Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 2650Templot v. Marmite
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posted: 12 Mar 2015 14:36

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Just posted on RMweb. :)

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96994-layout-design-software/#entry1815284

Martin.

posted: 12 Mar 2015 15:06

from:

D Foster
 
United Kingdom

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Would have been nice if anyone in the thread had said "thankyou" for providing the system free of charge. Perhaps you should install one of those tick boxes that says that the potential user has read the instructions before they can go ahead...

I hate Marmite - but I've never tried chewing Templot... ;-)

Thanks for your efforts :-)

posted: 12 Mar 2015 17:25

from:

its_all_downhill
 
North Yorkshire - United Kingdom

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Why slag off a piece of software that they didn't have to pay for but it seems to be the mode of the moment over on RMweb.

posted: 12 Mar 2015 17:32

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Sometimes I think people want to try and produce Crewe before they've mastered producing a passing loop.:roll:

Thanks Martin for some software that is very useful even for my limited abilities and of course the almost unlimited online help for when I get stuck.

Cheers Phil :thumb:

posted: 12 Mar 2015 21:01

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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I have deleted some personal attacks. Templot Club doesn't go there. Let's stick to discussing the issues.

I know we have been here many times before -- but what is actually wrong with Templot which can generate such a hostile reaction? :?

I would love to find out and maybe do something about it, but I have never been able to get to the bottom of it. Those who say Templot is all wrong seldom say what it is doing or not doing that it should or shouldn't do. In the end there is no way of pleasing everyone.

Thanks for the kind words.

p.s. Marmite is a cruel punishment in contravention of the Geneva Convention. Whoever invented it should be taken out and shot. :)

Martin.

posted: 12 Mar 2015 21:24

from:

its_all_downhill
 
North Yorkshire - United Kingdom

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Personally I love Marmite! :D

I remember when I first started using Templot found it difficult to master but this was purely because I knew nothing about the software and also nothing about the prototype that I was trying to recreate. I would hazard a guess that the reason why it generate a hostile reaction is purely due to the person not wanting to put effort into learning it. Like all things in life anything worth doing is worth doing well and Templot is the best way to do it! Keep up the good work as for every complainer there are ten appreciators :)
Tom

posted: 12 Mar 2015 21:34

from:

D Foster
 
United Kingdom

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One big deficiency in the hobby (and in the country) is that the so called "silent majority" of people who are happy and/or like things fail to say so. Far too many people are ready to moan and find fault while far too few people take the small amount of time to say something good.

I suppose though that it is a "moan" to say that not enough people speak up in defence of anything that they think is good/useful in contradiction of the moaners.

It is actually brilliant fun in the big stores to insist on seeing a manager when there is a good member of staff to be commended - it really confuses/stuns the managers - but, once they have recovered, they are usually pleased. :-)

Maybe there should be a "Campaign for Real Praise"?

posted: 12 Mar 2015 22:42

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Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote
I would love to find out and maybe do something about it, but I have never been able to get to the bottom of it. Those who say Templot is all wrong seldom say what it is doing or not doing that it should or shouldn't do. In the end there is no way of pleasing everyone.
Hi Martin,

If you are ever attending a show that I am going to I will be very happy to bring you a bottle of decent scotch as a thank you for your efforts in providing Templot to people who understand what it is for and are prepared to work towards their own level of satisfaction.

Bearing in mind I am one of the band of happy users of Templot do you actually want postings from us with suggestions, moans and such like ? May they not fuel the 'anti-Templot' people's arguments ?

Is there an option for 'moderated' posts that only become viewable to all once you have given them the once-over ?

Regards
Rob

posted: 12 Mar 2015 23:06

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Rob Manchester wrote:
Bearing in mind I am one of the band of happy users of Templot do you actually want postings from us with suggestions, moans and such like ?
Hi Rob,

Suggestions and moans very welcome here, provided they are about Templot and not about individuals. :)

There is no provision to pre-moderate any posts, and I wouldn't want it. If there is something on Templot Club which I regard as inappropriate on a software support forum, I simply delete it. See the small print at the bottom of every page. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 12 Mar 2015 23:37

from:

Judi R
 
Sutton-on-Sea - United Kingdom

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As one of the (nearly) silent majority, may I say that I like using Templot and I have learnt to create some beautiful track layouts. As others have said, it isn't the easiest software to learn but when was that ever a qualification for "good" software! I spent all of my working life in the railway industry including quite a bit of time designing P Way layouts in the drawing office and surveying them on site. I was especially chuffed when I managed to produce a symmetrical 3-way turnout with all the timbers shoved in all the right places.

Martin, please keep up the good work!

Judi R
Last edited on 12 Mar 2015 23:38 by Judi R
posted: 12 Mar 2015 23:49

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Martin,

A couple of niggles from me then ;-

I think that documenting and demonstrating the capability of Templot is nearly as important as the features themselves.  Assuming a new user makes sure that Templot is indeed a suitable program for his needs I can understand that some can be confused by the interface and sheer number of in-built functions. The concept of foreground and stored templates is different to other programs and does lead to a steeper learning curve than hoped for. I have just installed an extra monitor so I can work through the excellent looking single slip video while clicking away on the main screen to learn as I go along but it won't help a new user if they click on a Help link to find 'Nothing here yet'. There are lots of Help? buttons located in menu items but reading these in isolation doesn't always get the whole meaning across, to me anyway. I would suggest that the provision of updated videos and tutorials should be a priority, both for me at a mid level and for new users.

User inputs such as at Real>Rails>Rail Section Data are very nice but some of the other menus can be tedious. Take the configuration of a printed track plan for example. The output menu is very comprehensive in what it offers but some of the menu items such as Output Drawing Option require going into and out of menu items. Surely easier for the user to be presented with a window containing boxes/buttons for each option so you set each one without having to drop back down through the menus.

The happy users of Templot realise the tens of thousands of hours you have put into it's design and really do appreciate it. My hamfisted attempts at making small space layouts would be totally lost without it.

BTW Is there a reason ( other than your many hours to code it ) why printed output can't yet contain chairs ?

Regards
Rob


posted: 13 Mar 2015 00:28

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Rob Manchester wrote:
Martin Wynne wrote
I would love to find out and maybe do something about it, but I have never been able to get to the bottom of it. Those who say Templot is all wrong seldom say what it is doing or not doing that it should or shouldn't do. In the end there is no way of pleasing everyone.
Hi Martin,

If you are ever attending a show that I am going to I will be very happy to bring you a bottle of decent scotch as a thank you for your efforts in providing Templot to people who understand what it is for and are prepared to work towards their own level of satisfaction.

Bearing in mind I am one of the band of happy users of Templot do you actually want postings from us with suggestions, moans and such like ? May they not fuel the 'anti-Templot' people's arguments ?

Is there an option for 'moderated' posts that only become viewable to all once you have given them the once-over ?

Regards
Rob
Hello Martin,
                    If you are ever at a show I go to I will bring a nice Australian Shiraz and two glasses to share with you. Besides the hobby of model railways some of us find learning and using Templot to create formations etc a hobby in it's own right.Thank you.
Regards.
Trevor. :)

posted: 13 Mar 2015 02:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Rob Manchester wrote:
I think that documenting and demonstrating the capability of Templot is nearly as important as the features themselves.
Hi Rob,

Many thanks for your comments. :)

I agree. The difficulty is that it takes such great swathes of my time to create the docs and videos. Far, far more time than actually creating the program in the first place. And I don't enjoy doing it. If I had known how much work is involved in writing the Help stuff for a program I very much doubt that I would have ever released Templot in the first place. I can make a function improvement which takes maybe 30 minutes in the code, but which then requires the updating of a dozen web pages and the remaking of umpteen screenshots and videos. I just don't know the answer to this, except to say that I'm doing my best and will hopefully get there in the end.

