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topic: 2745Made some progress - still need help
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posted: posted: 24 Sep 2015 17:09

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rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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Hi,
I have almost finished adding track and turnouts to my planned layout of Faringdon but I'm not sure if I have done it right and I still have a couple of areas where I need some help please.
I have attached my box file and I'll send the bgs and sk81 files along right after this.
Please can someone take a look at my work and assist with the following:
a)  Have I used the correct templates and is more work required to make them all join up correctly?
b)  I cannot see how to add a three-way to TL042 and I'm not sure TL046 is correct.
c)  I cannot see how to create the two catch points I need
Any other input is much appreciated, I plan on using C&L Flexitrack and their matching turnout kits so any advice on this would also be appreciated
Many thanks
David
Attachment: attach_2162_2745_Faringdon.box     276
Last edited on 24 Sep 2015 17:11 by rynd2it
24 Sep 2015 17:09

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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BGS file attached
Attachment: attach_2163_2745_Faringdon.bgs     269

posted: 24 Sep 2015 17:10

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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sk81 file
Attachment: attach_2164_2745_Faringdon.sk81     291

posted: 24 Sep 2015 20:56

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Hello rynd2it,

You can't make a tandem (three way) turnout automatically- which I imagine is due to the pretty much limitless ways in which one can be designed.

Can I recommend having a look at this page?

http://www.templot.com/martweb/video_list.htm

Near the bottom there is a tutorial for making a tandem. I have watched it and can now make one. It isn't that easy at first, but gets easier with some practice.

Catch/trap points are very easy to do, taking seconds.

Place a turnout on the screen
DO> SNAP TO CATCH POINTS

If your trap/catch has only one blade then:
DO> OMIT RAILS AND JOINT MARKS (CTRL O)
Turnout road crossing rail - untick box (assuming this is the rail that you don't want, which is most common).

I am using C&L components too and I thoroughly recommend them. Though I am using plywood rather than plastic, so opted not to use flexi for the plain track.

I can't comment on your other questions as I wouldn't like to give you incorrect information, but it looks good to me. Though TL046 is sitting on top (or underneath) a piece of plain track- you might like to shorten or remove the track.

Best of luck,Derek

posted: 24 Sep 2015 21:17

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi David,

More about catch points, including a video, here:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?catch_points.htm

And before someone yet again :) posts that they are trap points, not catch points, the term "trap" refers to their function -- the physical object is called a catch point (with 1 blade) or catch points (with 2 blades). Trap points can be implemented as catch points, or as full turnouts, or sometimes more complex arrangements such as a double slip, sand drags, etc.

I have been making some dialog changes in the make transition function, and I'm hoping to upload a program update in the next few days. I don't want to reply to your other matters until I have done that, otherwise my reply will become instantly out of date.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 25 Sep 2015 08:53

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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Hi Derek,
Thanks for all that - I did watch the video on the three-way and got lost after about 15 seconds!
I'll try the catch points soon (when I get a "round 2 it)
Regards
David

posted: 25 Sep 2015 08:54

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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Thanks Martin,
I'll check out that video and I look forward to your other comments later. No rush, this is a long-term project
David
Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi David,

More about catch points, including a video, here:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?catch_points.htm

And before someone yet again :) posts that they are trap points, not catch points, the term "trap" refers to their function -- the physical object is called a catch point (with 1 blade) or catch points (with 2 blades). Trap points can be implemented as catch points, or as full turnouts, or sometimes more complex arrangements such as a double slip, sand drags, etc.

I have been making some dialog changes in the make transition function, and I'm hoping to upload a program update in the next few days. I don't want to reply to your other matters until I have done that, otherwise my reply will become instantly out of date.

regards,

Martin.


posted: 28 Sep 2015 17:49

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Hello David

If you have two computers at home, I can thoroughly recommend having one running Templot and one running Martin's tutorial.

I couldn't do tandems for love nor money and then one day "ping" the light bulb came on and I realised what I was doing wrong. Ironically, not having made one for some time I've somewhat forgotten the trick to getting part 3 to line up... I will be watching the video.

If you can do it with 2 computers, you will find it much easier. If not- try watching the video through a couple of times and then leaving it for a day or two and then going back through it again using pause at key points.


As for terminology- I was told that a catch point is something that a trailing "part-turnout" designed to catch part of a non-continuous brake if it broke away and ran backwards. A trap being a facing one designed to deflect a train away from a running line.

