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             Rating                           Building Yeovil Pen Mill in EM
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161st message | this message only posted: 13 Sep 2018 11:40
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Nigel Brown
 

 

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Andrew Duncan wrote: madscientist wrote: having reviewed both , I found the switching in cobalts to be more robust then tortoisesHello Dave
That’s interesting, have you understood why? Like Martin I’ve had a Tortoise apart and although by looking I wouldn’t condemn them out of hand, my experience says there is something wrong with the design both from my experience and those of others. 

Have you taken one of the Cobalts apart to see why they seem better?

Kind regards 
Andrew
For the record, apart from the fact that I find them noisy, I've not had any problem with the switching on my tortoises. I do take trouble to make sure that when the tortoise is in mid travel the switch blades are also in mid position.

Nigel

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162nd message | this message only posted: 13 Sep 2018 12:47
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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There are 3 problems with the Tortoise switching:

1. plain copper is not a satisfactory contact material for other than very low currents. The Tortoise switches use phosphor-bronze wipers running along tracks of thin copper foil on the printed circuit board.

If you can guarantee that you will never switch into a short-circuit condition, they are probably acceptable. That would happen for example if a loco or just a metal wheel is left bridging an isolation gap in the rails, with power on, and the points are then reversed against it.

What then happens is that the full short-circuit current passes through the copper track as the wiper makes contact with it (until the short-circuit protection operates). The thin copper is very likely to be burnt and permanently damaged. Future operation of the contacts will be degraded, probably leading to a high-resistance contact instead of zero.


2. the actual design of the printed circuit board is very poor, with the tracks misaligned with the wipers. Andrew Jukes went so far as to have new circuit boards made for his Tortoise point motors.

A full account of all this is at (2 pages): 

 https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=360

I believe the Tortoise circuit boards have since been through several design revisions by the manufacturers. That is indicative of the problem, and it is not easy to know if you are buying fresh stock.


3. contact pressure relies on the Tortoise motors being used in stall mode, i.e. the current remains on permanently in each position. As simple point motors they will operate the points just fine if you choose instead to switch the power off after movement is complete. This saves on power consumption and eliminates the slight buzzing noise from the stalled motors.

However, if you do that, the back pressure from the points linkage causes the plastic drive arm to twist slightly, lifting the wipers from the copper tracks.

Some have argued that this is not a fair criticism, because the Tortoise motors are intended to be used in stall mode, as indicated in their instructions.

I would argue that it is indicative of the poor design of these switches, and limits a useful way of using the Tortoise point motors.

One user I know, to operate his Tortoise motors, would connect the required one to the loco controller (DC) with a simple on-off switch, drive the points across visually using the loco controller, and then switch it off. It worked fine as a simple method of operating the points, needing no extra power supply or double-pole switches -- but failed because of the failure of the internal polarity switches to maintain contact with the power off.

Martin.

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163rd message | this message only posted: 14 Sep 2018 07:45
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Andrew , Martin has covered most of the issues

I disassembled a recent tortoise and a cobalt omega ( I also traced the circuit diagram out for the cobalt )

As Martin says , tortoise is using bare copper , cobalt is gold tinned , the cobalt  wiper is better engineered and the contact area is better

As cobalts don’t use a special stall motor , merely a 5V motor that is powered via a comparatively high resistance feed , they then use a considerable gear train to reduce the motor speed to the arm speed , much more then the tortoise . This means that it’s not possible to mechanically force the actuator arm back from its stop position , so cobalts remain in position with the power present ( in stall ) or not , whereas with tortoises you can move the arm and hence if you remove power you loose pressure on the blades

The main thing I don’t like about the cobalts is their power consumption in stall , upwards of 60mA stall current when the operating voltage is 12v , around 30mA when actually moving ( if you can arrange it , try and power cobalts from about 7v , anything above that is wasted in the internal zenner diodes ) . There is no audible buzz from the cobalts in powered stall 

Note these comments apply to the cobalt omega , not the IP

And of course the cobalt is considerably smaller and has a lifetime warranty 
As a general comment , I do feel the switches are a weak design in both tortoise and cobalts and a belt and braces approach would be to use the point motor switch to switch an external relay,  it I doubt many will bother 

All in all , I can’t see why anyone would bother on this side of the pond with tortoises quite frankly

Dave

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164th message | this message only posted: 14 Sep 2018 13:18
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Dave
Very clear succinct answer thank you. The only bit I didn’t understand was the reference to the two different types of Cobalt. Are you referring to the ordinary and DDC ready types?

