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Martin, perhaps given that most Templot users building 00-SF turnouts are going to connect it to 16.5 track that Templot could be modified to flare the ends back to 16.5 for 00-SF. ?

I don't think anyone using 00-SF IS going to build any significant amount of plain track unless for very special reasons.

In reality therefore 00-SF is a "technique" for improving turnouts rather then a gauge

If I was building a layout in 00-SF I would certainly want to build the plain track (to 16.2mm), if only so that the prototype track details can be properly represented. I don't believe I'm alone in that.

regards,

Martin.
 

madscientist wrote:

I don't think anyone using 00-SF IS going to build any significant amount of plain track unless for very special reasons.

Hi Dave,

The track gauge for 00-SF is 16.2mm. If parts of the layout use some other gauge, they are not 00-SF (apart from any gauge-widening required on sharp curves).

If I was building a layout in 00-SF I would certainly want to build the plain track (to 16.2mm), if only so that the prototype track details can be properly represented. I don't believe I'm alone in that.

In reality therefore 00-SF is a "technique" for improving turnouts rather then a gauge

I don't see it that way, but each to his own.

regards,

Martin.
 

Given the subset of modellers in 00 specifically that are handbuilding any track at all, The 00-SF is very small and I would suggest those completing remaining within 00-SF for the whole layout is vanishing small.

Hello,
       One thing that may have been overlooked. Building various length prototypical track panels is only possible by hand and I don't think it would make thing things easy if one had a variation in the OO-SF
gauge. Surely if you want 16.5 gauge track there are already settings for those in Templot. Lets face it we are all bonkers in our varying levels of attention to detail when it comes to something to run locomotives on. I agree with Martin that spreading the ends of RTR sections to match is the easiest option if one wants to go down that road.
Regards.
Trevor.

From: "'Martin Wynne (on Templot Club)' forum@templot.com [templot]" <templot@yahoogroups.com>Date: 24 September 2015 18:22:16 BSTTo: templot@yahoogroups.comSubject: [templot] [Templot Club] re: 00-SF AND TEMPLOTReply-To: templot@yahoogroups.com

 from: Martin Wynne in forum: Templot talksubject: 00-SF AND TEMPLOT Web link - click here to read this message in original context with images and attachments,and with any subsequent amendments or additions:topic 2742 - message 19076Please use the above link to reply to this message. It is not possible to reply to this message by email.==============================More than 15 years ago, when I included the "EM minus 2" gauge/scale setting in Templot, I gave it the shorter designation "00-SF".At the time that seemed entirely reasonable, because it is intended that 00 models should run on it.But with the benefit of hindsight it was clearly a big mistake. I believe the reference to 00 has been a primary cause of all the argument and contention over the years.I don't think I can go on over and over again explaining 00-SF forever. The final straw has come today with a post on RMweb muddying the water with suggestions of using 16.2mm crossings on a 16.5mm layout, and building variable-gauge pointwork. That strikes me as a recipe for disaster in the long term.00-SF is not 00. It is a variant of EM. It is a standard in its own right with a track gauge is 16.2mm. Everywhere -- except where gauge-widened on sharp curves in prototypical fashion. (Some users like to use 16.5mm flexi-track for that.)As the inventor of the "00-SF" designation I can uninvent it. And I have now done so. I have changed the designation to | 4-SF | in Templot:gallery/2/original/2_241216_180000000.png This is a naming change only. If you have been using Templot for 00-SF there will be no change to your files or designs.I'm hoping to have a Templot program update available in the next few days.I have also registered the domain 4-sf.uk and I will be copying the content from 00-sf.org.ukshortly.regards,Martin.

If you have decided to change the name what about calling it 16.2-SF.

Wonder about the name though. 4-SF to me doesn't sit easily. Would SF4 be an acceptable alternative? Or would it be too close to S4? Maybe drop the dash and use 4SF?

It's your ball, but I must admit to firmly favour the term 00-SF

Hi Martin,

It's your ball, but I must admit to firmly favour the term 00-SF (though 16.2-SF has some merit).  I struggle a little with the term 4-SF; I suspect that for some time to come there will be many posts asking why 00-SF isn't catered for by Templot ;)
Something that might be worth considering is the fact that if anyone were to contemplate "4-SF" (unaware of it's previous designation) will find very little via a Google Search.  Whereas a search for 00-SF will find plenty....

All the best,
Brian
(polybear)

p.s. My Templot application loaded up this morning with "00-SF" still showing in in the Gauge/Scale selector, in protest...

