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topic: 264500-SF Gauges for FB track
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posted: 9 Mar 2015 02:15

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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HI,

Is there a source of 00-SF track gauges for people using flat bottom rail such as the code 82 from C&L ?

The normal 00-SF gauges now sold by C&L are fine for code 75 bullhead rail but are rather slack on the finer head of the flatbottom rail.

Surely there must be some people building FB trackwork in 00-SF ?

Regards
Rob
Last edited on 9 Mar 2015 02:15 by Rob Manchester
posted: 9 Mar 2015 03:28

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Rob,

Prototypically both code 75 bullhead and code 82 flat-bottom rail should have the same head width -- 2.3/4" scale (0.92mm). It's a bit odd if they are not. You may find FB rail from a different supplier is more accurate.

DCC Concepts in Australia have what they describe as 00-SF gauges for flat-bottom rail, see:

 http://www.dccconcepts.com/gauges-tools-amp-fasteners/dccconcepts-gauges/2-roller-gauges-w-handle-for-oo-sf-amp-fb-rail-code-75-83

But the details are not too clear as the flangeway gap is given as 1.1mm instead of 1.0mm for 00-SF. Also they are multi-slot gauges instead of having a separate check gauge in the proper trackbuilding manner.

They are listed by Gaugemaster in the UK if you don't want to order from Australia.

For myself I think I would prefer to use the C&L gauges, if only for the advantage of having separate check gauges. If the rail is a loose fit in the slots, it may be possible to pack the slots with paper or aluminium foil or flattened copper wire (taking care to have it on the correct side of the rail, of course).

regards,

Martin.

posted: 9 Mar 2015 04:18

from:

rodney_hills
 
United Kingdom

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hello

http://www.bbrail.co.uk/Products-and-Services/Track/Rail-sections
chart dowloadale
BH 95R has railhead widt  69.85mm 47.07 kg/metre 103.772lb/m 94.889lb/yd  '95'
only FB in chart with same rh-w is 56E1 56.27kg/metre 127.6.2 FOR 4M/FT lb/m 116.178lb/yd  '116'
bs 110 wuld be abou 53.36 /m - none such listed.##heres a site that lists BS sizes
http://civilengineerme.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/standard-rail-sizes.html

at 69.85mm  wide [or v close] are  all of
BS95N BS100A BS100R BS110A BS113A
69.85 / 76.2  0.91666
THE 00-SF Spec for he track guage by Brian Tulley [see 00sf y g fILES AREA]
is 0.94mm min 0.96mm max.

SO IT DOESNT  LOOK LIKEVTHE FB RAIL IS A SCALE MODEL OF ONE OF THESE ECTIONS

found this also on 00-SF Y G [BELOW


regards, Rodney Hills

--------------------------

RAIL HEAD DIMENSIONS

 
It’s perhaps not the most straightforward area, bearing in mind the variation of railhead dimensions across Suppliers (and possibly between batches of Rail from the same supplier) and also because of the possibility of cross-supply between suppliers (see below).  Please note that the information (rail widths) stated below date from May 2009.
 
C&L RAIL
 
4 mm rail code 75, nickel silver BS95R bullhead                               0.92mm (0.0362")  [Source:  C&L];  0.90mm (0.0354”)  [Measured sample] 
4 mm rail code 75, steel BS95R bullhead                                           0.92mm (0.0362")  [Source:  C&L] 
4 mm rail code 75, nickel silver flat bottom                                       *approximately*  0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L]
 
4 mm rail code 82, nickel silver BS110A flat bottom                        0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L]                            
4 mm rail code 82, steel BS110A flat bottom                                    0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L] 
4 mm rail code 82, nickel silver 12% Ni. flat bottom                         0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L] 
 
4 mm rail, Nickel Silver 12% Ni. Code 70 FB                                   *approximately*  0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L] 
 
Rail, Nickel Silver 12% Ni. Code 55 FB                                            0.50mm (0.0197")  [Source: C&L]
 
Rail, Code 60 BH                                                                               0.71mm (0.0279")  [Source: C&L] 
 
Rail, Code 80 FB                                                                                0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L] 
 
Rail, Code 83 FB                                                                                0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L]
 
Rail, Code 100 FB                                                                              1.00mm (0.0394")  [Source:  C&L]
 
IMPORTANT NOTE:   The above information was gathered via a telephone conversation with Brian Lewis (C&L), who was anxious to stress that the manufacture of Rail is quite a crude process (basically wire drawn thru' steel rollers) and as such the above (C&L) dimensions should be regarded as nominal values only, since variation may occur between batches.  In addition, both C&L and SMP/Marcway have at times sourced rail from each other for onward sale to customers. 
The dimensions of the rail codes listed in red above were quoted to me by Brian Lewis, however these sizes are not listed for sale on the C&L Finescale website (possibly special order?).
The two rail code dimensions where the sizes are preceded by the word *approximately* (i.e. Code 75 N.S. F/B & Code 70 N.S. F/B) are shown as such since they were quoted to me as being “about the same” as Code 82 Flat Bottom Rail.
 