Thanks again 
Andrew

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165th message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2018 00:00
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Andrew Duncan wrote: Hello Dave
Very clear succinct answer thank you. The only bit I didn’t understand was the reference to the two different types of Cobalt. Are you referring to the ordinary and DDC ready types?

Thanks again 
Andrew
DCC concepts tend to love their own marketing speak  , so you gets lots of it ! 
The Omega , is now the lowest spec , which is an improved version of the original ( the classic ) 

The Analog IP is basically a V2.0 version of the omega , with improved power supply range ,microprocessor control of the motor , and improved contacts , it’s easily worth the extra 2 quid or so, in fact I wonder why DCC concepts keep the omega in the range .( the difference is nearly nothing if you buy the 6 pack )  It also cuts off the motor at the end of the movement removing one of the big issues with the Omega , which is the high stall current , so unlike the Omega , the IP isn’t actually a stall type PM at all. 

The analog IP isn’t really any more “ digital ready “then the omega other then it can use DCC track power as a source of motor power 

The digital IP is DCC compatible 

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166th message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2018 09:55
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: madscientist wrote: As Henry Ford said 

If I asked my customers , they’d have just said “faster horses”
Which don't need petrol, and don't drive on the wrong side of the road if they lose the GPS signal. :)

Andrew is modelling the railway at a time when they employed thousands of horses, see:

 http://www.movietone.com/assets/BMN0624/wmv/BMN_92091_3.wmv

Here is an interesting picture, from the above Movietone newsreel clip showing (allegedly?) the last working shunting horse on BR, filmed on 27th Feb 1967. Notice the catch points in the foreground -- the turnout rail is chaired on alternate timbers only. The only reason I can think for this is economy of chair castings. This may be a one-off for this location (Newmarket) or maybe typical of GER / LNER practice generally -- anyone know?



Picture linked from the PhotoBucket site: http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z205/lamdelz/

regards,

Martin.
Martin and Dave

Now I’ve just caught up with you on this. When Dave first made the rather bold statement that you were getting not only older, but odder too boot, I was expecting verbal  fisty cuffs or pistols at dawn,
For some reason the meaning of Henry Ford quote eluded me. It took my French wife ( and it’s a well known fact that the French have no sense of humour) to explain to me what Dave was saying! Which made us both chuckle, me at both myself for not understanding it in the first place and at Dave’s wit. 

Your response brought further amusement at the kitchen table this morning. Thus disproving my previous statement about the French;a very entertaining way start a Saturday morning. Thanks to you both. 

Andew



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167th message | this message only posted: 2 Oct 2018 22:33
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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A little bit of progress on the electrics front. I’ve installed and tested with my ZTC 511 and it’s 5 amp power supply, three of the Gaugemaster Autofrogs and they seem very smooth in changing over the polarity. That is to say that running a loco dead slow over the crossing there doesn’t appear to be any hesitation as it hits the opposite polarity. Will they last the course, would it have been better to employ Tam Valley frog juicers, or should I have used relays as I did on the junction board? Only time and using them will tell. 

Here’s a picture or two of how i installed them. They come unwired and with just three solder pads on the underside, two to connect to the track power and one for the crossing itself. Not wanting to solder them in directly to the layout wiring I soldered three short wires from the pads which then go to a Chocolate Block strip double sided to the top of the Autofrog. I also double sided the Autofrog to the baseboard. Then I connected the three wires that had gone to the micro switch to the Chocolate Block strip on top of the Autofrog. And that is the job done really. If they fail then I can remove and replace them easily. 


