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topic: 2781Advice for a virgin trackbuilder!
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posted: 9 Nov 2015 22:11

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Hello everyone
I have decided to build my own turnouts on my proposed 4mm OO-SF LMS (MR) layout  with plywood sleepers and pcb under the vee (frog).

I am totally new to this and nobody nearby (in Denmark) builds track!

I have spent the last months getting to know Templot, and have now decided that the time has come to take the plunge and actually build something!

Here is the plan for the turnout I am going to try:

3033_091632_110000000.jpg3033_091632_110000000.jpg

There are all sorts of challenges with it for someone like me. For a start, there's a slight curve, and also the turnout worked best as a B-6.75. I have bought jigs from scalefour, but they only do the whole numbers. I am hoping I can file a size 7 and then file it to fit. It's not that I am really concerned about - no doubt I will be when I make it!

The questions I'd most like help with are these:
1. Is the pcb/plywood construction combo in any way sensible? I've arrived at it because with plywood I can use proper chairs but with pcb under the vee I can fix this solidly (also I can't work out what chairs I would use to hold the vee). I realise that this might give me height problems on the un-chaired pcb, so the plywood sleepers are1.5mm thick and the pcb 1.6

2. What chairs do I need to fix the check rails in place? I have already bought slide and normal Midland 4-blot chairs from c+l , but am confused about how to fix the all important check rails. Do they sell the required chairs?

3. Is it not necessary to cut through and isolate the wing rails and give them the same polarity as the vee to avoid shorting? Or can you just allow the contact at the switch to provide current to the appropriate wing rail? I had assumed you would need dropper wires?

4. What else have I overlooked???

As I'm writing this I'm thinking that a redraw to make a more normal A-5, B-6 or B-7 turnout might make things easier for me, but the questions are still valid!

I'd be very grateful for any advice! I have the necessary roller gauges, etc, but as I said, I have never ventured away from peco before, and this is a step into the exciting unknown!



posted: 9 Nov 2015 22:55

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Jubliee42

Welcome to track building, you can use chairs on copperclad timbers providing you lift the rail by 0.5 mm. Either shim from the fret of an etched kit or C&L sell 0.5 mm copperclad strip. Once soldered to the timbers and rail grind the shim/copperclad flush to the rail sides

Check rails can either be cut up 4 bolt chairs, or use the 0.8mm Exactoscale check chairs, various methods used on my workbench http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57911-hayfields-turnout-workbench/

Gauges you will need the check rail gauge and some 1 mm thick shim as a wing rail gauge

If you have the Vee filing jigs then for a first time I would go for one of the whole numbers, of file it to the next whole number and fill the resulting gaps with solder (not recommended)

posted: 10 Nov 2015 18:54

from:

polybear
 
 

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Hayfield wrote:
Jubliee42

Welcome to track building, you can use chairs on copperclad timbers providing you lift the rail by 0.5 mm. Either shim from the fret of an etched kit or C&L sell 0.5 mm copperclad strip. Once soldered to the timbers and rail grind the shim/copperclad flush to the rail sides

Hi,
Another way to raise the rail off the surface of copperclad timbers is to use vero pins - my post #77 here shows the method I used to try out this option:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69145-attention-00-sf-track-builders/page-4

HTH
Brian

posted: 11 Nov 2015 13:18

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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If I may suggest an alternative, I would recommend using ply timbers throughout and avoiding copper clad. There is nothing wrong with a composite build as favoured by Mr Hayfield (and he is far in advance of my own track building skills), but you will never get copper clad looking as much like wood as real wood would.

You can buy ready made common crossing (frog) from C&L and use normal plastic chairs to secure the tails and use cosmetic/ decorative chairs for the rest of the crossing.

If you are going to build your own crossing, then you use narrow metal strip- .5mm thick by 1.5 or 2.mm wide nickel silver to hold the vee to the wing rails. When finished you cannot see the metal strip- and if you did it would just look like part of the spacer blocks used on the prototype.


Check rails: C&L have two types- one with a .68mm gap and one with a .8mm gap. I think for 00sf/4sf you need a 1mm gap (?). The best option is to use the check rail chairs and cut them in half and then use a gauge to space the check rail.

Some people will advise using standard (S1) chairs for the check rail on the basis of alternating between the stock rail and the check rail, with cosmetic 'half' chairs to fill in the gaps. However, this will have the wrong chair detail as check rail chairs are always 4 bolts.

EDIT: See Martin's comment below.

My advice is to try composite, ply and even plastic if you like and see which you get on best with. I know composite build is popular, but I think if you're going to use ply- stick with ply.

Good luck.
Last edited on 11 Nov 2015 16:50 by DerekStuart
posted: 11 Nov 2015 13:45

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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DerekStuart wrote:
check rail chairs are always 4 bolts.
Hi Derek,

Never say "always". :)

GWR check chairs have 2 screws:

2_110834_520000000.jpg2_110834_520000000.jpg

GWR check chair drawings here:

 http://scalefour.org/downloads/gwrtracknotes/R1782.pdf

And they are not bolts. :)

On most companies they are chair screws. GWR chairs have through-bolts from below on plain-track sleepers, and chair screws from above on pointwork timbers, as above.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 11 Nov 2015 15:30

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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DerekStuart wrote:
If I may suggest an alternative, I would recommend using ply timbers throughout and avoiding copper clad.
For much the same reasons I used plastic sleepers throughout on my 3mm scale layout. No problems to date. Plastic chairs will bond quite happily to ply or plastic sleepers, and I find them easily strong enough. And it makes building track a fair amount simpler. If you need to make an alteration, a sharp blade slid between chair and sleeper is enough to break the bond.

Nigel

posted: 11 Nov 2015 17:12

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin
Thanks for correcting that point. As the old saying goes, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." In terms of the OP comment about this being LMS/MR I believe I am correct for that region, but I should have qualified it as such.
Martin Wynne wrote:
DerekStuart wrote:
check rail chairs are always 4 bolts.
Hi Derek,

Never say "always". :)

GWR check chairs have 2 screws:

GWR check chair drawings here:

 http://scalefour.org/downloads/gwrtracknotes/R1782.pdf

And they are not bolts. :)

On most companies they are chair screws. GWR chairs have through-bolts from below on plain-track sleepers, and chair screws from above on pointwork timbers, as above.

regards,

Martin.


posted: 11 Nov 2015 23:12

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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DerekStuart wrote:
If I may suggest an alternative, I would recommend using ply timbers throughout and avoiding copper clad. There is nothing wrong with a composite build as favoured by Mr Hayfield (and he is far in advance of my own track building skills), but you will never get copper clad looking as much like wood as real wood would.
At the moment I am building a B8 using ply sleepers, I make the common crossings as separate free standing units and use C&L 0.6 mm double sided copperclad strip to hold all together, for a novice it may be easier to use the composite method 

If you are going to build your own crossing, then you use narrow metal strip- .5mm thick by 1.5 or 2.mm wide nickel silver to hold the vee to the wing rails. When finished you cannot see the metal strip- and if you did it would just look like part of the spacer blocks used on the prototype.

