click here for a list of all existing Templot documentation
about Templot Club cookie information pre-print options:    

click image to open Templot Club in a new tab
Templot club top logo
looking for Templot? - (free)



 you are not logged in  - Login | Join


receive all messages by email: info


Recent Topics
Front Page  Search  Image Gallery  Gallery Upload  My Account  Members  Help  
make a donation  
please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors Templot Companion - User Guide
            messages archive on Yahoo
page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Trackbuilding topics > 3D Printed Track and Turnouts
Templot web site

             Rating                           3D Printed Track and Turnouts
  Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  5  Next Page Last Page      
 Start new topic   Reply blank   Printer friendly 
  Rate this topic  
AuthorMessage
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
121st message | this message only posted: 12 Feb 2016 23:22
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Martin,

Your point has sunk in :)

I think I will either have to make a special chair to accommodate the bend in the rail, or shove the timber a bit further away from the A timber.

Regards,
Andy
__________
message ref: 20001

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
122nd message | this message only posted: 12 Feb 2016 23:32
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Andrew Barrowman wrote:It's easy enough to nudge the timber to accommodate the chair if that's legitimate.Hi Andy,

The rail separation in the X chair (and all the crossing chairs) is determined by the distance from the FP gauge intersection and the crossing angle. This applies regardless of the flangeway gap. If you move it (and its timber) from its designed location, it won't match the rails.

Where the flangeway is wider than scale, this changes the position of the knuckle, but not the chairs. If the result is that the knuckle overlaps the X chair, so be it. All you can do is fudge it -- the only solution is to model P4 instead with a flangeway gap nearer to scale.

Moving the timber further from the crossing is likely to look odd with an overscale gap between the timbers.

You could perhaps start from first principles and design a new X chair for 3" flangeways which supports the knuckle, possibly as a slab and bracket design. This would be my preferred approach -- there is no existing prototype for 3" flangeways so it is down to your permanent way staff to do the design work for it. :)

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 20002

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
123rd message | this message only posted: 12 Feb 2016 23:51
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
"it is down to your permanent way staff to do the design work for it. :)"

They all walked off the job!

(I think I know how to finesse it.)
__________
message ref: 20003

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
124th message | this message only posted: 16 Feb 2016 06:18
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Martin,

There seems to be a minor incompatibility between Templot generated DXF files TurboCAD. I'm working in metric units in TurboCAD, but I have to set Templot to output the DXF in inches. If I set it to mm, the dimensions of the imported DXF are very large. I suspect they are 25.4 times too large, but I have not actually measured them.

It works fine when I set Templot to output in inches, so it's not a big deal. It may well be an issue with the DXF import in TurboCAD.

On another subject, I have been able to create 3D models of the timbers for a C switch complete with the required chairs. I can now create any complete C switch regardless of its curvature by simply snapping the timber/chair assemblies on to the 2D DXF import from Templot.

As most of my turnouts use B or C switches I will do the same thing for a B switch. This will speed up the "fabrication" process quite a bit.

I plan to create some pre-assembled chair assemblies for the crossing angles that I need. There are quite a few of them, but I think I now have a method to produce them that is not too tedious.

Regards,
Andy
__________
message ref: 20007

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
125th message | this message only posted: 16 Feb 2016 10:54
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Andrew Barrowman wrote:There seems to be a minor incompatibility between Templot generated DXF files TurboCAD. I'm working in metric units in TurboCAD, but I have to set Templot to output the DXF in inches.Hi Andy,

A traditional DXF file contains only the numbers, it doesn't contain any indication of what units the numbers represent.

This means that when working with DXF files it is necessary to set the required units in both the exporting and importing programs -- normally the same units for both. That's why Templot puts a note of the units in the default file name for reference.

When importing a DXF file into TurboCAD, click the Setup button on the TurboCAD file dialog, and then set the units to match the file before opening the file:



However, looking at TurboCAD DeLuxe 20, that option appears not to be available in the file setup. :? Instead, it seems that it loads the DXF file in inches regardless, and it is then necessary to change to Metric units at Options > Space Units menu item after opening the file. :?

