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page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Trackbuilding topics > 3D Printed Track and Turnouts
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             Rating                           3D Printed Track and Turnouts
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81st message | this message only posted: 18 Jan 2016 07:42
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Barrowman wrote:If you can include the single block marker that is oriented correctly at each rail gauge-line/timber center-line intersection, that will still be a huge step forward.Hi Andy,

Yes, I know, it sounds simple when put like that. :)

The fly in the ointment is that that isn't always the correct place for the chair. :(

Because the chair outlines are not symmetrical about the gauge-face, putting a skewed chair on the intersection doesn't centralize the chair within the width of the timber. And different chairs have different amounts of non-symmetry. A "P" slide-chair is close to being symmetrical, but a "L1" bridge chair is a long way off.

With square-on timbering only half the chairs are skewed, but some of them significantly. With equalized timbering, the skewing is less but some skewing applies to nearly all of the chairs.

To illustrate that, here I have intentionally exaggerated the lack of symmetry. You can see that the gauge-face intersection with the centre-line of the chair does not coincide with the centre-line of the timber:



I know it is only a small difference, but the human brain being what is, even a small offset from being central within the timber width is very noticeable. And in most prototype cases, wrong.

However, as you can see, I think I have got it working.

regards,

Martin.

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82nd message | this message only posted: 20 Jan 2016 23:42
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Andy,

Another progress report.





A few notes about this.

Initially this is going to be restricted to the REA bullhead designs for switches A to D, with hard-wired chairing data. Partly because I have the full chair designs for those, but mainly because a complete customized chairing implementation is going to be a massive task and other things are more important first.

I still have a lot to do -- the L1 bridge chairs, check rail chairs, crossing chairs.

The P slide chairs are always aligned to the stock rail, whereas the 1PL, 1PR, etc., block chairs are always square-on to the main road. The first two of those are shorter, because they have no inner jaw. The remaining block chairs have a full inner key jaw.

As you can see, chairs remain aligned to the rails when the along and twist functions are applied to the timbers, or both applied together. The crab function won't be supported at this stage, the chairs don't move if a timber is crabbed sideways. Nor obviously if a timber is thrown, or the length or width of the timber changed.

Also at this stage, the return curve part of a parallel-type V-crossing will not be chaired.

But it's looking hopeful. :)

The plain rectangular chairs don't look very impressive alongside the detailed PDF templates from Exactoscale. But of course in Templot the templates are fully adjustable for crossing angle, curvable to any radius, and can be swapped between square-on and equalized timbering styles as required.

regards,

Martin.

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83rd message | this message only posted: 21 Jan 2016 00:51
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Andrew Barrowman
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Hi Martin,

"Oh what a tangled web...." etc.

Do not be fooled by any sense that I might be able to detect the difference between a 1PL and a 1PR, or any other chair for that matter. Wot I do is "plonk 'em down" where they seem to fit :)

Perhaps, more importantly, I'm just a wee bit alarmed that so few (possibly not any) modellers have jumped on the 3D bandwagon. I think I offered to make my models available to anyone who wants to give it a shot, but so far the reaction has been, to put it mildly, just a bit underwhelming - OK, it was non-existent.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. There is no end of weeping, a not unexpected amount of wailing, and a commensurate amount of gnashing of teeth (not to mention rending of garments) on a site that we know regarding the cost/difficulty of making decent looking turnouts for a reasonable price.

The best thing of all is that 3D printing lets a modeller use any old scale/gauge/standard they care to choose (just like Templot). A cynic might suggest that some are looking for an excuse rather than a solution :)

Anyway, if you don't mind plodding on, so will I, just as long as we realize that we might be shoving the proverbial boiled egg up a gum tree, while maintaining a sense of humor (always a good thing I think).

Cheers!
Andy



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84th message | this message only posted: 21 Jan 2016 01:42
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Barrowman wrote:I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. There is no end of weeping, a not unexpected amount of wailing, and a commensurate amount of gnashing of teeth (not to mention rending of garments) on a site that we know regarding the cost/difficulty of making decent looking turnouts for a reasonable price.

