Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 2 Dec 2007 16:27 from: Charles Orr
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I am seeking advice on the best way to mill my own crossing vees. I am not an engineer and have been using the Portsdown Models jigs to create the vees for my Templot designs. However I recently purchased a Proxxon MF70 milling machine and am now keen to mill my own crossing vees. What do I need to hold the rail so that the correct angles can be milled? How do I calculate the angles to mill? Where on the rail do I mill the angles? I am a complete beginner in the use of milling machines  and would welcome any advice, the more basic the better.  best regards Charles |
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posted: 3 Dec 2007 19:54 from: Brian Lewis
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Hi Charles, So its no more vee orders from Charles Orr? (Sob). I could tell you how I make them, but the Proxxon will not have the power to do what I do and anyway, I mill in batches of around 400, so what I do is hardly appropriate. But I can happily advise on the angles, (RAM), and these are: 4 14.036 5 11.310 6 9.462 7 8.130 8 7.125 9 6.340 Accurate enough I think, but you can work these out for yourself using the formula RAM angle = arctan(1/N) where N is the required ratio. Regards Brian Lewis Carrs -- C+L Finescale. http://www.finescale.org.uk |
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posted: 4 Dec 2007 01:12 from: Charles Orr
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Brian Lewis wrote: So its no more vee orders from Charles Orr? (Sob).Hi Brian I felt certain that it would be you who replied first  . Thank you very much for the angle info - that's a start at least. I shall of course still continue to purchase whatever else I need from you as indeed I did at Warley on Saturday  .No more hints then? Best regards Charles |
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posted: 4 Dec 2007 01:53 from: Brian Lewis
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Hints Charles? Certainly - but I am not sure they will help. For each crossing angle and rail size I have made, (milled), a jig, which in effect is the negative of the vee angle. These are chunks of steel which would kill your Proxxon. The appropriate one of these, together with the piece of rail is held in a vice that itself is clamped to my milling table by tee bolts. This vice is a real brute - I took it to have the jaws surfaced ground recently and it almost gave me a hernia lifting it in and out of the car. The purpose of this was two-fold. Not only did it ensure precise work holding but, but by grinding the tops down by 0.5mm, it enabled me to check and reface every jig - essential if your milled components are to be accurate. The other essential piece of equipment is a CD player and discs of one of Puccini's operas, without which the boredom of milling countless pieces of track would surely drive me insane... I hope that helps. I was wondering if Martin was going to chip in. I seem to recall that his 85A Kit-Trak components were milled using a Woodruff key cutter - with a tooth taken out in order to facilitate removal of the rail. (Actually, I have a set of his here. Not bad, but not quite up to my standard.... But then, just think of the hash I would make in trying to write Templot......). Regards Brian Lewis Carrs -- C+L Finescale. http://www.finescale.org.uk |
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posted: 4 Dec 2007 02:22 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Lewis wrote: I was wondering if Martin was going to chip in. I seem to recall that his 85A Kit-Trak components were milled using a Woodruff key cutter - with a tooth taken out in order to facilitate removal of the rail.Hi Charles, It's difficult to chip in without knowing a lot more about your setup. What cutters and attachments do you have available? What is the motor power of your mill, and collet sizes? I have spent countless hours working milling machines, both manual and CNC, and I'm sure I could out-mill Brian any day... But despite making thousands of crossing vees commercially in the 70s and 80s, I never yet milled a single one. All the vees I have ever made were sheared and ground. Brian is talking about my milling of switch blades, not vees. Milling anything safely requires that the workpiece be securely clamped, and rail is an awkward thing to hold. If you proceed with milling vees, the main part of your work will be making the jigs and clamps. If you are new to milling, I suggest you make the first jigs out of hardwood. That will show you what works and what doesn't, before you spend hours making metal jigs. I will try to answer later in more detail with some drawings of suggested setups -- but you are actually asking for several hours work, and at present I'm busy working on the web site, sorry. Anyone else milling vees? regards, Martin. |