If you have metal shim in the bits box use it, thin copperclad is a bit easier to file flush but costs

Check rails: C&L have two types- one with a .68mm gap and one with a .8mm gap. I think for 00sf/4sf you need a 1mm gap (?). The best option is to use the check rail chairs and cut them in half and then use a gauge to space the check rail.
Do cut through the 0.8 mm check chairs when you slide them back in place, the gap is more or less 1 mm, but do use a check rail gauge to fit and fit the uncut part of the check chair alternatively to the stock rail then the check rail


Some people will advise using standard (S1) chairs for the check rail on the basis of alternating between the stock rail and the check rail, with cosmetic 'half' chairs to fill in the gaps. However, this will have the wrong chair detail as check rail chairs are always 4 bolts.
Whilst at both ends you use a selection of whole standard and bridge chairs which will hold the common crossing in place the common crossing chair halves do actually hold the crossing in place as well


EDIT: See Martin's comment below.

My advice is to try composite, ply and even plastic if you like and see which you get on best with. I know composite build is popular, but I think if you're going to use ply- stick with ply.

Good luck.
As Martin has said the best method is the one you can use, unless your plain track is ply there is no problem using the composite method and it is certainly easier to make. Most of all just take your time and enjoy the process, and don't be afraid to ask questions

posted: 11 Nov 2015 23:52

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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John
I wasn't impugning your composite method, just suggesting a fully ply version as an alternative. As I noted above, your skills are somewhat in advance of my own. But personally, I cannot see the worth of going to the 'trouble' of using ply timbering to then have not-ply timbering for the crossing.

You wrote about using bridge and standard chairs on the crossing- I presume you mean the closure side of the knuckle, rather than around the wing rails or vee? I tried that idea before and it works really well- the only soldering required is the two rails forming the vee- but if you do that you can't have the correct pattern chairs (as far as I can see).

posted: 12 Nov 2015 07:29

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Derek

I totally agree with you, ply looks best especially if used with hand built plain track, it is also easier to adjust ply built track, if left 24 hours to dry out thoroughly you can get a blade under a chair to lift it off without damaging it. Do use Butanone or equivalent as you need an aggressive solvent to melt the chair into the grain of the ply

For the novice the common thought is that soldered construction is the easiest method, so for most novices wishing for chaired track (especially if using ready to lay plain plastic track) the composite method will be the best starter method. For accomplished modellers building the common crossings as separate units should be achievable

I use to be one who thought track building could be done by everyone, if they put their minds to it, I have been proved wrong though. What is simple for some is impossible for others.

The combination of bridge and standard chairs vary depending on which crossing angle you are using. Special chairs normally use the X, Y, A, B, C and sometimes D & E, and not always in pairs. Bridge chairs are used when 2 standard chairs are too big for the gap. The plans which come with the Exactoscale Turnout kits sometimes vary from the C&L Exactoscale crossing instructions, so sometimes its a bit trial and error. Both closure and exit sides are affected.

posted: 12 Nov 2015 14:37

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Due to a damaged wing rail on a club layout, where the turnout was constructed using ply timbers and C & L plastic chairs I decided the only way to re-fix the wing rail and also get electrical continuity was drill the timbers & baseboard at each end of the rail slightly under the size of brass lace making pins and gently tap the pins right the way through until the head of the pin was at the same height as the crotch of a plastic chair. I then soldered the errant wing rail to the pin heads and made good with cosmetic plastic chairs. On completion the board was stood on edge the pins trimmed back and a couple of bits of wire soldered to the pins and the feed to the "V".

In future I think I will use this method to form all my nose assemblies as I will be able to drill all the holes using the Templot template.

Cheers Phil

posted: 12 Nov 2015 16:45

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Hi John
As you know I have read your blog in 'the other place' from end to end several times over, and recommend to any new starter (including Mr Jubilee42) doing the same.

One thing that I think we all agree on is to try each different method and each of us will find one that works best for us. For example, I have now tried building it in sections (switch, closure, crossing- all rails separate as per the prototype, where appropriate) and now built out of as few rails as possible with cuts going in later on. Each has its merits.

I think everyone CAN make track, but it is who WANTS to. Everyone would like the bits to fall into place, but not everyone wants to make all the effort.

Crossing chairs: What I mean is you cannot (to my knowledge) use half chairs around the common crossing and keep it prototypical- although I did use the .68 check rail chair to hold the wings to the vee and it worked (just looked wrong).

Re exactoscale/C&L plans: for the benefit of Jubilee42, can I repeat a comment Martin made that the exactoscale plans contain some slight non-prototypical features for the aid of construction, that might not match up with Templot.

(That wasn't his exact wording but no doubt he will correct me if I am materially wrong)

posted: 12 Nov 2015 18:10

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Hayfield wrote:
I use to be one who thought track building could be done by everyone, if they put their minds to it, I have been proved wrong though. What is simple for some is impossible for others.
Dear everyone
Thanks for the very valuable comments! I will keep you informed of which of Dereks catagories I fall in to. I like to think of myself as a fairly handy person and spent all of my teenage years building plastic Airfix kits, so hopefully I will succeed.

I have decided I think (pending good advice to the contrary) to use pcb timbers for all those under the crossing and the check rails. This is partly because C+L have sold out of 0.8mm check rail chairs. The pcb is 1.6mm thick,the plywood only 1.5, so I'm hoping the difference will partly help make up for the chairs raising the rails on the plywood sections.



posted: 12 Nov 2015 23:18

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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DerekStuart wrote:
Hi John
As you know I have read your blog in 'the other place' from end to end several times over, and recommend to any new starter (including Mr Jubilee42) doing the same.

