Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 07:30 from: Martin Wynne
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Dear all, I'm experimenting with adding some sound to the videos, to see the effect on file size, audio quality, ease of editing, etc. So the "wide crossover" video which I made recently is now also available with some background music: http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/wide_xover_audio.exe The file size has increased from 2.5MB to 9.5MB, so 75% of the download is for the audio component. But for broadband maybe it doesn't matter? There is a volume/mute control at the top right of the player window, which your normal Windows volume controls will also over-ride. Comments welcome. You may feel that you would rather provide your own music, thanks all the same.  But of course the main thing is to add some voice commentary, once I have got the audio quality, file size and volume levels sorted out. This is all new to me.  regards, Martin. |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 11:53 from: Jim Guthrie
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Martin Wynne wrote: Dear all,Martin, When adding your voice-over, see if your software will accept mono instead of stereo. That will half your sound file size. Also, I don't know if it is possible with your software to adjust the sound sample rate and bit rate. You might find that if you can drop to 24K sample rate with 8 bit sample size, this will give reasonable speech quality with further large reductions in audio file size. I think I prefer my own choice of background music - but it's nowhere near as bad as the Home of 0 Gauge web site of not so fond memory. Jim. |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 12:57 from: Paul Boyd
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No background music, please!!!! (not that I can hear it at work!). Generally, background music for this sort of thing, where you're trying to concentrate on what you're being told, is just a distraction. It certainly wouldn't be worth bumping a file up from 2.5M to 9.3M for - it took ages to download on the 1M connection at work. A voice-over commentary would be good though, and as Jim says you could have it in mono at a lower sample rate to keep the filesize down. Incidentally, I've just been tortured with the typical "railway video" background music on the RM CD. Who writes and plays this plinky-plonky stuff? |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 17:00 from: Martin Wynne
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Jim Guthrie wrote: When adding your voice-over, see if your software will accept mono instead of stereo. That will half your sound file size. Also, I don't know if it is possible with your software to adjust the sound sample rate and bit rate. You might find that if you can drop to 24K sample rate with 8 bit sample size, this will give reasonable speech quality with further large reductions in audio file size.Hi Jim, Paul, Thanks for your comments. Here are the options I have available for output, and a similar looking list for recording. The default settings are shown highlighted, and I used those. I tried a version at 16-bit mono 23kb/s. It reduced the file size to 6.5MB (still more than doubled) but the music sounded awful -- or a lot more awful, depending on your taste. I know speech needs a lower quality than music, but I was planning to add only occasional comments -- a fully timed and scripted commentary throughout is just too much work. Long silences in between short comments might sound odd, so I thought a low-level plinkety-plonk in the background would be the answer. Or maybe not. Most other tutorial videos seem to adopt that approach, presumably for a reason.audio_settings.png  The Help files are not very helpful and just suggest sticking with the defaults unless you know what you are doing -- which I don't. Trying every combination in those lists would take forever. My main concern is not really what it sounds like, but that it should actually play on everyone's system, and I don't know if that would be the case if I choose some other settings.The best option on file size for background music would be a midi file, but for some reason that option isn't available on any movie-editing software I have seen. Paul will like this, and it's only 30KB: http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/yak.mid Many thanks for any advice and suggestions. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 17:22 from: Peter Ayre click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin, A commentary might be slightly useful for a first viewing of a video, but as I tend to use later viewings as a reminder of where and on which tab various menu items are, the video is usually quickly navigated to the relavent section. Given the choice I think I would prefer silent movies. As an aside, I do prefer the videos to the written tutorials. Just my thoughts. Regards, Peter |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 17:45 from: Alan Turner
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Martin Wynne wrote:
You can't use a midi file because that type of file only contains instructions to play an instrument. If you don't have the instrument it doesn't work. style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"Alan |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 17:53 from: Andy B click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
For my 2p-worth of opinion - leave out the music. Instructional films of all kinds tend to be littered with 'music', and either it is really 'cheesy' muzak which is inane and just about ignorable but not enjoyable, or it is 'good' music of a specific genre (classical, rock, jazz, etc) that some will love and others will hate. I found it extremely distracting in the trial video! The main thing that I find lacking in the silent videos is an overview of the sequence to be followed - it took me three viewings of the 3-way tandem turnout sequence to get clear in my own mind how the different operations were related / grouped, and then further viewings to identify the subtleties. So I suggest a (spoken) brief introduction followed by occasional comments as to what has been completed / what is about to be done, and pointing out the less obvious (=less used?) menu commands. I agree with Peter that silent videos are much more useful than the written tutorials. Keep 'em coming! Andy |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 18:00 from: Andy B click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Alan Turner wrote: You can't use a midi file because that type of file only contains instructions to play an instrument. If you don't have the instrument it doesn't work.But don't most PC's these days have a sound card with a built-in midi player? - so effectively you do have an instrument. Whether you like the 'music' that comes out is a separate discussion  |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 19:10 from: Martin Wynne