The best thing of all is that 3D printing lets a modeller use any old scale/gauge/standard they care to choose (just like Templot). A cynic might suggest that some are looking for an excuse rather than a solution :)
Hi Andy,

What puzzled me -- well no actually it didn't -- is that so many of those asking for more prototypical track then complained when actual details of prototype track were posted.

For the first few years of Templot's life there were very few users modelling in 00 gauge. That's how 00-SF went unnoticed in the gauge list for so many years. :)  The majority of users were modelling in EM and P4, and that is still where most of the 4mm interest in trackwork lies. For example see this current topic on the Scalefour web site:

 http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4629

I think if we can get to a situation where users can create a track plan in Templot, and then get the whole thing 3D printed with full chairing (one section at a time, of course), there is going to be a lot of interest from track builders. With full chairs there is the problem of threading the bent rails, but I'm still hopeful of finding a solution where those rails can be dropped in prototypically. Followed by inserting a miniature key on a break-off slug, or maybe by heat-sealing the open jaw down over the rail with a suitable shaped bit on the soldering iron.

As soon as I have got a DXF out of this, and you have proved block substitution in CAD and successful printing, I'm going to be getting one of these printers myself and experimenting. At present the chairs are a bit primitive compared with the injection-moulded ones created by Len Newman, but everything has to start somewhere. I can still remember gluing unidentifiable bits of white metal over rivets.

regards,

Martin.

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85th message | this message only posted: 21 Jan 2016 03:24
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Andrew Barrowman
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As soon as I have got a DXF out of this, and you have proved block substitution in CAD and successful printing, I'm going to be getting one of these printers myself and experimenting. At present the chairs are a bit primitive compared with the injection-moulded ones created by Len Newman, but everything has to start somewhere.
Hi Martin,

3D printed chairs that use an additive process are never going to be quite as good as injection-moulded chairs, but I defy anyone to tell the difference from a distance of a couple of feet. Also, if the printing process is set up properly a turnout can be assembled without any gauges and adjustments.

I understand you are building in 7mm. That should be an even better application of 3D printing.

Let me know before you spring for a printer. I might have some suggestions, and I can definitely help you get your printer set up properly. It's not rocket science, but there are some interesting details. But be warned - watching it print you next turnout can become slightly addictive.

Cheers!
Andy



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86th message | this message only posted: 21 Jan 2016 05:31
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote:whereas the 1PL, 1PR, etc., block chairs are always square-on to the main road.Well that has always been my understanding, and all the switch drawings I have show this. Including the Exactoscale templates.

Unfortunately it cannot be. There is only one pair of L and R block chairs in each size, which are used for both left-hand and right-hand switches. The chair drawings clearly show the outer jaw for the stock rail square to the rail, with the inner jaw angled to match the switch rail (blade):



I have therefore now modified the code for this:



Unless and until anyone can shed more light on this? :?

regards,

Martin.

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87th message | this message only posted: 21 Jan 2016 18:20
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Andrew Barrowman
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Hi Martin,

Can you point me at a list of the various chair types? The information I have is all from the 1930's.

Regards,
Andy
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88th message | this message only posted: 21 Jan 2016 18:41
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Martin Wynne
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Andrew Barrowman wrote:Can you point me at a list of the various chair types? The information I have is all from the 1930's.Hi Andy,

See: http://www.scalefour.org/downloads/gwrtracknotes/R4290A.pdf

That is Paddington's 1959 re-drawing of the Standard Railway Equipment (REA) chair designs and contains a few differences in the dimensioning compared with the original SRC designs. Not enough to make a a difference in a model. The GWR and BR(W) always had to be different. :)

AS1 is an ordinary chair. AS1J is a joint chair used on 12" wide sleepers adjacent to rail joints.

I can't find an online source of the original 1923 designs. They are in the NERA reprint book of the LNER 1926 SRC Permanent Way drawings.

regards,

Martin.

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89th message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2016 04:45
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Martin Wynne wrote: Andrew Barrowman wrote:Can you point me at a list of the various chair types? The information I have is all from the 1930's.Hi Andy,

See: http://www.scalefour.org/downloads/gwrtracknotes/R4290A.pdf

That is Paddington's 1959 re-drawing of the Standard Railway Equipment (REA) chair designs and contains a few differences in the dimensioning compared with the original SRC designs. Not enough to make a a difference in a model. The GWR and BR(W) always had to be different. :)

AS1 is an ordinary chair. AS1J is a joint chair used on 12" wide sleepers adjacent to rail joints.