One thing that I think we all agree on is to try each different method and each of us will find one that works best for us. For example, I have now tried building it in sections (switch, closure, crossing- all rails separate as per the prototype, where appropriate) and now built out of as few rails as possible with cuts going in later on. Each has its merits.
I totally agree with this, everyone is different and what works for one person does not necessarily work for another

I think everyone CAN make track, but it is who WANTS to. Everyone would like the bits to fall into place, but not everyone wants to make all the effort.
I thought that, but after seeing some interesting styles of building I would refine the everyone to most

Crossing chairs: What I mean is you cannot (to my knowledge) use half chairs around the common crossing and keep it prototypical- although I did use the .68 check rail chair to hold the wings to the vee and it worked (just looked wrong).
The main crossing chair that is hard to copy is the crossing nose chair, then the D chair, with the central block parts for the D 7 Y block chairs, though I made quite a good effort on a D (might have been an E) chair in 7 mm, just by trimming two close together. I do agree though its hard to replicate the crossing nose and block chairs

Re exactoscale/C&L plans: for the benefit of Jubilee42, can I repeat a comment Martin made that the exactoscale plans contain some slight non-prototypical features for the aid of construction, that might not match up with Templot.
Difficult to get 2 Exactoscale plans to match each other, they may be slightly altered for the benefit of kit assembly. I think a slight compromise is the order of the day

(That wasn't his exact wording but no doubt he will correct me if I am materially wrong)
Nice to see you are taking a keen interest in these components, been using some at the club tonight

posted: 12 Nov 2015 23:22

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Jubilee

I am sure you will be fine, do put a bit of shim under the rail on the copperclad timbers, as the chairs need the rail lifted up so they can fit into the rail web. without the shim the chairs will go up the rail too far and will not fit and possibly the wheels may bounce along the chair tops

posted: 12 Nov 2015 23:31

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Hayfield wrote:
Nice to see you are taking a keen interest in these components, been using some at the club tonight
Personally I would say that other than Templot, C&L/Exactoscale has done the most to revolutionise this hobby, especially under the stewardship of Peter.
I have just dug out my first built kit- a B7- and it uses half chairs. Whilst I am a big fan of the CL special chairs, you can still get a good representation with the half chairs (I say that fully aware that I've shot down my earlier argument for using them- but it's options to follow).

posted: 13 Nov 2015 12:45

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Personally , I remain wedded to soldered track , either coppeclad or JBS ( ply). I then use half chairs etc. I find this very useful for things like diamonds and more complex crossings, where I find some fettling may be required.

I agree ply looks best , but painted coppeclad , where some detail is scratched on and the insulation gaps are filled are very difficult to tell the difference. The main issue is the crazy price of copperclad these days and the supply difficulties from time to time

My next experiment is ply with veropins held in by a high temp adhesive that can withstand soldering temps , it means slightly quicker construction as I drill the veropin holes through the sleeper while every things is stuck down to the template
Last edited on 13 Nov 2015 12:49 by madscientist
posted: 13 Nov 2015 17:34

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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There are/have been some stunning layouts built using copperclad track construction, ET of this parish being one of them. Yes copperclad strip has increased in cost greatly over the last 12-15 years, being a couple of £'s a pack then, now nearer £15 a pack.

With the price increase chaired track is not that much dearer especially when ply timbers are used. I do marvel at the ply and rivet constructed turnouts and crossings, in the raw they are a piece of art work. Its a method which I have tried but cannot warm to the construction method for a few reasons

Copperclad construction does allow for adjustments to be made, however by using quality plans/templates coupled with gauges in most instances adjustments should not be needed. Using copperclad timbers in certain strategic places is a method I have used, and can see the benefits for those both new to track building and those who prefer to build in situ.

I would strongly recommend that the rails are lifted off the timbers (0.5 mm for 4 mm scale and 1 mm for 7 mm scale) so the timbers are all at the same height and the chairs can fit properly, shim from the fret of an etched kit can be used or 0.5 mm strip, but very thin copperclad (0.5 mm) strip is much easier to grind back flush to the rail sides to allow chairs to be fitted

I see no benefit in soldering rail to pins in ply sleepers other than at board ends. Butanone makes a very strong joint between chair and timber, the main benefit is it allows the rail to expand and contract, without breaking joints and whole chairs can be fitted which are far more robust than half chairs (especially when cleaning) rather than relying on half chairs

But each to their own, the most important thing is to use the method that is right for you

posted: 13 Nov 2015 22:12

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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The story so far:
Managed to make the rails for the vee without too many problems. I used a combination of card template and jig and was quite pleased with myself.
3033_131649_490000000.jpg3033_131649_490000000.jpg
Although the card looks the worse for wear the resulting rails got the angle exactly, despite the crossing being 6.75.

I tried then just for interest a height comparison between 1.6mm pcb, chaired 1.5mm ply, and smp flexi.
3033_131653_060000000.jpg3033_131653_060000000.jpg

As you can all see, there are some definite "height issues" there! The difference between the flexi and the ply I can resolve by raising the flexi a bit for a meter or so I would imagine. The difference between the ply and the pcb looks huge, and I'm not at all sure how to resolve it. (don't worry, the chairs are not glued, and the timber is also temporary while I wait for the ones I need from C+L).

To round off an evening that had started so promisingly, I thought I'd quickly solder the vee. With my new soldering iron (http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/60w-mains-lcd-solder-station-a55kj).

It was a disaster. I have only ever tried soldering wire before, but it normally goes fine, and I've soldered about 10 decoders into loco's without any problems. However, this demanded a lot more precision regarding alignment, and all I've ended up with is a lot of solder in a blob where the rails should join, and no matter what temperature setting I use on the iron and how long I wait, the solder won't melt. I am using 60/40 solder, but can't heat it up directly - I have to heat up the rail. And that doesn't seem to want to happen. I'm going to bed to be grumpy and will try again tomorrow. And hoping I will grow two extra hands during the night to help keep everything lined up.

posted: 13 Nov 2015 23:13

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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3033_131812_330000000.jpg3033_131812_330000000.jpg

posted: 14 Nov 2015 04:26

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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I had a fair bit of problem with soldering, but was helped by a good chap named Howard Bolton (often goes by the internet reference JFS- I think he's on this forum somewhere).

To flow properly solder needs a match between solder, flux and temperature. It also needs the surfaces to be clean.

Have you gone over the surface first with a burnishing brush or similar? Then use a flux- either liquid or paste- then choose a good solder.

I wouldn't use Maplin solder or flux. On Howard's advice, I went and bought both from C&L (Carrs) and immediately my soldering went from dreadful to pretty good.

I know how you must feel about a failed attempt, but I would lay a pint of Carlsberg on it that it's not your technique but inappropriate solder/flux.
PS you can get .8mm thick ply sleepers/timbers if you are planning to match up to flexi track- though I've no idea what thickness the copper clad timbers are.
Last edited on 14 Nov 2015 04:29 by DerekStuart
posted: 14 Nov 2015 08:15

from:

Paul Willis
 
 

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Hi,

I wouldn't normally just post links to other places, but soldering techniques is a question that comes up quite often on the Scalefour Society Forum, from people that are new to P4 modelling.