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Alan Turner wrote: You can't use a midi file because that type of file only contains instructions to play an instrument. If you don't have the instrument it doesn't work.Hi Alan, The instrument in this case is the synthesiser chip on the audio card, or often nowadays integrated on the motherboard. Virtually all PCs with any sound at all can play midi files. So I'm puzzled why a midi file can't be embedded in an avi media file. Perhaps it can? The resultant "music" is very poor, but the advantage would be an almost negligible increase in file size. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 19:23 from: Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote: Incidentally, I've just been tortured with the typical "railway video" background music on the RM CD. Who writes and plays this plinky-plonky stuff?Hi Paul, There's a whole industry out there producing it. It's known in the trade as "Ambient Music". For telephone switchboards, waiting rooms, computer presentations, advertising, ... I can imagine producing it might be quite skilful -- it needs to be just pleasant enough to listen to if you want to, capable of being completely ignored if you don't, and able to be interrupted at a moment's notice without causing the listener any sense of loss or offence. Of course some folks might prefer silence, but in this digital age that would mean, horror of horrors, that you have been disconnected! regards, Martin. |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 19:46 from: JohnM
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Sound quality excellent. However this may not be suitable for either dial up or slow broadband. My own bb is limited to a max. of 2M. Would it be poss. to have the video without sound, or am I asking too much? regards, John M |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 20:23 from: Martin Wynne
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JohnM wrote: Would it be poss. to have the video without sound, or am I asking too much?Hi John, I could easily post dual versions of files, with and without sound. But that defeats the object if the sound track includes meaningful spoken commentary on the video. If you mean you want this specific video without the sound, it's at: topic_257&forum_id=1&jump_to=1335#p1335 regards, Martin. |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 21:02 from: Charles Orr
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Hi Martin I use Camtasia at school for producing instructional videos demonstating how to use spreadsheets, databases and other software packages. As far as sound is concerned, I think the music is unnecessary but a sound commentary can be useful just to emphasise what you are doing .I wear a headset when recording my clips and speak as I need to. I don't have a script . Most of the time this works. regards Charles |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 21:09 from: Martin Wynne
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Andy B wrote: The main thing that I find lacking in the silent videos is an overview of the sequence to be followed - it took me three viewings of the 3-way tandem turnout sequence to get clear in my own mind how the different operations were related / grouped, and then further viewings to identify the subtleties.Hi Andy, That's the reason I spent a lot of time (and some money ) developing the "Templot Synchronised Video Player", based on Windows Media Player 6.4. The problem is that it doesn't always work too well on systems with ATI graphics, and there seems to be a problem under Windows Vista. So we are back to the Camtasia Player for the present.The situation with Windows video files seems to be a complete mess. The ONLY format which I have found which is guaranteed to work on ALL versions of Windows everywhere, right back to Windows 95, is the executable Camtasia Player which we are using. Flash is a "next best", but there are several different versions of the Flash player, the page code has to identify both the browser and the installed Flash plug-in, and then go and fetch an upgrade if needed. It's not simple. If you would like to try the Templot Synchronised Video Player, a sample file is (please ignore the actual video content): http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/turntable_part_3_test.exe The idea is that the playback can automatically pause at pre-defined positions and scroll the notes to the relevant section. Or alternatively you can jump to a section in the notes and the video will jump to the relevant frame. The notes are in HTML format with full linking, graphics and formatting options, so IF it worked for everyone it would be ideal. There are several options on the right-click menu, including an option to revert to the Camtasia Player if the video doesn't display properly. Click the ?help F1 button for the full chapter and verse. I agree with Peter that silent videos are much more useful than the written tutorials. Keep 'em coming!Thanks for the kind words, but the problem is the lack of notes. There is so much more which could be said at each stage but which has to be skipped over for lack of a means of displaying it. Unlike the written tutorials where you can have a full explanation for every screenshot. But there seems to be a preference for the videos, so that's the direction we have to go. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 27 Nov 2007 23:43 from: Paul Boyd
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Paul will like this, and it's only 30KB: http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/yak.mid Oh yes - that's more like it!! (Thinks - can I use a .mid file for our "on hold" music at work?) By the way, now I'm home I've listened to the first demo (dunno why my work computer has gone silent!!). I'm afraid that's exactly the type of background music I find intensely irritating when I'm trying to concentrate on something - sorry! |
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posted: 28 Nov 2007 00:31 from: its_all_downhill
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Hi Martin Coming in on this a bit late my vote gets the no music, but the vidorials (if that is a word) ah great as you can stop and start as you like. I think some commentary would be useful but on the whole 'you' usually get the point and if not play back a bit. Hearing the file, makes me think of all those naff websites that looped music when it became possible to go such a thing. What spare time you have !  would be best used on Templot and vidorialsjust my 2p Regards Tom |
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posted: 28 Nov 2007 00:56 from: Phil O
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Hi Martin The sound track can't compete with planet rock on the computer. Cheers Phil |
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posted: 28 Nov 2007 12:52 from: Raymond