SMP RAIL (see note below)
Code 75 Nickel Silver Bullhead Rail                     0.83mm (0.0326”)  [Old measured sample].  0.815mm (0.032”)  [New measured sample] 
Code 75 Phosphor Bronze Bullhead Rail               SMP report this is the same size as the Nickel Silver rail (above)  [*I suspect this has not been                                                                                 confirmed accurately*]
Code 75 Nickel Silver Flat Bottom Rail                 0.905mm  (0.0356”)  [New measured sample]
Code 100 Nickel Silver Flat Bottom Rail               1.025mm (0.040”)  [New measured sample]
 
MARCWAY RAIL
Code 100FB Nickel Silver Flat Bottom Rail           1.025mm (0.040”)  [New measured sample]
Code 90 FB  Nickel Silver Flat Bottom Rail           Marcway were out of stock of this rail, so dimensions not known unfortunately.
Code 75 FB  Nickel Silver Flat Bottom Rail           0.905mm  (0.0356”)  [New measured sample]
Code 75 BH Nickel Silver Bullhead Rail                0.885mm  (0.0348”)  [New measured sample]
Code 75 BH Phosphor Bronze Bullhead Rail          No sample, but I suspect Marcway would suggest this to be the same size as N.S Rail (above)
IMPORTANT NOTE:   SMP/Marcway have at times sourced rail from C&L (and vice-versa) for onward sale to customers.  SMP was a separate company but has now been taken over by Marcway; both brands are now supplied via the same (Marcway) address.  The SMP website states:
SMP Scale Model Productions have now been taken over by Marcway of Sheffield and a price list of the SMP range of products is listed in the space below . The range will not be absorbed into the large Marcway range but will keep its own identity.  Marcway started in 1964 and SMP and SCALEWAY later in the 1960s. Both brands having different but similar types of products and a long term following.
 
EXACTOSCALE
Code 75 Bullhead Rail BS95R steel                            0.905 – 0.915mm  [Source:  Exactoscale]                                                      
Code 82 Flat Bottom Rail BS113A steel                     0.91mm nominal (probably 0.905 - 0.915mm, as per B/H rail)  [Source:  Exactoscale]
(Note: Exactoscale state that Nickel Silver variants of the above may have slight differences due to the way the material will behave when formed).
PECO “INDIVIDULAY”
 
Code 75 Flat Bottom Rail, nickel silver               0.78mm (0.0307”)  [Source:  PECO and Dave Long]

Code 80 Flat Bottom Rail. nickel silver               0.63mm (0.025”)  [Source:  PECO]

Code 82 Flat Bottom Rail, nickel silver               0.89mm (0.035”)  [Source:  PECO]; 0.88mm (0.0346”)  [Source:  Measured by Dave Long]

Code 100 Flat Bottom Rail. nickel silver              1.04mm (0.041”)  [Source:  PECO]                1.045mm (0.0413”)  [Measured sample]
 




posted: 9 Mar 2015 18:51

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Rob Despite what everybody has said on this subject C&L's Code 82 flatbottom rail's head is slightly narrower than its code 75 bullhead rail. I do have a set of DCC concepts flatbottom rail gauges. I gather there is a UK supplier. Edit I have an 00sf gauge set, I guess they do other gauges for EM & P4
Last edited on 9 Mar 2015 18:53 by Hayfield
posted: 9 Mar 2015 19:27

from:

polybear
 
 

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Hi,

As stated, the C&L track gauges have a rail slot of 0.94 - 0.96mm; C&L Code 75 Bullhead Rail is 0.92mm wide.  So I'd suggest one of the following for Flat-bottom rail:

1. Marcway/SMP Code 75 Nickel Silver Code 75 Flat-Bottom Rail (0.905mm wide)
2. Exactoscale Code 82 Steel Flat-Bottom Rail (0.91mm wide)  *Assuming this is still available, now that Exactoscale is part of C&L**
3. Peco Code 82 Nickel Silver Flat-Bottom Rail (0.89mm wide)

But please confirm with the supplier that the above dimensions are still valid before ordering a couple of hundred metres of Rail, as my information is several years old and things can change!