I can't find an online source of the original 1923 designs. They are in the NERA reprint book of the LNER 1926 SRC Permanent Way drawings.

regards,

Martin.
Thanks for that Martin.

Do you have access to the Permanent Way Institute's Handbook? It seems to have some relevant information, but I've only skimmed over it.

Regards,
Andy

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90th message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2016 04:51
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Barrowman wrote:Do you have access to the Permanent Way Institute's Handbook? It seems to have some relevant information, but I've only skimmed over it.Hi Andy,

Yes, a couple of editions.

What information do you want?

regards,

Martin.

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91st message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2016 05:28
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Andrew Barrowman
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Sorry for the confusion (again) Martin :)

I thought you might find it helpful if you didn't already have it.
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92nd message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2016 21:32
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Andrew Barrowman
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For anyone who interested in dabbling in 3D, TurboCAD deluxe V20 is on sale at the moment from Cad and Graphics in the US for $49.99 (35 GBP?)

Obviously a bit more expensive than any of the free CAD programs out there, but it does work very well, and I'll be happy to help anyone who wants to give it a shot.

(I'm not connected in any way with either of these companies.)
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93rd message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2016 23:03
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Andrew Barrowman wrote: For anyone who interested in dabbling in 3D, TurboCAD deluxe V20 is on sale at the moment from Cad and Graphics in the US for $49.99 (35 GBP?)

Obviously a bit more expensive than any of the free CAD programs out there, but it does work very well, and I'll be happy to help anyone who wants to give it a shot.

(I'm not connected in any way with either of these companies.)
Hi Andrew

TurboCAD deluxe V20 is currently on offer from Amazon UK at £9.75. Looks a good buy.

I have TurboCAD designer V20 which is 2D only, like it. I use it for drawing up artwork for etching. I find TurboCAD thinks the way I think, more than some other alternatives I've looked at.

Cheers
Nigel

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Hi Nigel,

Wow! I think that's a really good price. I have TC V21 and it handles 3D quite well enough for what I'm doing. I don't think there is much difference between V20 and V21.

Of course they are really trying to get you started so they can sell you an upgrade to a later version, but that's just business.

Cheers!
Andy
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95th message | this message only posted: 23 Jan 2016 01:18
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Nigel Brown
 

 

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Andy

Any idea if it's possible to use say Designer V20 and Deluxe V20 on the same machine? I ask because I tried a much earlier version of TC which had both 2D and 3D, and it was a pain to use in 2D, so for 2D work Designer suits me fine as it's 2D only, but I've ambitions in the 3D printing area for which a 3D capability would be useful.

Or to put it differently, can you run Deluxe in such a way that the 3D side isn't evident?

Cheers
Nigel
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96th message | this message only posted: 23 Jan 2016 01:36
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Hi Nigel,

Yes, you can run TC deluxe entirely in 2D if you want to. You can toggle a model between 2D and 3D. In 2D mode the Z axis is suppressed.

Andy
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Martin Wynne wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:whereas the 1PL, 1PR, etc., block chairs are always square-on to the main road.Well that has always been my understanding, and all the switch drawings I have show this. Including the Exactoscale templates.

Unfortunately it cannot be. There is only one pair of L and R block chairs in each size, which are used for both left-hand and right-hand switches. The chair drawings clearly show the outer jaw for the stock rail square to the rail, with the inner jaw angled to match the switch rail (blade):



I have therefore now modified the code for this:



Unless and until anyone can shed more light on this? :?

regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin,

I was looking at the PWI handbook, and the illustration of the B switch (Fig 21) shows the P chairs perpendicular to the stock rails (as expected) while the block chairs appear to be square-on.

Just to make it more confusing the text on page 48 says of the block chairs "these chairs are handed, depending on the hand of the switch they support", which does not seem to agree with the notations on Fig 21.

I think there must have been two varieties of L and R block chairs, one for each hand of turnout, but I could be entirely wrong.