It seems to be if you ask driver/signalman/platelayer/genius software developer they all have different names for different things.

posted: 28 Sep 2015 18:29

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Hello,

Dual monitor setups work well for working with the tutorials/videos. Run them on the smaller monitor and load up Templot on your main screen. Many PC's have an output for a second monitor but if not a graphics card is usually easy to install.

Rob


posted: 28 Sep 2015 21:33

from:

madscientist
 
 

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As for terminology- I was told that a catch point is something that a trailing "part-turnout" designed to catch part of a non-continuous brake if it broke away and ran backwards. A trap being a facing one designed to deflect a train away from a running line.

Me too

As in
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_points
And here
http://www.railwayforum.net/showthread.php?t=2784

And perhaps from the horses mouth
http://www.safety.networkrail.co.uk/Services/Jargon-Buster/C/CA-CE/Catch-Points
And
http://www.safety.networkrail.co.uk/Services/Jargon-Buster/T/TP-TT/Trap-Points
Last edited on 28 Sep 2015 21:39 by madscientist
posted: 28 Sep 2015 21:51

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Let's not go into all that yet again. We have done it to death several times already.

The physical object is called a set of catch points. It is labelled as such on the permanent-way engineering manufacturing drawings.

It can be used as "trap points" to protect passenger lines from runaway vehicles on adjacent goods lines. Other permanent-way components can also be used as "trap points". For example full turnouts, turnouts with over-the-top crossings, slips, derailers, sand drags, spurs, etc.

The vast majority of railwaymen are not permanent-way engineers so do not need to know the names of the p.w. components, only their operational function, and therefore refer to them as "trap points".

But Templot is about permanent-way, so in Templot this component is a set of catch points.

Martin.

posted: 29 Sep 2015 02:23

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin

No disrespect or argument intended. Happy to be corrected.

posted: 29 Sep 2015 08:16

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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Hi Derek,
I actually do have two computers (not set up but do-able) however I think my level of personal understanding of the why's & wherefore's of track planning is the underlying problem. I have watched the video a couple of times and I found myself asking "OK but why?" as each action unfolded. A commentary or a script for this video would be a great help. But as Martin is redoing the video anyway I guess we'll have to wait for that luxury  :D
I will soldier on - I only need one three-way on this layout and I'm a long way from any start date for building.
Thanks to all
David
DerekStuart wrote:
Hello David

If you have two computers at home, I can thoroughly recommend having one running Templot and one running Martin's tutorial.

I couldn't do tandems for love nor money and then one day "ping" the light bulb came on and I realised what I was doing wrong. Ironically, not having made one for some time I've somewhat forgotten the trick to getting part 3 to line up... I will be watching the video.

If you can do it with 2 computers, you will find it much easier. If not- try watching the video through a couple of times and then leaving it for a day or two and then going back through it again using pause at key points.


posted: 29 Sep 2015 08:55

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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DerekStuart wrote:
No disrespect or argument intended. Happy to be corrected.
Hi Derek,

??? I didn't know we were having an argument? :?

Here are some trap points at Castle Cary:

Castle_Cary_catch_points_-_01.jpgCastle_Cary_catch_points_-_01.jpg
linked from http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/pugsley_d449/

You can see that it is certainly acting as a trap. But it isn't using a set of catch points to provide that function. It is a turnout with an over-the-top V-crossing -- the single wing rail is ramped up* to carry the wheel over the running rail. The opposite stock rail stops short. The effect is to dump the offending vehicle into the dirt away from the running line.

It would be a brave passenger to stand on the footbridge while shunting was taking place. :)

Judging by the condition of the footbridge, the trap has never been used in anger -- like the vast majority of traps across the network.

*done by inserting packing blocks under the baseplates. Here's another view of that. Notice that the check rail is similarly ramped up, and extends beyond the end of the running rail -- not something seen often. See also that someone has been doing some timber shoving in the foreground -- the timber is skewed out of square:

2_290349_240000000.jpg2_290349_240000000.jpg 

From Wikimedia Creative Commons -- more pics:

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Catch_and_trap_pointsregards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Sep 2015 09:09

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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Thanks Matrin - that picture is worth a thousand words. Given it is GWR it would be a reasonable assumption that a similar design was in use at Faringdon. Now all I need is a picture of a GWR tandem :)

posted: 29 Sep 2015 14:07

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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rynd2it wrote:
that picture is worth a thousand words. Given it is GWR it would be a reasonable assumption that a similar design was in use at Faringdon.
Hi David,

That picture is a modern Network Rail installation in flat-bottom rail, it's not GWR.

