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topic: 2508Leaving gaps in a rail on tandem partial templates
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posted: 17 Aug 2014 18:04

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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I have tried without success to make the rail breaks in the stock rails which go through a 3 Way's common crossing.

Other than needing to alter slightly one of the Common crossings (next job after this one) I have nearly finished the turnout.

I have kept watching the tutorial but now have completely lost the plot and cannot see for looking.

Please could someone very kindly type out the key actions I need to use to make the rail breaks in the stock rails. Thank you

posted: 17 Aug 2014 21:42

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello John,
                  Have you actually printed a template of your threeway out? It might give you a better idea what is present and anything not there could possibly be placed by hand with a suitable marker pen. It is sometimes hard to see the wood  for the trees if you consider all the detail that one can miss on the monitor.
Regards.
 Trevor.
Last edited on 17 Aug 2014 21:44 by Trevor Walling
posted: 18 Aug 2014 01:13

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi Hayfield,

Try these two sites for the info you require.

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/tt-ho-w-6.pdf

http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Track-templates/c75/SL-E199%20plan%20sheet.pdf

The links take you direct to turnout templates, which show the breaks in all rails.

All the best,

Brian


posted: 18 Aug 2014 08:06

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Attachment: attach_1917_2508_3_way_version_2.box     267
Last edited on 18 Aug 2014 08:37 by Hayfield
posted: 18 Aug 2014 08:13

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Here is the 3  way with the problems,as a stock and 2 switch rails are going through 2 of the common crossings. 

I also have a slight problem with the 3 rd (left hand) common crossing which I placed over the switch rails where they go over each other. I have tried following the tutorial, but I can't seem to get both the Vee to match the crossing angle whilst keeping the switch rails part (before the  knuckle) in line with the other 2 switch rails. I have tried the F9 as per instructions without any luck 

Any help in either or both problems would be much appreciated Thank you.

Attachment: attach_1916_2508_3_way_version_2.box     233
Last edited on 18 Aug 2014 08:27 by Hayfield
posted: 18 Aug 2014 08:50

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Rail breaks shown in red.

 
Attachment: attach_1918_2508_3_way.png     295

posted: 18 Aug 2014 09:20

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Alan

Thanks but I am not looking for electrical breaks or where rail breaks are in the prototypes.

Its where the stock and switch rails on one turnout which is overlaid on to another goes through the common crossings.

I know how to wire up a turnout, and will worry about how long individual rails are later. I just want to tidy up the plan in and around the common crossings.

But thank you for taking the time to reply

posted: 18 Aug 2014 12:18

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi Hayfield,

I think I now understand your question (or at least I hope I do).

I think you are referring to the 'Wing Rail Front' dimension, if so see the link below, which takes you to the companion page for crossing details.

http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_realtrack.htm

Scroll down to almost the bottom of the page to the Wing and check rail dimensions.

Then on the trackpad, you need to put one of the wing rail templates, of the 3rd Vee, to the control, then

Select < real >
                     < V-crossing options ... >
                                                          < customize V-crossing >
                                                                                                 < wing rail front ... >


then in the drop down window it will tell you how many timbers the wing rail sits on, forward of the A timber, up to the front break.

Needless to say, this will apply to both wing rails of the 3rd Vee.

Hope this helps.

All the best,

Brian

posted: 18 Aug 2014 12:32

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Brian,

I think John is asking how to use partial templates to leave a space in a running rail, so that a crossing can be inserted for a neat template.

John I'm busy right now, but I know I have written a reply on the subject. I will post a link later.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 18 Aug 2014 12:43

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

If what you say is true, then would not the usual wing rail front break (and setting) perform that function, to allow John to make an individual drop in template ? :)

He would no doubt use the usual Vee length breaks and settings as well. :)

All the best,

Brian

posted: 18 Aug 2014 12:54

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hayfield wrote:
Please could someone very kindly type out the key actions I need to use to make the rail breaks in the stock rails. Thank you
Hi John,

Here you go, including some video:

 message 3967

What amazes me is that it is over 5 years since I wrote it. I was sure it was only a month or two ago. :?

It needs updating a bit for Templot2 -- but then, what doesn't? :) If you can't follow anything just ask again.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 18 Aug 2014 18:58

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Martin & Brian

Thanks very much, yes the first thing is what Martin has given me. Can't try now as off for fish & chips but perhaps not on the quay side.

Brian Thanks for the likk to the common crossing, that's my second problem.