Assuming a new user makes sure that Templot is indeed a suitable program for his needs I can understand that some can be confused by the interface and sheer number of in-built functions. The concept of foreground and stored templates is different to other programs and does lead to a steeper learning curve than hoped for.
The more advanced functions are needed and used by experienced Templot users, including me. I can't take them out just to avoid frightening beginners. No beginner is forced to use them -- I don't really understand what is confusing about simply ignoring what you don't understand until you feel ready to try using it.

The difference between the control template and stored templates is what makes it easy to build up complex formations from partial templates. During the development phase of Templot2 I tried an option to merge the two, but the general feedback was that it made matters even more confusing, and some operations impossible. The option is still there if you want to try it -- on the program panel window click the program > click-mode options > make-on-click mode menu item. The top toolbar shows orange when this mode is in force. It is necessary to right-click on a template to display its menu.

User inputs such as at Real>Rails>Rail Section Data are very nice but some of the other menus can be tedious. Take the configuration of a printed track plan for example. The output menu is very comprehensive in what it offers but some of the menu items such as Output Drawing Option require going into and out of menu items. Surely easier for the user to be presented with a window containing boxes/buttons for each option so you set each one without having to drop back down through the menus.
I agree entirely. I know and always have known that the complex menu structures would be much better presented as dialogs and property sheets. But those things require an order of magnitude more programming effort than the drop-down self-clearing menus. Also in the days of Windows95/98 they consumed far more of the system resources than the menu system. I do plan to replace the menus with dialogs, but as before it is a question of my time. Not just for the code, but the vast amount of web pages and screenshots which will then need remaking. Including for example a chunk of the recent single-slip video which I made only a few months ago. You will notice that all the more recent functions use mostly dialogs -- the sketchboard controls, dummy vehicle, platforms, check rail adjustments, etc.

BTW Is there a reason ( other than your many hours to code it ) why printed output can't yet contain chairs ?
It would be a massive programming exercise because of the sheer variety of different prototype chairs and practice for different companies and periods. If you have chairs for bullhead then you also need baseplates for flat-bottom, spikes for narrow-gauge, etc. If you think Templot has too many functions now, just imagine all the options to change from 2-bolt chairs on this timber to 4-screw chairs on that one, for all the different companies and periods, or for all the different types of Pandrol clips, or whatever.

And all that detail gets covered up as soon as you fix the timbers on the template. So you must print a separate template for reference -- in which case you may just as well refer to one of the standard templates such as the Exactoscale range.

But if you really want a chaired template you can do it now -- use the picture shape wrapping functions to put an Exactoscale straight template under the curved Templot rails, like this:


s4_soc_b8_curved_crossover_print_1.pngs4_soc_b8_curved_crossover_print_1.png


s4soc_b8_3.pngs4soc_b8_3.png


More about this here:

 topic 2271

and here:

 http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25066#p25066

regards,

Martin.

posted: 13 Mar 2015 10:23

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:

I know we have been here many times before -- but what is actually wrong with Templot which can generate such a hostile reaction? :?

Hello Martin,

You saw my personal list of "could-get in a tizz about" on RM web - but they have all been debated before (and get mentioned again above).  As you said in RMWeb - you are already aware.

The bottom line is that you might see the same outward reaction from three or four people yet that reaction might stem from completely different reasons.

If I had to put my finger on the "most common cause" (based on a sample of about half a dozen discussions at Scalefora)  it would be that basic manipulation of templates is not obvious because it is so different from what people might have experienced.  (there is no such thing as intuitive!)

I would be prepared to bet that we here all have different basic methods of work - how else can it be that so many people ask why they end up with piles of duplicate templates in their box and cannot understand why?

It took me AGES to get into a method of working which now is:-

Open Templot
[minor niggle:- can we PLEASE have a "I am an experienced user" button which, on start-up will suppress all the "Do you know what you are doing" nag screens  every one of which needs a "do not show again" tick - this is where Martin says "it is already there..."]

1. Get the shortcut list out and position it over the keyboard [liar - do that only when guesses start failing!]
2. Load box file (of massively complex layout!)
3. Hit "END" to hide lables
4. Zoom to work area. 
[Minor niggle - why can't the scroll wheel zoom action centre on the mouse cursor rather than the centre of the screen?]

Then battle can commence - my working method;-

1. Hit END
2. Hold down Shift and hover over lables
3. Click on desired label and release Shift
4. Hit T
5. Hit END and zoom to the action area
6. Do something amazingly powerful
7. Hit INSERT

Repeat

If I get to the point where there is not anything else to be done for a moment or two, I just hit F7 (without hitting T first) and drag the mouse: the Control makes itself known and I drop it in a blank bit of screen.  It will disappear the next time I hit T.

Now that is my way of doing it and I can hear everyone saying "I don't do it that way" and that is exactly my point - how do you get a new user to understand what that is all about and to get into developing "their" method from an understanding of the alternatives rather than by just bumbling around? 
Worse, how do you find what "T" and "Insert" do without going deep into a list of menus?
Even worse, what when you start without a box file to load - as a beginner will?

Now here is a thing:- if you go on Youtube and type in Templot you will see two vids - one by someone called 85a and another by Templot Help (wonder who they are?).  If you type in Lightwave 3D you will see over a thousand.  (Note to self - get off your rear and post some vids)

I do hope none of that sounds at all negative - even the niggles - I am after all Templot's biggest fan.

But my Ah-ha moment was a fair time in coming and not everyone has that patience.  I don't worry about the submerged horses who die of thirst, but I do worry that some of the shouters could be real enthusiasts if they could get to their Ah-ha moment sooner.

Hope that helps!

Best wishes and keep your pecker up Martin!



posted: 13 Mar 2015 10:49

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Just to follow on from the above.

So I am a new user, firing up Templot for the first time, and it has been suggested that I should not start with Crewe.  So I will create a simple oval of track as supplied with my Triang Train set with 1m long straights and 1m radius curves.

How do I do it?

Open templot and set guage to 00 xxx

Go to Template > Plain Track.
Go to Geometry > Straight
Go to Geometry > Template lengths (in millimeters)... > over type "1000" > Enter > OK

Go to Tools > Make Mirror on peg
Go to Geometry > Radius and Curving > over type 1000 > Enter OK
Go to Geometry > Swing Angles (in Degrees) ... overtype 180 > Enter > OK

Click on the Red zero
Go to Tools > Make Mirror on peg
Go to Geometry > Straight
Go to Geometry > Template lengths (in millimeters)... > over type "1000" > Enter > OK

Click on the Red zero
Go to Tools > Make Mirror on peg
Go to Geometry > Radius and Curving > over type 1000 > Enter OK
Go to Geometry > Swing Angles (in Degrees) ... overtype 180 > Enter > OK

Hit insert

Done!  What could possibly been seen as difficult about that?

Now, where is the PRINT button?