Although I said I would do no more on the chairing, I have in fact been doing so, and I now have an algorithm to set 1 or 2 bridge chairs as necessary at the heel of a switch: :)



When only one bridge chair is needed, I can't find any consistency in the REA sources as to which rails get the bridge chair. Different drawings show different arrangements. Anyone?

For Templot purposes I have for the present decided that the bridge chair goes under the turnout-road rails. A possible argument against this is that a skewed bridge chair has the chair screws closer to the edge of the timber than a skewed ordinary chair would have. This may become more of an issue in chairing crossings on square-on timbering. Discuss. :)

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 20008

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
126th message | this message only posted: 16 Feb 2016 19:22
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks Martin!

The import setup is available in the version of TC I am using (Pro V16). I never knew it was there :)

I have set it to mm and it solved the problem.

Re. the bridge chairs, I was going to ask you about that. I've just been going with whatever seems to work. I've even been able to alternate full size versus bridge on two adjacent timbers, but that might be a consequence of my chair dimensions being a bit off. I think I need to adjust the bridge chair slightly.

Thanks and regards,
Andy
__________
message ref: 20010

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
127th message | this message only posted: 18 Feb 2016 08:14
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote: Andrew Barrowman wrote:There seems to be a minor incompatibility between Templot generated DXF files TurboCAD. I'm working in metric units in TurboCAD, but I have to set Templot to output the DXF in inches.Hi Andy,

A traditional DXF file contains only the numbers, it doesn't contain any indication of what units the numbers represent.

This means that when working with DXF files it is necessary to set the required units in both the exporting and importing programs -- normally the same units for both. That's why Templot puts a note of the units in the default file name for reference.

When importing a DXF file into TurboCAD, click the Setup button on the TurboCAD file dialog, and then set the units to match the file before opening the file:



However, looking at TurboCAD DeLuxe 20, that option appears not to be available in the file setup. :? Instead, it seems that it loads the DXF file in inches regardless, and it is then necessary to change to Metric units at Options > Space Units menu item after opening the file. :?

Although I said I would do no more on the chairing, I have in fact been doing so, and I now have an algorithm to set 1 or 2 bridge chairs as necessary at the heel of a switch: :)



When only one bridge chair is needed, I can't find any consistency in the REA sources as to which rails get the bridge chair. Different drawings show different arrangements. Anyone?

For Templot purposes I have for the present decided that the bridge chair goes under the turnout-road rails. A possible argument against this is that a skewed bridge chair has the chair screws closer to the edge of the timber than a skewed ordinary chair would have. This may become more of an issue in chairing crossings on square-on timbering. Discuss. :)

regards,

Martin.
Martin
For what its worth that is how the bridge chairs are shown on the Exactoscale (chair position) plans
__________
message ref: 20019

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
128th message | this message only posted: 18 Feb 2016 21:51
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
The track manual B switch (Fig 21) shows each path having one bridge chair and one regular chair :)

The regular chair is on the outside of the curve, which sort of makes sense as it should put less tension on the screws than a bridge chair at the same location. I think I'll do it that way on the 3D prints.
__________
message ref: 20025

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
129th message | this message only posted: 19 Feb 2016 19:10
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
In this shot it looks as if the the bridge chairs are on both stock rails.

Turnout

__________
message ref: 20026

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
130th message | this message only posted: 19 Feb 2016 20:05
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Andrew Barrowman wrote: In this shot it looks as if the the bridge chairs are on both stock rails.
Turnout
Hi Andy,

Thanks for that. It's difficult to find any consistency. Where there is space for one of each, most drawings of REA A, B and C switches show the L1 bridge chairs on the turnout-road rails, as in my screenshot. Len Newman has drawn them that way on the Exactoscale templates, as John confirmed. That also corresponds to GWR practice.

But for REA D and E switches, the bridge chair is shown on both the outer stock rails, with ordinary chairs on the inner rails as in your pic.

