Hello Tony

Thanks very much for your thoughts and experience which I think maybe just what I'm looking for. I've a couple of questions for you which I've put in your text below...

Tony W wrote:

Hi Andrew.

That all looks quite neat and tidy.

Documenting your layout wiring is often overlooked but certainly essential for anything more than a shunting plank, but can seem a pretty thankless task. A combination of circuit drawings and wiring lists is a good starting point  By Circuit drawing do you mean as I described above, a Templot plan printed out at a reduced scale, and what is a wiring list ? My aologies for asking what may sound obvious to you ,but this is the first time I've been / tried to be so thorough in my approach and this admin side of layout building is all a bit new to me!  My preferred wiring method relies on soldered tag strips which can be numbered. A list of connections between tags, the colour of the wires and the function of each wire helps fault tracing. Colour coding is also very helpful as you are doing. Standardisation of repeating circuits is a good idea. What do you mean by repeating circuits? Make a record of the wiring through connectors between baseboards pin to tag strip each side. Do you have a copy of what you've done that you might be able to show me, a photograph or scan of one of the pages perhaps?

You maybe regretting having answered my questions so fully now, but any help that you can give me would be most appreciated.

Kind regards

Andrew

__________
message ref: 22543

Andrew Duncan wrote: Hello Tony

Thanks very much for your thoughts and experience which I think maybe just what I'm looking for. I've a couple of questions for you which I've put in your text below...

Tony W wrote:

Hi Andrew.

That all looks quite neat and tidy.

Documenting your layout wiring is often overlooked but certainly essential for anything more than a shunting plank, but can seem a pretty thankless task. A combination of circuit drawings and wiring lists is a good starting point  By Circuit drawing do you mean as I described above, a Templot plan printed out at a reduced scale, and what is a wiring list ? My apologies for asking what may sound obvious to you ,but this is the first time I've been / tried to be so thorough in my approach and this admin side of layout building is all a bit new to me!  My preferred wiring method relies on soldered tag strips which can be numbered. A list of connections between tags, the colour of the wires and the function of each wire helps fault tracing. Colour coding is also very helpful as you are doing. Standardisation of repeating circuits is a good idea. What do you mean by repeating circuits? Make a record of the wiring through connectors between baseboards pin to tag strip each side. Do you have a copy of what you've done that you might be able to show me, a photograph or scan of one of the pages perhaps?

You maybe regretting having answered my questions so fully now, but any help that you can give me would be most appreciated.

Kind regards

Andrew
Hi Andrew.
Basically yes.
A circuit drawing or diagram can cover any number of scenarios, from the trackwork with section power feeds, crossing feeds, isolating gaps, section breaks (although if using DCC you may not have any), to the control boards for said layout.
A wiring list is simply a list of connections between tags, the colour of the wires and the function of each wire.
Repeating circuits.
If a circuit is duplicated several times, it makes sense to use the same colour wires and physical layout each time within that circuit although not necessarily for the control wire to it. That commonality means you will be more familiar with individual circuits that go to make up the whole.
I will scan some examples for you. Most of the originals are in .doc format for ease of editing as changes are made.
Regards
Tony.


__________
message ref: 22609

Thanks very much Tony. I’ll look forward to seeing some examples as well when you have a moment. Kind regards 
Andrew

__________
message ref: 22612

Hi Andrew.
Well that has proved a useful exercise. On visiting some of the files I wished to send you as examples of how I did things, I discovered that they either needed correcting or were in the process of being updated but had not been completed, so has spurred me on to do so.
Rather than post them as pictures, I think it better to add them as attachments as some of the text will be too small to read otherwise. This will take three postings.
The first file is the Track plan wiring schematic for Green Street and may take a bit of studying.
Board 1 is to the left of the vertical dotted line, then board 2 to 4.
The tracks are numbered from the bottom upwards.


__________
message ref: 22674

The second file is for the connecting cable between boards 1 and 2 and are I hope largely self explanatory.