HTH
Brian

posted: 10 Mar 2015 00:01

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin/Rodney/Brian/'Hayfield',

Thanks for the input on this topic. I have just measured the rail head width on all the relevant rail I can find around here :-

Peco code 75 FB from 'Finescale' flexi track        0.78mm
Peco code 83 FB from US HO flexi track              0.78mm
Scaleway SMP code 75 BH from flexi track          0.81mm
C&L 4RA101C Code 82 FB loose rail                   0.76mm
C&L 4RA101A Code 75 BH loose rail                   0.88mm

The track gauges I have are for OO-SF and for 18.83 and both have rail 'slots' which measure out to 0.93mm. All measurements are as acurate as I can get and they do give the general picture.

It can be seen that using C&L FB rail in OO-SF gauges could result in the gauge being as wide as 16.5mm track but this would surely only present an issue at the frog of a point crossing on a turnout.

Trying to do FB 18.83 track could end up with gauge widening on the straight bits of track too !

The pragmatic thing to do , as Martin replies, is to take up the slack in the slots and measure with calipers around the turnout crossing areas.

I will ring Marcway re their rail as they don't seem to publicise an email for making contact.

Thanks again for your input.

Rob


posted: 15 Apr 2015 21:49

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Hi,

I can now confirm that Peco IL-115 FB Code 82 rail has a head width of approx 0.9mm. It therefore is a good fit for track gauges normally used on C&L's BH rail in OO-SF, EM and P4.

Does anybody want to buy some C&L FB rail ?

Rob


posted: 18 Apr 2015 08:23

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Rob

The system will not let me PM you, but do you want to borrow a set of DCC gauges which will work with C&L ?

John

posted: 18 Apr 2015 21:51

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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John,

That is a very kind offer for which I thank you. At present I am evaluating track materials for a series of small layouts ( which I hope I can fit into a busy life ) so I am not going to be actually using some of the gauge/rail/sleeper combinations for a while yet. If I may come back to you at some point on this I may appreciate it.

So do the DCC gauges have rail grooves that won't then fit onto C&L bullhead rail if they are made for the underscale width of the flat bottom rails ?

Regards and thanks again.
Rob

posted: 19 Apr 2015 07:57

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Rob

DCC Concepts do two 00sf gauge sets, bullhead and flatbottom, the latter being slightly smaller

John

posted: 19 Apr 2015 17:37

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Hi John,

Thanks I didn't notice that. For UK track there shouldn't be a need for two types though as BH and FB 'scale' rail should both have the same head width.

Rob


posted: 19 Apr 2015 17:54

from:

polybear
 
 

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Hi,
I've posted this information before (hopefully the text formatting will appear ok - it's a cut n'paste from an email), but here it is again for those who may not have seen it (info dates from 2009):
HTH
Brian

C&L RAIL
4 mm rail code 75, nickel silver BS95R bullhead                               0.92mm (0.0362")  [Source:  C&L]                    0.90mm (0.0354”)  [Measured sample]   
4 mm rail code 75, steel BS95R bullhead                                           0.92mm (0.0362")  [Source:  C&L] 
4 mm rail code 75, nickel silver flat bottom                                       *approximately*  0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L]
 
4 mm rail code 82, nickel silver BS110A flat bottom                        0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L]                            
4 mm rail code 82, steel BS110A flat bottom                                    0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L] 
4 mm rail code 82, nickel silver 12% Ni. flat bottom                         0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L] 
 
4 mm rail, Nickel Silver 12% Ni. Code 70 FB                                   *approximately*  0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L] 
 
Rail, Nickel Silver 12% Ni. Code 55 FB                                            0.50mm (0.0197")  [Source: C&L]
 
Rail, Code 60 BH                                                                               0.71mm (0.0279")  [Source: C&L] 
 
Rail, Code 80 FB                                                                                0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L] 
 
Rail, Code 83 FB                                                                                0.67mm (0.0264")  [Source:  C&L]
 
Rail, Code 100 FB                                                                              1.00mm (0.0394")  [Source:  C&L]
 
IMPORTANT NOTE:   The above information was gathered via a telephone conversation with Brian Lewis (C&L), who was anxious to stress that the manufacture of Rail is quite a crude process (basically wire drawn thru' steel rollers) and as such the above (C&L) dimensions should be regarded as nominal values only, since variation may occur between batches.  In addition, both C&L and SMP/Marcway have at times sourced rail from each other for onward sale to customers. 
 
The dimensions of the rail codes listed in red above were quoted to me by Brian Lewis, however these sizes are not listed for sale on the C&L Finescale website (possibly special order?).
The two rail code dimensions where the sizes are preceded by the word *approximately* (i.e. Code 75 N.S. F/B & Code 70 N.S. F/B) are shown as such since they were quoted to me as being “about the same” as Code 82 Flat Bottom Rail.
 
