Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 2522Custom turnout matching Peco 0n30
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posted: 26 Aug 2014 20:30

from:

keithj15
 
Northampton - United Kingdom

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Hi,

I have been using Templot for a while to create OO finescale trackwork with great success (thanks to Martin's superb program), then recently several members of my local MRC became attracted to On30 logging modules.

Initially we were able to use Peco's turnouts, Y's and flexitrack for the trackwork, but then as confidence quickly grew, and plans became more complex with crossings, curved switches and three-ways they all turned to the club's 'Templot guy'.

I said OK without question, as I had always been interested in the rustic look of these North American shortline railroads. With the minimum radius of 24 inches and 36 inches preferred it was all fairly straight forward --- until I had to work on a corner module with two existing Peco On30 switches, which had to remain in situ. So that's the backstory.

Scale On30 16.5mm 1:48 I thought the easiest thing was to start to generate a Templot version of Peco's On30 medium radius switches, which lead me into the realm of Custom Gauges (no problem) and Custom Switches (oh dear) Skipping the learning curve of point work terminology and dimensions, here's the story so far...

Curved Switch selected Lead length to heel 136 inches Offset at the heel 7 inches Switch radius 1152 inches Stock rail joint to toe 37.5 inches Length of switch rail 202 inches Length of stock rail from joint 380 inches. But when I click on OK I get the message panel with ''Fail code 98''

I am hoping that this has been caused by inputting an incorrect value rather than a limitation. Any help would be welcome as we have our exhibition at the beginning of October, nothing like a deadline to raise the blood pressure.

regards,

Keith Johnson

posted: 26 Aug 2014 21:06

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Keith,

There are some sample 0n30 templates for downloading here:

 topic 28

regards,

Martin.
Last edited on 28 Aug 2014 21:23 by Martin Wynne
posted: 26 Aug 2014 21:24

from:

keithj15
 
Northampton - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

I am using Templot v2.11a which I believe is the latest version

Thanks for the link, I had already downloaded that box file when I started, but having been painted into a corner I still found it necessary to create something closer to the Peco as this is one of the demands (until I can prove to the guys there is a better way)

I also got your Peco standard points/ large points as they are sort of similar.

I have placed an image of the Peco On30 points from their website to pace in the background as a guide.

regards Keith

posted: 26 Aug 2014 22:24

from:

keithj15
 
Northampton - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

Slight delay why I installed a screen grabbing utility I could use easily

Two grabs, the file names indicate what they are

Hope this helps shed some light

regards Keith
Attachment: attach_1932_2522_Custom_switch_settings.jpg     426

posted: 26 Aug 2014 22:26

from:

keithj15
 
Northampton - United Kingdom

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Seems I had to do one attachment at a time?
Attachment: attach_1934_2522_Error_message.jpg     410

posted: 26 Aug 2014 23:51

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Keith,

Thanks for the screenshots. :)

Where did you get these dimensions?

Curved Switch
Lead length to heel 136 inches
Offset at the heel 7 inches
Switch radius 1152 inches

And are you sure it is a curved switch? The vast majority of narrow-gauge switches are straight switches.

For a curved switch the reason you are getting the error is that the radius of 1152 full-size inches is too small to fit the other dimensions. The minimum that could possibly fit is 1325 inches radius, which would be effectively tangential with the stock rail and non-prototypical in the sense that the blade tip would be so thin and slender it would be damaged by the first wheel to run over it.

Assuming you wish to retain the 136 inches lead and 7 inches offset, I suggest a radius of 3 chains or 2376 inches full size. At 1:48 scale that scales to 49.5" radius in the model, and produces a good result for 1:6 and 1:7 turnouts at 16.5mm gauge.

Alternatively for a smaller radius you need a shorter switch, i.e. reducing the 136 inches dimension.

For a short curved switch, aim for a deflection angle at the tip of around 1:40 to 1:50.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 27 Aug 2014 12:52

from:

keithj15
 
Northampton - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

I tried to work out the dimensions from info from Peco and by measuring the print of their ref sheet I downloaded. The standard point is claimed to be a 24" radius (@.25"?ft = 96feet =1152 inches.

I had started out with the straight switch option, but then thought it should be curved — probably my first mistake.
The switch radius I assumed (mistake?) it would be the same sat the turnout radius.

The Peco turnouts, on closer inspection have straight switch blades, so I shall stick with that because as you say, that is the norm for narrow gauge.

My MRC's Module Specs are minimum 24" radius, with 36" to 48" preferred whenever possible (we are following the N California On30 group guidelines.

I shall resume with a straight switch option from here on with #4.5 and #5 for yards and stations, then #6 and #7 for the "main" and passing loops.

Thanks for the info on curved switch options, I will give the a go too.

I have another question, I have found how to print out the specs on a turnout, but they don't include any timber details. I have been using the shove timbers function to note down the info one by one which is very time consuming. Is there a way to get all the timber specs in a list?

Which leads me to the Custom Switch timbering — are the distances entered for the gap from edge to edge or centre to centre of each timber, I suspect the latter but I am still having to shove timbers later to put them where I want.

Many thanks and regards

Keith

posted: 27 Aug 2014 13:38

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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keithj15 wrote:
I have another question, I have found how to print out the specs on a turnout, but they don't include any timber details. I have been using the shove timbers function to note down the info one by one which is very time consuming. Is there a way to get all the timber specs in a list?

