picture/number1059.asp

However, it must be an optical illusion, because an aerial view shows that the island platform is parallel and the curve at the south end is quite normal:

http://goo.gl/maps/BC21N

So I will rework the  plan before I post the file.

regards,

Martin.

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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Andrew,

I'm no longer happy that I have the island platform correct. This picture:


Yeovil Pen Mill
© Copyright Roger Cornfoot and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.

and many others taken from the road bridge tend to exaggerate the kink in the up side and suggest that the main part of the platform is tapered. See also:

http://www.time-capsules.co.uk/picture/number1059.asp

However, it must be an optical illusion, because an aerial view shows that the island platform is parallel and the curve at the south end is quite normal:

http://goo.gl/maps/BC21N

So I will rework the  plan before I post the file.

regards,

Martin.

Hello Martin,
First of all I am once again amazed at the time and trouble that you taken over my plan. Thank you very much indeed.


Thanks also for your thoughts in general and the platforms in particular. One point to bear in mind is that the island platform was extended in the mid thirties(the period I'm modelling is 1922/3)when the north and south signal boxes were replaced by a single box at the north end(right had side of th plan )of the island platform. And I think at that time the trailing cross over (hope that's the correct term?) from the down island platform to the Goods shed line  was removed and at some point the platform extended to the extent that it started to follow the curve as it does now. I'm 99% sure the platform in its original state was shorter, straight  and that is how it would have been in 1922 and it had the lovely overall roof. I'll post a picture of my model of it, albeit not yet finished, shortly sitting on my current 16.5mm model of Pen Mill.

Kind regards

Andrew


 

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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Duncan wrote: (the period I'm modelling is 1922/3)Hi Andrew,

If you are modelling it as in 1922, the pointwork would have been all GWR old-type loose-heel switches (the GWR introduced flexible switches only in the 1930s -- the 1953 photo of the junction shows flexible switches).

This is all a bit moot, because a) your track plan is severely compressed, making it impossible to use scale equivalent sized pointwork, and b) it is in EM gauge anyway, so the scale lead lengths wouldn't apply even if it was not compressed.

So I worked the plan with REA switches (not normally used by the GWR). This also makes the plan usable by others as a generic layout track plan, rather than a specific model of anywhere.

But only you can decide. I can rework the plan with old-type GWR switches if you prefer? You don't necessarily have to model them with loose heels if you decide that flexible construction is easier and more reliable, but retain the old-type geometry (which can often save some space).

regards,

Martin.

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from:
Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Martin
Thank you for your thoughts and I'm sorry if I hadn't made it clear the period I was modelling was 1922.
There is a large part of me that wants to say lets go for GWR loose heel switches as I'd like the track to be as typical of the railway and the period as I can make it. I'm further encourage down that route by the thought that I might also be saving a bit of space as well.


So I think on balance that I'd rather use the correct type of switch for the period albeit I may not actually model the loose heel itself unless I can work out how to do reliably or someone has already done it and there's a recognised method in 4mm?


So if I may I'd like to take you up on your offer to change it the old type switches. So far as other people possibly using the plan are concerned, can you save a copy in it's current form so that either  is available?
Talking of Great western permanent way, do you know of a good book on the subject? Until I started using your program I knew very little about it and in reality that is still the case, however my appetite has been wetted and since I spend ages making locos and rolling stock that are
 specific to that period I'd like to try to apply the same thing for the trackwork as well now.

Thank you again
Andrew

PS included are a couple of photos of the station building platforms and overall roof which are making slow but sure progress toward completion on my current version of Pen Mill set in only 12 feet of space in 16.5mm gauge.

The station building is Iain's work, the overall roof mine so far as it goes. I must do something about the droopy awning...


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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Duncan wrote:Talking of Great western permanent way, do you know of a good book on the subject?Hi Andrew,

The book you need is:



from: http://gwsg.org.uk/GWSG_Publications.html

I tend to assume everyone modelling the GWR has a copy. :)

For plain track see also: http://templot.com/martweb/pdf_files/gwr_track_panels.pdf

Thanks for posting the pics.

regards,

Martin.

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from:
Steve Stubbs
Taunton, Somerset, United Kingdom

 

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Just realised this thread is going in.     I am part of a group also doing Pen Mill in4mm but to scale as far as possible using the trackwork circa 1939 after the realignment.   We are now into track laying using Exactoscale / C&L components.

The single line through between the main and island platform has a distinct reverse curve at the southern end of it, and the main platform tapers right down and into the overbridge.   There was a 10 mile an hour restriction through here because of that.