Hi Martin,

It's your ball, but I must admit to firmly favour the term 00-SF (though 16.2-SF has some merit).  I struggle a little with the term 4-SF; I suspect that for some time to come there will be many posts asking why 00-SF isn't catered for by Templot ;)
Something that might be worth considering is the fact that if anyone were to contemplate "4-SF" (unaware of it's previous designation) will find very little via a Google Search.  Whereas a search for 00-SF will find plenty....

All the best,
Brian
(polybear)

p.s. My Templot application loaded up this morning with "00-SF" still showing in in the Gauge/Scale selector, in protest...

Hi Dave,
If I ever draw up some 4-SF Gauges I'll be quite happy to release them. However, such an event is unlikely since I only model in 00-SF.
Nice try Though!

00 is primarily a Scale not a gauge, it was created to allow more room in small bodied british outline steam locos for the then electric motors of the day. H0 track was used because thats all there was at the time

madscientist wrote:

00 is primarily a Scale not a gauge, it was created to allow more room in small bodied british outline steam locos for the then electric motors of the day. H0 track was used because thats all there was at the time

This only indirectly impacts on the discussion, but lets kill off once and for all the myth that 00 came about in order to fit motors into small bodied British locomotives. Motor technology was well advanced in those days; players such as Hornby made their own motors and could easily have designed ones to fit into HO British locomotives.

George Mellor, who was heavily involved in the decisions, wrote an article which made things clear. It was believed, quite understandably, that to manufacture succesful toy trains, which needed to run on clip together small-radius track often laid on carpets and similar, using anything like scale wheels were a total no go. Hence thicker wheels with deeper flanges were used. The problem which then arises is the British loading gauge, which on the prototype forces tight clearances between wheels and outside valve gear, and wheels and splashers, to give just two examples. The proposed wheels simply wouldn't work if the scale was right for the track. So they increased the scale.  Which is why commercial toy models of British locomotives in ALL scales use underscale track.

To return to the discussion, OO isn't primarily a scale. It is a scale/gauge combination, in the same way that EM and P4 are scale/gauge combinations.

Cheers
Nigel

Sorry you are suggesting it's not possible to produce H0 models of British locomotives !!!!

madscientist wrote:

Sorry you are suggesting it's not possible to produce H0 models of British locomotives !!!!

Unfortunately, yes that is the case. At least if you want them to be the correct scale-width models. All H0 models are overscale width on axleboxes, bogie sideframes, etc., to accommodate the daft arrangement of having overscale wheels on an exact-scale track

Best not to deal in absolutes. As there isn't any RTR british HO currently available and what was is decades out of date, why would it have to have over scale wheels. It would be niche anyway so why not RTR HO to proto87 standards?

but impossible it certainly isn't (as you claimed

4-sf implies to me some sort of super fine version of p4. Why not KISS and just call it 16.2mm gauge?

Thinking about it further I thought that keeping the 00 was essential as the 4 won't mean a lot to your potential market.

You are selling an idea though, even if you don't charge for it. Otherwise why register a domain name for it?

The web page is simply to provide information about it. A reader can then choose whether to adopt it, or even take the slightest notice of it, for himself.

More than 15 years ago, when I included the "EM minus 2" gauge/scale setting in Templot, I gave it the shorter designation "00-SF".

At the time that seemed entirely reasonable, because it is intended that 00 models should run on it.

But with the benefit of hindsight it was clearly a big mistake. I believe the reference to 00 has been a primary cause of all the argument and contention over the years.

I don't think I can go on over and over again explaining 00-SF forever. The final straw has come today with a post on RMweb muddying the water with suggestions of using 16.2mm crossings on a 16.5mm layout, and building variable-gauge pointwork. That strikes me as a recipe for disaster in the long term.

00-SF is not 00. It is a variant of EM. It is a standard in its own right with a track gauge is 16.2mm. Everywhere -- except where gauge-widened on sharp curves in prototypical fashion. (Some users like to use 16.5mm flexi-track for that.)

As the inventor of the "00-SF" designation I can uninvent it. And I have now done so. I have changed the designation to 4-SF in Templot:

2_241216_180000000.png

This is a naming change only. If you have been using Templot for 00-SF there will be no change to your files or designs.

I'm hoping to have a Templot program update available in the next few days.

I have also registered the domain 4-sf.uk and I will be copying the content from 00-sf.org.uk shortly.

regards,

Martin.