Rather than have folk spend a lot of time writing advice out that has already been given, I trust that people here will excuse me pointing at a couple of posts that should be helpful starters:

Basic principles of soldering

Howard shows how it's done

Although I must confess that I wouldn't hold a soldering iron like that!  Just like a pencil is how I do it...

The "Howard" named and pictured is the very same JFS referred to here :)

The other area that you may find lots of useful advice on various subjects is Starting in P4.  Almost all of the Scalefour Society Forum is viewable by non-members, should people be interested.

Oh, and there is also some bloke called Martin Wynne that posts very helpfully over there on track matters.  Thank you Martin!

Cheers
Paul Willis
Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman

posted: 14 Nov 2015 08:44

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,

There is nothing wrong with the soldering station from Maplin, except for the bit that is fitted to the iron!

Fortunately replacement sets including more useful shapes are readily available on Ebay at a very reasonable price just look for Hakko.

posted: 14 Nov 2015 13:25

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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A few comments about soldering technique.

(1) Don't take solder directly off the stick/wire. Cut off just the amount you think you'll need; that way you can avoid excess solder floating around the job. Veer towards underestimating what you need and cut more than one bit; if you have underestimated, you can easily pick up an extra piece to finish the job.

(2) Don't stint on the amount of flux you use. One of the main purposes of flux is to transmit heat quickly to the parts to be joined. If the solder hasn't quite reached where you want it to be then add more flux and reapply heat, rather than more solder, unless you really haven't used enough solder. I always use liquid flux rather than say paste because it will flow easily between the bits to be joined and in my experience leaves less residue.

(3) Use the right flux and solder for the job. For etched kits I invariably use Carr's 188 solder with Carr's Green Label flux. This solder flows beautifully, running along seams and the like without leaving any blobs. For joining etched parts it's great. Don't use it to fill gaps or where the solder itself needs inherent strength. It should be fine for soldered track unless you're in the habit of having excessive stress in the track. If the soldered parts will take water I scrub thoroughly with washing up liquid and an old toothbrush, then rinse, otherwise use cotton wool buds soaked in meths.

(4) Small bits of wood can be useful for keeping parts in place without burning fingers; I have a pack of cocktail sticks on hand for all sorts of jobs.

(5) I think the figures quoted for power needed are excessive; use the right stuff in the right way and you don't need that much power. I use two Antex XS 25 watt soldering irons, one with the standard bit which is fine for when you want a lot of heat, and one with the finest bit I could find for smaller trickier jobs; ideally I'd have a third iron with a a bit somewhere between. These are very neat irons which I find much easier to wield than the heftier jobs. I reckon these are suitable for any scale up to and including 4mm; 7mm etched kits might require something more powerful. I'm close to finishing the 3mm version of the Mallard Dukedog, as well as various Mitchell and Worseley Works kits, and these irons have done fine.

posted: 14 Nov 2015 13:26

from:

madscientist
 
 

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I see no benefit in soldering rail to pins in ply sleepers other than at board ends. Butanone makes a very strong joint between chair and timber, the main benefit is it allows the rail to expand and contract, without breaking joints and whole chairs can be fitted which are far more robust than half chairs (especially when cleaning) rather than relying on half chairs


For plain track I quite agree. But for turnouts, I find that one needs quite a bewildering array of special chairs , this is especially true of things like irregular diamonds. I find that soldering to pins and then cutting up chairs to " resemble " special turnout chairs is " adequate ".

It also produces a strong turnout and as I build on a work bench , that's important. I think for p4 , where a specific set of chairs exists , there are definitely arguments for all functional chaired turnouts, but elsewhere not so much

Dave

posted: 14 Nov 2015 14:42

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Mr Borg, I didn't say that there was anything wrong with the Maplin solder station as I have no experience of it either way. Though I prefer Antex equipment- more expensive, but built very well and will probably outlive all of us if looked after.

My concern is their solder and/ or flux. I never did find it any good- though I've no idea if it's down to the solder or the flux or both.

Nigel, I would beg to differ on your comment about iron power. It was pointed out to me by Howard- and by Paul Willis prior to that- that the use of a powerful soldering iron is better; you want to be able to melt solder quickly, not hold the iron in place for any longer than you need to.

Jubilee42, I fear that we are all in danger of bombarding you with so much information that you don't know which way to go- ask a simple question and get 20 answers and before long the conversation has turned into the merits of maplin solder.

Follow the links that Paul Willis has put up for Howard's tutorial. Howard has this knack of being able to clearly explaining things and you won't go wrong following his advice.

posted: 14 Nov 2015 14:58

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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DerekStuart wrote:
Nigel, I would beg to differ on your comment about iron power. It was pointed out to me by Howard- and by Paul Willis prior to that- that the use of a powerful soldering iron is better; you want to be able to melt solder quickly, not hold the iron in place for any longer than you need to.
Derek

Agree that you want to be able to melt solder quickly. The Antex XS irons will do that provided that you use good soldering techniques, in particular use enough flux, of the right type. I suspect a lot of people don't, and try to compensate by using more powerful irons.

Nigel

posted: 14 Nov 2015 15:35

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,

It's the supplied tip that is the wrong shape. I have an Antex 660TC as well but tend to use that more for delicate work. You basically need to use the largest tip that is suitable for the job in hand, smaller the tip the less heat it holds and the longer you need to dwell on it. When all else fails I get the the RSU plugged in but don't need that for track.

Solder and Flux, wouldn't use Maplins, there are better alternatives.

posted: 14 Nov 2015 16:50

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Thanks once again for all of the helpful comments. I have to say, Mr Paul Willis, that I joined the scalefour society in the spring mainly to be able to purchase the jigs from the stores. However I was quite taken aback by the friendly welcome I received! It was super, and the P4 layouts in the magazines are fabulous. The society seems to be populated by some real craftsmen. I hope at some stage to come along to an event, despite the geographical challenges. But I just though you should know the effect the warm and friendly welcome had on me. Thanks for the useful links too. As for the rest of you, thanks are due here too. I hadn't burnished the soldering area as recommended, or cut off small lengths of solder. I had used flux, but as a paste, as that is what I have. If I can get a break for my children I will have another go tonight. Thanks for your support. It really is very helpful, both practically and morally!

posted: 14 Nov 2015 19:14

from:

DerekStuart
 
United Kingdom

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Yes. Tesco's own brand margarine beats maplins solder I'd have thought.