__________
message ref: 22675

The third file may be of some use if you have a Three throw turnout to deal with. As the blades overlap, it is important that the two point motors throw sequentially to avoid stressing the drive mechanisms. I have used Fulgurex point motors modified with 10 way connectors and ribbon cable jumpers to allow easy disconnection if required. A major consideration with an exhibition layout.
I am sure you will have further questions once you have studied these.
Regards
Tony.

__________
message ref: 22676

Tony W wrote:
The first file is the Track plan wiring schematic for Green Street and may take a bit of studying.

Hi Tony,

Very interesting!

But a bit of clarification needed - sorry if you have given this elsewhere and I have missed it.  What are the lines A,B,C and D?  Also the Ind and Ex designation - which I might be able to guess!  The diagram looks as if each of the switches 1 - 12 are just three pole, but if it were that simple, then as-drawn, throwing any one of them shorts a,b,c together - which cannot be the case - in which case, what are each of the three "poles" for, and what stops them being operated together?

Best wishes,

Howard

__________
message ref: 22678

JFS wrote: Tony W wrote:
The first file is the Track plan wiring schematic for Green Street and may take a bit of studying.

Hi Tony,

Very interesting!

But a bit of clarification needed - sorry if you have given this elsewhere and I have missed it.  What are the lines A,B,C and D?  Also the Ind and Ex designation - which I might be able to guess!  The diagram looks as if each of the switches 1 - 12 are just three pole, but if it were that simple, then as-drawn, throwing any one of them shorts a,b,c together - which cannot be the case - in which case, what are each of the three "poles" for, and what stops them being operated together?

Best wishes,

Howard
Hi Howard.
That is the problem of publishing one page of a manual intended for personal use out of context. I suspected that further explanation would be required.
A,B,C,D are the four controller buses nominally available to switch to a track section.
Ind is short for Industrial and is the power station empire. If you have operated the layout you will know what I mean by that. Controller D is permanently connected to this.
Ex is short for extra and is unused at present.
The three switch poles on section feeds 1 - 12 are individual relay contacts.
The long term plan was for micro processor control of the signal box interlocking and power feeds to sections 1 to 12 will be selected using 2 bit binary control, hence only one relay contact can be made at a time with "00" being off. At present, as a temporary measure and we all know about those, only controllers A and B are available via centre off toggle switches, in effect manual Cab control.
You are correct about the shorting issue, it is not uncommon for an operator to forget to restore a section feed switch when they have finished with it and then set up another route using another controller. If the loco overruns the section gap between the two controllers, a short occurs and Pentrollers don't like it up em as we discovered the hard way long ago.
Hope this answers your questions.
Regards
Tony.

Edit:
Perhaps the attached file may help.

__________
message ref: 22679

Many thanks Tony - I guessed correctly with "ind" - but incorrectly with "Ex"!!

Best wishes,
__________
message ref: 22681

Hello Tony

Thanks very much for downloading these for me. I'll take a closer look over the weekend and see what I do and do not understand and come back to you with any questions if I may?



Kind regards

Andrew 

__________
message ref: 22692

Hi Andrew.
I thought it had all gone quiet!
By all means.
Regards
Tony.

__________
message ref: 22695

Very impressed with the trackwork construction. If i can achieve anything halfway as good in 7mm, i'll be happy! Keep up with the updates.

Rich
__________
message ref: 22696

Hello Tony

Thanks for uploading the second wiring diagram it does help to get a better sense of the layout.

I've not got very far so far this weekend but have managed to scan my current record of baseboard no 5 (a print out of the current section of the layout printed at 20% sizing Edit COPY ATTACHED) of turnouts numbered and all wiring points logged on it. The position of the droppers are marked, usually in pairs,  at the point they are soldered to the rail, as I've often found in the past that I've forgotten where the feeds are, which can be very frustrating!

I've numbered the turnouts all starting 5 as the baseboard is number 5. They begin 5A, 5B etc and work there way through to 5K.

I don't, as you observed have the need for isolating sections as this is DCC, so my next job is, I think, to number the feed wires which I have already pencilled in. Again here I've used the board number to dictate the first numeral but I'm beginning to think this is over kill and I'll probably just re-number them 1-50 or so...? Then make a list of the wires and their function as you have on a separate Word document.

