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topic: 2336Flangeway problem on double slips
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posted: 20 Oct 2013 23:42

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Having almost completed my 16.5 fs layout an got it running, I'm having problems with the double slips, there isn't enough clearance on the blades for flanges to pass through and this leads to the occasional derailment. I've read somewhere that the spacing tool should have been used, so it looks like I'll have to rebuild 2 double slips. 

 

Are there any tips about using the spacing tool? ISTR the slips are probably B8, but my original laptop with the Templot files on crashed and everything was lost! So it may be a case of making rubbings of the track to reproduce it correctly so it works properly.

posted: 21 Nov 2013 17:28

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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BUMP! Can anyone help with the problem of insufficient flangeway gaps at the blades?

posted: 21 Nov 2013 20:47

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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roythebus wrote:
BUMP! Can anyone help with the problem of insufficient flangeway gaps at the blades?
Roy,

I think the critical point would be positioning the switch blades so that there is sufficient clearance on each side of the toe of each blade when it is open to allow passage of wheels without contact.  This could mean moving the toe end of the switch far enough away from the crossing nose so that there is sufficient room to allow this, and with 00 track standards, this could mean farther away than in the prototype because of the coarser standards.

You can use the spacing ring set to the recommended switch blade clearance to check out the clearances on each side of the toe of a blade.

I think you may be finding out the problems of making complex formation using 00 standards. :D

Jim.

posted: 21 Nov 2013 22:22

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Roy,

Sorry you had to bump this.

Can you provide a bit more information? A photo perhaps.

If there isn't a full flangeway gap all along behind an open switch blade, this could be because:

1. the tip isn't opening far enough. It should open by about 1.75mm for 00 gauge. A good way to check this is with a 20p coin -- see:

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49161-first-attempt-at-handbuilt-track-a-complete-novice%E2%80%99s-experience/#entry560207

or

2. you made the tip area too flexible. Always leave the foot of the rail intact on the inside at the blade tips to give the blade some stiffness there.

or

3. you didn't leave a long enough length of blade to flex.

If none of the above explain the problem, perhaps you could post a bit more information about it.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 22 Nov 2013 08:35

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Thanks for the replies. It could be the radius of the curve is not sharp enough, and the tips of the blades are too close to the vee.

I think I used B8 for the blades and vees, maybe an A8 combination with the blades moved further from the vee would solve the problem. There is about 1mm between the blades and the running rail, but that doesn't always give enough room for clearance on the opposite blade.

I'll try and get some pix later.

Thanks.

posted: 28 Nov 2013 20:18

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Ok, update, I've now taken some pix and traced the laid track as pdf files. I now can't remember or find out how to load them to Templot 2! I'm sure it's easy, I managed it 3 years ago when I built the track, but my brain does not retain computer speak.

posted: 23 Dec 2013 18:47

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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BUMP again...I've found the scale drawings of my original plans but still can't work out how to import them to Templot; it must have been 3 years ago when I imported them on the other computer which has subsequently failed and lost everything! There doesn't seem to be a simple HELP page that tells you how to import anything!
Last edited on 23 Dec 2013 18:48 by roythebus
posted: 23 Dec 2013 18:58

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Hi Roy

Try this link to import images into Templot.

http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_bgshape.htm

Or the video option.

http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/map_picture_shape.exe

The basic's are the same for a map sketch or drawing.

Cheers Phil

posted: 23 Dec 2013 21:38

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Thanks, I knew I'd seen the video before, but couldn't find it.

posted: 23 Dec 2013 21:59

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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H Roy,

The video is out of date, sorry. Here is some updated info.

Here is screenshot tutorial as simple as I can make it. This is for Templot2. Please do not try to follow this if you are still using an earlier version of Templot.

It's preferable that you know the scale of the map, which is usually marked on it somewhere. For example the popular 25" OS maps have a scale of 1:2500. And also that you know the resolution in DPI (dots per inch) at which it was scanned. This information is normally available in your scanning software. Common values are 300 DPI or 600 DPI.

Armed with these two pieces of information, Templot can scale the map for you, to match your model scale. If you don't know this information, you will need to scale the map manually by adjusting it with the mouse. Decide whether you have this information now.

Your model gauge/scale must be set in Templot before you begin. Don't forget this.