Borg-Rail wrote:
Solder and Flux, wouldn't use Maplins, there are better alternatives.

posted: 14 Nov 2015 21:31

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello,

I agree with Borg-Rail about tips. A selection of packs of 10 on ebay work out at really good value:

 ebay link

Regards

posted: 15 Nov 2015 23:22

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Jubilee42

Great to see you having a go and getting plenty of advice on the soldering front. I have found that you need several sizes of soldering tips, smaller tips for delicate work and bigger ones where heat is needed due to the size of the work, chisel ones offer a larger heating surface than the round ones. I use 2 types of solder, low melt for whitemetal and what I call normal (60-40 22swg)for everything else. cars red flux has become my flux of choice, I do have solder paint which is useful for certain jobs. Do keep the tip clean, clean tips are hotter and I use water on a sponge rather than abrasives that damage the coating on the tip. I just use standard Antex 25 watt iron

As for timbers, if you but copperclad timbers the same thickness as the wooden ones you will not have a problem, and as I said earlier, use some thin shim or copperclad between the timber and rail so you can fit chairs easily, failing that glue card under the copperclad timbers to bring their height up.

For our new club layout I am using Exactoscale fast track bases along with the Exactoscale plastic turnout timbers, both of which are 1.6 mm thick. I build the common crossings on 0.5 mm copperclad strip so I can fit plastic common crossing chairs to the sides, though as I said it may be easier to solder the common crossing insitu on to copperclad timbers, though I would always raise up the rail from the timber, looks neater and allows the chairs (half) to work.

Keep up the good work though good to see someone making trackwork

posted: 16 Nov 2015 18:31

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Hayfield wrote:
Jubilee

I am sure you will be fine, do put a bit of shim under the rail on the copperclad timbers, as the chairs need the rail lifted up so they can fit into the rail web. without the shim the chairs will go up the rail too far and will not fit and possibly the wheels may bounce along the chair tops
Thanks! I have taken your advice, and have bought a sheet of 0.5mm copper for cutting up into tiny bits. I had a look at the 0.8mm ply sleepers, but that would give qutie a height difference with the pcb, and would be had to hide, I think. So raised pcb and cosmetic chairs it will b for the crossing and check rail area!

posted: 16 Nov 2015 18:38

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Captains log supplemental:
After reading your posts (thanks) and doing a bit more thinking I decided to make a jig to build the crossing in. I was trying to hold too much an just getting cross. Here it is:
3033_161333_440000000.jpg3033_161333_440000000.jpg
I take the template former out before soldering of course (!), but it keeps everything together.

The result looks like this on the top:
3033_161335_160000000.jpg3033_161335_160000000.jpg

but like this underneath:
3033_161335_510000000.jpg3033_161335_510000000.jpg
which makes me think I'd be better off soldering the crossing upside down. I'm still having solder melting issues, but then I haven't yet bought any other solder or flux. But at least everything stays still during the soldering. Feeling a little happier! Off to badminton.

posted: 16 Nov 2015 19:55

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello,
        You might find something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SH-1025-Large-80mm-Soldering-Iron-Tip-Cleaner-NEW-/121064358019?hash=item1c2fff8083:m:m9VY2bGoFGXCCv5L0I3TUFw
cleans the tip easier and better than something wet and cold which tends to cool the tip.

Regards. :)

posted: 16 Nov 2015 21:03

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Trevor Walling wrote:
Hello,
        You might find something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SH-1025-Large-80mm-Soldering-Iron-Tip-Cleaner-NEW-/121064358019?hash=item1c2fff8083:m:m9VY2bGoFGXCCv5L0I3TUFw
cleans the tip easier and better than something wet and cold which tends to cool the tip.

Regards. :)
Hi Trevor
Thanks, that's also a very useful, ahem, tip.

Richard

posted: 16 Nov 2015 22:09

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Richard

I know a lot of folk use those things, but abrasives do ware away the plating on the tips which then start corroding, don't ask how I know

Try cleaning the tip by re-tinning it. Get some scrap metal, flood it with flux and have some solder in the pool, melt the solder and gently rub the tip on the metal. The re-tinning hopefully will clean the tip, which in turn will make it hotter, which will give you better solder joints

posted: 16 Nov 2015 22:41

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Hayfield wrote:
Richard

I know a lot of folk use those things, but abrasives do ware away the plating on the tips which then start corroding, don't ask how I know

Try cleaning the tip by re-tinning it. Get some scrap metal, flood it with flux and have some solder in the pool, melt the solder and gently rub the tip on the metal. The re-tinning hopefully will clean the tip, which in turn will make it hotter, which will give you better solder joints
Thanks - I will try that!

posted: 17 Nov 2015 00:33

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Jubilee42 wrote:

After reading your posts (thanks) and doing a bit more thinking I decided to make a jig to build the crossing in.
Good idea. I mainly use something similar. In my case I have a bit of hardwood inside the crossing V shaped to the right angle, and two more bits outside the V to hold the rails in place. The main difference is that the actual bit of the V where the rails join lies off the base itself in thin air. This may help the solder flow between the two bits of rail (the base and bits of wood no longer act as a heat sink), and it means you're not burning up the bits of wood :).  My method of holding everything down is relatively crude; double sided tape under the bits of wood, and another bit of wood held across the tops of the rails with one hand.

It's the same idea as the Portisdown V crossing jig; in fact I have one of these, one of a number he did for the 3mm Society. Apart from the fact that it only offers 4 whole-number crossings, I find the Portisdown jig has one other problem; the crossing join is a fair way from the jig itself. Using the code 60 bullhead rail it's intended for, it's possible for the rail to flex between jig and tip, and you have to be very careful it doesn't.

Nigel


posted: 17 Nov 2015 07:57

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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Jubilee42 wrote:
Hayfield wrote:
Richard

I know a lot of folk use those things, but abrasives do ware away the plating on the tips which then start corroding, don't ask how I know

Try cleaning the tip by re-tinning it. Get some scrap metal, flood it with flux and have some solder in the pool, melt the solder and gently rub the tip on the metal. The re-tinning hopefully will clean the tip, which in turn will make it hotter, which will give you better solder joints
Thanks - I will try that!
Richard,

Another method which works very well is to dip the hot iron tip into Carrs 188 solder paint when you get an almost instant tinned tip.   I got a bottle of the 188 just for this from Brian Lewis some years ago and the only problem is that it has now dried up. :)

Jim.

posted: 17 Nov 2015 08:05

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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undefinedundefined
Here is a photo of my simple jig for holding the rails in a Vee shape whilst being soldered. My 25 watt iron has to be very hot as the aluminium strip acts as a heat sink
The strip is easily bought from a local DIY store and its 10 x 2 mm
I guess a more ingenious person could invent an adjustable one, but the chocks have to be the correct size.
These jigs can be made from sleeper strip (ply or copperclad) or even thick card, for 4 mm scale 1.06 copperclad strip is fine
Attachment: attach_2174_2781_91.JPG     903

posted: 17 Nov 2015 12:19

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Jim Guthrie wrote:
Another method which works very well is to dip the hot iron tip into Carrs 188 solder paint when you get an almost instant tinned tip. 
A similar idea; if you can get a blob of solder to attach to the tip, just dunk quickly in 188 flux.