Any thoughts you have would be gratefully accepted.

Thanks again for your support and ideas.

Kind regards

Andrew

Edit: I've just noticed that the scan ive uploaded has cut a few inches off the left hand end of the baseboard chopping the first turnout in half!

__________
message ref: 22712

Richie Kynaston wrote: Very impressed with the trackwork construction. If i can achieve anything halfway as good in 7mm, i'll be happy! Keep up with the updates.

RichHello RichThank you for your kind words and encouragement. Its always good to hear !!

Kind regards
Andrew

__________
message ref: 22713

Hi Andrew.
Have you considered numbering the points as they are / would have been in the signal box diagram as this will save cross referencing later on. The signals will also have to be added to the scheme as well. This is the system I used on my layout, fictitious though it is. The points with an M prefix are those that would have been manually operated with hand levers had it existed.
There is no right or wrong way to do it, but at the end of the day you need to have something that works for you and that you can understand.
Also give some thought to being able to break down the DCC fed areas into smaller sections, i.e. using plugs and sockets to enable faults to be isolated more easily.
As it happens I do have a passing interest in Yeovil Pen Mill as a good friend of mine always wanted to model it in P4 but sadly never got the chance, so it is nice to see it taking shape in your capable hands.
Regards
Tony.

__________
message ref: 22714

Hello Tony
Thanks very much for the idea of using the signal box diagram. Deceptively simple ideas are often the inspired ones, and your idea seems to come very much in that category. 

You're right of course about the signals which aren't on that plan but need to be included and although I've allowed for them electronically I've not yet given them sufficient thought physically in either  location or construction method. As a result of a comment of Howard Bolton's that I came across the other day I've been following Steve Hewitt's authoritative thread in RM Web on signal construction which is both fascinating and instructive.

Now your thoughts on fault finding have set me thinking as to whether I've got enough places to "break" wires for fault finding. That'll require a bit more thinking I think, so for the moment I'll conclude by thanking you for your comments on on your connection with Yeovil and the compliment of it being "in safe hands". I was really quite touched by your words.

Kind regards
Andrew


 



__________
message ref: 22727

Hi Andrew.
One other thing. You may have noticed that the track diagram was marked issue 9. When you modify the layout, make sure you update the documentation to match.  There is nothing worse than trying to fault find with out of date reference material. Guess how I know.
Regards
Tony.


__________
message ref: 22736

Hmm wise words Tony but that’s going to require self discipline...! When you say version 9 where they track plan changes or something elsethat you’d changed?Andrew

__________
message ref: 22741

Andrew Duncan wrote: When you say version 9 where they track plan changes or something else that you’d changed?Andrew
Hi Andrew.
A mixture of things really. The layout was extended once with the addition of an off scene industrial siding, which required the replacement of a turnout with an outside slip, but mostly it was down to errors and amendments made over the course of time. The most recent change (from issue 8 to 9) was replacing the pencil drawn original with the computer graphic I posted, but I took the opportunity to update one of the point motor numbers from M2 to M2a for clarity. This change had been noted in red ink on the earlier working copy some years ago, so no, I don't exactly rush to do the updates, just make a note of them at the time.
Regards
Tony.

__________
message ref: 22746

Hello TonyI thought I’d replied to your response above but apparently not so my apologies for the lack of acknowledgment and thanks for the explanations!

Kind regards and a happy  new year. 
Andrew

__________
message ref: 23365

I’m in retail and quite apart from the challenges that that brings Christmas is our busy time so unfortunately gets in the way of model railways. So progress has been a bit slow of late. 
I have however now started add the plain track that connects all the point work on this base board, very roughly cutting it slightly long for its location and jus placing it down to be able to attach the droppers in place. My plan then is to spay track colour on both the plain track and point work, lift the plain track and then commence balasting of the turnouts. Then replace the plain track in a bed of PVA and ballast at the same time. My fear is that the two different methods of balasting may look different but I shall have to cross that bridge if and when the happens. 