Been at Bodmin & Wenford Railway today, found some interesting chair combinations. IKB must be turning in his grave.

posted: 19 Aug 2014 09:00

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Hayfield wrote:
Martin & Brian

Thanks very much, yes the first thing is what Martin has given me. Can't try now as off for fish & chips but perhaps not on the quay side.

Brian Thanks for the likk to the common crossing, that's my second problem.

Been at Bodmin & Wenford Railway today, found some interesting chair combinations. IKB must be turning in his grave.


Thank you both for the info, looks like it worked. I was able to alter the rail lengths to avoid having rails going through the common crossing gaps.

My other problem was where the common crossing was put where the two of the crossing rails , crossed each other. The problem was when I altered the Vee the crossing rails went out of alignment.

I then had a light bulb moment and used the same process to alter both. By taking the Vee away from the template then putting it in the parking bay. Then recalled the Vee and changed the size followed by retrieving the crossing from the parking bay . All I think is nice and tidy.

Could someone please check the result to see that I have not made any glaring mistakes.

 

Thanks again

 

John
Attachment: attach_1919_2508_3_way_version_5.box     241

posted: 19 Aug 2014 16:08

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi John,

I have just had a quick look at your 3 way Tandem and have the following observations.

1. The gap at the tip of the very short wing rail of the 3rd Vee is too close to the nearest rail, since it is approaching the gauge face side of the rail, it measures 0.587mm, this should be much greater, bearing in mind the flangeway gap for your gauge is 1mm, so your wing rail tip gap should be greater than the flangeway gap.

 Also on this wing rail, you could reduce the flare length to say 18" proto and increase the check a little more. However, you are just about covered for checking on that wing rail.

2. Regarding the opening of the switch blade tip of the 2nd switch of the tandem, it is not sufficient, only measuring 1.375mm, this should be at least 1.5mm. You can achieve more gap by moving the switch backwards to the next timber, but this will then take the 3rd Vee closer to the Vee of turnout 1 of the tandem thus giving you more of an issue there.

3. The 2nd switch (turnout) of the tandem is below the minimum radius setting 698mm (27.5"), now this may or may not be an issue, but is worth remembering.

I must say you do have a problem with the Vee's, however, is there any room for manoeuvre, that is to say, are the surrounding tracks necessarily fixed, or can they be moved.

It would be useful to look at your plan, and see what can be achieved to resolve the issue and make the flow of the track better.

All the best,

Brian


posted: 19 Aug 2014 16:57

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi John,

In addition to Brian's comments, your left-hand turnout has a regular-type V-crossing. This isn't aligning smoothly with the upper exit track. You will get a much better result if you change it to a curviform-type V-crossing. This is often the case when turnouts have significant contraflexure (negative radius).

If you change it, you can then increase the crossing angle to about 1:7.5, and snake that turnout back a bit to re-align with the exit track. Doing that will increase the stagger between the switches and increase the space for the switch opening.

The right-hand turnout it is currently a B-6, again with a regular V-crossing. I suggest changing that to a 12ft switch and the V-crossing to generic. That will ease the radius into the green (32.7") and at the same time shorten the turnout, again increasing the switch stagger, without changing the exit geometry.

If you make these changes I think the remaining problems will be ok.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 19 Aug 2014 17:29

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi John,

This is what that looks like (B-7.5 curviform + 12ft-6 generic):

2_191227_160000000.png2_191227_160000000.png

The middle crossing is still a bit close to the running rail, but I think it is just about doable. Otherwise it will mean making some changes to the exit tracks.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 19 Aug 2014 17:56

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Thank you both for the recommendations, if possible the it would help if the left hand exit stayed the same, but there is lots of wriggle room for the centre and right hand exits

posted: 19 Aug 2014 20:57

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi John,

See if this 3 way fits your bill. See attached box file

I have marked the exit roads in yellow that align with my 3 way.

The underlying templates are your originals.

The 3 way is still in the same position on the left, as you requested, but I have changed the centre-road radius to give this result.

All clearances are now correct, and wing rails do not give a problem.

Due to another commitment, I have had to leave a lot of junk in the box file, but the viewable templates are valid.

I hope it helps.

All the best,

Brian
Attachment: attach_1920_2508_3_way_version_5_BN_Sample_19_08_2014.box     238
Last edited on 19 Aug 2014 20:58 by Brian Nicholls
posted: 19 Aug 2014 21:11

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Brian,

The upper B-7 needs changing to a curviform crossing, otherwise you have a short length of wrong-way curve on the exit. More info here:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/tut5e.htm

Sorry that page is 14 years old. "curved crossing" means curviform crossing.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 19 Aug 2014 21:37

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

You are quite right,  I chose the wrong template when copying for safety.