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Hello Martin, Please! No music. Don't mind silence between commentary. Regards Raymond |
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posted: 28 Nov 2007 15:10 from: Jim Guthrie
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Martin Wynne wrote: audio_settings.pngMartin, For speech, anything in the 22 - 24K sample rate, 8bit sample size in mono should suffice to give a reasonable representation of the average human voice. With certain voices, you might get problems with artifacts, and raising the bit rate or the sample rate might be necessary to get acceptable quality. But that would normally be voices with a high frequency content - like those of women or children. For music, you do need higher settings for acceptable quality over all types of content, and 44K, 16 bit stereo is the usual minimum. That's the standard of your CD player. Professional broadcast normally works to 48K, 16 bit internally, although 24 bit is becoming more popular. Music mastering and original music recording is now working at 96K and 198K**, 24 bit. The lower sample rate and bit rates were quite common on computer games a few years ago when the programmers could not access the data off the hard disk at a greater rate because of technical limitations. I remember that my company did the sound FX for a computer game and we had to resample all our work (at 44K/16bit) down to 22K/8bit). So it's a fair bet that sound to the lower specs will still play on modern machinery. For example, the WAV file which is the Microsoft standard sound file, dates from those earlier times and the standard has the flexibility to handle any sample rate and bit rate you can throw at it (within reason :-) ). And I don't like musak with video tutorials. :-) Jim. Edit ** Sorry - finger troube - should be 192K :-) |
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| Last edited on 28 Nov 2007 22:16 by Jim Guthrie |
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posted: 28 Nov 2007 19:36 from: Peter Salathiel
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Thanks for the kind words, but the problem is the lack of notes. There is so much more which could be said at each stage but which has to be skipped over for lack of a means of displaying it. Unlike the written tutorials where you can have a full explanation for every screenshot.Hi Martin, I find the mute videos an excellent introduction to the various tasks that can be accomplished with Templot. Commentary, notes or muzak would be a distraction. However my laptop does have a off/on volume switch! On a more serious note, unless I can adjust the speed of the spoken help it's value is greatly diminished. If sound is a 'no go' how about a text file to go with each video which could be studied (and understood) after one has mastered the task 'basics'. It could be referenced by a number on the video. Best Regards Peter |
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posted: 28 Nov 2007 21:53 from: Martin Wynne
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Many thanks for all the comments. OK, I get the message -- no music! Thanks Jim for all the detailed technical advice. I've been experimenting with a voice-over and it really is hopeless. There seems little point in massively inflating the file size just to say "click the tea or coffee menu item as required" when you can see it happening anyway.On the other hand, as soon as I try to add some meaningful explanation, it simply isn't possible to explain properly in the time available. For example, here is the script intended to start at about 45 seconds into the wide-crossover video: "We have three option settings for the length of the turnout road. The normal setting causes the turnout road to terminate prototypically at the joint in the vee splice rail. In other words, at the CTRL-6 peg position.It takes me about 100 seconds to read that. The maximum space available in the video at present is 40 seconds, and preferably much less. So that would mean adding a long static shot to the screen to make room, increasing the file size further. And making things much more difficult for those wanting to navigate through the frames later. Furthermore, I'm far from convinced that spoken word is the best way to convey the above information. It would surely be much better laid out as text in a table, with a diagram of each option? Everyone says they prefer the video format, but it really makes it very difficult to explain technical stuff. Static diagrams and captions seem so much more appropriate, or is that just me being old-fashioned? It's a great shame that I can't rely on everyone being able to view the Templot Video Player, because it does seem to combine the best of both worlds. The video could automatically pause, while the above text and some diagrams appear in the notes panel. To be read or skipped as you wish. You might even get your computer to read it to you, if you really do prefer the spoken word! This has turned into one of my rambling messages, so I'll stop. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 28 Nov 2007 23:02 from: Martin Dobbins
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I think it's time to chime in on this with three points: 1) The current crop of so called "scruff videos" are better than nothing and much better than training materials that may (or may not?) be available in other formats. Often the technical stuff explains itself even in a "scruff" video, especially since it can be watched again if something is misunderstood. As for explaining "all" the technical stuff, remember that one doesn't need to understand exactly how an internal combustion engine works in order to drive a car. 2) If you can easily manage a voice over for a particular subject in the available time please go ahead and do so, but do not delay the production of the next "scruff" training video because of sorting out the nuances of technical explanations and fitting them in the timeframe. Music does not belong in this type of project. I would suggest you make two versions, one a silent movie unless there is compelling evidence that everybody has a high speed internet connection. 3) Static diagrams and captions will always have their place but beware of turning into a Luddite about this, particularly when many people have praised the video format and I have heard very few detractors. I'm looking forward to the next video, don't make us wait too long. Regards, Martin Dobbins Martin Wynne wrote: (much snipped) Furthermore, I'm far from convinced that spoken word is the best way to convey the above information. It would surely be much better laid out as text in a table, with a diagram of each option? Everyone says they prefer the video format, but it really makes it very difficult to explain technical stuff. Static diagrams and captions seem so much more appropriate, or is that just me being old-fashioned? regards, Martin. |
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