2_131128_200000000.png2_131128_200000000.png

which leads to:

2_131128_200000001.png2_131128_200000001.png

1. Click the background shapes button at the bottom.

Alternatively, click the main > background shapes menu item or press CTRL+S.

2_121236_070000000.png2_121236_070000000.png

A background image is called a picture shape. It is comprised of two components:

a container rectangle, having specified overall dimensions and a specified position on the trackpad, and

a raster (bitmap) image which is stretched to fit inside it. This is loaded from an image file, from a scanner or camera or wherever.

It's important to understand these two separate components, because the container rectangle may sometimes appear empty, and it is possible to change the image which it contains without changing its size or position.

This dialog will appear:

2_121236_080000001.png2_121236_080000001.png

2. To add a new shape, first click the new shape tab.

3. Enter a name for the shape, which will appear in the list of shapes.

4. Click the option for the type of shape, in this case a picture shape.

5. Choose whether you want to enter the dimensions for this shape, or have it placed at locations which you previously clicked on the trackpad. Usually for a picture shape you want to enter dimensions.

6. Click the add shape button.


regards,

Martin.

posted: 23 Dec 2013 23:06

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Thanks Martin, more informative. I've managed to import a tracing of my original double slip, but must have entered wrong dimensions somewhere, it appears as a small box in the bottom left of the default template and I can't work out how to make it full size.

It's a bit of a "dotted" copy but scanned as a pdf, converted to bmp still full size hopefully!

posted: 29 Dec 2013 20:12

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Rummaging through the pile of paper on the layout room floor I've discovered the original rough print of the errant double lip. All I have to try now is to try to copy this to Templot2 and re-work it!

posted: 13 Jan 2014 22:37

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Ok, still struggling with this, I've got the Templot drawing of the original double slip to import to Templot background, now can't work out how to get that on the page to modify it. I've tried downloading the video link, but the computer says it'll take 1hr 20 minutes to download. Any more suggestions?

I've now managed to copy the original Templot drawing as an attachment, I know the plan isn't complete but I used part of it to make the Vee about 4 years ago! Any comments or suggestions as to why or how to modify it to work? both roads are on a very slight curve BTW!
Attachment: attach_1712_2336_double_slip_town_central.jpg     475
Last edited on 13 Jan 2014 22:49 by roythebus
posted: 15 Jan 2014 17:10

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,

I've been having a look at this and I think that possibly part of the problem is that you had not calibrated your printer. Having said that the closest match I can get to it is an 00-SF 1 in 7 Double Slip. I can't seem to select more than one file to upload so this is 1 of 3.
Attachment: attach_1715_2336_roys.bgs     310

posted: 15 Jan 2014 17:11

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi 2 of 3
Attachment: attach_1716_2336_roys.sk81     384

posted: 15 Jan 2014 17:12

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,

3 of 3

Hope this helps

Stephen
Attachment: attach_1717_2336_roys.box     327

posted: 26 Jan 2014 08:53

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Hi Borg Rail, thanks for taking the time to help on this one. My printer was calibrated. As this was one of the first bits of pointwork I made using Templot, this may explain things! I understand the basic problem, that the tips of the blades were too near the vee and the curvature wasn't sufficient to allow clearance for the flanges. What I couldn't work out was how to move the blade along the template, then later in the day how to download my own old template to Templot. I still haven't managed that despite Martin's explanation! Maybe I'm getting too old to remember all these computer instructions.

Thanks to all for the help so far. I have 2 of these slips to build, luckily both from the same template.

posted: 26 Jan 2014 09:50

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,
If you look at your jpg, it does say printer uncalibrated. If you copy the two related files into the folders where they should go you can then load your jpg as the bgs file.

If you want to move the blades along, make sure your peg is on front of switch and try snake through peg on actions mouse actions control/geometry menu option. (Ctrl F6)

Stephen

roythebus wrote:
Hi Borg Rail, thanks for taking the time to help on this one. My printer was calibrated. As this was one of the first bits of pointwork I made using Templot, this may explain things! I understand the basic problem, that the tips of the blades were too near the vee and the curvature wasn't sufficient to allow clearance for the flanges. What I couldn't work out was how to move the blade along the template, then later in the day how to download my own old template to Templot. I still haven't managed that despite Martin's explanation! Maybe I'm getting too old to remember all these computer instructions.