I find the wet sponge method works fine. I use it before and after every single application of the iron; it becomes automatic after a time.

The only time I get any crust building up on the iron is if I accidentally leave it on for a couple of days :shock:. Gentle prodding with a file will remove it without scratching the metal shield on the tip. Once the shield goes then crud builds up a lot quicker and I think it's better to invest in a new tip.

Nigel

posted: 17 Nov 2015 13:27

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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Nigel Brown wrote:
Jim Guthrie wrote:
The only time I get any crust building up on the iron is if I accidentally leave it on for a couple of days :shock:. Gentle prodding with a file will remove it without scratching the metal shield on the tip. Once the shield goes then crud builds up a lot quicker and I think it's better to invest in a new tip.
 
Nigel,

In my case I found it of great use with my 100W Weller iron.  When I got the iron,  the plating on the bit wasn't very good and I filed it off to work with the copper underneath.  And just like the old days,  the copper oxidises through time and a regular dunk in the 188 solder kept it in good shape.

Jim.

posted: 18 Nov 2015 14:13

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Richard,

Another method which works very well is to dip the hot iron tip into Carrs 188 solder paint when you get an almost instant tinned tip.   I got a bottle of the 188 just for this from Brian Lewis some years ago and the only problem is that it has now dried up. :)

Jim.
Hi Jim

I have been told that it is possible to revive solder paste by adding Carrs Green Label flux to it and giving it a good mixing, I have not yet had to try it myself.

Cheers Phil

posted: 18 Nov 2015 22:04

from:

Paul Willis
 
 

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Phil O wrote:

Richard,

Another method which works very well is to dip the hot iron tip into Carrs 188 solder paint when you get an almost instant tinned tip.   I got a bottle of the 188 just for this from Brian Lewis some years ago and the only problem is that it has now dried up. :)

Jim.
Hi Jim

I have been told that it is possible to revive solder paste by adding Carrs Green Label flux to it and giving it a good mixing, I have not yet had to try it myself.

Cheers Phil
I rarely comment on the Templot forum as my knowledge of the program and the prototype track is far surpassed by many others.  But I do know a little bit about this...

I had a good conversation with Brian Lewis at Scaleforum two or three years ago.  My pot of 188 solder paint was also drying up even though it was only half empty.  Brian confirmed that the best way of reviving it was indeed adding Green Label flux, and stirring it until it was of the correct consistency.

However, if the solder paint had dried out and solidified, it could not be redeemed.  Adding flux and scraping it together would not change the solid lump back into a smooth liquid.  The best that you would get would be flux with flecks of solder in it.

So if you've managed to catch the drying up process early enough, you can save it and reuse the pot.  I know this, as it has worked for me.  But if it has dried solid, I'm afraid that it is too late.

Cheers
Paul Willis


posted: 19 Nov 2015 17:22

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Paul

This was my experience, once solid absolutely usless

posted: 20 Nov 2015 11:15

from:

Godfrey Earnshaw
 
Crawley - United Kingdom

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Hayfield wrote:
undefinedundefined
Here is a photo of my simple jig for holding the rails in a Vee shape whilst being soldered. My 25 watt iron has to be very hot as the aluminium strip acts as a heat sink
The strip is easily bought from a local DIY store and its 10 x 2 mm
I guess a more ingenious person could invent an adjustable one, but the chocks have to be the correct size.
These jigs can be made from sleeper strip (ply or copperclad) or even thick card, for 4 mm scale 1.06 copperclad strip is fine
Ever so humble Mr Hayfield but I find the statement about the chocks having to be the right size a little strange.
I have found that the use of vee shaped chocks is completely unnecessary. I use a simple round one, usually a cheese head screw. You only need a point of contact on each rail so basically any shape will do. Saves a lot of filing.
Sorry for nit picking.
Cheers 
Godders

posted: 21 Nov 2015 06:13

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Godders

Good response, not nit picking as I and I guess others are open to suggestions. I would agree with you that for something that will not be used that often filing up a metal Vee chock may not be necessary. A simple thick piece of card would also work. I am guessing its not a counter sunk head screw, great idea

I have found that if making a few the extra work making a metal one is more than paid off as it takes a few seconds to use, especially as I turn the Vee over and solder the other side.

posted: 24 Nov 2015 09:29

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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I've been making intermittent progress with my turnout, as you can see on this rather grainy recording. The BBC programme in the background is doubtlessly copyrighted (sorry BBC).
http://www.skoletube.dk/video/1509642/c1c04872725bd055eff4

Things I've learned include:
  1. Use track and check gauges at all times!
  2. It's quite difficult to make the turnout road smooth at the vee. It doesn't show it here, but the wagon snags slightly. I'm going to try repositioning the switch rail and the check rail very slightly
  3. It's complicated doing a combined pcb/plywood turnout, because of the chairs. The 0.5mm copper square under the rail still doesn't quite fill the gap, and as a result the soldering gets messy.
  4. The vee is incredibly smooth! No bump at all when it's aligned properly!!
Progress is very slow because of the very limited time I can give, and because I've spent some time reading, thinking, redoing, and waiting for things I've ordered to arrive. But all these things are useful experiences for the next one, and I am very grateful to you all for the advice and encouragement you have been providing. I think I will build a couple more turnouts, but I am nearing the time when I have to clear up the train room, which doubles as far too many other things, and get designing some baseboards.



posted: 24 Nov 2015 09:44

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Martin may be able to add further, check the back to back gauge of the wheels first

As for soldering, tin the items first with very little solder, its much easier if the spacers are narrower than the sleepers. use plenty of flux once soldered to the rails file/grind back to rail sides

posted: 24 Nov 2015 09:59

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Hayfield wrote:
Martin may be able to add further, check the back to back gauge of the wheels first

As for soldering, tin the items first with very little solder, its much easier if the spacers are narrower than the sleepers. use plenty of flux once soldered to the rails file/grind back to rail sides
Hi, and thanks for the immediate response!!
I don't think it's a back to back issue. I think the problem was that I didn't curve the turnout switch enough at the vee. If I check the alignment it is a tiy tiny bit out, which I think is causing the bump. But it was quite late and not well lit when I looked, so I'm going to check again before unsoldering. I will also check the check rail again. As Gordon S points out in his ET thread, he feels the positioning of the check rail is vital to smooth running, and this seems logical to me. Here it could be, as you point out, useful to check the back to back gauge. I assume I can also buy a gauge from C+L whilst purchasing some proper flux... It's a good thing it's nearly Christmas! The items themselves are not at all unreasonably priced, but it is quite expensive getting them sent over here each time!

