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                                       Drawings/dimensions for 00-SF track gauges
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 2 Sep 2015 16:33
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madscientist
 

 

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I know this was posted somewhere before , but can someone direct me to a drawing of the various track gauges for 00-SF. I'm going to run up some new ones and rather then cobble measurements off existing ones, I'd like to go to the horses mouth so to speak

Dave
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Dave,

Brian Tulley (polybear) is holding the current drawings. No doubt he will reply shortly.

I can post the original check gauge tool drawing:


(the arrowed dimensions are the critical ones)

With 0.92mm rail it is possible for the check gauge to go as low as 15.16mm if the rail is left  loose in the slots and the gauge tool is on the limits. Experienced users will know to pack the slots with aluminium cooking foil to get a good fit in the gauge tool for maximum accuracy. Unfortunately batches of rail vary, so this is unavoidable with fixed-slot gauge tools usable on any batch of rail. If you are making your own gauge tool, you could make a spring-loaded self-adjusting design instead.

The finished check gauge should not be less than 15.2mm on the track.

From the drawing you should be able to derive plain 16.2mm roller track gauge tools quite easily. As far as I know, only Brian has the 3-point gauge tool drawing.

The tool diameter should be as small as convenient. Ideally it should fit between adjacent timbers, allowing soldering to take place on both sides. If you are planning constructing complex formations, it is worth milling flats on each side for better access.

regards,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 3 Sep 2015 07:45
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madscientist
 

 

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Thanks. I have a lathe and cnc milling , so I should be able to make all the gauges including a 3 point track gauge . ( is there drawings for that ? )
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4th message | this message only posted: 3 Sep 2015 18:39
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polybear
 

 

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Hi,

It would probably be unfair of me to post the engineering drawings generated for the purposes of Gauge manufacture, since the designs are now in effect the property of C&L Finescale after I handed over the project to them (I enjoyed being able to provide them, but the value of each batch of Gauges I ordered from the machine shop was around a thousand pounds a time; as the popularity of 00-sf gradually increased I was becoming more and more concerned that a commercial source may also decide to manufacture/sell similar Gauges to 00-sf dimensions, with the risk that I may be left with a batch of Gauges and no customers.  In fact another source is now also supplying 00-sf Gauges, namely DCC Concepts in Australia).

However, I'm sure I can help out with some information that will help you achieve what you want.

Check Rail Gauges
Critical dimensions are as posted by Martin above; it's worth putting a flat on End "A" (so the cross-section view of "A" appears as a "D-shape".). This allows easy use of the Gauge in the vicinity of the Crossing Vee.

16.2mm Roller Gauge
Similar to the Check Rail Gauge design, but symmetrical at both ends (i.e. End "C" has dimensions as per "End A" in Martin's drawing).  Again there is a flat, but this is only required at one end of the Gauge.
Finally,  the critical dimension is 16.20 - 16.23mm.

3-Point Gauge
These are a dead useful Gauge - I find they work really well when making plain (straight) trackwork, as they hold the rails very efficiently.  See here (Post#77) :

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69145-attention-00-sf-track-builders/page-4

The width of the Gauge slots is 1.0mm +/-0.02mm (it being a lot easier to get a 1mm milling cutter than a 0.95mm cutter...), whilst the slot depth is 0.9 - 0.95mm (not a critical dimension); the Gauge width between the inner and outer pairs of slots is 16.20 - 16.23mm; the distance between the outer faces of the wider pair of Gauge slots is 30mm +/-0.1mm.

Pictures of all Gauges are here:

http://00-sf.org.uk/#gauge_tools

Please bear in mind that the Gauges I supplied (now C&L) were originally designed for use with C&L Code 75 Bullhead Rail; other rail sections (and rail from other suppliers) may require different slot widths; see here (Post #134):

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94567-00-sf-and-00-bf-can-you-mix/page-6

HTH
Brian



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5th message | this message only posted: 4 Sep 2015 05:05
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Can I make a comment that if using plastic chairs do not make the rail slots too deep, as the rail is held at a 1-20 cant and the head of the rail needs to rotate in the slot. if too deep the rail is held upright whilst in the gage, but relaxes back after thus gauge narrowing
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6th message | this message only posted: 4 Sep 2015 08:19
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polybear
 

 

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Thanks John - good point. The rail slots on the 15.2mm/16.2mm Roller Gauges previously supplied by me were nominally 1.7mm deep. I've only used them for soldered track construction though, so cannot comment as to the rail cant on glued track construction.
HTH
Brian
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7th message | this message only posted: 7 Sep 2015 14:51
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while I am disappointed that what might have been public information at one time is now commercial, I am thankful that Brian provided a few hints


my own view is that such information should be clearly in the public domain, simply to ensure that such information is not lost to the users. I dont think it would have an effect on any commercial producers of gauges, one way or the other