Thanks to all for the help so far. I have 2 of these slips to build, luckily both from the same template.


posted: 27 Jan 2014 12:49

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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OK, I'll give that a try. The original printer WAS calibrated, the current one isn't, so I'll do that when I get round to printing again.

posted: 27 Jan 2014 13:04

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Roy,

You have rather lost me. Could you start again from the beginning and explain what the problem is?

Looking at your print, it appears to be a satisfactory double-slip:

2_270757_030000000.png2_270757_030000000.png
As with all 00 gauge slips, there is a conflict between the slip roads and the K-crossing check rails. The way to deal with this is to shorten the K-crossing check rails and change them to machined flares instead of bent. Click the real > adjust check rails... menu item to make the changes.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 27 Jan 2014 14:42

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

I know it looks OK but if you load Roy's jpg as a background shape etc and then try to fit a Templot template over it, I think from memory, that you will see the problem that using the printer uncalibrated has caused.

Stephen

posted: 27 Jan 2014 16:07

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Borg-Rail wrote:
I know it looks OK but if you load Roy's jpg as a background shape etc and then try to fit a Templot template over it, I think from memory, that you will see the problem that using the printer uncalibrated has caused.
Hi Stephen,

I'm not sure there is anything significantly wrong with the printer calibration. You can fit a 1:7 regular half-diamond in 00-SF over Roy's scan quite well if you curve it to 4300mm radius.

The problem seems to be that Roy has rotated one half-diamond by a few degrees relative to the other at the centre, which means that the main road rails through the K-crossings are not properly aligned: 

2_271057_420000000.png2_271057_420000000.png

Roy, I'm puzzled what you are trying to do here? Why not simply forget this old scan, and start again with a new 1:7 slip? It would be much quicker, and a better result, than trying to match this old one. :?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 27 Jan 2014 17:01

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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The problem is where the blades are, there is insufficient clearance for the flanges to pass through at 212X1 and 212T8. There isn't a problem with the K crossing. The running problem is the blades need moving along by one sleeper to get enough clearance between the flanges and blades. In my view the curve needs to be slightly shaper as a result.

I'm trying to load a scan of the original print onto Templot so I can get the very large radius curve in the right place to make a new template. the original templates were lost when my old computer crashed!

So, once I've got the "diamond" roads to the correct curve, I need to know how to move the blades along. you seem to say it' just a case of snaking them along, which would then give me sufficient flange clearance and a sharper radius on the slip roads. I would also need to make a bigger set in the stock rails.

As I said earlier, I've got the original plan scanned into templot but having followed your instructions above, can't get it to load onto the pad were I can make a new template over it. I may have to resort to trial and error to get the main road curvature right, then add the slip roads later.

Thanks for the help so far.

ps I did adjust the K crossing check rails by eye when I built the slip!
Last edited on 27 Jan 2014 17:03 by roythebus
posted: 27 Jan 2014 18:00

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Roy,

There seems to be plenty of clearance to me? :?

The normal switch opening at the tip for 00-SF is 1.75mm (the thickness of a 20p coin) and you seem to have room for at least that. The two blades are normally linked together and move across together, so only one is open at any one time. If using copper-clad, you may need to be careful about the insulation gapping and maybe remove the central copper entirely.

You need a clear 1.0mm flangeway clearance all along behind the open blade. If you join the switch blades on the middle timber and make 2 fixings each side of it, there should be sufficient flexible length remaining. Don't make the blade too thin and flexible at the tip, leave the rail foot intact on the inside.

If you move the blade tips further from the V-crossing, you will gain more clearance between them (even though you don't seem to need it), but at the expense of a shorter flexible length. The result may not gain you anything.

However, if you do want to do that, after snapping the slip switches into position, use the CTRL+F6 snake mouse action to move them along by one timber space.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 27 Jan 2014 18:17

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Speaking from personal experience, I would not try to use copperclad in this situation, just not enough space as I think Roy has found out. However there are other ways of doing it.

posted: 27 Jan 2014 19:18

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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I've used upturned copper clad for the tie bars with Peco pins inserted from the bottom for pivots (remembering to cut away the insulating gaps underneath) but as built there wasn't enough clearance for the flanges. Thanks for the help.

posted: 28 Jan 2014 00:02

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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I've printed off the template Stephen supplies and it fits perfectly on the layout, so that's all ok. However, having measured the gap between tips and running rails, there's only a total of 3mm; needing 2 flangeways of 1.75 plus the tips is what's causing the problem. Hence the blades need moving along 1 sleeper to give that extra clearance.