I will change the turnout,  and send another box file shortly, but have something important to do first.

Perhaps John may be able to change it if he needs it in a hurry.

All the best,

Brain.

posted: 19 Aug 2014 21:58

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi John, Martin,

Here's the updated box file.

All the best,

Brian
Attachment: attach_1921_2508_3_way_version_5_BN_Sample_19_08_2014_v2.box     194

posted: 19 Aug 2014 22:04

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi John, Martin,

More haste less speed as they say, the updated box file is not valid, need to change the 3rd Vee slightly.

Apologies all round.

Will fix the issue later tonight.

All the best,

Brian.

posted: 20 Aug 2014 00:05

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi John, Martin,

Please find attached the correct updated box file. :roll:

All the best,

Brian
Attachment: attach_1922_2508_3_way_version_5_BN_Sample_19_08_2014_v3.box     180

posted: 20 Aug 2014 07:58

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Brian and Martin

A very big thank you, the first files came just as we were popping down to the Harbour for a night cap after checking what time the chippies close at night. Trip was successful for us as most of the visitors had left and plenty of good seats looking out to the Harbour due to the rain. A glass or two of Proper Job (an IPA) were duly consumed.

I will now start to timber the turnout. I guess the best combination is timbers centralised and straight on the centre road.

Thank you very much again as I seem to struggle placing the turnouts apart either enough or too far appart

posted: 20 Aug 2014 09:54

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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undefinedundefined

Hayfield wrote:
Brian and Martin

A very big thank you, the first files came just as we were popping down to the Harbour for a night cap after checking what time the chippies close at night. Trip was successful for us as most of the visitors had left and plenty of good seats looking out to the Harbour due to the rain. A glass or two of Proper Job (an IPA) were duly consumed.

I will now start to timber the turnout. I guess the best combination is timbers centralised and straight on the centre road.

Thank you very much again as I seem to struggle placing the turnouts apart either enough or too far appart

I have now played around with the sleepers, I think I have covered most of the areas around all 3 common crossings
Any thoughts would be most welcome, Thank you both for all your help.

 

John
Attachment: attach_1924_2508_3_way_version_A2.box     183
Last edited on 20 Aug 2014 09:55 by Hayfield
posted: 20 Aug 2014 15:18

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi John,

Hoped you enjoyed your drink. :)

Just had a look at your 3 way version A2, and have done some suggested timbering of the 3 way and the exit roads.

See attached box file.

Note the timbering on the two 3 way turnouts.

One point, the upper curved road (your original template) leading to the upper RHS turnout TO road is not linked properly to the turnout exit rails.

Hope the timbering helps. :)

All the best,

Brian

Attachment: attach_1925_2508_3_way_version_A2_BN_Sample.box     175
Last edited on 20 Aug 2014 15:22 by Brian Nicholls
posted: 20 Aug 2014 17:35

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Brian

Again Thank you very much, I will sort out the link between the 3 way and other turnout so they flow together.

The beer was very nice last night and thanks to the rain plenty of room to enjoy it.

Regards

John

posted: 20 Aug 2014 17:46

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi John,

Again you are most welcome.

No, it is not the link from the upper 3 way exit road to the RHS turnout that is not aligned, it is the road above the 3 way.

I have already transitioned the link between the 3 way and the other turnout, and it fits OK.

It's a pity the harbour you refer to is not the same harbour of my home town, we could enjoy a chat and a pint together. :)

All the best,

Brian.

posted: 20 Aug 2014 18:16

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Brian

 

Thanks, flexi track will be used but I have just adjusted the road.

 

The beer sounds good, If you are in the Sharksfin tonight then more than happy to buy the round

 

Regards

 

John
Attachment: attach_1926_2508_3_way_version_A4.box     175

posted: 20 Aug 2014 18:53

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi John,

That adjustment looks good now.

You could have transitioned the original curved track onto the exit road.

I have just done the timbering to the exit roads of the other turnout.

See attached box file.

Thank you for the thought of buying a round, I would reciprocate, cheers. :thumb::thumb:

It's a pity, but you are an almost 5 hours drive away from my town, so please excuse my absence, I hope there are not too many 'emits' at the bar. :D


All the best,

Brian.


Attachment: attach_1927_2508_3_way_version_A4_BN_Sample.box     193
Last edited on posted: 20 Aug 2014 19:48 by Brian Nicholls
20 Aug 2014 19:48

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Brian
Thanks, just been down to the harbour for fish and chips. No chance of putting weight on as we had to walk up to the top of the headland


Thanks again

john



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