Best wishes,

Howard
Last edited on 13 Mar 2015 10:54 by JFS
posted: 13 Mar 2015 11:02

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Howard,

Thanks for that feedback. :)

I have to go out today, so just a couple of quick replies now:

JFS wrote:
[minor niggle:- can we PLEASE have a "I am an experienced user" button which, on start-up will suppress all the "Do you know what you are doing" nag screens  every one of which needs a "do not show again" tick - this is where Martin says "it is already there..."]
Yes it is already there. It is part of your program preferences -- the "do not show again" ticks are remembered if you start saving your program preferences. And there is a what's this? link right next to the tick box which explains all about this.

[Minor niggle - why can't the scroll wheel zoom action centre on the mouse cursor rather than the centre of the screen?]
It can. The mouse wheel options are at: trackpad > zoom and pan options > mouse wheel zoom options > menu items. This setting is also saved between sessions in your program preferences. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 13 Mar 2015 11:14

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
So I am a new user, firing up Templot for the first time, and it has been suggested that I should not start with Crewe.  So I will create a simple oval of track as supplied with my Triang Train set with 1m long straights and 1m radius curves.

How do I do it?
Hi Howard,

If that's what you want, I think a "You are using the wrong program" message is needed, with a link to AnyRail or others.  :)

But it is actually in the video list on the web site:

simple oval - method 1    1.9MB

simple oval - method 2    2.4MB

regards,

Martin.

posted: 13 Mar 2015 13:14

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Howard,

Yes it is already there
....
....
It can.
Ha Ha!

How did I know you would say that!  I not sure, but I think you just made my point for me - how to make it easy to get to know these things!

BTW, with the oval, I was rather thinking of it as something people MIGHT do en-route to Crewe rather than anyone's end aim.  Notwithstanding your continued advocacy of these layout design programmes, it would equally be true to say that anyone contemplating building their own track should be able and willing to get their head into Templot - even if their intended track plan is simple.

And of course, I made use of the videos all those years ago...  but - here we go again - Templot has moved on a lot in that time and it must confuse newcomers. 

That must be where we as users come in to help.

Hope you did not mind my bit of devil-advocacy - I am doing my best to get my feet in the shoes of the nay-sayers and I am looking to others to contribute thoughts on how to ease the entry (so to speak!)

Best wishes,

Howard



posted: 13 Mar 2015 18:17

from:

Les G
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
JFS wrote:
So I am a new user, firing up Templot for the first time, and it has been suggested that I should not start with Crewe. Hi Howard,

If that's what you want, I think a "You are using the wrong program" message is needed, with a link to AnyRail or others.  :)



Hi Martin,

    I see where you are coming from, but starting with a simple oval is not a completely bad idea; though I do not advocate the use of peco set track pieces.

   Those learning to fly spend many hours practicing circuits and bumps. It is a convenient way of joining a Take-Off to a Landing with precision flying in between.  The climbing and descending turns are a part of the required skill set. Established pilots continue to practice these, especially after a period of no flying, to hone their handling skills. 

   By analogy, an exercise oval with "add-ons" (eg sidings) could be a way to introduce the basic skills to beginners, and as a "get back into the program exercise" after a user's period of rest from Templot. It could also be a convenient vehicle to introduce the more advanced formations (tandems and slips )

   It could thus provide a structured path for the newcomer, taking them from the known, the set-track oval layout, to better understanding the mysteries of prototype formations.

  An index diagram of the exercise oval, with hot spot links, could be used as an alternative method for the beginner to quickly jump to your excellent teaching videos.  Such a diagram could be enhanced with links to the Real Track pages in the companion.

  Perhaps you might consider this when updating the "oval" videos to Templot2

kind regards,

Les G

 


Last edited on 13 Mar 2015 18:24 by Les G
posted: 13 Mar 2015 23:41

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

Thank you very much for the lengthy reply earlier. My comments are :-

I wasn't suggesting that you should hide the more advanced functions of Templot, just that a newbie may start by investigating too deeply in his/her hunt for the things they do actually need. Few people will have the knowledge and experience of permanent way calculations and prototype practice that you have and most people that do will probably already be using Templot. As pointed out by Howard people start up Templot for the first time with different objectives and different ways of working ( I wish my Triang set all those years ago had come with 1m radius curves....then we could have really got up some speeds without the coaches swinging off. )

I was aware of the reply you posted a few weeks ago about using a chaired printed template to produce a chaired trackplan. I have an A3 envelope from years ago with a full set of Len's templates. It was really a 'below-the belt' question to ask if there was any commercial agreement not to do it. My track building can well survive without the printed chairs if you are prioritising your tasks

There is nothing wrong with the control template/background/storage box concept providing new users get to grips with it as soon as they use Templot. The program is wasted if you are just  going to use it to print single control templates, there are several sources on-line for these if required.

The 'DIY Oval' is a good place to start ( thanks Les ) as people progress from a trainset to a scale railway even if it takes Peco flexi as a stepping stone to get there. Being able to slide turnouts around the curves at the end of the oval and add passing loops can ease new users into the functions. I know there are many other types of layout but the vast majority can be put into three groups - the ones that go round and back to the same place so you can watch the trains run and the fiddle yard-scenic or fiddle-scenic-fiddle type. Most start with the first type with a train set, some keep with this concept and build huge exhibition layouts with 30 track fiddle yards. Others move to the 2nd and 3rd type. There aren't actually that many tasks that can be required to facilitate any of these types of plan. Lots of coding for you and plenty of variations to think about but I suspect some new users won't grasp how to start a project. Do they draw track centrelines in and slide templates along it, do they start at both ends and hope it joins in the middle or do they, more likely, tack templates together P*co style ?

Howard's suggestion about Youtube vids is good and we shouldn't be just leaving everything to you ( Martin ) to do all this stuff. I am sure Howard and the other experienced users of Templot would make a good fist of this but it may be an idea to have some control of who does what bit.  Whilst it is good, as Howard points out, to have different ways of doing things we don't want Youtube flooded with 'Templot Oval Trackplan in 10 Clicks' videos.

Regards
Rob

posted: 14 Mar 2015 13:32

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Hi Martin

I must confess I didn't find Templot that difficult. As far as I remembered I installed it one evening and had a quick look at the basics, things like choosing the scale and gauge. The following evening I had a look at printing, calibrated the printer, drew a straight 1:6 REA turnout in 3mm/ft 14.2mm gauge (essentially just straightening the default current template) similar to paper templates available, saved it, and printed it out. A result! Which is always a good thing when delving into new software. After that I thought up a very simple track plan for a terminus, essentially a loop and a couple of sidings, and had a bash at that. It taught me how to draw track curved to my requirements, how to link templates together, and how to form a loop. The loop was the trickiest bit. The track curving was also not that simple, BUT drawing a particular curve is never going to be that simple in any piece of software, and becomes a lot simpler if you compromise slightly on the line followed by the curve. The example which you had at the time pointed me in the right direction, and I think the videos available today make things a lot easier. From there I went on to design and build my current layout, and just looking at the track you can see how much benefit there was in using Templot.

I'm a great believer in concentrating on those parts of a piece of software for which one actually has a need for, rathing than trying to learn the whole thing. I've yet to attempt a slip or a tandem turnout, simply because I haven't needed them, but I'm confident that if I should need them I'll be able to tackle them; there will be fair amount of work involved, but with complex items that's to be expected.