A couple pictures to follow
Andrew



__________
message ref: 23366

And here they are. I’ve also just realised that I’ve yet to build the catch point to protect the down main from carriages wandering out of their siding between the up and down main lines. A friend pointed out its absence a couple of months ago and sure enough when we checked the photos there it was...




So little more trackwork before spraying and ballasting and I need to install the dummy point rodding as well. 
Andrew 


__________
message ref: 23385

I can barely believe that its been 6 months since I’ve reported any progress on Pen Mill. I’ve not been totally idle, nor have I made great leaps forward. The catch point is in on the carriage siding. I’ve added all the feeds/ droppers in now, so the amount of wires underneath have burgeoned. I’ve almost got all microswitches switching the correct polarity. I’ve even got close to getting the diamond crossings being switched by their adjacent turnouts. It remains to be seen whether the micrswitches stay correctly aligned to give reliable switching over time. I maybe worrying unnecessarily but I’m beginning to wonder whether I’d have been better off either using either Megapoint electronic control ( as I did on the junction baseboard)or frog juicers for this?

Does anyone have any experience of the Gaugemaster frog juicer. I have bought a couple but not used them yet and since read that they will only take a couple of amps ( my ZTC has a 5 amp output) power going through them?

The other problem of the microswitces is that they are bulky and despite the elegance of the Alu Rail brackets, being under the baseboard, am I asking for trouble having a system that can go out of adjustment and needs baseboard removal to get at them? In retrospect I think I may regret the microswitch and end up replacing them in part or completely with electronic control. Hers a photo of the current state of progress of the underside so you can see a bit of what I mean. 



Looking at this now I’m so glad I stuck (a mirror image) a copy of the plan to the underside, as I’ve found my ability to remember what I’ve just look at topside and retain that a few moments later when looking at the underside is very limited. So the plan stuck underneath is a godsend. And whilst talking of that and taking some advice from a number of you and Tony in particular, on record keeping, I’ve attached a picture of my wiring records which I’m reasonably pleased with. 



It’s not very clear but it shows exactly where each pair of droppers are, turnout numbering and what turnouts control the  4 diamond crossings. There’s a legend,top left, that reminds me what my abbreviations mean!

So now it’s July and in two weeks or so I’m off to Missenden again so there at least I’ll be able to get something done largely without interruption I hope. 
Kind regards 
Andrew

__________
message ref: 25184

Hi Andrew.
It crossed my mind only a couple of days ago that you had not posted anything for while, so it is good to see that you are still making progress.
Regards
Tony.

__________
message ref: 25185

Thanks Tony and yes it is good to be back “at it” again. 
I’m hoping to be able to make some good progress in the next few weeks. Having said that I find building the point rodding a bit of a slog and I’m not attempting to make mine work! 


The other thing that’s occupying me is the ballasting. From photos it appears to be largely ash and cinders with a little stone ballast between the rails in places. I’ve considered ballasting stone first and then covering much of it with a very fine material ( fine sand or powdered stone might be suitable?). Or maybe the other way round, adding a bit of stone ballast here and there?


I’ll try an experiment or two with some oddments of track before I commit to a particular approach. 

Kind regards 
Andrew

__________
message ref: 25186

I’m back from a great week at Missenden. Below is a photo of my progress there. In the photo you can see that I’ve almost finished ballasting and the rather disjointed look is because I’m trying to have the main lines neatly balasted whilst having the goods yard and marshalling areas with no obvious ballast at all, just ash. And I ve found this quite challenging to reproduce realistically. So bear with me whilst I attempt to finish this off. 

Anyway I had a really good time at Missenden and my thanks go to Tim Peacock who is rarely flawed by any modelling problem, to Barry and Tony the tutors who were very helpful to me once again, the gang in Studio one, Mick Bonwick for his advice on weathering and David Brandreth and Chris Langdon for running the whole show. A great week chaps!