posted: 24 Nov 2015 11:09

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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The full set of gauges are quite expensive and international postage does not help that much, but once you have them they last hopefully for ever

Good light is a must

posted: 27 Nov 2015 18:13

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Hi Jubilee 42.
Just catching up on this thread. I noticed that in your test picture posted on the 13th that the rail on the left is upside down. It is easily done if you were not aware, Bullhead rail has a larger head than the foot, which will cause problems with functional chairs if used the wrong way up. I think you have probably already had enough advise about soldering already without me adding to it!
Good luck with your project.
Tony W.

posted: 27 Nov 2015 20:37

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Tony W wrote:
Hi Jubilee 42.
Just catching up on this thread. I noticed that in your test picture posted on the 13th that the rail on the left is upside down. It is easily done if you were not aware, Bullhead rail has a larger head than the foot, which will cause problems with functional chairs if used the wrong way up. I think you have probably already had enough advise about soldering already without me adding to it!
Good luck with your project.
Tony W.
Is it? ........
Thank you, that's very useful! I didn't realise there was a right way up with bullhead rail. I thought the whole point of it was to be able to wear out the top and then turn it upside down to wear out the new top. The photo you refer to was only to show the relative height difference between my trunout and SMP rail. The rail was just resting there. However, since there are several individual pieces of rail in a turnout and I have a 50% chance of getting each one right, then I have almost certainly put some bits on upside down. Although this is not nice to know, it's still much better to be aware of it now than in a few months time when I have built several more. I'll go and check now.

Although I have finished all the glueing and soldering I have had problems with the crossing area. Wheels glide through onthe main road, but I have not managed to line up the turnout road successfully enough, and although nothing actually derails, there is a definite bump, especially with the middle wheels of a  6 wheeled chassis. The problem is that the inside closer rails (hope the terminology is correct - it has come from one of Bob Essery's books) are too close together. I'll take a picture..

posted: 27 Nov 2015 21:36

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Here is the turnout as of now:
3033_271602_560000000.jpg3033_271602_560000000.jpg I've not finished the slide chairs. Considering I've never built a turnout before, it's not been a complete disaster. Your helpful advice and encouragement has played a large part in this!
 The switch rails I am particularly pleased with, and the filing and construction of the vee went much better at the second attempt. Everything also runs like a dream through the main road.

The problem is here:
3033_271615_020000000.jpg3033_271615_020000000.jpg
I would ask you all to try to ignore my rather messy soldering (and not least resoldering). At the position marked the wheels hop, some more than others. This is because of the insufficient space between the rails, and because the turnout side closure rail bends just a fraction before the other one, so the wheels hit the other rail. I may have a go at it this weekend if I can find some time (unlikely), but having already unsoldered it once with successful but messy results, I am not sure how much of my attention it can stand. Next time I build a turnout I will spend more time getting it perfectly bent and aligned before any solder is allowed to touch it (although I thought I had this time too).

Finally, yes, some of the rails are upside down:
3033_271626_130000000.jpg3033_271626_130000000.jpgI hadn't even vaguely considered this, so I'm very grateful to you, Tony, for pointing it out. It explains why some of the chairs threaded easily, and some were obstinate! I think I will run a red marker pen along the bottom edge of the unused rails, because I can only make out any difference through my glasses and a magnifying glass.

Anyway, enough from me. Enjoy your weekends, every one of you!

Best wishes
Richard

PS. Do any of you know whether C+L Pete is OK? It says on the website he was taken ill at a show? He has also sent me several very helpful e-mails recently.

posted: 27 Nov 2015 22:22

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Jubilee42 wrote:
The problem is here:

3033_271615_020000000.jpg3033_271615_020000000.jpg

Hi Richard,

Here's some stuff which I have posted before. It looks that your knuckle bend is a bit too sharp (red line below):

The knuckles should be radiused, the knuckle gap being wider than the crossing flangeway gap.

Here's a diagram which may help when setting the wing rail knuckles:

2_220535_490000000.png2_220535_490000000.png

The blue infill shows the theoretical ideal with a sharp bend at K exactly matching the angle of the vee and in line with it. In practice on the prototype it is not possible to make such a sharp bend because of the 1:20 inclination of the rails.

Instead, a short curve is used, as shown by the green line, making the knuckle gap wider than the flangeway gap. It works fine, and can help if replicated on the model. Some companies made this curve quite gentle and obvious as shown -- the NER for example. On the GWR the curve matches the crossing angle in feet, so for example a 1:7 crossing has the knuckle bend curved at 7ft radius.

But it's important to get the flangeway gap correct alongside the nose of the vee at X in the diagram, otherwise there is a risk of wheels dropping into the gap in front of it.

What you must not do is make the knuckle bend too sharp, as shown by the red line. This is guaranteed to cause problems.

2_050420_590000000.png2_050420_590000000.png


p.s. Here's a diagram of bullhead rail section, with the thicker edge on top.

2_130841_170000000.png2_130841_170000000.png
If you have trouble identifying the top edge, try pressing the rail end into a bit of Blu-Tack (or Cheddar cheese) and looking at the impression left. Nowadays for me at least it is easier to see the rail section that way than looking directly at the rail. (40 years ago when I was building track commercially, I could identify the rail just by feel. :) )

The idea of reversing bullhead rail was abandoned because of the indentations in the foot after long use in the chairs. The reason for the heavier top edge is to allow for wear.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 27 Nov 2015 22:47

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Richard,

If using C&L or Exactoscale chairs they should slide onto the rails easily, just make sure to deburr the rail ends. Putting them on the thicker top of the rail will distort or bend them.

Send the unused cheddar cheese to me for tasting.........

Best wishes to Pete @ C&L, no update on the website as yet.

Rob


posted: 27 Nov 2015 23:42

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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My favourite mistake is shoving the chairs on the rail with the outside on the inside. Not easy to notice until the wheel rims start bumping along the tops of the chairs :(

Nigel

posted: 28 Nov 2015 23:02

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Richard,

Here's some stuff which I have posted before. It looks that your knuckle bend is a bit too sharp (red line below):

The knuckles should be radiused, the knuckle gap being wider than the crossing flangeway gap.

 
regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin
Thanks - that advice was invaluable. I have been tweaking the turnout in line with your recommendations and the result is ... smoothness!! Here's another video taken in rather poor light:
http://www.skoletube.dk/video/1526094/1f94c8544fef6dd7912d
 I am indebted to all of you who have contributed on this thread with much valuable advice, and appreciate that very many of you have extensive trackwork building experience, so perhaps one more or less turnout construction is no big deal, but I, having never tried any of this before, am extremely chuffed! I am planning on this being the first of many turnouts and other more complicated trackwork, and have had a lot of valuable experiences with this first one. There are a few things remaining - isolating the crossing area, attaching dropper wires, gluing the remaining chairs, but the back of this exercise is most definitely broken, I hope.