A thought. The scale I work in, 3mm/ft, is a modeller's scale; if you want something you build it, as there's nothing ready built available (although there's a lot of components and kits which give you a hand). The thing about being a successful modeller is that you need the willingness and an appetite for trying things out; give it a go, in other words. This doesn't suit everybody; some people want it all done for them, they really want something like the offerings from say Bachmann in 4mm/ft. I suspect it's the same with Templot; some people really need to stick to Peco, and some have trouble even with that.

Cheers
Nigel

posted: 14 Mar 2015 15:09

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Nigel,

Many thanks for that. Your account describes exactly the user response I was expecting when I first released Templot. A workshop tool to have on the bench alongside the soldering iron and calculator when building track.

And in the first few years, that was in general the response from users.

More recently the demand has changed to something more akin to a consumer product such as Microsoft Word, and I confess that has taken some of the shine off the Templot project for me. The constant request for more and more explanation, and repetition of the basics over and over again, has become wearying. I would love to be getting on with more complex developments while my brain is still up to it, but all I can see on the horizon is the making of yet more videos and web pages.

Perhaps I am my own worst enemy -- I have just spent an hour responding to a post on RMweb about integrating Templot with AnyRail:

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96994-layout-design-software/page-2#entry1817865

regards,

Martin.

posted: 14 Mar 2015 16:36

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Well I have to say I think the idea of starting beginners with a train-set oval is just plain daft, and I am not going there. If that is what a beginner wants or is expecting to do, they have clearly come to the wrong software.

What's more, it involves some functions which they are unlikely to need again until they have become experienced users. I'm willing to bet that a great many Templot track plans have been designed and layouts built, without the user ever clicking the geometry > swing angles (in degrees)... menu item.

For beginners, Allan Ferguson's simple tutorial is still a good starting point, even though it is now a bit out of date:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?getting_started_allan_ferguson.htm

regards,

Martin.

posted: 14 Mar 2015 18:31

from:

Les G
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
...

For beginners, Allan Ferguson's simple tutorial is still a good starting point, even though it is now a bit out of date:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?getting_started_allan_ferguson.htm



Martin,

Given that this discussion is on its umpteenth iteration, and that you are getting tired of having to explain the basics over and over in the forum, do you not think that it would be more useful if you updated Alan's tutorial, to Templot2 as a matter of priority?

For a beginner, the need to cross reference the old menu guides to those of TEMPLOT2 is a serious turn-off, as evidenced by the adverse comments so frequently posted on the subject.

Still, it is your train-set.

Regards,

Les G

 

 

posted: 14 Mar 2015 22:01

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,
                  Templot:Reaches the parts other track software can't. Seriously though I think the achievements by people using Templot far outnumber the detractors . Many really good layouts would never have seen the light of day without your wonderful program and your generous gift. The GIFT part is something many just totally miss.
Regards.
Trevor. :)

posted: 14 Mar 2015 22:13

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Well I have to say I think the idea of starting beginners with a train-set oval is just plain daft, and I am not going there.
Since t'was I who kicked  off this talk of ovals, I ought to perhaps say more about my thinking.

Firstly, you asked the question Martin, "what is wrong with Templot to cause such a reaction?" and to paraphrase your own words the answer to that is "the bits I don't like spending time on" (ie the user interface, the documentation etc.).

It is your software, your right to make that call.  Equally, to me, that immediately divides the world into two camps:-

Camp 1 people:-
all of us here plus many others who know the power and worth of Templot and say, "well that is fine by us Martin, we accept that and are very happy to support you".

Camp 2 people:-
those who, on firing up a new piece of software, have certain expectations, (unknown and unknowable),  which if they are not met in the first ten minutes are immediately hostile.

In talking about "ovals" etc, I am not seeking to suggest what a new user should do, but rather what they might do and why that might inevitably put them in Camp 2.

Now for the bottom line for me:- I am wondering if, when you chose to make Tempot free Martin, there arose an unintended consequence?

When I buy software, I start from the perspective that it is going to be a rip-off.  Thus, before I bought Templot, - bearing in mind that I already knew about track and had built a fair bit of P4 pointwork - I spent ages looking at the demos, viewing the tutorials on the website, etc trying to work out what it could and could not do before taking the plunge.  Having come that far, I was already pre-disposed to make a go of it.  And therefore its full power soon became apparent, I was hooked and the few niggles can be overlooked.

But now it is free - anyone can just download it (without even bothering to think about why they want it), fire it up, spend 10 minutes not knowing what the heck they are doing, then fire a grenade off on RM Web.  And it is inevitable because, in ten minutes, all they have experienced is the user interface and the documentation!

So what?

To me it seems that where we are just now, from time to time Camp 2 people will shout loudest and I can only suggest Martin, that for the sake of your blood pressure you care a bit less about them because - short of re-writing the interface - there is nothing you can do to appease them.  They simply do not comprehend, let alone value the capability it gives them.

RMWeb is the kind of place where empty vessels ring loudest.  I once saw that same "not fit for purpose" phrase used about the Martin Finney A4 kit - by someone who had just used the previous four pages of his thread demonstrating why he was not fit to hold a soldering iron. (But equally, in the next four pages a number of us put him right...)

Do these people really damage Templot?  I suspect that the people who are in a position to get value out of it are also in a position to come to their own fair judgement without listening to the loud-mouths - and the majority of such potential recruits to the cause will be spending more time on the finescale society forums than RMWeb. After all, how many photos of layouts on RMWeb feature hand-built track?

As Les says - it is your train set.  You have chosen to make it your way, but that means you have to be brave enough to ignore those who don't like it - no matter how loudly they shout -  because you will never persuade them they are wrong no matter how much effort you waste on them.

Hope some of my rambling is helpful - please keep up the good work and continued thanks for you continued efforts!

Best wishes,

Howard.
Last edited on 14 Mar 2015 22:37 by JFS
posted: 14 Mar 2015 22:41

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
Howard wrote:-
Now for the bottom line for me:- I am wondering if, when you chose to make Tempot free Martin, there arose an unintended consequence? When I buy software, I start from the perspective that it is going to be a rip-off.  Thus, before I bought Templot, - bearing in mind that I already knew about track and had built a fair bit of P4 pointwork - I spent ages looking at the demos, viewing the tutorials on the website, etc trying to work out what it could and could not do before taking the plunge.  Having come that far, I was already pre-disposed to make a go of it.  And therefore its full power soon became apparent, I was hooked and the few niggles can be overlooked. But now it is free - anyone can just download it (without even bothering to think about why they want it), fire it up, spend 10 minutes not knowing what the heck they are doing, then fire a grenade off on RM Web.  And it is inevitable because, in ten minutes, all they have experienced is the user interface and the documentation! 

I have to say that I agree 100% with that, and went through the same process before buying it originally.  I believe I might have mentioned similar concerns that Howard mentioned when you decided to make it free.  I do understand and accept your reasoning behind that decision although I'm not sure I would have done the same!  However, I believe the solution is simple - close your RMWeb account and leave them to it!  Any serious users, or potential users, will find their way to the right place, which is here.  It's obvious that no matter how many times you make it clear, many people are still thinking of Templot as a free Peco layout planner, then complain loudly when they can't get it to work.  For the sake of your health, leave them to it - you've done all you can.  Did I mention that you should just leave them to it????

All the best, from a very happy Templot user of almost exactly 14 years!

posted: 14 Mar 2015 23:00

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Howard,

Many thanks for your thoughts.