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posted: 4 Dec 2007 02:49 from: Paul Boyd
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Brian said:The other essential piece of equipment is a CD player and discs of one of Puccini's operas, without which the boredom of milling countless pieces of track would surely drive me insane...Don't you have minions for doing this? I mean, when you get to the end of the CD, someone has to put a new one in!...and I think it would have to be Emerson, Lake and Palmer for this sort of work, or Tangerine Dream. I guess Wagner's Ring Cycle could cause some interesting effects on the job  (just trying to imagine threading C&L chairs onto rail with 'Ride of the Valkyries' going full chat...) |
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posted: 4 Dec 2007 03:22 from: Adrian click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Paul Boyd wrote:...and I think it would have to be Emerson, Lake and Palmer for this sort of work, or Tangerine Dream. I guess Wagner's Ring Cycle could cause some interesting effects on the jobor Pink Floyd - Welcome to the Machine. or Jethro Tull - Part of the machine. or Genesis - Driving the last spike. Sorry wandered off topic there, to be honest unless you need some unusual V angle that C&L don't supply then in my opinion I'd just buy the V's from Brian. With the time saved pick something more interesting for practicing milling. Regards Adrian |
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posted: 4 Dec 2007 04:17 from: Jim Guthrie
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Charles Orr wrote: I shall of course still continue to purchase whatever else I need from you as indeed I did at Warley on SaturdayCharles, Not in person, I hope, since that would mean that there are two of Brian - since someone closely resembling him extracted money from my wallet at Reading on Saturday. Jim. |
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posted: 4 Dec 2007 04:31 from: Raymond Gibson
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Although I still have a very large Bridport (I used to do really big stuff, in the days when time was plentiful) I use jigs supplied by the ScaleSeven Society (Charles, you do not say what scale you work in but, presumably, other similar Socieites would produce the equivalent). Because steel is hard work to file, I take off the maximum with the a hand machine like the Dremel, then fine finish with hand files. "Onward Christian Soldiers" provides a good rhythm (& is just as good when walking up Cornish hills); but, probably, my favourite would be Cesar Frank's "Le Chasseur Maudit" (those Hounds of Hell provide a good stimulant to push on with the job Raymond. |
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posted: 4 Dec 2007 12:04 from: Charles Orr
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Thanks for all these replies. I'm very pleased to say that I can certainly cope with the milling music that you have suggested, I have copies of all of them .Martin, many thanks for your comments, I'll post later in the day with regard to the capabilities of the milling machine. Best regards Charles. PS There was a very nice lady on the C&L stand at Warley. |
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posted: 4 Dec 2007 22:29 from: Charles Orr
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Hi Martin I'm working in OO-SF The specification of the Proxxon ML70 is as follows: 5000-20000 rpm adjustable 100W motor @ 230V Milling Cutters up to 3.2mm (I have 1mm, 2mm and 3.2mm Cutters) Various collets available to hold drills/cutters up to 3.2mm Low backlash compound table (with adjustable gib plates) size 200 x 70 mm. Travel is 134 mm (x axis), 46 mm on the y axis, Z (height) 80 mm. Machine base 130 x 225 mm. Total height 340 mm. Weight approx. 3.5 kg. Three milled T-slots (MICROMOT-Norm 12 x 6 x 5 mm). Zero-adjustable hand wheels calibrated to provide 1.0 mm per revolution, one division = 0.05 mm I have a machine vice which is fitted to the table using the T slots I have milled slots in aluminium and brass sheet up to ~1.5mm. It's a very well balanced machine. Hope this helps Best regards Charles |
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posted: 4 Dec 2007 23:55 from: Templot User
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----- from Andy Reichert ----- Of course, anyone could just buy beautifully detailed, cast 1mm grooved (EM and 00-SF) frogs (crossings) from me for just US$6.95 each. Crossing angles # 7, #8 and #9. Saves buying a mill. http://www.proto87.com/page67.html at the bottom of the page. Code 83 matches UK FB rail. Andy http://www.proto87.com |
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posted: 5 Dec 2007 01:37 from: Jim Guthrie