There is a whole chapter on GWR catch points and several drawings of catch points (labelled as such :) ) in this book:

cvr_track_400px.jpgcvr_track_400px.jpg

Available from: http://gwsg.org.uk/GWSG_Publications.html

Strongly recommended if you want to get GWR track details just right, regardless of your modelling scale.

(And lots of useful info for everyone else.)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Sep 2015 14:35

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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Thanks again, never noticed the FB rail.

posted: 29 Sep 2015 22:11

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
DerekStuart wrote:
No disrespect or argument intended. Happy to be corrected.
Hi Derek,

??? I didn't know we were having an argument? :?

regards,

Martin.
Hello Martin
After some of the cr*p you have had to put up with recently in other forums I just wanted to make sure it didn't come across that I was contradicting you.
Without giving you such a large head that you couldn't get through the arches of Kings Cross  trainshed, I think most people recognise you as the pre-eminent source of facts in such matters.
Derek

posted: 29 Sep 2015 22:33

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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DerekStuart wrote:
After some of the cr*p you have had to put up with recently in other forums I just wanted to make sure it didn't come across that I was contradicting you.
Hi Derek,

But I like being contradicted! Where's the brain food in being agreed with? :)

I don't feel that I have had to put up with anything? I enjoy lively discussions -- it is all only words, no blood on the tracks.

Thanks for the kind words.

best regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Sep 2015 23:29

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Hi David

As well as Martin's book suggestion, I can recommend typing things like "track" and "turnout" into google and looking at the pictures it offers.

Here's a good place to look as well
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/160-handbuilt-track-templot/

And you can find questions, answers and photos of real track here on Templot
http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_forum.php?id=11

I have learned an awful lot from this Templot site, and RMW.

One other thing- save your work, open a fresh trackpad in Templot, stick a few bits and pieces on it and then play about with the menu options to see what each one does. I don't think it's possible to break it by doing so. Contrary to what a few loud mouths might have you believe, it is very intuitive and if you follow its guidance you will produce prototypical designs.

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, btw.
Derek
Last edited on 29 Sep 2015 23:30 by DerekStuart
posted: 30 Sep 2015 09:15

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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No, not stating the obvious Derek, when I get some time I will do more experiments. As with all powerful software it takes time to learn how it works.

Now all I need is time :)

David

posted: 30 Sep 2015 12:34

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Hi David

I don't know if you have yet found the PEG and NOTCH tool. IMO to unlock 90% of what Templot can do, you must understand how this works. But apologies if you have already found this.

PEG: It is the red crosshair
NOTCH: It is the white square

Put down a turnout (a B8) and you should see the PEG at the toe (the sharp end). Firstly go to the GEOMETRY menu and have a look at the bottom two options PEG POSITIONS and PEG ON LINE OR RAIL. Select different options and see what it does. Now press CTRL-0,CTRL-1 ... CTRL-9 and see what it does with the PEG.

Now, press CTRL-0 to put the PEG back to the TOE.

Right click your mouse and PEG OPTIONS>>PUT NOTCH UNDER PEG and you will see the white square (NOTCH) appear around the PEG.

Now right click and STORE & BACKGROUND

Now put down a B6 turnout. Again press CTRL-0 to put the PEG at the TOE.

Right click PEG OPTIONS>> SHIFT ONTO NOTCH and you will see that your two turnouts are superimposed.

No if you press CTRL-F6 and move your mouse left and right you will see the B6 turnout slide along the B8.

Congratulations, you are now part of the way to building a tandem and other complex track formations. I hope that helps, but apologies if I'm teaching grannny....

DISCLAIMER: I am only a student of Templotology myself and advice is given in good faith. I cannot be held responsible for loss of sanity, hair, temper or PC screens.

No fishplates, catch points, point rods or checkrails were harmed in the making of this post.
Last edited on 30 Sep 2015 12:35 by DerekStuart
posted: 30 Sep 2015 12:44

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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Great stuff, Thanks

posted: 30 Sep 2015 13:00

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Martin,
No you don't!
(with apologies to anyone who hasn't learned of the word 'irony')
Martin Wynne wrote:
But I like being contradicted! 

posted: 30 Sep 2015 13:16

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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DerekStuart wrote:
I don't know if you have yet found the PEG and NOTCH tool. IMO to unlock 90% of what Templot can do, you must understand how this works. But apologies if you have already found this
Hi David, Derek,

Well yes and no. Certainly the peg and notch functions provide the essential low-level controls to build complex formations.