JFS wrote:
because - short of re-writing the interface - there is nothing you can do to appease them.
Well I can change the interface if I choose -- but to WHAT exactly? This is what makes me so frustrated -- I simply do not know what is wrong with the interface, and although I keep asking no-one will ever tell me!

Here are few questions for everyone -- how would you rather adjust the length of a transition zone, say, instead of the present method? How would you rather change from REA switches to straight switches, say, instead of the present method? How would you rather apply marker colours to different templates instead of the present method? Would you prefer a template's menu to appear on a right-click instead of a left-click? Are there too many child windows? Should they be modal? And a hundred similar questions.

I can change most things, but only if I can understand the problem.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 14 Mar 2015 23:13

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
However, I believe the solution is simple - close your RMWeb account and leave them to it!
Hi Paul,

Many thanks for your comments and good to hear from you.

I have several times decided to do just as you say. And then someone who is clearly trying his best asks about a problem to which I can easily supply the answer. Do I just leave him to sink or swim?

And then someone else supplies an answer which is badly wrong. Do I just leave it there to confuse everyone?

Quite often I get PMs about Templot on RMweb and my answer is always the same -- ask again on Templot Club and I or someone else will be along with some friendly help.

I think maybe I will adopt this as my standard reply to all Templot topics on RMweb.

Thanks again,

Martin.

posted: 14 Mar 2015 23:18

from:

allanferguson
 
Fife - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:

For beginners, Allan Ferguson's simple tutorial is still a good starting point, even though it is now a bit out of date:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?getting_started_allan_ferguson.htm



I'm  afraid  I've  been  conscious  for  some  time  that  I  should  update  that  tutorial,  and  you  have  just  poked  me!

An  issue  for  me  is  that  when  I  wrote  that  tutorial  I  was  at  the  layout  designing  stage,  and  using  Templot  a  lot.  Now  I'm  past  that  stage,  and,  largely,  the  layout  building  stage,  (I  don't  build  a  new  layout  every  year)  so  I  have  to  think  more  about  what  I'm  trying  to  do,  and  how  to  do  it.  But  it's  like  riding  a  bicycle.........

But  I'll  do  it!!  After  I've  fixed  the  car.  And  I'll  rely  on  you,  Martin,  to  translate  my  meanderings  into  a  suitable  format,  as  you  did  before.

Allan  F

posted: 15 Mar 2015 17:01

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Howard,

Well I can change the interface if I choose -- but to WHAT exactly?

Hello Martin,

Well, firstly, I think we are all violently agreeing that some people out there are not worth worrying about, so I for one am not suggesting throwing good effort after bad, but you did ask some very specific questions there so I am going to give it my best shot at helping out.

Please accept this in the spirit that it is offered - ie trying to help get to an answer to your question - it is not the best / perfect / complete solution - but I hope it might be a starter for 10.

I have had a go at coming up with what I think would address my concerns about interface and data entry and I have chosen as an example a plain turnout.

My thinking is that as soon as you insert a new new turnout in plain track, or by (say) right clicking when the control is a turnout a dialogue box like this would open:-

1129_151121_550000000.jpg1129_151121_550000000.jpg

My thinking is that this would be a modeless dialogue - it would stay open and on top, until the user closed it and I envisage the displayed data (like crossing angle) updating dynamically.

Just to get the unpleasantness out of the way (so that we can then be friends again!)  There are NO options in there to change colours / reset font size / choose a new font style...(all of which take up real estate) these are MY Colours and Fonts set system-wide by me and I want all Windows apps to use them please. All the furniture is standard to Windows and I don't have to guess what is a Button and what is a coloured Static!!!!  [rant over please ignore that bit!]

But - and here is the guts of it - I think everything people would need to commonly access is there WITHOUT any need to go anywhere else and certainly no need to go two layers down in a menu.

How might it work?  Suppose I have just selected "insert turnout in plain track" from the menu, the Dialogue box appears and I drag it to some free screen area.

So I click Swap Handing - oops, did not mean that - click undo.  I select F6 (no need for a dialogue to open - the radio button shows my selection) and I drag. Finished? Click F6, etc.  Prefer to Set the data numerically? Click the button.  (Of course, none of that precludes using the short-cut keys).

More fundamentally, once the dialogue is open, there is no need to go back to the menus - crossing, vee, peg, shove timbers, adjust check rails...... all can be set from there.

Now here is the important bit - all the time the dialogue box is open, I can see some important info, without having to refer to another window.  So I can (for example) see what crossing type is in use - it stops experienced users (well, me then) going down a path and then discovering I have been using the wrong crossing type, and when  a new turnout is minted / inserted, the user can see what has been created and change it there and then if needed. Obviously, certain entries (like Crossing entry straight, adjacent track centres, would appear only when valid.

There is scope to debate how to close the dialogue - I am thinking the "OK" would just be a close but it could (for example) store and background.

Now that is only one example, and a different one would be needed for plain track, diamonds, partial templates etc, but I do not think it is a massive number.

I would like to think that the approach might lead to another benefit - that the menu structure could be massively simplified making it much easier to find the remaining things which are still better done via menus. And, thereby, lessening the learning curve.

I do hope that provokes some constructive discussion and helps you own thinking Martin but, in the meantime... "Full power to the Screens Scottie...!

Hoping that is seen as a positive contribution.

Best Wishes,

Howard
Last edited on 15 Mar 2015 17:01 by JFS
posted: 15 Mar 2015 17:37

from:

Paul Willis
 
 

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Brilliant work Howard...

If I could just add something that would make things even more clear: if the sections within the dialogue are in a different order, it places the priorities in a logical sequence.

What I mean is that (IMHO) the top left corner shold contain the sub-panel [crossing angle, vee type, blade type] because these are the FUNDAMENTALS of a turnout. Everything else (i.e. the more complex and optional fulnctions) follows on in the order of the likelihood that it is needed. And yes, someone needs to make an executive decision about that priority rather than opening it to consultation and debate.

I don't know why fonts rile you so much, but I completely agree that a multitude of options to change the cosmetics simply confuse matters much more, and to absolutely no gain. If we were all still using green and black screens, there would be no debate :-)

Cheers
Paul Willis

posted: 15 Mar 2015 19:04

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello,
         
want all Windows apps to use them please.
Which version of windows would that be? Not all people use the same version of windows. Also people are not likely to have their windows settings the same as each other. In the future there is no knowing what changes Microsoft will introduce that effect  existing software packages. If the past is anything to go by  Microsoft render software obsolete as well as hardware on a regular basis. This in turn leads to the inevitable renewal of perfectly good programs and hardware which no longer work with previous versions. Besides that there is a whole other world that exists without Microsoft. Where would it leave those users?
I think the biggest complication is the constant introduction of more features and capabilities which only Martin knows or remembers.This means us users are constantly playing catch up. I don't think there will ever be a solution because people will always accept more bells and whistles. That has after all been the Microsoft business model since their beginning. The difference with Martins software is he makes it compatible for all the users and systems and versions all of the time.
Multi-national corporations employing thousands don't even attempt that.
Gratitude is maybe all we should have for Martins Templot and accept you can't please all of the people all of the time

Regards.
Trevor :)

posted: 15 Mar 2015 19:14

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Trevor Walling wrote:
Hello,
  Which version of windows would that be?