Andy

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Martin Wynne
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Andrew Barrowman wrote:I think there must have been two varieties of L and R block chairs, one for each hand of turnout, but I could be entirely wrong.Hi Andy,

I can't find any evidence for that in any chair drawings or the chair type-designations. See the drawings on this page and the notes at the bottom:

 http://www.scalefour.org/downloads/gwrtracknotes/R1738.pdf

(my copy of this has "Amended 1957 ... Jun. 1961") at the bottom right).

The note makes clear that the L and R in the designation refer to each half side of a single switch. There is no reference to the hand of the entire switch. Indeed there is no need for any different chairs by the simple expedient of skewing the chair on the timber. This is obviously acceptable practice (despite the slight loss of gauge-spread resistance) because it is done for the P slide chairs.

That page is for GWR and BR(W), but given the use of the same designations and the BR revision dates it seems likely that the BR REA designs are similar.

But here is a drawing of an REA left-hand A-switch:



Which shows the P slide chairs skewed, and the block chairs square-on to the timber (with no designations on the chairs that they are for a left-hand switch only). :?

I can only assume this was an error on the original drawing, and that all subsequent drawings have copied the same original.

Note also in that drawing the wider S1J joint chairs on the first timber.

This photo shows on the right an REA block chair on a right-hand switch. I wouldn't want to swear in a court of law that it is skewed to the timber, but it certainly looks that way:



This location is easily accessible, so I will go and have a closer look.

On the left a bolted half-chair is used to allow space for chairing the long check rail behind it (the actual reason for taking the photo :) ).

Here is a wider view. L1 bridge chairs on the left (on all 3 rails):



regards,

Martin.

(I will copy this into the prototype pics section).


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Hi Andy,

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I have decided not to proceed with this chairing project at this stage. It is turning into a minefield -- as I always knew it would do, which is why I have shied away from it for all these years.

I have already spent many hours on it, and I can see that it will need many, many more hours before it is anywhere near fit to be released. Even then, for every template correctly chaired, there will be dozens loaded from existing plans showing chairs in the wrong place or the wrong size. Just to get that far it needs a massive new dialog to allow users to specify prototype chair dimensions and locations, and a new data structure in the box file to contain the information.

For example, I have spent 2 days -- so far without sufficient success for customized templates -- trying to create an algorithm to put the CCL and CCR chairs on the ends of the check rails. Bearing in mind that the timbers under them can be shoved, and equalized or square-on, and that the check rail lengths, flare lengths, and flare angles are all infinitely adjustable. Not to mention that even P4 has an oversize flangeway, so the prototype chair sizes don't fit. In 00 and EM and other scales, the oversize flangeways and end gaps make a mockery of the prototype chair sizes and flare angles.

The only practicable solution is to allow the user to specify which chair goes where, and to customize the dimensions of it, which requires a massively complex dialog and and an even bigger Help file. For partial templates in a tandem or slip for example, the complexity of the task falls off the scale -- no user is ever going to bother attempting it on-screen.

When all that is needed during construction is to download one of the excellent Exactoscale templates, and use it as a reference for the typical chair types and positions.

I think it is far better that Templot shows no chairing information, rather than wrong information.

I'm still keen to develop the software for all this, and try it on a 3D printer. But purely for our own use, not as part of Templot. Otherwise the support load for users will grow far beyond what I can reasonably manage. And not yet, otherwise the next Templot update will never be ready. It already contains several new but as yet unfinished functions, so I need to spend time on those first.

I have obtained the £9.75 offer of TurboCAD Deluxe V20 -- thanks Nigel.

But so far I'm disappointed with it. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't offer much beyond my 10-year-old-plus copy of TurboCad Pro, and many of the dialogs are identical. In particular, metafile support is still restricted to the ancient WMF format. I was hoping for EMF export, indeed that was my main reason for deciding to get it. The plug-in for PDF export (from which I could extract EMF files) is only included as a 15-day trial. It was probably silly of me to expect much more for the price.

regards,

Martin.

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100th message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2016 20:18
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Hi Martin,

A wise plan indeed! Many thanks for giving it a shot.

I sort of wondered how you were going to handle all the details. My original take on it was just to provide a dummy chair at the intersections and leave the user to do the substitution and any fine-tuning in CAD, but when you get right down to it, that's not going to save much time compared with what I do now. The only thing it might avoid is having to rotate the jaws into alignment with the rail, but that's not a very big deal.