 To do this testing incidentally I’ve been trying to convert a Buffalo pannier to EM but it’s not running as well as it used to as an OO model. I thought it would be an easy conversion having outside frames all I need to do is to push the wheels out on on their axels and insert some fibre washers cut open just enough to allow their installation, extend the brake block lateral spacing and that would be it. It wasn’t quite that simple and as I say the running is quite up to scratch as yet. When I’ve got it sorted I’ll post a video of it working( very exciting! ) if some kind soul would would tell me how to put a video up?



Sorry, just one picture as it turns out. Sometimes I think I’ve got the hang of resizing and uploading, then it all goes to pot and the computer shows who’s really in charge. This is the picture of the Autofrog installed, to state the obvious.

Kind regards 
Andrew



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168th message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2018 22:05
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Can anyone tell me how to upload a video  preferably without involving YouTube as I don’t have an account with them.

Kind regards 
Andrew


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169th message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2018 23:00
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Duncan wrote: Hello Can anyone tell me how to upload a video  preferably without involving YouTube as I don’t have an account with them.Hi Andrew,

You need an account somewhere in order to upload a video.

Unless it's a very short clip in a format supported as an attachment here. (SWF, GIF, MP4, FBR). 10MB max.

YouTube is the easiest to use. If you don't want to create a YouTube account yourself, send it to me as an email attachment, and I will upload it to the Templot YouTube channel for you. (This means you will lose the option to edit it yourself.) Email success will depend on the file size. To see my email address, click my name on the left, and Profile.

cheers,

Martin.

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170th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2018 22:37
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Martin
Thanks for the offer of uploading a video. I did try to send one to you this evening but it didn’t go so I suspect the file size was the reason. I’ll get someone at work to show me what to do to use YouTube instead.  

Thanks again and I loved the photo of the style( I presume?) and church. 
Andrew

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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew,

How big is the file? What type of file is it, e.g. MP4, MOV, WMV? If it's not too big I may be able to make a temporary change to the attachment settings to allow you to post it here.

Yes, it's a stile, although not much used then as you can see -- that was a few years ago.

It seems to have received some TLC since, this is Google's view 2 years ago:

 https://goo.gl/maps/3M7hbs6MwCr

p.s. edit: just checked -- "a few years" turns out to be 16, that was June 2002. Where do they all go? :?

cheers,

Martin.

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172nd message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2018 11:29
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Martin
Thanks for the offer of doing this. Its a MOV file and its about 40mb which is surprising as its only 39 seconds.

Will the site accept a file of this size?
Andrew

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Martin Wynne
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Andrew Duncan wrote:Will the site accept a file of this size?Hi Andrew,

I don't know for sure, without getting advice from Jim.

However, I have now added mov and MOV to the allowable types and temporarily increased the size limit to 80 million bytes (about 76MB).

Give it a try, nothing to lose if it fails. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Martin
No it’s said error invalid file. Tried three times. 
Unless you’ve any other ideas it’s back to some bright spark giving me a lesson in YouTube.
Thanks for trying. 
Andrew

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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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[Edit] Well this is my first experience of uploading a video on YouTube and in Templot. Another string to my bow! Having said that it’s turned out a very narrow picture...?

I’ve done a very rough conversion on this loco ( no rebuilt chassis I'm afraid) by just putting washers in the space created by the wider gauge but with its outside frames the  narrow chassis isn’t too obvious. I haven’t finished the job as it’s missing it’s brake gear and lost a front sanding pipe in the struggle to push the back to back out to 16.5mm so that needs restoring as well.

Kind regards

Andrew 

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Martin Wynne
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Thanks Andrew.

You seem to have cracked YouTube. :)

Looking good.

cheers,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne
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Andrew Duncan wrote:Having said that it’s turned out a very narrow picture...?Hi Andrew,

It's narrow because you probably recorded it on a smartphone held upright? YouTube has then fitted it into its standard 16:9 landscape-format frame.

If you had turned your phone on its side, it would probably have filled the frame better. If you do that, make sure it is not upside down -- the camera lens on the back should be at the top.

Having said all that, YouTube is a law unto itself and not always predictable. :?

p.s. if you are widening RTR wheels for EM, it is better to set 16.4mm back-to-back rather than 16.5mm (which is for EMGS wheels).

cheers,

Martin.