It seems to me that it would be more sensible to have the bridge chairs always on the main-road rails, and not therefore requiring to be skewed on the timber. But that arrangement is not shown on any drawing I have found.

So take your pick... :)

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 20027

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
131st message | this message only posted: 20 Feb 2016 06:31
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
This is a new B switch for 3D printing. The block chairs might not look very ornate, but they were a right $$$$ to create. I wonder if the subtle changes I've made will show up in the printed version. Probably not in 00, but possibly discernible in 0.

The bridge chairs are a bit of a cheat. They are all M1 size. I should probably replace them with L1 chairs and see what happens.



__________
message ref: 20028

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
132nd message | this message only posted: 24 Feb 2016 21:39
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Martin Wynne wrote:This location is easily accessible, so I will go and have a closer look.Hi Andy,

Today the sun shone on the righteous, and me, so I went back for another look. That block chair is definitely skewed on the timber, and square-on to the turnout-side stock rail:




The sun also shone through the spring steel keys, no doubt you will be replicating this feature in your 3D printing. :)



Note also that where there is only one bridge chair, it is on the turnout rail, the main-road rail having an ordinary chair.

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 20045

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
133rd message | this message only posted: 27 Feb 2016 19:27
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks for that Martin. I'll get right on those see-through springs :)

BTW, why is there a check rail on the turnout rail? Is it a very short turnout?

Andy
__________
message ref: 20051

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
134th message | this message only posted: 28 Feb 2016 06:16
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thank goodness for "Mirror Copy".

I realized I had not skewed the P chairs as Martin has shown. I thought I would have to reconstruct the chairs on the curved stock rail. It turns out I only had to make a mirror image of the chairs on the straight stock rail.
__________
message ref: 20052

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
135th message | this message only posted: 3 Mar 2016 05:52
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
I eventually came up with this method of making the chairs for the crossing. This one is a V 7.0, but this method works for any crossing angle.

First, extra wide jaws are positioned at the intersection of the timber center-lines and the rails then aligned with the rails.



Here they are in plan view.



Profile "masks" aligned perpendicular to the axis of the crossing (green line) are added. (They are on the center-lines of these equalized timbers, but that would not be the case for square on timbers.)



The 3D intersections of the jaws and the masks produces this.



Baseplates with bolt and buttress features are added. They are also aligned perpendicular to the crossing axis.



These are then sliced along the crossing axis, the unwanted piece is discarded and a mirror image on that axis is added to create the complete chairs. These chairs are then stored as a single block that can be reused for any V 7.0 crossing.



The chair at the nose should really be a slab and bracket, but that's beyond the resolution of my 3D printer.

__________
message ref: 20055

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
136th message | this message only posted: 15 Jul 2017 06:18
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Time flies etc. I've been a bit caught up in other things. Some useful, some not so useful. Anyway, it occurred to me that it might not be a terribly bad idea to shunt a 3D model up to Shapeways to see what their print quality is like.

A common crossing sample is in process. I'll post the results when I receive them. If they are satisfactory it should (in theory) be possible for others to buy copies of similar models from Shapeways, but that's unlikely to happen in the very near future.
__________
message ref: 21656

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
137th message | this message only posted: 16 Jul 2017 05:19
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Some of the more useful bits.



__________
message ref: 21664

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
138th message | this message only posted: 29 Jul 2017 23:26
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:whereas the 1PL, 1PR, etc., block chairs are always square-on to the main road.Well that has always been my understanding, and all the switch drawings I have show this. Including the Exactoscale templates.

Unfortunately it cannot be. There is only one pair of L and R block chairs in each size, which are used for both left-hand and right-hand switches. The chair drawings clearly show the outer jaw for the stock rail square to the rail, with the inner jaw angled to match the switch rail (blade):



I have therefore now modified the code for this:



Unless and until anyone can shed more light on this? :?

regards,

Martin.

Hi Martin,

Looking at the documents I have suggests there is something fishy going on here.