Careful Trevor!

The answer is ALL.  That dialogue I created would run on any version of Windows from 3.1 onwards.  Yes it might look different on your machine to someone else's but its function would be unchanged.  And if it does look different, that is because you (as a user) chose to make it look different - by adjusting your system setting - not because I as a programme foisted it on to you. This is how Windows works - all the apps on your machine SHOULD look the same.  They don't of course - because programmers - not least Microsoft - don't stick to the "rules" any more. (not having a go at Martin there - he knows my view!

As I programmer I will say that whatever other moans we might have about Windows, they have (unlike Apple) never fallen down on backward compatibility - my own programme (written in the days of ME) runs perfactly on Win 8.1.  Try it if you like:-

http://www.blockpostsoftware.co.uk/downloads.php

Best wishes,

Howard


posted: 15 Mar 2015 21:35

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Howard,

Thanks for your thoughts and for taking so much trouble to prepare that. :)

As I have said, it is my intention to replace the complex menu navigation with dialogs and property sheets in due course. It is only the knock-on effect on almost every screenshot and video which is holding me back.

A few points:
Now here is the important bit - all the time the dialogue box is open, I can see some important info, without having to refer to another window. So I can (for example) see what crossing type is in use - it stops experienced users (well, me then) going down a path and then discovering I have been using the wrong crossing type, and when a new turnout is minted / inserted, the user can see what has been created and change it there and then if needed.
Most of that functionality is already available on the info panel. I provided multiple scrollbars specifically so that the data of interest can be isolated without taking up too much screen space, and watched while making adjustments:

2_151558_500000000.png2_151558_500000000.png

It would be possible to make some of that directly clickable to change it. But note that dimensional data cannot be entered via simple edit boxes on there, because there is a lot of floating-point validity checking on the existing data-entry dialog, use of the prefix conversion factors, provision of Help notes on each line, etc. That's one area where the sketchboard control panel is lagging behind.

Your dialog has muddled up settings which relate to the prototype -- crossing angle, switch size, timbering style, etc. -- with settings related only with the program model -- peg positions, mouse actions, etc. I have always tried to keep them separate, or at least in principle. It's easy to find places where they aren't separate, mostly for legacy reasons to avoid changing the old menus more than necessary.

Some of those combo drop-downs are going to be extremely long, and may not fit on all screens. Look at all the peg positions in the menu for example. Windows can fit those on the screen much more easily as sub-menu where the top of the list is not fixed by the current position of a combo box.

Likewise you have only listed a tiny sub-set of the available mouse actions for the control template. To have radio buttons for all of them will cover most of the dialog. We would then need to provide multiple separate tabs, and it soon takes as long to drill down into them as the existing menus.

I do like the different coloured dialogs, rather than having them all the same. So that I can recognise instantly which one I am accessing. For example if I see a pinky dialog I know it is the plain track settings. When adjusting the platforms I can instantly see whether I am adjusting the main-side or turnout-side platform from the change of dialog colour. I would be reluctant to lose this feature of Templot unless you can provide a sound reason? What is the problem it creates?

If you don't like the style of buttons and controls, you can change them to a more "classic Windows" look by deleting the manifest file. That is the file:

 C:\TEMPLOT_DEV\templot_2.exe.manifest

You need to close and restart Templot while making the change.

You will need to delete it again after each program update -- sorry about that.

Note that in "classic Windows" the controls don't change appearance as the mouse passes over them, which makes it more difficult to know what is clickable and what isn't.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 Mar 2015 21:53

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello,
I was speaking as a user rather than a programmer.Perhaps that is one of the main contributions to this perceived (but not in reality)problem.
Trevor. :)
Last edited on 15 Mar 2015 21:55 by Trevor Walling
posted: 15 Mar 2015 23:04

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Howard,

Thanks for your thoughts and for taking so much trouble to prepare that. :)


You are very welcome Martin.  Even with my "home brewed" UI editor it only took a few minutes - hence it is a pretty rough attempt!   I am more than willing to have a go at developing my attempt at dialogue based UIs if you want me to.

I fully appreciate many of your points - and especially the shear workload with all the knock-ons - but it would be wrong of me to say I think the UI could be better (which you seem to agree with) without at least having a stab at what "better" would look like to me.

Equally, there are some areas of your response which speak to the frustrations which people - even big Templot fans like myself - experience from time to time, which is that, just to fiddle about with a "simple"(!) turnout the user must look in four places at once:-

- prototype related info (three levels of Menu)
- programme model related info (three levels of Menu)
- data display (requiring the use of scroll bars)
- tool access (three levels of Menu)

Rather than muddling these, I was deliberately seeking to bring them together for ease of access. I personally feel it is that very separation which makes Tempot confusing to newcomers.

Of course, that means you must be selective, but my intent was that what is included would be context dependent - for example there is no Ctrl-F4 in the list because it is not valid for turnouts (though it is not greyed out in the menus currently) and I not sure if Swell is useful for turnouts?  Equally with the Peg combo - though a button and a further dialogue box might be better - but modeless so that you can click about the list and see where the Peg goes.  And at least the function would be still available through a single point of access.

Trevor seems to think I am an ungrateful s*d who should just shut up (and he may have a point) - but I am by no means ungrateful and I have said so here many times and to yourself in person last year.  But it is wrong to say that Templot is like Marmite (which I quite like). with Templot, it is not a case of love it or hate it - I LOVE the power, the functionality, the breadth, the accuracy, the speed, the stability, the quality of the output and especially that it helps me make track which I could make no other way.    But the UI has me screaming at the cat!  And she never knows where to find half of the menu items either!

Just a final thought before I return to getting my layout ready for June...

We got into this discussion because we sense that something causes new users give up to soon (even when they are not complete morons).  I venture to suggest that collecting as much stuff into one accessible place encourages people to experiment  [What is this Peg thing (click,,,) why is that red thing moving about?  Ah ha...]   As opposed to "How the hell do you make the other end grow?" Because as you rightly said Martin, it is certain that they won't read the Manuals!

I did not get your last point about classic windows controls - surely a button which is not clickable should either not be there, or it should be greyed out? If it is there then it is clickable?

Best wishes,

Howard





posted: 15 Mar 2015 23:33

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
I did not get your last point about classic windows controls - surely a button which is not clickable should either not be there, or it should be greyed out? If it is there then it is clickable?
Hi Howard,

You said:
All the furniture is standard to Windows and I don't have to guess what is a Button and what is a coloured Static!!!!
I was pointing out that in later versions of Windows anything which is clickable changes appearance (and sometimes also the mouse cursor) when the mouse passes over it. You can therefore see that it is a button without having to guess, and that it is enabled for clicking.

In older versions of Windows that is not the case. There is no visual feedback of what is clickable.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 Mar 2015 23:48

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Personally I think the dialogue route is a total red herring. There's nothing wrong with menus, and there's everything right with them because they work. From a lifetime (well, maybe not, but it feels like it :D) of dealing with software, I think what every piece of software needs is one consistent way of doing things, and with the current menu system we've got that. The main thing is that it works. I refuse to believe that what we have now is at the bottom of the problems people have, and suspect that any radical change to the interface will not make the slightest bit of difference. You can lead cows to water and if they won't drink it's unilkely to be the path you lead them down which is the cause.

I think Martin's time is much better spent on the stuff he's indicated he's working on, namely the tutorials, videos, and features which actually enable people to do more.