I’ll do a bit more of an update later this week if I can get round to it
Kind regards 
Andrew





__________
message ref: 25351

Hello everyone 
Here’s a bit more detail of the ballasting I did whilst at Missenden. This is the sort of effect that I’m after generally within the station limits. So the line in the middle with dark we’ll kept ballast is the main up line and from photographs appears reasonably well looked after. The coach siding ( above it in the photo) and the goods yard are just ash by the look of it, up to sleeper top level and this I’ve found quite hard to achieve as yet. 




The photo below shows some progress since being back, with the walk way beside the carriage siding under construction made simply from Evergreen strip chopped up in my Northwest Shortlines chopper( a great tool for this sort of repetitive work).

Next I need to work out how to do the road surfaces between the sidings in the goods yard which, in this scale, needs the barest minimum of texture to suggest what would have been a pretty  smooth surface. Gloss paint and talcum powder have been suggested to me, so that’s one option that sounds feasible. Better reread Gordon Gravetts book on the subject!



Kind regards 
Andrew


__________
message ref: 25384

Andrew Duncan wrote:Gloss paint and talcum powder have been suggested to me, so that’s one option that sounds feasible. Better reread Gordon Gravetts book on the subject!Hi Andrew,

Or gloss paint and chinchilla dust (from pet shops). It has just a fraction more texture than talcum powder, and is a useful material all round the layout for roadways, tarmac, etc.

Good to see your progress.

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 25385

Martin Wynne wroteHi Andrew,

Or gloss paint and chinchilla dust (from pet shops). It has just a fraction more texture than talcum powder, and is a useful material all round the layout for roadways, tarmac, etc.
Hello Martin
Interesting stuff chinchilla dust. I tried some whilst I was at Missenden and although finer than the finish in the photos above, it was still a little coarse to my eye. The look I’m trying for is in this photo taken from the road bridge at the end of the platforms south end of the station. Looks very smooth at that distance with just the odd lump of detritus here and there. 



Thanks for your for your encouragement.
Kind regards 
Andrew

__________
message ref: 25390

Hi Andrew,

Have you tried wood ash? This tends to be pretty fine, although you may need to sieve out bits of charcoal, where the wood has not fully burnt.

Phil.
__________
message ref: 25391

Andrew Duncan wrote:Interesting stuff chinchilla dust. I tried some whilst I was at Missenden and although finer than the finish in the photos above, it was still a little coarse to my eye.Hi Andrew.

How to make dried chinchilla dust smoother:

 https://www.sealantsandtoolsdirect.co.uk/manufacturers/sealants_and_tools_direct/sandtd_decorating_products/wallpaper_and_flashing_seam_roller_P27836.html

A useful tool around the layout.

Martin.

__________
message ref: 25392

Phil O wrote Have you tried wood ash? This tends to be pretty fine, although you may need to sieve out bits of charcoal, where the wood has not fully burnt.
Hello Phil
Yes I have in past but not on this occasion. And you’re right it may need sieving but depending on how lumpy it is may determine whether I need to sieve or not. I know I’ve got some somewhere, I’ll give it a try and let you know.

Thanks for the idea. 
Kind regards 
Andrew

__________
message ref: 25397

Martin Wynne wrote: How to make dried chinchilla dust smoother:

 https://www.sealantsandtoolsdirect.co.uk/manufacturers/sealants_and_tools_direct/sandtd_decorating_products/wallpaper_and_flashing_seam_roller_P27836.html

A useful tool around the layout.
Hello Martin
Neat idea. Think I may have one of these somewhere in the cellar. Might work well with the ash idea as well?
Many thanks
Andrew

__________
message ref: 25398

I have found a pestle and mortar a useful way of reducing the grain size of ballast and other scenic materials.  A woman's stocking can be used to control the application of powdery materials.

I recently tried the Gravett technique of talc on wet gloss paint to simulate a tarmac surface with some success, although the texture can be vulnerable to subsequent unwanted abrasions.

Getting the yard surface up to top of sleeper height has been a problem for me too.  Since the track concerned is being constructed in situ I still have the option of applying Das clay or the like around the sleepers that have been glued in place before fixing chairs and rails to the sleepers.  I suspect that trying to build up the ground after the rail is in place might well lead to unacceptable results.  However, this particular project (part of my planned West Highland layout) has gone on the back burner with I grapple with the revival of a forty-year old layout, the trackwork on which was finished long ago.