I can provide you with a CD with several dozen photos taken of Pen Mill, showing all that in glorious detail!    I am attaching a file of the .box containing our track templates.   

However I am having trouble making the diamond on the north side into the necessary single slip and despite numerous attempts to follow the single slip tutorials have failed dismally here.

Any help there would be welcome. 

Steve Stubbs


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from:
Steve Stubbs
Taunton, Somerset, United Kingdom

 

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Should have added that that diamond (that should be a single slip with the slip on the top side of it) is about 15.5 ft right of datum and about 6.5 feet above the datum on the file.
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from:
Steve Stubbs
Taunton, Somerset, United Kingdom

 

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Here's a quick look at a photo that shows it well.

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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Steve,

Thanks for uploading your .box file.

I'm a bit puzzled by the track standards which you are using. :?

The turnouts at the south end of the station are 16.5mm track gauge with 0.9mm flangeways. I'm not aware of any 00 standard with such fine flangeways. Most commercial RTR models have wheels to the NMRA/110 standard with flanges 0.8mm thick, so you are getting close to the limit. Also of course the back to back will need increasing to at least 14.8mm to span the check rails. The fine 00 standards use 1.0mm flangeways as in EM.

At the north end of the station you have gone to the other extreme, using 1.5mm flangeways matching the old coarse 00 universal standards. The diamond-crossing which you mention is set to this standard. I would strongly recommend against building a diamond-crossing with fixed K-crossings at 1:7 angle with such wide flangeways. Mis-tracking of stock is almost certain, especially when propelling. The solution is to build it with movable K-crossings  (switch-diamond) or use much narrower flangeways.

I'm puzzled how you will be able to run stock on this layout with such a mix of track standards. I would suggest adopting 00-SF or 00-BF standards -- for some old notes of mine about the 00 standards, see:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_postx.php?post_id=567

I will change the diamond to 00-BF and add the slip road for you.

Changing it to 00-SF would be preferable, but the 16.2mm track gauge would shorten the existing lead lengths and alignments.

regards,

Martin.

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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Steve,

Here is your single-slip in 00-BF -- delete the existing diamond-crossing and add... the attached .box file.







As you can see, it was necessary to shorten the K-crossing check rail very significantly to clear the slip road rail. This is always the case with 00 gauge slips, although the narrower flangeway in 00-SF would have eased matters a little.

That's why it is much better (and easier to build) to use switch-diamonds in 00 gauge slips -- movable K-crossings don't have check rails. :)

regards,

Martin.

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from:
Steve Stubbs
Taunton, Somerset, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin, yes we are actually building the trackwork with a 0.9mm flangeway and using a 14.8mm back to back, I turned up all the gauges on my lathe. This is because the rest of the group wanted to keep their OO gauge stock at 16.5mm to use elsewhere while I wanted to do it in P4, but lost..... It also meant widening the check rail gauge. 0.9mm prevents the dreaded 'wheel drop' even with RP25 flanges and widths, and I hope will work with the 'K's. The templates are as always a guide to sleeper positioning, also the nose of the vee and the switch positions (GWR heel switches in practice), but the gauges do the work. I couldn't go to 16.2mm, it's even more narrow gauge!

regards

Steve
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Steve Stubbs wrote: yes we are actually building the trackwork with a 0.9mm flangeway and using a 14.8mm back to back, I turned up all the gauges on my lathe. This is because the rest of the group wanted to keep their 00 gauge stock at 16.5mm to use elsewhere while I wanted to do it in P4, but lost..... Hi Steve,

But they won't be able to use it elsewhere after widening to 14.8mm back-to-back. :?

"EM minus 2" -- 00-SF 16.2mm really is far and away the best solution for 00 fine-scale track. RTR stock runs without wheel-drop straight from the box. Finer wheels work equally well. Because you are not modifying the wheels, the stock remains compatible with all other 00 gauge layouts. Precision gauge tools are available from Brian Tulley: http://00-sf.org.uk

But each to his own.  :)

regards,

Martin.

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from:
Steve Stubbs
Taunton, Somerset, United Kingdom

 

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All the stock with 14.8mm back to back runs quite happily on the trackwork at Bath Green Park ...... At least my 75 - odd wagons do. I blame Normal solomans trackwork ......:D
regards
Steve ( studying the double slip - thanks for that)
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Steve Stubbs wrote: All the stock with 14.8mm back to back runs quite happily on the trackwork at Bath Green Park ...... At least my 75 - odd wagons do.Hi Steve,

I can't respond to that without knowing the track standards on Bath Green Park. :)

But RTR wheels set to 14.8mm BB will have a BEF of 15.6mm (0.8mm flange thickness).