Nigel

posted: 16 Mar 2015 01:09

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Howard,
Trevor seems to think I am an ungrateful s*d who should just shut up
I would never think that about anyone as all opinions help us achieve a better understanding of things.
Regards.
Trevor. :)

posted: 16 Mar 2015 09:18

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
I was pointing out that in later versions of Windows anything which is clickable changes appearance
Many thanks Martin - now I understand. I thought you meant that clickable items created in older versions of Windows did not change appearance in newer versions.

Maybe I should amend my statement to say that these days, the only way of telling which objects are clickable is to hover over ALL of them whereas a previous philosophy was to give them a visual style which made them instantly obvious.

Still, I have learnt that I am a Luddite and out of step with the rest of the world - that is probably why I still hand build all my track...

Best wishes,

Howard

posted: 16 Mar 2015 11:27

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
I have to say that I agree entirely with Nigel.  OK, sometimes I have to go through the menus looking for something, but it doesn't affect the way Templot works.  As Nigel says, tutorials, documentation and functionality (in that order?) are more important to match Templot as it is.  Whatever you do, whether it's dialogue boxes or menus, there will always be people who aren't happy and I really don't think changing the core way Templot works will change that.
Cheers

posted: 16 Mar 2015 11:47

from:

Simon Dunkley
 
Oakham - United Kingdom

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Nigel is spot on: your menu structure is fine. I sometimes wish items on the menu once clicked did not require me to go back through the menus, but the structure is sound.

What do I mean about not going back through the menus? Things like some of the options on the output side, for example platforms. What would be great would be to see a small rectangle sowing me what the current options are set to, showing the colours for the edge and the fill and also the pattern. If I want to change them, then I would click on Platform and be able to change each in turn via a dialog box with all three items clickable for change, and close the box by clicking on OK.

I would like to have an alternative spreadsheet style data entry system for shoving timbers: timber numbers down the side, attributes across the top. Ideally such that I can copy and paste in and out of Templot (that might be a touch greedy, though). Finally, when shoving timbers, is it possible to change the modality of the functions, so that I can simply click on another option, e.g. twist, or another timber, without having to close the active function display box?

As I am using Templot via Wine, some of what I am asking for may be possible in "native" windows apps, so please excuse me if that is the case.

posted: 16 Mar 2015 12:12

from:

Ariels Girdle
 
 

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I too agree that the menus are fine. It may not be perfect, but it works. If you totally change the look and feel of the product you will become unpopular with many of those who are used to the current structure and gain few new converts. Just look at the reaction most people had to Windows 8.

Far better to put effort into improving the tutorials.

posted: 18 Mar 2015 06:12

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Well the voting seems split between adopting Howard's suggestions and leaving well alone.

I must confess that having looked at the amount of work involved, leaving well alone is very attractive. :)

One thing Howard mentioned which did strike a chord with me though is the difficulty of being sure which V-crossing type is currently set, and remembering to change it when needed. It is visible on the template as the presence/position of the turnout radius end marker, but that is often not very obvious when zoomed out, or in view when zoomed in. It is also shown in the data on the info panel, but difficult to spot within the text, and not visible when shrunk.

So I have added a new indicator to show the type of V-crossing for the control template:

2_180046_210000000.png2_180046_210000000.png

Showing:

R = regular
C = curviform
G = generic
P = parallel

Showing in green on white for turnouts and regular half-diamonds or grey for plain track templates.

For irregular half-diamonds, it shows inverted white on green (usually C, but not necessarily).

Clicking it toggles regular/curviform as the two types most often used. A double click opens the full V-crossing dialog.

More about types of V-crossings:

 http://templot.com/martweb/gs_realtrack.htm#xing_types

 http://templot.com/martweb/tut5e.htm
  ("curved" = curviform)

Making room for the new indicator means we have lost the double-click tool-button, to keep the toolbar within 1024 pixels width. The functionality is still there (double-clicking on the trackpad to start your preferred mouse action) but I'm guessing seldom used?

In the next program update. Thanks Howard.

Martin.

posted: 18 Mar 2015 09:23

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,

I certainly sympathise with the workload in any change to the UI! And I think that this idea is a very positive step forward - many thanks. I for one will not miss the double click button!

Just a thought - since there are only four options, could a click cycle through the list rather than just toggling between two options? My concern is that it might lull a beginner into thinking there are only two options.

(I have come across beginners who think there are only two peg positions!!!)

Many thanks and best wishes,

Howard.

posted: 18 Mar 2015 10:15

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

Howard wrote:
Just a thought - since there are only four options, could a click cycle through the list rather than just toggling between two options? My concern is that it might lull a beginner into thinking there are only two options.
Yes, I like that idea as well!  Getting the wrong type of crossing is something I've done more than once (I didn't notice the subtlety of the radius end marker!) so to have the setting clearly visible, and to be able to quickly step through the four options, would be great.  If you accidentally click past the one you want, it's not as if you have to click through umpteen options to get back again.

Double-click?  Do people really still do that?  :)

Cheers
Last edited on 18 Mar 2015 10:21 by Paul Boyd
posted: 26 Mar 2015 14:00

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Hi. I'm a new user of Templot.

Im using it to plan quite a big layout with about 35 points.etc, for a forthcoming irish model, which will be in OO-SF

Right now I am creating simple formations

A big thanks to Martin for this program. Without it the task would be very difficult.

Martin , you asked , what's wrong, well I personally , as a software engineer and user of many modern CAD systems, I would suggest two main areas that struck me.

One is the use of the mouse. Lots of that usage is counter intuitive

Most CAD systems have fairly consistent approach these days. First you build up a set of parts , either from scratch or from templates. These parts then appear as a selectable list on a pane.

The user can then drag and drop such parts where the default action would be to attach itself to the designated " snap " point ( as opposed to peg idea ) , as you drag the new part over the existing trackwork the snap points auto highlight. ( various menus control snap action )

This allows you to rapidly and simply add non complex track and points that you previously define, easily

For subsequent actions on the part you call up context sensitive right click menus /pop ups or access context sensitive menus/dialogs that relate to the selected parts ( or extended selection) you have highlighted

This is the basis of most CAD these days. For templot the idea would be that the user creates " parts " as a library and then in the CAD itself selects and manipulates the parts. Templates etc don't get used directly

The other issues that struck me were

Far too much garish colour , as an Apple Mac user, we now are all fans of less colour , flat features ( LOL ). Simple shades of grey and colour only used to indicate clear consistent message ( red for stop , orange for warning etc )

Avoid the use of loads of keyboard shortcuts and also lots of TLAs , remembering the peg and hole TLAs , I find particularly trouble some . As a rule , these days few cad systems use lots of keyboard shortcuts. It went out of use for various reasons. The mouse should be the primary driver of the software.


When you actually analyise the templot options most can be divided up into options and preferences , options should then be in context sensitive menus, preferences should be grouped together. apple is very good at this.

That would be my tuppence

But. Great software, after I bent my head to your way of thinking , it does a great job. I of course now wreck my head as I switch between 4 design systems during the day.

Ps. I write all of this in the full knowledge of the work involved, so it's merely a commentary.