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Charles Orr wrote: Hi MartinCharles, What do you actually want to mill with reference to crossings? Do you want to mill a jig to hold the rails for constructing the crossing, or do you actually want to mill the point and splice rails? If it is milling the actual rails, then as others have said, you would probably do the job quicker with a good hand file. If you want to reproduce the 'socket' in the point rail which accepts the end of the splice rail, then you have a fairly complex shape to form which would be a bit of a fiddle to do in a simple milling machine (as against a multi axis CNC machine) - much quicker with a few needle files in the bench vice. If it is milling a jig, then your machine might cope with cutting the slots using slot drills and taking light cuts and often. Use slot drills in preference to end mills since they cut a slot to size whereas end mills will cut oversize. Use an aluminium alloy to get easier cutting and which will not take solder. Using steel would be a biting off a bit too much for your machine. To get accurate angles, you can use a rotary table which can give you quite accurate fractions of degrees if you get one with a calibrated handwheel and a 90:1 gear which allows you to subdivide the degrees easily. You might have problems finding a rotary table small enough to fit on the table of your mill and give adequate clearance in the Z direction. Or you can make up an adjustable protractor using two bits of strip hinged by one bolt. Then you can set the angle between the strips the same way as the crossing angles are calculated - e.g. six inches along and one inch up for a 1 in 6 RAM. Once you've set the angle and tightened the bolt to hold it, for an angle in the horizontal plane, use the edge of your milling table as reference for one leg of the protractor and align the metal you are cutting with the other leg. For the vertical plane, just place the protractor upright on the table and align the workpiece to match it. This is not super accurate, but should be accurate enough for model railway crossing angles. Your milling machine is quite lightweight but should do useful work if you take it easy. My milling machine has a one horse motor and would be quite a good boat anchor, but I bet Martin and Brian would still reckon it a bit titchy. Jim. |
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posted: 5 Dec 2007 02:29 from: Martin Wynne
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Jim Guthrie wrote: My milling machine has a one horse motor and would be quite a good boat anchor, but I bet Martin and Brian would still reckon it a bit titchy.Hi Jim, Best I can find is this from the mid-1980s -- yours truly with a Bridgeport. martin_mill.jpg  regards, Martin. |
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posted: 5 Dec 2007 05:19 from: Jim Guthrie
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Martin Wynne wrote: Jim Guthrie wrote:I can only match you with a Centec 2A with a quill head. You could probably perch it on the Bridgeport's tableMy milling machine has a one horse motor and would be quite a good boat anchor, but I bet Martin and Brian would still reckon it a bit titchy.Hi Jim, But I can get it in my very small workshopin the garage. I think I would need to rebuild the garage to get a Bridgeport in Jim. |
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posted: 5 Dec 2007 21:41 from: Charles Orr
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Jim Guthrie wrote: What do you actually want to mill with reference to crossings? Do you want to mill a jig to hold the rails for constructing the crossing, or do you actually want to mill the point and splice rails?Hi Jim I actually want to mill the point and splice rails. I know I can make them by filing, I must have made at least 50 by now. I want to learn how to use the milling machine. Thanks for all the input so far Best regards Charles |
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posted: 6 Dec 2007 20:04 from: GeoffJones
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Charles Orr wrote:I actually want to mill the point and splice rails.Hi Charles I wrote a couple of articles for the 2MM Magazine a couple of years ago describing how to make jigs for filing crossings and switches using hinges. Although these were for 2mm scale they could be adapted perfectly well for 4mm scale but probably pushing things a bit for 7mm scale. The jigs use a hinge to hold the rail on edge and there are brass angle plates to set the correct angles for filing. There is another jig, also made from a hinge for drilling the angle plates so that they provide the correct angles. Held horizontally on your Proxxon table or in the machine vice these should work fine. There is a third jig for filing undercut switches, but I don’t think this could be adapted for milling very easily. Nobody seems to have given you any actual advice on the topic you asked about although there has been a fair amount of “mine is bigger than yours”. The Proxxon miller has a very good reputation for the light work for which it is designed and I know several 2mm modellers who own them and speak very highly of them. When milling something a delicate as this you have to be very carefully how you arrange the cut since it is difficult to provide much support near to the nose of a crossing rail. You should arrange to hold the rail upright and use the side of a cutter, not the end. Always feed towards the toe with the cutter rotating so that it cuts towards the toe. I can let you have copies of the articles if you let me have your email address. Regards Geoff |