One other problem on the slip I made is that the Vee and crossing rails don't quite line up, so causing part of the flangeway clearance problem on my slip.

posted: 28 Jan 2014 00:37

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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roythebus wrote:
However, having measured the gap between tips and running rails, there's only a total of 3mm; needing 2 flangeways of 1.75 plus the tips is what's causing the problem.
Hi Roy,

Only one blade is open at any one time, they both move over together when rodded from a signal box. So 3mm clearance is plenty to allow one to open by 1.75mm.

There are some prototype exceptions to this, but for short 00 gauge slips it makes life easier to do it that way.

If you move the switches further from the crossings, you will make the conflicts with the K-crossing check rails worse.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2014 07:42

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Agreed about the blades moving together, but what I had and was trying to point out is that you also need clearance for the flange on the wheel that is following the closed blade; this was insufficient on the slip I made.

I use a variety of wheels, all re-set to 14.8 b-t-b and the running and derailment incidence is pretty random over the range of stock on these particular slips. I'll rebuild them to Stephen's template and take a bit more care; after all, these were the first items I made!!
Last edited on 28 Jan 2014 07:42 by roythebus
posted: 28 Jan 2014 11:08

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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roythebus wrote:
Agreed about the blades moving together, but what I had and was trying to point out is that you also need clearance for the flange on the wheel that is following the closed blade; this was insufficient on the slip I made.
Hi Roy,

Thanks for clarifying that. Sorry I didn't get the message. :)

With 00-SF and RTR wheels set to 14.4mm back-to-back, 0.8mm flanges, 16.2mm gauge, the back of the wheel should not be more than 1.0mm from the rail. So on the face of it a 3mm space should be just enough for 1.75mm opening, 0.25mm tip thickness and 1.0mm flange clearance. I agree it might be a bit tight, especially if you are using some gauge widening. You may want to reduce the opening nearer the scale figure of 1.4mm (4.25"). I will look again at this for the 1:7 slip switches. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.

In the meantime, instead of snaking the switch along, it is easier simply to use the 1:8 slip switches instead of the ones marked for 1:7. For 1:8 the tips are one extra timber space from the crossing. In this case you don't need to use the functions to shorten the check rails.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2014 13:24

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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I'm using DOGAF 14.8 b-t-b with 16.5 gauge.

Thanks for the update, sorry to be a pain!

posted: 28 Jan 2014 14:11

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,

That presents a problem, the boxfile I did was for 00-SF, which fitted the jpg. I done you a DOGAF one, which perhaps doesn't quite fit so well but is to your chosen standards (I think).
Attachment: attach_1730_2336_roys_slip_2014_01_28_1403_06.box     222

posted: 28 Jan 2014 14:21

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Thanks, I'll try that on the layout later.

posted: 28 Jan 2014 21:51

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Roy,

I have looked a bit closer at this.

In 4mm scale, with the 1:7 slip switches pegged as intended on MCP and TCP of the half-diamond, there is 3.6mm between the switch tips, measured with the ruler tool:

2_281656_270000000.png2_281656_270000000.png

2_281636_260000000.png2_281636_260000000.png

With one switch blade opened by 1.75mm at the tip, and allowing .25mm for the tip thickness, that still leaves a clear space of 1.6mm on the other rail for the wheel flange. Which should be more than adequate for all wheels.

By reducing the opening to say 1.5mm (still a bit overscale) it would be possible to have both switches open at the same time -- e.g. when operated by hand levers in a yard. And also in some GWR interlockings.

Admittedly it needs some careful fitting of the linked stretcher bars to get the desired openings -- but no-one chooses a double slip for their first attempt at trackbuilding. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Jan 2014 07:45

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Thanks for the help there Martin.

This isn't my first attempt at track building, I built all the track for New Annington many years ago but that was to BRMSB OO gauge using copper-clad! I must be mad....

Getting the tie bar holes spot-on is the difficulty now.

posted: 15 Nov 2014 00:37

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Well I'm pleased to say I've built the new slip to the plan supplied and it seems to work ok. All I need to do now is build a single slip to the same dimensions!

 

Thanks for all your help.



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