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178th message | this message only posted: 10 Oct 2018 21:59
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: Andrew Duncan wrote:Having said that it’s turned out a very narrow picture...?Hi Andrew
It's narrow because you probably recorded it on a smartphone held upright? YouTube has then fitted it into its standard 16:9 landscape-format frame

If you had turned your phone on its side, it would probably have filled the frame better. If you do that, make sure it is not upside down -- the camera lens on the back should be at the top.

Having said all that, YouTube is a law unto itself and not always predictable. :?

p.s. if you are widening RTR wheels for EM, it is better to set 16.4mm back-to-back rather than 16.5mm (which is for EMGS wheels).

cheers,

Martin.
Hello Martin,

Thanks for the tip on the phone. I'll try it out and let you know.

As to the wheels they are Alan Gibson wheels that I have largely standardised on and the loco is one of his as well. A very nice kit with a mixture of white metal, nickel silver and brass which as a layout loco is good for me particularly on my old layout of Maiden Newton / Yeovil in 00 there were sharp curves and steep gradients and the weight of the white metal really helped the loco's pulling power. I've got three of them, one open cab as on the video, a closed backed cab, both of which are panniers(based in Yeovil in the early 20's and a third, yet to be built, in saddle tank format...gorgeous. So coming back to your thought on back to back I take it that 16.5 is correct for Gibson and the odd Ultrascale wheel?

Kind regards

Andrew


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179th message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2018 14:31
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello


Below is a video of me testing out baseboard no 5 of YPMill and final fettling apart I’m pleased to say it worked pretty well straight away. You may well notice the loco jumping over some of the crossings but only the rear drivers appear effected. In this model that is the fixed wheel with the others compensated with traditional Sharman three point compensation. So I think it likely that the back to back on the rear drivers is a little tight.

 It may get a bit boring watching it go back and forth, back and forth but I wanted to demonstrate to myself that I could build track that worked and just in case it stops working between now and whenever it’s taken for a run next, that i did have it working on the 20th October 2018!

So celebabrations t one side what I haven’t yet even really thought about is the signalling. I say not thought about, I really mean planned properly. I’ve got the Megapoints  board installed ready to control them but I haven’t worked out how to build them.


So far I’ve thought I’d mount them on a rectangular brass base plate with a copper or brass tube soldered to the underside that would go through a close fitting hole in the baseboard and also serve as the mount for the signal and the frame for the servo(s)to be held in. The benefit of this is to have a design that can just lift out of the baseboard without any fiddling underneath ( other than to unplug it electrically). 

Has anyone experience of building signals that unplug like this. Steve Hewitt is building beautiful signals over on RMweb but his require access underneath. I want to be able to set up a signal whilst still on the workbench.  I’m sure I’ve seen somewhere an article on building them as I describe above but I can’t remember where it was or when. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Kind regards 
Andrew


I’ll post the video separately 





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180th message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2018 14:35
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Here it is...
There is some sound but it’s towards the end of the video. 


H


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181st message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2018 15:22
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Nigel Brown
 

 

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The slight bump going over some crossings just might be the crossing rather than the rear drivers. Might. Remember bumps involving the fixed axle are likely to be more noticeable than the rocking drivers.

Like the idea for signals. I do something like that, maybe the way Steve Hewitt does it? I have a plasticard top plate (easily buried under ballast) and a plastruct tube glued vertically to it, which slots into a hole in the baseboard. The signal, including post and ladder, is built up from the top plate and is installed as a unit. But the servos are mounted and adjusted separately underneath the baseboard. The signal posts are plastic (Ratio or similar) which is why the base plate etc is plastic.

Nigel

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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Nigel 
It’s interesting you using plastic for a plastic signal kit. As a matter of interest what diameter is the tube?

For speed Ive wondered about using Ratio as they are pretty good models and a lot quicker than using MSE parts. Maybe I should try one out see how it looks. On the other hand I’ve used MSE and Springside in the past though and my concern is they may not be quite what I’m looking for. 

Needs some more thought. 

Thanks for ideas

Kind regards 
Andrew

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