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posted: 6 Dec 2007 20:51 from: Martin Wynne
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GeoffJones wrote: Nobody seems to have given you any actual advice on the topic you asked about although there has been a fair amount of “mine is bigger than yours”.Hi Geoff, That was just a bit of fun sparked off by Brian Lewis (as usual). The problem with Charles' request is that it can't be answered in a few paragraphs on a forum. It's like asking for a beginner's guide to brain surgery -- it needs a full article with diagrams and drawings. If you are new to milling Charles I do wonder if making vees is the best place to start. I would never mill them myself anyway, and as Adrian has suggested filing will be a lot quicker. The best tool for making vees in the smaller scales is a faceplate sander with suitable angled guides. There is lots of advice about milling on the model engineering sites. Why not start with say a loco gearbox or some fluted coupling rods? regards, Martin. |
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posted: 6 Dec 2007 23:53 from: Paul Boyd
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Martin wrote:That was just a bit of fun sparked off by Brian Lewis (as usual).Wot? Brian up to mischief? Never!! I've actually been following this thread with interest because I've been doing some very light milling (1.3mm slot cutter) with the Proxxon TBM-220 pillar drill and the KT-70 coordinate table (loco gearboxes, oddly enough!). But today, I took delivery of a vertical slide for my Unimat 4, so I'm getting a better idea of what I might be able to do with it. |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 01:52 from: Brian McK click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Just dug out my fixture for milling vees for a hasty photo. Hope it is self explanatory as I won't be about for a day or two to answer questions. A small diameter (and easily sharpened) fly-cutter is passed through the notch in the vertically standing fixture with rails clamped at both sides. Left hand and right hand crossing vees are accommodated by grooves in both ends of the fixture. Only one crossing angle is provided per jig. O.T. That's one very tidy Bridgeport in the photo along with a youthful Martin. Did he fit up the stepper or servo drives on those aluminium plates? Is the motor at top for the drawbar? -Brian McKenzie |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 02:35 from: Brian McK click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
This shows the other end of the fixture for milling crossing vee splice rail. -Brian McKenzie |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 03:05 from: Brian Tulley
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Martin Wynne wrote: If you are new to milling Charles I do wonder if making vees is the best place to start. I would never mill them myself anyway, and as Adrian has suggested filing will be a lot quicker. The best tool for making vees in the smaller scales is a faceplate sander with suitable angled guides.How about investing in some Crossing V Filing Jigs from the EMGS? One Jig does 1:5, 1:6, 1:7 and 1:8 (£18-50) The other does 1:9, 1:10, 1:11 and 1:12 (£29-00) They also do a Switchblade Planing Jig (£25-00). There's also a Common Crossing assembly jig (completed assembly)(£10-00) or a brass fret only for constructing the jig yourself (£3-50). I've seen all in action at the EMGS Exhibition and the task doesn't get any easier. Unless you send a cheque to Brian Lewis and buy them ready made of course.... But that's cheating... Brian Tulley. |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 04:29 from: Stuart Mitchell
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HI.. Wouldn't you be better off buying a Fast-Track filing block as it's all done for you. http://www.handlaidtrack.com/category.php?id=1259&link_str=129::1258::1259 Stuart in OZ |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 05:46 from: Brian Lewis
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Jim Guthrie wrote: Not in person, I hope, since that would mean that there are two of Brian - since someone closely resembling him extracted money from my wallet at Reading on Saturday.Yes - and I apologize again for the shock I gave to you Jim. As I said, since you last opened your wallet, decimalisation has taken place and you will have to take what was in your purse to a bank for conversion into today's currency...... Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 06:59 from: Templot User