I intend to machine my own and in doing so I will draw up an Autocad dimensioned drawing, I will post that here, if no one objects.

dave
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8th message | this message only posted: 7 Sep 2015 14:56
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madscientist
 

 

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The width of the Gauge slots is 1.0mm +/-0.02mm (it being a lot easier to get a 1mm milling cutter than a 0.95mm cutter...), whilst the slot depth is 0.9 - 0.95mm (not a critical dimension); the Gauge width between the inner and outer pairs of slots is 16.20 - 16.23mm; the distance between the outer faces of the wider pair of Gauge slots is 30mm +/-0.1mm


for completeness, whats the distance between the outer faces of the inner( narrower ) slots
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9th message | this message only posted: 7 Sep 2015 21:28
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keithj15
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Regardless what gauge I am building track in, I find spring clip gauges (as used by Norman Solomon) feel more accurate and secure than roller gauges. Roller gauges are generally cut too deep, and so come into contact with the chairs on fine scale track. In the end it all comes down to availability and personal choice. However when I wanted to get a couple of clip gauges for code 75 OO fine scale, after much searching on the web, I could not find a supplier and in the end turned to an engineering hobbyist who was able to produce what I wanted. I still make use of roller gauges, but mainly for plain track rather than turnouts and crossings.
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10th message | this message only posted: 7 Sep 2015 21:50
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Hayfield
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What's a clip gauge please
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11th message | this message only posted: 9 Sep 2015 03:40
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Terry Flynn
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madscientist wrote: I know this was posted somewhere before , but can someone direct me to a drawing of the various track gauges for 00-SF. I'm going to run up some new ones and rather then cobble measurements off existing ones, I'd like to go to the horses mouth so to speak

Dave
The AMRA fine tolerance standard has a fully dimensioned  track gauge drawing covering many fine scale track gauges. The gauge is of the clamp variety and can be used for any size rail. The AMRA H0 fine tollerance standard  = 00-SF. 
Cheers,Terry Flynn.
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12th message | this message only posted: 9 Sep 2015 07:46
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Terry Flynn wrote:The AMRA fine tolerance standard has a fully dimensioned  track gauge drawing covering many fine scale track gauges. The gauge is of the clamp variety and can be used for any size rail. The AMRA H0 fine tollerance standard  = 00-SF.
Terry's track gauge drawing is on page 6 here: http://www.amra.asn.au/finewheeltrack.pdf

It provides rail clamping for the rails at 16.25mm. The actual track gauge is not too critical provided it is not less than 16.2mm. The AMRA H0-SF dimensions are slightly different from 00-SF but not by much.

However, it does not provide clamping, or even any fixed slot, for the check rails -- for the much more important 15.2mm check gauge dimension.

Also the gauge is drawn symmetrical, making no allowance for gauge-widening.

For the crossing flangeway, a 1.0mm shim is much easier to use during construction than a roller-type gauge.

regards,

Martin.

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13th message | this message only posted: 9 Sep 2015 17:04
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Hi Dave,
Whilst I did post drawings of the original roller gauges on the 00-sf forum some years ago, it was for the purposes of allowing purchasers of the first batch of gauges to comment/approve the design and /or suggest changes prior to parting with money in advance of manufacture of the first batch of gauges. When it became apparent that the demand for subsequent batches would become an on-going event I decided to remove the drawings to minimise risk of another party using them ( perhaps an established manufacturer) and making very large batches which would attract discounts of scale; this may have resulted in me being left with a batch of unsold gauges with £1K of money tied up in them.
As far as I can recall the drawing for the 00-sf 3-point gauge has never been posted on-line.
As previously mentioned, it would be wrong of me to post the drawings now that C&L have the rights to them.
HTH
Brian
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14th message | this message only posted: 9 Sep 2015 17:10
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madscientist wrote:
The width of the Gauge slots is 1.0mm +/-0.02mm (it being a lot easier to get a 1mm milling cutter than a 0.95mm cutter...), whilst the slot depth is 0.9 - 0.95mm (not a critical dimension); the Gauge width between the inner and outer pairs of slots is 16.20 - 16.23mm; the distance between the outer faces of the wider pair of Gauge slots is 30mm +/-0.1mm


for completeness, whats the distance between the outer faces of the inner( narrower ) slots


Hi Dave,
I don't have access to the drawing at the moment, but from memory it was something like 3mm or so. If it is too wide then it could affect the curve of the rail thru' the slot; too narrow and it could prove to be too fragile and not last long. The original 3-point gauges were manufactured from steel, incidentally, and i believe still are.