But beginners don't really need to get involved at that level until they have become more experienced users. Of course beginners don't usually attempt tandem turnouts.

As an alternative to your suggested method, you can simply click on the background template and then click the peg/align tools > align the control template over background template > facing-facing menu item on the menu for the background template which appears on the left.

Or in most versions of Windows, after clicking the background template you can simply press P A F on the keyboard, as shown on the menu.

A dialog will appear afterwards, which for a tandem turnout you should click the yellow bar to leave the background template unchanged.

There is a lot of advice about creating tandem turnouts in this topic:

 topic 2394 - message 16119

Unfortunately tandem turnouts are not straightforward, and you do need to be reasonably confident with Templot to produce a usable result.

I know a proper up-to-date video for tandems is long overdue, and I do intend to produce one soon. Unfortunately at my rate of working it will be several full days work, it's not something I can dash off quickly in a reply like this.

Before doing a tandem you might like to do a single slip. Not because you need one, but because

1. it would be good practice in using Templot.

2. it is a lot easier than a tandem.

3. there is an up-to-date video available in several formats which you can watch.

Go to help > watch a video > single slip menu item, or go to:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?add_slip_roads.htm

I'm intending to use the same format for the tandem video. But really I should be producing one as a new beginners guide first.

I'm making a few menu changes in the next program update, so I need to get that finished first, otherwise the videos will be out-of-date within weeks.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 1 Oct 2015 15:32

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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David

I cannot help you on the building side, but I can share my experience and thoughts on the building side.

If using C&L turnout kits, do ask for the thicker (1.6 mm) timbers. The reason being is that when the solvent dries fully the plastic tends to curl upwards slightly, which could cause gauge narrowing. The thicker timbers do not suffer from this problem. Better still in my opinion are the use of the Exactoscale timber fret, you get slightly longer timbers and 62 timbers (enough to make slightly over 2 medium size turnouts).

If you have not bought any track I would suggest that you have a look at the Exactoscale fast track bases, these have the same thickness of sleepers (1.6 mm) and therefore far more robust. I would recommend a weaker solvent that Butanone on plastic timbers, which may reduce the curl effect

There is a second option where you can use the Exactoscale parts (also from C&L). It has been said by some the chairs are a bit crisper, you can use the additional special chairs for the switch rail, common crossing and check chairs, bridge chairs are also available and most can be used without modification.

This will mean buying parts rather than kits, but with kits being in the region of £48 each (bulk discount is available) the separate parts are about £10 to £12 per turnout. One problem for the novice builder are the common crossings, these can be brought separately (you could ask is there is a discount for a bulk buy), as can the switch rails though these are quite easy to make from plain rail.

Just a few thoughts, but the Exactoscale products is what I have advised my club to use, which we have now bought

Hope these thoughts may be of use

posted: 1 Oct 2015 16:30

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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Thanks, all useful data

posted: 1 Oct 2015 17:29

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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David
Can I add to Mr H's comments?

I would recommend a CL kit for your first go- in honesty, I would not plan to use it on a layout unless you are really good or lucky.

I would also recommend ply timbers (1.6mm thick) with plastic chairs- but as John says, go for Exactoscale ones not CL, especially if using plywood as you need a bit of pressure and the CL ones can deform a little.

If you are planning to move onto making your own completely- ie your own vees and switch blades, then there are lots of tutorials. I learned a lot from Mr H's RMW thread.

To give you an idea, I built a CL kit and it looked ok-ish, and worked. I then built one from scratch and had to replace the vee 2 or 3 times before I was happy. The next couple worked fine and looked ok. Then I made the mistake of trying to get them more detailed, with prototypical knuckle curvature and now I'm back to wheels dropping in the gap.

But each one gets me one step closer to getting it right- there are some lucky types who get it right first time (or do what works rather than what looks right+works).

There's lots of help available at all points.
Derek

posted: 1 Oct 2015 18:01

from:

rynd2it
 
Chabanais 16 - France

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Thanks again guys, long way off construction (probably have to convert the garage first)
Cheers
David

posted: 2 Oct 2015 06:43

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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We thought a bit about using ply sleepers on the club layout, nothing wrong with the adhesion of plastic chairs to ply as a whole even though individually you can easily release the chair from the timber.

But as plastic plain track has been chosen it seemed logical to use plastic timbers as both will be painted to match each other, also the bond of chair to timber/sleeper is far stronger.

The idea of a C&L (full rather than basic) kit is that the builder can easily make a fully working turnout, as the common crossing and slide rails are pre made



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