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----- from Andy Reichert ----- Stuart Mitchell wrote: Wouldn't you be better off buying a Fast-Track filing block as it's all done for you.$50.00 per each angle? Wow!!! I wonder why they can't put a few of the common angles on one piece of aluminium? Seems kinda obvious and more helpful. Andy |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 07:19 from: Martin Wynne
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Stuart Mitchell wrote: Wouldn't you be better off buying a Fast-Track filing block as it's all done for you.Hi Stuart, Andy, Looking at this picture: http://www.electronics-supply.com/admin/images/x-pointform-m-8-l.jpg as far as I can see the rail end is not bent before filing, with the result that the tip of the vee is formed from the projecting rail head only and is not supported by any solid metal from the web? A properly made point or splice rail is first bent to the crossing angle at the tip and then filed or machined or ground on both sides to produce a solid end to the angle. I'm a bit shocked that anyone would pay so much money for such an unsatisfactory result. Unless I'm mis-reading the web site?regards, Martin. |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 10:20 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Charles, Here is a diagram showing what you are trying to do: vee_tips.png  I have greatly exaggerated the crossing angle for clarity. The rails are shown in cross-section along the rail -- yellow shows the rail head, red shows the web of the rail. A is a prepared piece of rail with the end bent to the crossing angle. Two cuts are made as shown, producing the result at B with solid metal at the tip at x. It is possible to leave making the second cuts until after the vee is assembled, producing a neater result, but it is difficult to hold the assembled vee for that if you intend to machine them on the mill. The splice rail C is as B, and the point rail D is the same again but of the opposite hand. It is notched down to the web to make a soldered joint at s. In view of the solder fill and jig assembly, a filed notch is good enough, although you can of course machine a proper prototypical spliced recess if you wish. The final tasks are to blunt off the nose as shown, to a scale width of 3/4" (bullhead) or 5/8" (flat-bottom), and to re-instate the rail-head corner radius on the machined areas. A few strokes with a fine file and a final polish with abrasive paper will do that. It's also a good idea to take a few thou off the top of the vee nose so that it dips down slightly below the wing rails. This allows for the coning angle on the wheels as they run off the wing rail onto the nose, producing smoother running. As you can see from Brian McKenzie's excellent pictures, making the jigs to hold the rail for these milling operations is not a 2-minute task, and you need to do it for each of the crossing angles you intend to use. I'm wondering if your mill is large enough for this work, even if only in aluminium alloy rather than steel? Brian is using a fly-cutter to mill the rails, which is fast, easily sharpened and produces an excellent surface finish. But it does require a robust mill for the intermittent cut, and very securely clamped rails. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 13:01 from: Charles Orr
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Martin, Geoff, Brian and everyone else who has replied, thank you very much for the information that you have provided. I've got a much better idea now of what I will have to do. Martin, I like your suggestion of using a faceplate sander. I will investigate that further. Best regards Charles |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 16:17 from: Sonnie Raee click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi, Just thought that I could get 2d worth in. I use a wooden jig to hold the rail at the correct angle ( a bit of 2x1 with a slot cut in it) then use a linisher ( vertical belt sander) to shape the rail to what ever angle you require. Sonnie on the sunny Wirral |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 18:47 from: Martin Wynne
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Sonnie Raee wrote: Just thought that I could get 2d worth in. I use a wooden jig to hold the rail at the correct angle ( a bit of 2x1 with a slot cut in it) then use a linisher ( vertical belt sander) to shape the rail to what ever angle you require.Hi Sonnie, Worth a lot more than 2d. Great minds think alike! This is essentially what I'm suggesting to Charles. The mill can be used to make some hardwood jigs for use on a sander. A faceplate disc sander can be improvised on a small lathe* if you protect the bed and working parts with masking tape and oiled newspaper (the oil makes the sandings stick to it instead of vibrating off). The advantages of sanding over milling are that the cutting forces are very much reduced so that a wooden jig is fine and the work can be held and fed to the disc