I think the handing of the block chairs depends on the handing of the turnout. Quote, "These chairs are handed, depending on the hand of the switch they support..........", and yet the drawings seem to contradict that.

That would mean in the example above that they are all "R" block chairs which is, I think, also consistent with your statement that they are always "square-on to the main road".

It may be the case that there was a coque-up in the drawing office that the platelayers cheerfully ignored. Stranger things have happened.

Regards,
ab

__________
message ref: 21735

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
139th message | this message only posted: 30 Jul 2017 00:01
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides


This is a sample crossing printed by Shapeways in sintered nylon. There are quite a few things wrong with it, but I rather like the material. The definition isn't quite as good as other types of material, acrylic polymer for example, but the trade-off is that this stuff takes a lot of abuse.

__________
message ref: 21736

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
140th message | this message only posted: 30 Jul 2017 15:51
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Andrew Barrowman wrote: consistent with your statement that they are always "square-on to the main road" Hi Andy,

No, not to the main road, square-on to the stock rail.

I'm sticking to that, and drawings which show otherwise are just plain wrong, because block chairs with seatings square to the switch rail simply aren't available.

(At least for REA switches, pre-grouping switch designs can vary a lot.)

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 21740

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
141st message | this message only posted: 30 Jul 2017 16:09
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Andrew Barrowman wrote:

This is a sample crossing printed by Shapeways in sintered nylon. There are quite a few things wrong with it, but I rather like the material. The definition isn't quite as good as other types of material, acrylic polymer for example, but the trade-off is that this stuff takes a lot of abuse.
Hi Andy,

Looking very good. :)

Does it need to take a lot of abuse? I think I would prefer the best achievable detail and definition, providing it is not so delicate that it can't be handled to insert the rail.

Once glued in position and ballasted, I don't see the need for great strength. You are surely not going to nail them down, as some folks do with set-track? :)

re: your experiments on RMweb with plastic sections of the rail -- a couple of points:

1. wheels should run on the wing rail until they reach the vee, so if the wing rail is plastic they would lose pick-up, as in a "dead frog". See the wear marks:


thanks to Mick Nicholson for this photo

2. if model wheels rub against the check rail, they can be lifted fractionally off the running rail, again losing pick-up if the check rail is not live.

Experienced trackbuilders make the check rails live for this reason. With functional plastic chairs that means making an additional connection to the check rail.

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 21741

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
142nd message | this message only posted: 30 Jul 2017 18:03
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote: Andrew Barrowman wrote: consistent with your statement that they are always "square-on to the main road" Hi Andy,

No, not to the main road, square-on to the stock rail.

I'm sticking to that, and drawings which show otherwise are just plain wrong, because block chairs with seatings square to the switch rail simply aren't available.

(At least for REA switches, pre-grouping switch designs can vary a lot.)

regards,

Martin.

Ah! Square to the stock rail, then there will always be an L chair opposite a R chair. That agrees with the diagram in Table 3 of the track manual.

Thanks.

__________
message ref: 21742

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
143rd message | this message only posted: 30 Jul 2017 18:52
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote: Andrew Barrowman wrote:

This is a sample crossing printed by Shapeways in sintered nylon. There are quite a few things wrong with it, but I rather like the material. The definition isn't quite as good as other types of material, acrylic polymer for example, but the trade-off is that this stuff takes a lot of abuse.
Hi Andy,

Looking very good. :)

Does it need to take a lot of abuse? I think I would prefer the best achievable detail and definition, providing it is not so delicate that it can't be handled to insert the rail.

Once glued in position and ballasted, I don't see the need for great strength. You are surely not going to nail them down, as some folks do with set-track? :)

re: your experiments on RMweb with plastic sections of the rail -- a couple of points:

1. wheels should run on the wing rail until they reach the vee, so if the wing rail is plastic they would lose pick-up, as in a "dead frog". See the wear marks:


thanks to Mick Nicholson for this photo

2. if model wheels rub against the check rail, they can be lifted fractionally off the running rail, again losing pick-up if the check rail is not live.