HTH
Brian
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15th message | this message only posted: 9 Sep 2015 21:37
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madscientist
 

 

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Thanks Brian.
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16th message | this message only posted: 11 Sep 2015 04:42
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Terry Flynn
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Martin Wynne wrote: Terry Flynn wrote:The AMRA fine tolerance standard has a fully dimensioned  track gauge drawing covering many fine scale track gauges. The gauge is of the clamp variety and can be used for any size rail. The AMRA H0 fine tollerance standard  = 00-SF.
Terry's track gauge drawing is on page 6 here: http://www.amra.asn.au/finewheeltrack.pdf

It provides rail clamping for the rails at 16.25mm. The actual track gauge is not too critical provided it is not less than 16.2mm. The AMRA H0-SF dimensions are slightly different from 00-SF but not by much.

However, it does not provide clamping, or even any fixed slot, for the check rails -- for the much more important 15.2mm check gauge dimension.

Also the gauge is drawn symmetrical, making no allowance for gauge-widening.

For the crossing flangeway, a 1.0mm shim is much easier to use during construction than a roller-type gauge.

regards,

Martin.
Hello Martyn,
I have built many turnouts of various geometries using 3 AMRA gauges. The result is trackwork that does not need any adjustment for derailment free results. Similar to the shim method, there is no need to have the rail held held in a slot, as the gauges check gauge is correctly sized(>15.2mm) when the check rail is pushed against the gauge. When positioning the check rail I use 2 AMRA gauges. Having a symmetrical gauge means the user cannot use the gauge the wrong way around and is suitable for making K crossings and other track where check rails are required opposite each other. I am not saying the AMRA roller gauges are the ultimate method for construction the crossing V and K but the AMRA gauges are dimensionaly optimized to do the job for both V and K crossings.  My experience is if you use a minimum radius as calculated using the AMRA minimum radius standard, gauge widening is not necessary. After saying this I make the track gauge 16.5mm at  the point blades for easier construction.I would not waste time making a typical 3 point gauges because they are not accurate enough and do not provide enough gauge widening, To correctly gauge widen the 3 point track gauge needs to be as long as the longest fixed wheelbase locomotive you wish to run.
Cheers,
Terry Flynn.


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17th message | this message only posted: 25 Aug 2016 13:25
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madscientist
 

 

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Folks, I now find it impossible to source 00-SF 3 point track gauges , C&L seem to have so source for them

Is it not time for the benefit of the gauge to release a drawing that at the very least I can either make them myself or have them made on commission
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Martin Wynne
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Hi Dave,

It's disappointing after Brian handed over his gauge designs to C&L that they have not been able to maintain them in stock or provide the same level of service that Brian provided. They obviously sell well, or they wouldn't keep going out of stock.

The web site doesn't say that the 3-point gauges are not on order from the supplier, although it is worrying that the most important gauge, the check gauge, is no longer listed. I posted the drawing for that earlier in this topic. Sorry I don't have access to any of the other drawings.

C&L are now stocking the DCC Concepts 00-SF gauges, and may feel that the duplication is not justifiable. The DCC Concepts gauges are multi-slot roller gauges and therefore barely usable in my view, but that's just me. They could be cut down to 2-slot gauges by the user of course.

I have noticed that C&L are now at long last stocking gauges for the DOGA-Intermediate standard, and do have them in stock.

The C&L business is currently up for sale, which may be affecting the level of restocking they are prepared to undertake until a new owner is found.

regards,

Martin.

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19th message | this message only posted: 25 Aug 2016 14:03
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thanks Martin

thankfully I have a set of the check gauges , C&L have a " no order " against the 3 point gauges for a long time now

i really think brian should really release the drawings into the public domain to ensure that the 00-SF community can secure gauges

Dave
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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madscientist wrote: i really think Brian should really release the drawings into the public domain to ensure that the 00-SF community can secure gaugesHi Dave,

I have found that the gauge drawings are on the 00-SF Yahoo Group files at:

 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/00-SF/files/00-SF%20Track%20Gauges%20Folder/

They are Brian's copyright, so I won't post them here for now.

regards,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote: i really think Brian should really release the drawings into the public domain to ensure that the 00-SF community can secure gaugesHi Dave,

I have found that the gauge drawings are on the 00-SF Yahoo Group files at:

 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/00-SF/files/00-SF%20Track%20Gauges%20Folder/

They are Brian's copyright, so I won't post them here for now.

regards,

Martin.


Martin , you're a genius , I should also point out that recent ECJ rulings mean that a picture that is a link to the original source is not a copyright violation.

But I think Brian should be asked to release them formally , after all they are published on the Internet , so his previous comments re C&L do not really stand up. ( dont have a way of directly emailing him as I dont have his email , maybe you could ask him )

Dave
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Ill make up some 3-points gauges in the CNC miller ( proxxon ) in delrin first to see how i get on, then in brass
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Martin Wynne
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madscientist wrote:( don't have a way of directly emailing him as I don't have his email , maybe you could ask him )Hi Dave,

You can contact Brian via a PM on RMweb to "polybear":

 http://rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/user/289-polybear/

But it's very likely that he will reply here soon.

regards,

Martin.

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