__________
message ref: 25399

Hello John

Thanks for the pestle and mortar idea and yes I tried the stocking idea with the chinchilla dust for the first time last week but still found it too coarse. Maybe with Martins idea of a roller to flatten the lumpy bits that may now work. As I don’t have any chinchilla material (lasts weeks experiment was borrow from a friend) I’ll try the wood ash through a stocking and roller it flat where necessary and see how that comes out
Watch this space!
Kind regards
Andrew

__________
message ref: 25400

Hello again John 

I forgot to reply to your thought on ground levels. I thought I’d try just building up the ground between sidings with card cut, of course, to shape from a spare print out of the area that Templot can provide at the push of a button. This is when I’ll find out how closely I’ve laid my track to the Templot plan!

As to the ballast levels between the rails this is  less of a problem. The bit outside the rails between the sleepers may well have to done manually with dilute PVA and ash. Laborious but for areas at the front of the layout probably worth doing 

Incidentally I’ve got a long barrow crossing to make through point work and I’ll try the print out technique there as well. Might save a lot of time.

Andrew 

__________
message ref: 25401

I'm a sucker for ready to use stuff. On the yard on my 3mm layout I used some stuff from Greenscene called textured paint; Squires sell it, £3.79 for a 125 ml bottle. Comes in various colours, mainly shades of grey. The colour doesn't matter, as I paint it once dry with dilute acrylics. The paint, being acrylic, can also be diluted with water, useful if you want it easier to work with.

Re raising the yard level, I've just bought some 3mm thick foamboard; you get loads in a pack of A1 sheets, for not a lot of money. Can think of various uses.

Nigel

__________
message ref: 25404

Andrew, I don't know if this is of interest to you: http://www.ukrailwayana.com/ At Stafford Railwayana Auctions. It didn't sell in May. Ian
__________
message ref: 25424

Nigel Brown wrote: I'm a sucker for ready to use stuff. On the yard on my 3mm layout I used some stuff from Greenscene called textured paint; Squires sell it, £3.79 for a 125 ml bottle. Comes in various colours, mainly shades of grey. The colour doesn't matter, as I paint it once dry with dilute acrylics. The paint, being acrylic, can also be diluted with water, useful if you want it easier to work with.

Re raising the yard level, I've just bought some 3mm thick foamboard; you get loads in a pack of A1 sheets, for not a lot of money. Can think of various uses.

Nigel
Hello Nigel 

The textured paint sound interesting. Is it like a fine version of Sandtex the exterior paint? Have you, by chance, got a close up photo of it that you could post?

Foam board would I think be too thick for my purposes here. I only need to pack it up just over half a mill to get top of sleeper height as I’m using the thin sleepers which I think are 0.8mm thick. 

Kind regards
Andrew


__________
message ref: 25431

Hello Andrew,
How about using greyboard as a packing material. It's available in a variety of thicknesses, 600micron, 750micron or 800micron might be just right. I can recommend ( http://www.funkypen.co.uk/GREYBOARD1.html ) as I have them before. Regards, Graham
Nigel Brown wrote: I'm a sucker for ready to use stuff. On the yard on my 3mm layout I used some stuff from Greenscene called textured paint; Squires sell it, £3.79 for a 125 ml bottle. Comes in various colours, mainly shades of grey. The colour doesn't matter, as I paint it once dry with dilute acrylics. The paint, being acrylic, can also be diluted with water, useful if you want it easier to work with.


Re raising the yard level, I've just bought some 3mm thick foamboard; you get loads in a pack of A1 sheets, for not a lot of money. Can think of various uses.

Nigel
Hello Nigel 

The textured paint sound interesting. Is it like a fine version of Sandtex the exterior paint? Have you, by chance, got a close up photo of it that you could post?

Foam board would I think be too thick for my purposes here. I only need to pack it up just over half a mill to get top of sleeper height as I’m using the thin sleepers which I think are 0.8mm thick. 

Kind regards
Andrew



__________
message ref: 25432