Experienced trackbuilders make the check rails live for this reason. With functional plastic chairs that means making an additional connection to the check rail.

regards,

Martin.

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the information. The chairs need to be quite robust to withstand the lateral force exerted while threading the check rails and wing rails. That's not to say there are no other materials that can handle it, but it will take a fair amount of testing to find out. My preference is to play it safe initially, but once the models are uploaded to Shapeways it's simple enough to order them in different materials.

I have the impression that a large number of modelers believe turnout construction is something of a "black art" and my idea with the printed rails is to make it as simple as possible to construct a working turnout. Of course there are tradeoffs with that approach but again it's not difficult to make both versions available so that people can decide for themselves. It's a "suck it and see" marketing method - fairly easy with 3D printing, not so easy with hard tooling.

Last night I uploaded a file for a piece of track to test my new "super-detailed" chairs. Unfortunately there is so much detail in the chairs that the file was enormous and Shapeways couldn't handle it. I will have to make them a bit less detailed. I think it's mainly caused by all the fillets. They do make the rendering look very pretty but they are probably invisible when printed at 1:76 anyway, so off they come.

Regards,
ab

__________
message ref: 21743

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
144th message | this message only posted: 1 Aug 2017 03:06
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
I simplified the three bolt chairs and ordered samples in both sintered nylon and FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail) for comparison. I'll also print some in PLA on my printer. Here's the rendering:



__________
message ref: 21747

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
145th message | this message only posted: 1 Aug 2017 03:55
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
That's looking very good Andy.

You do realise that my reference to daylight showing through steel keys was in jest?

Do I understand that you are now planning to make these 3D prints available commercially? Do Peco know about this? :)

Martin.

__________
message ref: 21749

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
146th message | this message only posted: 1 Aug 2017 04:58
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote: That's looking very good Andy.

You do realise that my reference to daylight showing through steel keys was in jest?

Do I understand that you are now planning to make these 3D prints available commercially? Do Peco know about this? :)

Martin.

Hi Martin,

Yes, I knew you were joking but it gave me the idea that spring steel keys avoid the problem of which way a wooden key should be facing. We'll see how this works. It's simple enough to revert to a solid representation of a steel key or wooden keys. I suppose I could always make handed versions of the chairs with wooden keys if push comes to shove.

Yes, the plan is to make them available through Shapeways or a similar service. I got so fed up with certain manufacturers announcing turnouts when they obviously hadn't done any development that I thought I might as well throw a rock into the pond and let people benefit from the work I've already done. That's why I'm concerned about simplifying construction and making them fairly robust.

At some point I might do what you have done with Templot and make my models available to anyone who wants to do it for themselves, but I would not do that until I'm sure these things really work.

Cheers,
Andy

PS - It ain't half hot here.

__________
message ref: 21750

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
147th message | this message only posted: 1 Aug 2017 11:37
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Andrew Barrowman wrote:it gave me the idea that spring steel keys avoid the problem of which way a wooden key should be facing.Hi Andy,

Sorry to throw a fly in your ointment. (Can you throw a fly?)

Check rails always have solid wooden keys even where the rest of the track has spring steel keys. The side forces which check rails must resist can be sufficient to crush the steel keys.

Check rails are also vertical in order to present full face contact with the back of the wheel and prevent rapid wear -- although some old pre-group chair drawings show inclined check rails.

If you decide to mould plastic check rails, you need to know that check rails often have two fish-bolt holes in one end. :) They are often cut from redundant running rails. This will be the first thing I check when the Peco turnouts are released.

It was hot here, but not now -- summer seems to have gone AWOL.

Martin.

__________
message ref: 21751

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
148th message | this message only posted: 1 Aug 2017 17:50
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Martin,

I forgot about the wooden check rail keys. Which direction are they supposed to be driven?