Dave
Last edited on 26 Mar 2015 14:21 by madscientist
posted: 26 Mar 2015 14:40

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Dave
Firstly, Templot isn't CAD (except in the most literal sense).  Forget anything about CAD.  CAD experience is not applicable to Templot.
The mouse should be the primary driver of the software.
No, most definitely not.  Have you ever had serious RSI problems?  Keyboard shortcuts rule, and they're also a darn sight faster than bumbling around with a mouse.
Cheers


posted: 26 Mar 2015 18:41

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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madscientist wrote:
Most CAD systems have fairly consistent approach these days. First you build up a set of parts , either from scratch or from templates. These parts then appear as a selectable list on a pane.

The user can then drag and drop such parts where the default action would be to attach itself to the designated " snap " point ( as opposed to peg idea ) , as you drag the new part over the existing trackwork the snap points auto highlight. ( various menus control snap action )
Dave

Templot does have sets of parts, built in. They are the various common crossings, switch blades, etc. These are what a real-life track designer uses to plan track work. The problem with your approach is that it's fairly rare that two templates are the same; we aren't slotting together bits of track as you do in a train set. It IS possibly to copy templates, and indeed create your own libraries; I suspect very few people do so because bespoke templates are what are usually needed.

Cheers
Nigel

posted: 26 Mar 2015 19:49

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
The user can then drag and drop such parts where the default action would be to attach itself to the designated " snap " point ( as opposed to peg idea ) , as you drag the new part over the existing trackwork the snap points auto highlight. ( various menus control snap action )
Hi Dave,

Thanks for your comments, and welcome to Templot Club. :)

Templot already contains that functionality. It is called F7 snapping. Here is an animation, sorry it is so old:

f7_snap_ani.giff7_snap_ani.gif

More about it, and the various options, here:

 http://templot.com/martweb/f7_snap_demo.htm

This is provided mainly as an aid for beginners, because the results are not very prototypical. Real railways don't design complex trackwork this way. Or at least they didn't, in the era most modellers wish to replicate, with smooth flowing curved junctions and station throats.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 26 Mar 2015 21:11

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Paul Boyd wrote:
Hi Dave
Firstly, Templot isn't CAD (except in the most literal sense).  Forget anything about CAD.  CAD experience is not applicable to Templot.
The mouse should be the primary driver of the software.
No, most definitely not.  Have you ever had serious RSI problems?  Keyboard shortcuts rule, and they're also a darn sight faster than bumbling around with a mouse.
Cheers



I would politely disagree. It's cad like any other cad system. In just the sabe way as a PCB design program is a specific firm of cad or electrical wiring etc etc.

I have offered up some reasons why newbies struggle and it's because templots paradigm is different to modern graphically orientated systems.

I repeat, it's great piece of software. But I can easily see why it's has a considerable learning curve.

" bumbling around with a mouse " , well there the whole GUI revolution dismissed in a phrase Lol

posted: 26 Mar 2015 21:13

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
The user can then drag and drop such parts where the default action would be to attach itself to the designated " snap " point ( as opposed to peg idea ) , as you drag the new part over the existing trackwork the snap points auto highlight. ( various menus control snap action )
Hi Dave,

Thanks for your comments, and welcome to Templot Club. :)

Templot already contains that functionality. It is called F7 snapping. Here is an animation, sorry it is so old:

f7_snap_ani.giff7_snap_ani.gif

More about it, and the various options, here:

 http://templot.com/martweb/f7_snap_demo.htm

This is provided mainly as an aid for beginners, because the results are not very prototypical. Real railways don't design complex trackwork this way. Or at least they didn't, in the era most modellers wish to replicate, with smooth flowing curved junctions and station throats.

regards,

Martin.


Thanks Martin , I was aware of that. My comments were more as a comparison of GUI orientated cad as opposed to specific templot issues

posted: 26 Mar 2015 21:20

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Nigel Brown wrote:
madscientist wrote:
Most CAD systems have fairly consistent approach these days. First you build up a set of parts , either from scratch or from templates. These parts then appear as a selectable list on a pane.

The user can then drag and drop such parts where the default action would be to attach itself to the designated " snap " point ( as opposed to peg idea ) , as you drag the new part over the existing trackwork the snap points auto highlight. ( various menus control snap action )
Dave

Templot does have sets of parts, built in. They are the various common crossings, switch blades, etc. These are what a real-life track designer uses to plan track work. The problem with your approach is that it's fairly rare that two templates are the same; we aren't slotting together bits of track as you do in a train set. It IS possibly to copy templates, and indeed create your own libraries; I suspect very few people do so because bespoke templates are what are usually needed.

Cheers
Nigel


Indeed. Yes in modern parlance templots generators of parts would be called " wizards "

It's not that users want whole libraries of set track. I was more drawing comparison about how modern cad orientated system have evolved.

For example. The whole issue of foreground and background templates and the user moving between then could actually be automated such that simply clicking on a piece of track , brings it to the forground. Etc. . This is typical of modern cad. You click to select and right click to context action. Templot does some of this of course , but it's quite non Windows in its approach.

I did not suggest any of these items as criticism. Merely as a response to Martins " what's wrong " comment. To me it's not menus or tinkering , that's merely tidy up . But I can see how the basic Templot paradigm confuses normal windows users and causes newbies issues.

Again I'm extremely grateful to Martin for his superb efforts

Dave

posted: 27 Mar 2015 13:58

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
The whole issue of foreground and background templates and the user moving between then could actually be automated such that simply clicking on a piece of track, brings it to the foreground. Etc.
Hi Dave,

That option is there if you want it. It is called make-on-click mode if you want to try it -- on the program panel window click the program > click-mode options > make-on-click mode menu item. The top toolbar shows orange when this mode is in force. It is necessary to right-click on a template to display its menu.

But it is the difference between the control template and stored templates which makes it easy to build up complex formations from partial templates. During the development phase of Templot2 I tried this mode option to merge the two, but the general feedback was that it made matters even more confusing, and some operations impossible. But the option is still there if you want to try it.

I fear that if you keep regarding Templot as a CAD program you will just get frustrated with it. I don't know where this idea comes from. Nowhere on the Templot web site does it claim to be a CAD program, except in the most general sense of being a computer program which prints working drawings. It was created and intended as a tool for model track builders, not drawing office staff.

There is more explanation for CAD users on the "utterly baffled" page at:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?gs_baffled.htm

regards,

Martin.

posted: 27 Mar 2015 16:36

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Martin

To me CAD is very generic term and Templot to me is a quintessential CAD application , in that its clearly a Computer Aided Design package. One needs to separate CAD from say , A CAD drawing package, ( which is a particular form of CAD) And compare Templot to more tailored CAD like PCB layout design packages etc

( PCB CAD isn't for office staff either LOL)

I know you get a lot of newbie frustration and you asked yourself " whats wrong"

As a newbie I can clearly see how the Templot paradigm is somewhat different and requires some change of approach from CAD ( as in a generic term ) approaches

Have a look at things like Autodeck's Inventor fusion , to look at a 3D CAD that adopts the same approach as Templot ( i.e. take a basic form and convert it and stretch it etc)

All of this is in the relm of conjecture anyway, because as you said yourself , its not worth tearing it all apart ( and I would agree)

In fact any future work should concentrate in making it handle more track work combination ( Y points etc ) rather then worrying too much about the user interface


personally I dont find it baffling, even if you keep pointing out menu items I miss. !!!. I find I can drive it reasonably well. Of course that doesn't mean I will produce anything resembling a prototype layout

keep on trucking
Dave



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