by hand if necessary. It's much faster than milling and in addition there are no cutters to sharpen -- just peel off the worn abrasive paper and stick on a new piece with double-stick tape. "Wet-or-dry" abrasive paper is available from car bodywork places. *Remove the lathe toolpost and make a work table with a feed guide at exactly 90 degrees to the faceplate. Make an accurate square-cornered block to slide against this, and fit the rail holder jigs on top of it. For best results make two sanding plates for the faceplate, one with coarse paper for fast roughing, one with fine paper for a final polished finish. Such a setup will be found very useful for a lot of other modelling tasks. Wear eye protection, may contain nuts, if all else fails read the instructions. If you adopt this method you can do most of the work after assembling the vee, which reduces the number of operations needed and cleans up your soldering (use high-temperature solder). I will post some more diagrams later to explain. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 19:28 from: Brian Lewis
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Just a couple of thoughts. Brian M's jig is brilliant and logical. But it is capable of simplification. All modellers know that the art of accurate cutting, shaping, etc. is the ability to hold the work properly. So you could utilise Brian's slot method, which basically is the same as the Portsdown jig, and the securing effect comes from clamping the jig and rail combination in a vice so that the side of the jig is parallel to the top of the jaws. You can then mill off the protruding stub. Also, I would have thought that end mills might be a better alternative than fly cutters. But whatever you use, it has to be sharp. Round here the farmers say, "The sweetest hay is easiest made", meaning if the weather is dry with light winds, the hay will be good and the animals will eat it readily. But if it is wet and has to be turned repeatedly before it will dry, it will probably turn out to be fusty. And so it is with end mills. A sharp cutter produces a rail which needs very little cleaning up. You can tell when they begin to blunt, as the rail grows 'whiskers'. Although I do have a indexed sharpening arrangement on my milling machine, I buy disposable end mills - quicker and better in my opinion. I buy these in lots of 60 from J & L Industrial Supply - http://www.jlindustrial.co.uk Tony Reynaulds put me on to these years ago. They are good people to deal with. Their 1400 page catalogue is an essential tool in my workroom. Regards Brian Lewis Carrs -- C+L Finescale. http://www.finescale.org.uk |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 21:30 from: Charles Orr
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Martin Wynne wrote: I will post some more diagrams later to explain.I'm now beginning to think that this might be the best road to follow. I do have a faceplate sander, essentially it's a belt and disk sander purchased from Axminster Tools some time ago. I will await your further explanations Martin. Thank you in anticipation Best regards Charles |
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posted: 7 Dec 2007 23:09 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Charles, Some further diagrams, showing how most of the work can be done after assembly of the vee. This requires only 3 cuts instead of 4 in total previously, and cleans up any slight mismatch at the tip and any stray solder. It's difficult to hold an assembled vee this way for milling, but fairly easily arranged on a sander. As before the rail is shown in horizontal cross-section, yellow is the rail head and orange is the web of the rail: vee_assy.png  A is the point rail, simply bent at the end at the crossing angle, or slightly less. Allow a little extra on the overall length. B is the splice rail, as A but cut back as shown. C, D, E are then assembled in a suitable jig. Assembled point rail D is as A but of the opposite hand, notched with a file to receive C. Assembled splice rail C is as B, soldered into the notch in D. Use high-temperature solder because the rail gets hot while sanding. If necessary stop and dip it in a jar of cold water. Using high-temp solder also reduces the risk of it coming apart later if you are using soldered track construction. E is a scrap of rail or metal strip temporarily soldered across the vee rail ends to improve stability while sanding. It can be left in place until you are actually building the track, and then the surplus vee rail ends are trimmed back as required. V is the result after making two cuts on the sander as shown. The bulk of the metal can be quickly removed with a coarse file or metal shears before finishing on the sander. The end result is an accurately aligned vee comprised of solid rail at the nose. All that then remains is to fettle the tip and blunt back the nose, as noted previously. Hope this helps. regards, Martin. |
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