Any inclined rails will be purely accidental. Bolt holes won't be a problem. They'll be in the model. I'll know they are there even if no one can see them :)

Andy
__________
message ref: 21752

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
149th message | this message only posted: 1 Aug 2017 18:03
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Andrew Barrowman wrote:I forgot about the wooden check rail keys. Which direction are they supposed to be driven?Hi Andy,

Probably alternating until the gang find out which ones keep falling out. Then they will turn those round. The gang's daily maintenance instructions do make a big issue of keeping check rail keys tight, even if you do nothing else.

In uni-directional double-track I would expect them to be driven in the same direction as traffic. But there are always locations where they need to be the other way to stay tight.

Of course the holes are there. I can see them from here. :)

Martin.

__________
message ref: 21753

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
150th message | this message only posted: 1 Aug 2017 19:44
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Remarkably it seems this topic has been viewed more than 18,000 times. Maybe they should bring back conscription.
__________
message ref: 21754

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
151st message | this message only posted: 3 Aug 2017 17:46
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
The samples are not expected to ship until August 14. Add another week for them to arrive here.

This is why I prefer to use my own printer.
__________
message ref: 21756

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
152nd message | this message only posted: 6 Aug 2017 20:30
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
I had to "beef up" the chair model slightly for my home printer, and here it is. It's intentionally not a close-up image. In close-up you will see the print layers - in fact the only way I can see them is with a loupe or in an extreme close-up photo. At normal viewing distance they are invisible.

It will be interesting to see how the samples from Shapeways compare.



__________
message ref: 21757

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
153rd message | this message only posted: 15 Aug 2017 22:38
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
The samples arrived.

Same CAD model. Sintered nylon on the left, "Frosted Ultra Detail" resin on the right. (Both sprayed with dark brown camouflage paint.)



No contest in terms of appearance, but the resin is rather brittle. I also need to change the jaws to support the rail a bit better. More protos will be required.

Next is the latest in PLA on my own printer. The detail isn't too bad but PLA prints can be a bit inconsistent.



__________
message ref: 21793

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
154th message | this message only posted: 16 Aug 2017 21:44
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
I conducted a highly scientific experiment with a soldering iron to find out how the various materials above react to temperature.

PLA and the sintered nylon are both thermoplastic. Amazingly they both melt, but the nylon melts much more slowly than the PLA.

The resin does not melt or burn although prolonged heating definitely weakens it. I think it might be able to cope with the heat associated with soldering the V and connecting it to the wing rails.
__________
message ref: 21796

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
155th message | this message only posted: 16 Aug 2017 22:20
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
That sounds promising Andy.

Can you provide a quick summary of these materials, relative costs, method of printing, etc? Are they all feasible for home printing?

The resin version looks great, and being able to solder close to it is a big plus. Is the resin available with a filler such as chopped glassfibre to strengthen it?

When you say it is fragile, how fragile? Can it be damaged by normal handling? If an occasional chair jaw snaps off, can it be glued back on? What with?

Martin.

__________
message ref: 21797

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
156th message | this message only posted: 16 Aug 2017 23:48
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote: That sounds promising Andy.

Can you provide a quick summary of these materials, relative costs, method of printing, etc? Are they all feasible for home printing?

The resin version looks great, and being able to solder close to it is a big plus. Is the resin available with a filler such as chopped glassfibre to strengthen it?

When you say it is fragile, how fragile? Can it be damaged by normal handling? If an occasional chair jaw snaps off, can it be glued back on? What with?

Martin.
Hi Martin,

The most likely candidates for home printing are PLA and ABS. PLA is easier to use and I believe better for fine details. I have not tried ABS yet.

Cost wise they are about the same which is peanuts. A 1Kg spool costs about $20 and the prints are only about 25% dense in the timber/sleeper areas so you can print an awful lot of bases from 1Kg. Even at 0 gauge scale the cost of the plastic is next to nothing.

Resin and sintered nylon are not really suitable for home printing (yet) and they are a lot more expensive, but that cost includes the cost of the actual printing from someone like Shapeways. (There are other suppliers, but I don't know anything about them.)

If I was selling those sleepers through Shapeways I would probably have to ask something like 50 cents each for the nylon and 70 cents each for the resin! Obviously you wouldn't want to build track with them at those prices and even turnout bases might be too expensive for a lot off people. However, I think the prices will come down over time.