Meanwhile, I've been playing with a slightly different approach.

One way to do it is to create models of all the various chairs for all the various (and many) possible crossing angles. That's a lot of work!

The method I'm playing with now is to create models of the chairs that don't have the jaws separated to accommodate the rail. There is just a sold chunk of virtual cast-iron there instead.

The idea then is to plonk these solid chairs in their desired positions on the 2D template and then "machine" the apertures by subtracting a sort of 3D rail (with tread clearances etc.) to create the jaws aligned with the rails.

I'm hoping this method will greatly reduce the inventory of chair types that have to be created, but I won't know if it really saves time until I try it on a few different turnouts. Obviously, the 3D subtraction would have to be done in CAD.

Thanks and regards,
Andy
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Martin

My more limited version of TurboCad 20 allows you to write PDF files, if that's what you want. I get my etching done by PPD, and send them both a DWG file and a PDF, so they have a double check on the output.

Not sure about metafiles, never used them in TurboCad; I use DWG exclusively. It will do CGM as well WMF.

Cheers
Nigel

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I don't know much about metafiles either, but I never met a file I didn't like.

(Sorry Nigel - it's a really old joke.)
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Hi Martin,

A question: (I suspect the answer is no.)

If I make a 3D model of a straight turnout that consists of sub-models where the sub-models are timbers combined with their chairs into a single block or group, can I then convert it into a curved turnout by re-positioning the timber/chair blocks on to a curved version of the turnout?

In other words, will I be able to re-use any of the timber/chair blocks without changing the position and/or alignment of the chairs on the timbers?

Regards,
Andy
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Barrowman wrote: A question: (I suspect the answer is no.)

If I make a 3D model of a straight turnout that consists of sub-models where the sub-models are timbers combined with their chairs into a single block or group, can I then convert it into a curved turnout by re-positioning the timber/chair blocks on to a curved version of the turnout?

In other words, will I be able to re-use any of the timber/chair blocks without changing the position and/or alignment of the chairs on the timbers?
Hi Andy,

The answer is yes. :)

regards,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne
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Nigel Brown wrote: My more limited version of TurboCad 20 allows you to write PDF files, if that's what you want.Sorry Nigel,

Yes I now see that I can do that.

So what was all that stuff about limited trials for the PDF plug-in, which appeared during the installation?

I don't really want PDF output, what I'm looking for is EMF metafiles. However I've tried some experiments with WMF output, which I can load ok onto the sketchboard. But I could do that with my old TurboCad, so I haven't gained anything in that regard.

regards,

Martin.

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Andrew Barrowman
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Hi Martin,

That's really good news. It might be a great time-saver. I'll give it a shot.

Thanks!
Andy
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Andrew Barrowman
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Hi Martin,

Are you any further on with acquiring a printer? I'm hoping to see some turnouts in 7mm.

Andy
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Martin Wynne
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Andrew Barrowman wrote:Are you any further on with acquiring a printer? I'm hoping to see some turnouts in 7mm.You don't know me very well if you think I move that fast. The next job on my list is to decorate the Christmas tree.

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: Andrew Barrowman wrote:Are you any further on with acquiring a printer? I'm hoping to see some turnouts in 7mm.You don't know me very well if you think I move that fast. The next job on my list is to decorate the Christmas tree.

Martin.
Gosh! You are really slow. I put our lights up on December 23rd. They are still up, and turned on. It's just one tree at the end of our driveway.

It's a bit of a protest really. In these parts, everyone has them up by Thanksgiving (last Thursday in November) then they rip them down on Boxing Day - evidently the day you are supposed to put your Christmas decorations back in their boxes - not that anyone here ever heard of Boxing Day :roll:

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Andrew Barrowman
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Martin Wynne wrote: Andrew Barrowman wrote: A question: (I suspect the answer is no.)

If I make a 3D model of a straight turnout that consists of sub-models where the sub-models are timbers combined with their chairs into a single block or group, can I then convert it into a curved turnout by re-positioning the timber/chair blocks on to a curved version of the turnout?

In other words, will I be able to re-use any of the timber/chair blocks without changing the position and/or alignment of the chairs on the timbers?
Hi Andy,

The answer is yes. :)

regards,

Martin.