SMP RAIL (see note below)
Code 75 Nickel Silver Bullhead Rail                                                  0.83mm (0.0326”)  [Old measured sample].  0.815mm (0.032”)  [New measured sample] 
Code 75 Phosphor Bronze Bullhead Rail                                           SMP report this is the same size as the Nickel Silver rail (above)  [*I suspect this has not been confirmed accurately*]      
Code 75 Nickel Silver Flat Bottom Rail                                             0.905mm  (0.0356”)  [New measured sample]
Code 100 Nickel Silver Flat Bottom Rail                                           1.025mm (0.040”)  [New measured sample]
 
MARCWAY RAIL
Code 100FB Nickel Silver Flat Bottom Rail                                      1.025mm (0.040”)  [New measured sample]
Code 90 FB  Nickel Silver Flat Bottom Rail                                      Marcway were out of stock of this rail, so dimensions not known unfortunately.
Code 75 FB  Nickel Silver Flat Bottom Rail                                      0.905mm  (0.0356”)  [New measured sample]
Code 75 BH Nickel Silver Bullhead Rail                                           0.885mm  (0.0348”)  [New measured sample]
Code 75 BH Phosphor Bronze Bullhead Rail                                    No sample provided, but I suspect Marcway would suggest this to be the same size as Nickel Silver Rail (above)
IMPORTANT NOTE:   SMP/Marcway have at times sourced rail from C&L (and vice-versa) for onward sale to customers.  SMP was a separate company but has now been taken over by Marcway; both brands are now supplied via the same (Marcway) address.  The SMP website states:
SMP Scale Model Productions have now been taken over by Marcway of Sheffield and a price list of the SMP range of products is listed in the space
            below . The range will not be absorbed into the large Marcway range but will keep its own identity. Marcway started in 1964 and SMP and
            SCALEWAY later in the 1960s. Both brands having different but similar types of products and a long term following.
 
EXACTOSCALE
Code 75 Bullhead Rail BS95R steel                                                     0.905 – 0.915mm  [Source:  Exactoscale]                                                      
Code 82 Flat Bottom Rail BS113A steel                                              0.91mm nominal (probably 0.905 - 0.915mm, as per B/H rail)  [Source:  Exactoscale]
                                                         (Note: Exactoscale state that Nickel Silver variants of the above may have slight differences due to the way the material will behave when formed).
 
PECO “INDIVIDULAY”
 
Code 75 Flat Bottom Rail, nickel silver                                             0.78mm (0.0307”)  [Source:  PECO and Dave Long]

Code 80 Flat Bottom Rail. nickel silver                                             0.63mm (0.025”)  [Source:  PECO]

Code 82 Flat Bottom Rail, nickel silver                                             0.89mm (0.035”)  [Source:  PECO]                0.88mm (0.0346”)  [Source:  Measured by Dave Long]

Code 100 Flat Bottom Rail. nickel silver                                           1.04mm (0.041”)  [Source:  PECO]                1.045mm (0.0413”)  [Measured sample]


posted: 19 Apr 2015 19:34

from:

rodney_hills
 
United Kingdom

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Rob Manchester wrote:
Hi John,

Thanks I didn't notice that. For UK track there shouldn't be a need for two types though as BH and FB 'scale' rail should both have the same head width.

Rob



Rob,
Methinks this is no longer the case.

U.K. Standard rail head width WAS two and three quarter inches.
69.85mm ...

Now EN60E1 and E2 is being laid on main lines.. 60 kg/m, head...
72mm

Rodney Hills

posted: 19 Apr 2015 20:54

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Brian,

Thanks for the raft of information. Kind of you to add it.

Richard,

Point taken with regard to the rail head widths, I was really thinking of older FB versus BH where the rial head should be the same width.

Best to all and good luck with your modelling.

Rob


posted: 20 Apr 2015 15:21

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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rodney_hills wrote:
U.K. Standard rail head width WAS two and three quarter inches.
69.85mm ...

Now EN60E1 and E2 is being laid on main lines.. 60 kg/m, head...
72mm
Hi Rodney,

That's a difference of only 2.15mm (0.085") on the prototype, scaling to only 0.03mm (0.001") at 4mm/ft.

That's within the manufacturing tolerance for model rail section, so not really significant in this context.

The height of UIC60 section is 172mm, scaling to 0.089" (Code 89) at 4mm/ft, so perhaps a bit more noticeable from Code 82.

This UIC60 rail has been used for main-line renewals since about 2001 in the UK, so it won't impact on the majority of modellers. For yards, sidings, secondary lines, etc., where it is not still bullhead it is likely to have been replaced with BS113A rail, new or re-used.

If modelling before then it will be 2.75" wide whether bullhead or flat-bottom. Even the lighter 98lb flat-bottom section sometimes used for sidings, etc., in the 1950s had the same 2.75" head width.

regards,

Martin.



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