On 00-BF and 00-SF track the check gauge is 15.2mm, so you would have a 0.4mm conflict between the wheel flange and the nose of the vee on such track. That would almost certainly lead to bumps and derailments, especially on curved turnouts. On Peco track with 15.1mm check gauge the situation is even worse with 0.5mm conflict.

Even on DOGA-Fine track with 15.5mm check gauge you have a 0.1mm conflict. RTR wheels on DOGA-Fine need to be set to 14.7mm BB max. But you can't do that with 0.9mm flangeways because they would jam across the check span.

Even with the finest 00 wheels with thin 0.5mm flanges, you still have 15.3mm BEF leading to 0.1mm conflict on 00-BF and 00-SF track.

If it works for you that's fine, but I'm reluctant to see the idea rest on Templot Club for others to follow without more details of your wheel profiles, etc.

To my mind 00 gauge only makes sense if you use models as supplied. As soon as you start changing wheels or modifying the back-to-back you may just as well be building EM or P4.

regards,

Martin.

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from:
Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Martin and Steve,
I found myself in a similar situation to you Steve in that I wanted to go EM(which I regard as a pragmatists P4) when we built my current layout (Maiden Newton and YeovilPM)but with curves of 2'6" at each end that was impossible for mainline stock so 16.5mm it had to be. We used 1mm flange ways as in EM and a 14.85mm back to back which has worked pretty well getting rid of hunting from side to side to quite an extent and better through crossings.
But, and its a bit of a big one, I can't run anyone else's stock on my layout as they won't go through the point work.
I found it rather isolates me. And so that's been a good bit of the reason for going to EM.
Kind regards
Andrew
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Duncan wrote: with curves of 2'6" at each end that was impossible for mainline stock so 16.5mm it had to be. We used 1mm flange ways as in EM and a 14.85mm back to back which has worked pretty well getting rid of hunting from side to side to quite an extent and better through crossings.
But, and its a bit of a big one, I can't run anyone else's stock on my layout as they won't go through the point work. I found it rather isolates me. And so that's been a good bit of the reason for going to EM.
Hi Andrew,

Had you used "EM minus 2" (00-SF 16.2mm gauge with 1.0mm flangeways) you would have achieved the same quality of running but without modifying any wheels BB. So everyone else's stock would still run on your layout and your stock on everyone else's layout.

The 00-SF standard has been in Templot from the beginning, and was used by me 30+ years ago when I was building pointwork to order -- see (written 6 years ago):

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_postx.php?post_id=565

More info: http://00-sf.org.uk

Martin.

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Simon Dunkley
Oakham, United Kingdom



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Andrew Duncan wrote:
Hello Martin
Thank you for your thoughts and I'm sorry if I hadn't made it clear the period I was modelling was 1922.
There is a large part of me that wants to say lets go for GWR loose heel switches as I'd like the track to be as typical of the railway and the period as I can make it. I'm further encourage down that route by the thought that I might also be saving a bit of space as well.


So I think on balance that I'd rather use the correct type of switch for the period albeit I may not actually model the loose heel itself unless I can work out how to do reliably or someone has already done it and there's a recognised method in 4mm?

Try MRJ issue 113 for an article on making straight-cut switches.

Simon
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Simon Dunkley wrote:Try MRJ issue 113 for an article on making straight-cut switches.Hi Simon,

Oh not again. :(

They are "straight" loose-heel switches.

"Straightcut" means "not undercut" i.e. for use with a joggled stock rail, and applies equally to flexible switches. It refers to the way the switch rail is planed to fit the stock rail at the tip, not the geometry of the switch. "Straight" switches can be straightcut or undercut.

Ever since that article appeared I have seen this misunderstanding repeated in print countless times.



An REA semicurved flexible switch with undercut-pattern blades and a plain set in the stock rail (no joggle):
 





__________________________________

A GWR curved flexible switch with straightcut-pattern blades and joggled stock rails. The very much more robust nature of the blade tips in this case is very evident:






__________________________________

Notice that in the undercut switch (upper two pictures) the blades are not shiny on top at the tip -- they serve only to guide the wheel flange, not to support the wheel, at the tip. In the straightcut switch (lower two pictures) the shiny tops run all the way to the tip, supporting the wheel along the full length of the planing. This is the way to identify switches in photos. If the open blade is shiny all the way to the tip, it is almost certainly a straightcut/joggled switch.



More info: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_postx.php?post_id=8209

regards,

Martin.

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