Hi Martin,

I hope this isn't beginning to sound a bit like Twenty Questions :)

Am I correct in thinking that the timbers in a turnout are spaced along the center-line of the main road and that the spacings do not change as the turnout is curved? Looking at what Templot does that seems to be the case, but maybe I'm missing something.

If that is the case, I think I ought to be able to print a straight turnout base with a single flexible web that runs along the main road center-line attached to all the timbers. That might allow me to print a common base that could be used for different turnout curvatures.

Hope I'm making myself clear - I've got a bit of a head cold at the moment and I might sound a bit funny.

Cheers!
Andy



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Martin Wynne
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Andrew Barrowman wrote:Am I correct in thinking that the timbers in a turnout are spaced along the center-line of the main road and that the spacings do not change as the turnout is curved? Looking at what Templot does that seems to be the case, but maybe I'm missing something.Hi Andy,

That's correct, curving takes place along the main-road centre-line.

(In the current release versions of Templot.)

It's not strictly correct prototypically, where in theory at least curving should take place along the main-road crossing rail, so that the lead length along that rail from switch toe to crossing nose remains constant. That option was possible in early versions of Templot and is still enabled in my development versions here -- the offset to the curving line can be set to any desired dimension. See on the program panel window at program > expert > curving method > for example.

It also means that for plain track, curving can be set along the outer rail, so that the 60ft (or whatever) rail length is maintained between the joint marks, and the special prototype 59ft-9in "short rails" can be inserted as needed on the inner rail to prevent the joint stagger exceeding the specified maximum (+/- 1.1/2in).

I disabled all that in the later release versions of Templot because it seemed to be one degree of complexity too far, and it is not supported in most of the functions on the tools menu. It was really intended only for the creation and printing of individual construction templates. For model purposes at typical curving radii the difference is not sufficient to worry about, and centre-line curving makes everything else so much more convenient for layout planning.

Set against that, early versions of Templot had the edges of the timbers running radial after curving, producing a detectable tapered result on the longer timbers. It was of no practical consequence for construction templates, but it would have spoiled your 3D printing. :)

I subsequently changed it to keep the timbers properly rectangular on curved templates.

If that is the case, I think I ought to be able to print a straight turnout base with a single flexible web that runs along the main road center-line attached to all the timbers. That might allow me to print a common base that could be used for different turnout curvatures. I'm not convinced that flexing in steps between each timber will produce the same result as continuous curving along the centre-line. You may find that you need to offset the web from the centre-line by a fraction in order to get a good match.

I hope your cold clears up soon and you are feeling better.

regards,

Martin.

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Andrew Barrowman
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Hi Martin,

Thank you for the in-depth reply.

I understand your point about the offset. The web would not precisely follow the center-line arc (unless I do something rather fancy :) )

It occurs to me that I could also just print all the timbers complete with chairs all "bunched up" on the printer, then simply stick them on to a Templot template.

I could cram a couple of turnouts on to the printer that way and take the dogs for a long walk while they were printing.

Cheers!
Andy
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Jim Guthrie
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Andy,

Just one thing to consider in your development - the ability to push rails through the chairs when constructing the turnouts.  I have current experience with building interlaced turnouts in G1 using Cliff Barker's combined sleeper/chair units - similar to what you are designing - and I've found it difficult to thread rail through a lot of chairs before the resistance requires a lot of force.   Cliff Barker's chairs have a good grip on the rail and individual chairs will slide quite easily along the rail,  but I find that once I get up pushing the rail through ten chairs,  then it gets very difficult and I think some sort of damage might occur if I tried to go much further.   I've yet to try using something like wireman's lubricant to see if I can improve matters.  However,  in the turnouts I have constructed so far I can manage with two sections of rail in the longest rails - the stock rails - with the joints close to where the joints between stock and switch rails would be.  However,  I might run into problems if I was modelling a much longer turnout type using "C" and upwards switches,  my current turnouts all using "B" switches up to 1:8.

Jim.