Which leads me to the Custom Switch timbering — are the distances entered for the gap from edge to edge or centre to centre of each timber, I suspect the latter but I am still having to shove timbers later to put them where I want.
Hi Keith,

Sorry there isn't a list available of all the timbering for a complete turnout. With all the shove timber options for position, length, twist, etc., it could be a complex list. But thanks for the suggestion, I will look at providing such a thing.

You can see the timbering for the switch section (un-shoved data) by clicking the show switch info button on the switch dialog. You can have the data in full-size inches or mm:

2_270820_510000000.png2_270820_510000000.png

Scroll down to see the timbering data. To print it out, click the copy all button and paste it into Windows Notepad or wherever you prefer.

All timbering data is to the centre of the timber. For the first switch timber the dimension is from the toe (blade tips), typically 3" - 4". For some timbers in a customized crossing the dimension to the timber centre is from the rail joint.

I will download the Peco template and see if I can make a close copy at 1:48 scale. From past experience that is very hard work with Peco designs. It is much easier to start from the prototype. :)

The radius dimensions quoted by Peco are generally the substitution radius, and don't correspond to the actual radius in the rails.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 27 Aug 2014 16:17

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Keith,

This looks close. I suspect it is the same rail parts as used in the 00/H0 small-radius turnouts:

2_271109_280000000.png2_271109_280000000.png

1:48 scale, 16.5mm gauge, 1.25mm flangeway, rail-head width 2" scale.

12-degree crossing angle (1:4.7), enter k12 in the dialog. regular V-crossing.

custom curved switch:

switch lead: 137" full-size

switch offset: 10.75" full-size

switch radius 2832" (236ft) full-size

I think you may have gone wrong in measuring the offset -- it is measured from gauge-face to gauge-face.

I will tidy this up and compare it with the 00/H0 small-radius turnouts which I did years ago. Notice the very tight turnout radius (493mm).

regards,

Martin.

posted: 28 Aug 2014 21:59

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Keith,

I have done a bit more on this and produced what I think is a workable match to the Peco 0n30 templates. Note that I have scaled this at 1:48  1/4"/ft  6.35mm/ft American 0 scale, not UK 7mm/ft.

 .box file attached below.

Standards to match NMRA H0 gauge -- note that this means you won't be able to create mixed-gauge track with standard-gauge 0 scale.

1:48 scale, 16.5mm gauge, 1.3mm flangeway, rail-head width 2" scale, flat-bottom.

12-degree crossing angle 1:4.7 (enter k12 in the dialog), generic V-crossing, 1/2" blunt nose, custom curved switch.

2_281637_570000001.png2_281637_570000001.png

I changed the switch radius to 2.5 chains = 165ft = 1980 inches.

This gives a better tip deflection angle and a better relation with the turnout radius, which is thereby eased to 690mm (27.2"). But to get the required lead length that required changing to a generic-type V-crossing.

At 1:48 scale the timber (tie) spacing seems to be a nominal 23.25", although it is tricky to measure this with the randomised timbering. For the plain track I used the same spacing on 33ft American rail lengths at 17 sleepers per length. This gives 16 spaces at 23.25" and 12" each end.

Sleepers 60" long and 9" wide.

I recommend that you ignore the daft Peco short check rails (light-rail flat-bottom would normally have bent flares), and the equally daft bent timber at the exit.

For the switch data I have copied the data panel to avoid typing it all out: :)

2_281637_560000000.png2_281637_560000000.png

2_281637_580000004.png2_281637_580000004.png


And the printed templates:

2_281637_570000002.png2_281637_570000002.png

2_281637_570000003.png2_281637_570000003.png

File attached.

regards,

Martin.
Attachment: attach_1936_2522_peco_0n30.box     222

posted: 28 Aug 2014 23:41

from:

keithj15
 
Northampton - United Kingdom

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In one word --- WOW!

Martin you have been working so hard, and the extensive amount of information is both fascinating and goes a long way to explain some of the running issues that have plagued several members of our On30 group who have some of the larger x-6-x, x-8-x and x-10-x locos -- these run fine on the main but can be troubled by the turnout.

I have also been busy, working on the RH Peco clone, and I almost got it (more by luck than judgement) with all the timbers and the rails in the right place apart from the knuckle and the point of the V. More study and training needed i think.

I also found that the 19.4'' radius was the only match, not surprising really, although some retailers have it noted as 22'' -- oh dear.

As I mentioned at the start of the thread I have been using Templot for some time, and was one of the original Templot_1 paying subscribers. It was worth it then, and this current version the more so. So as a thank you for all your hard work on this On30 problem and patience with numptys like myself, I have dropped you a small gift.

I will let you know how things progress on this On30 project.

Best regards and thanks

Keith

posted: 29 Aug 2014 09:58

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Keith,

Many thanks. :)

keithj15 wrote:
running issues that have plagued several members of our On30 group who have some of the larger x-6-x, x-8-x and x-10-x locos -- these run fine on the main but can be troubled by the turnout.
In that case I am wondering why you are persisting in attempting to replicate the Peco design when it would be so much easier to create 0n30 templates from scratch based on proper US-style designs?

The Peco turnout is essentially the same as the 00/H0 small-radius turnout, with the same restrictions on rolling stock.

I have copied the Peco templates to the "Samples and examples" section of Templot Club for future reference by other users and as an example of Templot customizing.

regards,

Martin.



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