Reinforcing with filler is not an option that I know of. My guess is it would not be compatible with the printing method.

Re. fragility - normal handling is not a problem. The issue is if you exert too much force on the chair jaws by twisting the rail while inserting it or if the rail is too "fat", one side might pop off. I can thread and bend the wings and checks with PLA but I'm not sure that will work with resin.

I believe you can glue the resin with CA, but I've yet to try it. There are also solvents but they seem to be rather nasty.

Rgds,
ab

__________
message ref: 21798

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
157th message | this message only posted: 17 Aug 2017 03:13
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Mind you, spendy or not, perhaps I could flog some turnout bases to Peco so they could use them for marketing stuff they may eventually commit to hard tooling, one of these days, maybe.

(I can't believe I just said that!)
__________
message ref: 21799

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
158th message | this message only posted: 17 Aug 2017 11:54
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Thanks for the explanations.

Is it strictly necessary that a turnout base is in one piece? If it was assembled by sticking several timbering sections down onto a base, you might eliminate some of the rail threading problems. It might also save some costs if the timbers were thinner.

For example, if the main moulding looked like this (it might need some additional temporary webs):


the pre-bent closure/wing rails could be easily inserted from the end until they come up against the half chairs on the split timbers.

The vee rails could then be more easily assembled on a separate moulding, and inserted in place. If the joins in the timbers are aligned to the edge of the chairs, they wouldn't be too noticeable after painting.

For the check rails, the flared ends are often unnecessarily wide. For example in 4-SF (00-SF) and EM, with 1.0mm flangeways, an end gap of around 1.3mm would be sufficient as above, and actually looks more in keeping with modern prototype practice (where the end gap is 3.5" = 1.17mm at 4mm/ft).

Admittedly some pre-group and industrial designs had very curly check rail ends, but they served no real purpose.

With a gentle flare angle, the problems of inserting the check rails without damaging the chairs would be much reduced.

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 21800

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
159th message | this message only posted: 17 Aug 2017 14:42
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides
If the web was cut between the timbers where the check rails are, the check rails could be threaded on and then the stock rails added afterwards as the chairs would all be in a line.

Phil

__________
message ref: 21801

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
160th message | this message only posted: 17 Aug 2017 20:02
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks for the ideas Martin and Phil.

I should be able to strengthen the inside half of the check rail jaws as they are fairly well hidden. With that and minimizing the flair might be sufficient.

Breaking out the vee section is a good idea. My only concern is that it adds some tolerance in the position of the vee relative to the rest of the frog, but maybe it's manageable.

One of the nice things about printing is there isn't much of a penalty for proliferating a lot of different versions. I'm thinking I might end up with a version that has all metal rails and a live frog and another version that has printed checks and wings with a dead frog.

These days with DCC and keep alive caps stalling on dead frogs isn't a problem, and some people really can't be bothered with the extra effort associated with frog polarity switching. It takes all kinds......
__________
message ref: 21802

 
This is topic ID = 2734     Page created at 16:22 (local time) Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  5  Next Page Last Page    
You can type a quick reply to this topic here.

Click in the box to begin.


But to reply to an individual message, or to include images, attachments and formatted text, use the reply buttons on each message above.

To start a new topic in this forum, click the Start new topic button below.
To start a new topic in a different forum, click the Forum Jump drop-down list below.

             Start new topic 

 click to jump to a different forum:     Back to top of page

Templot Club > Forums > Trackbuilding topics > 3D Printed Track and Turnouts
about Templot Club

list recently active topics Templot Companion - User Guide - A-Z Index Old Templot Companion Please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors.
indexing link for search engines only

back to top of page


Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so.

The small print: All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted. The owner of this web site is not responsible for any content displayed here other than his own contributions. The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason.
Problems with this web site? Contact webmaster@templot.com.   This web site uses cookies: click for information.  
© 2017  

Powered by UltraBB - © 2009 Data 1 Systems