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andy , with that cold, I suggest you type slower and I find writing Achoo, a few times clears the nose.
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Andrew Barrowman
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Jim Guthrie wrote: Andy,

Just one thing to consider in your development - the ability to push rails through the chairs when constructing the turnouts.  I have current experience with building interlaced turnouts in G1 using Cliff Barker's combined sleeper/chair units - similar to what you are designing - and I've found it difficult to thread rail through a lot of chairs before the resistance requires a lot of force.   Cliff Barker's chairs have a good grip on the rail and individual chairs will slide quite easily along the rail,  but I find that once I get up pushing the rail through ten chairs,  then it gets very difficult and I think some sort of damage might occur if I tried to go much further.   I've yet to try using something like wireman's lubricant to see if I can improve matters.  However,  in the turnouts I have constructed so far I can manage with two sections of rail in the longest rails - the stock rails - with the joints close to where the joints between stock and switch rails would be.  However,  I might run into problems if I was modelling a much longer turnout type using "C" and upwards switches,  my current turnouts all using "B" switches up to 1:8.

Jim.
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the information.

It probably depends to some extent on what the chairs are made from. Harder materials, metals for instance, don't need to exert any pressure on the rail to hold it in the correct position whereas softer materials do need to exert some pressure.

So far, all my prints have been made using PLA (polylactic acid) which turns out to be quite hard. I do experience some resistance when pulling the rails through the chairs, but so far it has not been a major issue even on some fairly long turnouts.

Regards,
Andy

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David R
Hatfield Heath, United Kingdom



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Jim Guthrie wrote: Just one thing to consider in your development - the ability to push rails through the chairs when constructing the turnouts.  I have current experience with building interlaced turnouts in G1 using Cliff Barker's combined sleeper/chair units - similar to what you are designing - and I've found it difficult to thread rail through a lot of chairs before the resistance requires a lot of force.




If you print the keys separately then the rail will just drop into the chair jaws from above.  Insert the tapered keys (narrow end first!) and then break/cut off the sprue.  

Warning: if used outside then glue the keys in place otherwise the birds will think that the keys are seeds and eat them!

Photo shows 7mm scale GER chairs; sorry about the depth of field.

Regards Dave R
Off The Rails Shop

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Andrew Barrowman
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David R wrote: Jim Guthrie wrote: Just one thing to consider in your development - the ability to push rails through the chairs when constructing the turnouts.  I have current experience with building interlaced turnouts in G1 using Cliff Barker's combined sleeper/chair units - similar to what you are designing - and I've found it difficult to thread rail through a lot of chairs before the resistance requires a lot of force.




If you print the keys separately then the rail will just drop into the chair jaws from above.  Insert the tapered keys (narrow end first!) and then break/cut off the sprue.  

Warning: if used outside then glue the keys in place otherwise the birds will think that the keys are seeds and eat them!

Photo shows 7mm scale GER chairs; sorry about the depth of field.

Regards Dave R
Off The Rails Shop

Hi David,

I tried using separate keys in my 3D printed 00 turnouts, but the chairs are not robust enough to resist the wedging action. It also creates some gauging issues.

It might work if I was using a different material, or a different printing process.

Regards,
Andy

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I've encountered a situation where the X chair isn't fully supported on its timber. When this happens on the prototype, is the timber shoved to fully support the chair?

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Martin Wynne
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Andrew Barrowman wrote: I've encountered a situation where the X chair isn't fully supported on its timber. When this happens on the prototype, is the timber shoved to fully support the chair?Hi Andy,

Where did you get the dimensions to the chair centre and the timber centre? Normally they would be the same.

But where the model flangeway is overscale, this affects the position of the knuckle. It's not possible to chair a crossing entirely prototypically if the flangeway is not to scale. 

regards,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: Andrew Barrowman wrote: I've encountered a situation where the X chair isn't fully supported on its timber. When this happens on the prototype, is the timber shoved to fully support the chair?Hi Andy,

Where did you get the dimensions to the chair centre and the timber centre? Normally they would be the same.

But where the model flangeway is overscale, this affects the position of the knuckle. It's not possible to chair a crossing entirely prototypically if the flangeway is not to scale. 

regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin,

Screenshot below. Hope this explains what I'm on about.

The bends in the wingrails are quite close to the centerline of the X timber. If I understand correctly,  the X chair has to be positioned either before or after the bends, but when I do that it's overhanging the edge of the timber.

It's easy enough to nudge the timber to accommodate the chair if that's legitimate.

Regards,
Andy





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