There is something I am wondering about, though. Soldering the whole turnout would provide strength to the unit, and I can see from attaching little bits of extra track to the approach and exit roads, that the plastic chairs still allow the rail to slide within them. I am slightly concerned that when I lift the turnout from the paper, that it will start to open out (the main side has a slight positive curve). Is this a legitimate worry? At the moment the paper and sticky tape are holding all the timbers in place. Would it be best to just leave the paper and cut round it? Am I worrying needlessly?

I know I have said this before, but I am so so grateful for all the help I have had! A huge thank you to all of you!

posted: 29 Nov 2015 00:04

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Jubilee42 wrote:
There is something I am wondering about, though. Soldering the whole turnout would provide strength to the unit, and I can see from attaching little bits of extra track to the approach and exit roads, that the plastic chairs still allow the rail to slide within them. I am slightly concerned that when I lift the turnout from the paper, that it will start to open out (the main side has a slight positive curve). Is this a legitimate worry? At the moment the paper and sticky tape are holding all the timbers in place. Would it be best to just leave the paper and cut round it?

Am I worrying needlessly?
Hi Richard,

Well done. :)

It's a long time since I built my first turnout as a teenager, but I can still remember the pleasure of getting it working, and it led to a lifetime interest in railway track.

You are not worrying needlessly. All-soldered copper-clad track is quite robust and can stand some rough handling, but other forms of construction are more fragile, especially in the switch area.

Generally I suggest leaving it attached to the template and burying the whole lot in the ballast. Trim the paper close to the timber ends*, and cut some slits in the paper so that the ballast adhesive can penetrate through into the underlay.

*if you plan ahead when fixing the paper to the work board, this also releases the template from the board. :)

However, this does rather depend on the quality of paper used. Generally I suggest 160gsm as much better for construction templates than ordinary 80gsm office paper. Or even thicker if you can get it and your printer will accept it.

I have seen it suggested to use a penetrating cyano glue on the chairs to fix them to the rail, after assembly is complete, but I haven't tried it so can't comment.

Some builders use Loctite 435 to fix the switch slide chairs to the rail, which otherwise have a habit of falling loose after removal from the template.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Nov 2015 00:20

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Hi Richard.
Yes, there is a risk that some timbers using functional chairs can move along the rail once the track is removed from the tape, but it should be a simple matter to gently place the track back over the Templot print and reposition the timbers before laying in place on the layout. It is probably best to leave the track on the plan until one is ready to lay them in position on the baseboard. If you pre-curve your rails (as you should) your constructed track alignment should not really alter.
Martin has already made most of the comments I was going to make, but I would like to emphasise the importance of making sure the two bends at the knuckle are absolutely opposite one another or you will encounter problems as you have discovered. My method of building vee crossings is to make the vee as you have but then lay a smooth flat file on top of my workbench and gently rub the diverging side (i.e. the splice rail side) of the vee back and forth along the top file surface to remove any burrs etc. this will show you where there are any proud spots as you will see the shiny areas where the file is removing the metal.
Once the vee is soldered in position, I fit the straight wing rail by tack soldering two joints checking the crossing flangeway with the Crossing Flangeway gauge and then check the alignment through the vee using a steel rule, there should be no gaps between the rule and the rails. It is important to get this right before proceeding as you have only two solder joins to undo if you need to move the wing rail at this stage. Once you are happy with the first wing rail the second one can be fitted ensuring that the two knuckle bends are opposite each other. If one wants to be really picky, they should be opposite a line bisecting the crossing angle.
Building pointwork is an art and each one will be an improvement on the one before as we learn from experience.
All the best
Tony W.

Last edited on 29 Nov 2015 00:25 by Tony W
posted: 29 Nov 2015 01:26

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Tony W wrote:
Hi Richard.
...
Once the vee is soldered in position, I fit the straight wing rail by tack soldering two joints checking the crossing flangeway with the Crossing Flangeway gauge and then check the alignment through the vee using a steel rule, there should be no gaps between the rule and the rails. It is important to get this right before proceeding as you have only two solder joins to undo if you need to move the wing rail at this stage. Once you are happy with the first wing rail the second one can be fitted ensuring that the two knuckle bends are opposite each other. If one wants to be really picky, they should be opposite a line bisecting the crossing angle.
Building pointwork is an art and each one will be an improvement on the one before as we learn from experience.
All the best
Tony W.

Hi Tony, and thanks. I think my mistake was to think that after I'd managed to solder the vee and file the switch rails I assumed the knuckle would just work, so I laid the closer rails from the Templot plan alone. The plan is excellent, and I'd never have got to starting without it, but it doesn't allow you to dispense with gauges, and soldering too much without checking everything is asking for trouble (I discovered!). However I am now wiser, and nearly ready to commence work on a Y-turnout. But not before some sleep!!

posted: 29 Nov 2015 17:13

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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Richard

Removing the backing from timbers depends on a couple of things, firstly if you wipe some solvent over the top of the chairs (where the keys are) when the solvent dry's the chairs stick to the rail, not a strong bond but enough

Next is how much tape you have used, I cut strips about 2mm wide, just about enough tack to keep the timbers in place

Flood the plan where the tape is with white spirit, this will degrade the glue on the tape

posted: 29 Nov 2015 20:11

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Hayfield wrote:
Richard

Removing the backing from timbers depends on a couple of things, firstly if you wipe some solvent over the top of the chairs (where the keys are) when the solvent dry's the chairs stick to the rail, not a strong bond but enough

Next is how much tape you have used, I cut strips about 2mm wide, just about enough tack to keep the timbers in place

Flood the plan where the tape is with white spirit, this will degrade the glue on the tape
Dear Mr H
Thanks! Using thinner strips of tape seems eminently sensible. I dabbed the tape with a teatowel as per Gorden S's recommendation, so some of the stick will be gone, but the meths suggestion is very useful. As I mentioned several posts ago, I haven't any baseboards yet, so I think I will put the turnout carefully out of harm's way and on its paper backing until it's needed.

Every few hours I pop downstairs just to run something over the turnout. I am delighted by the way everything glides through! This might sound a little childish, but I can live with that! :D

posted: 6 Dec 2015 00:50

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Quick update!
Having got most of the way through building a Y-turnout up until 1½ hours ago, all was going exceedingly well until I managed to knock over almost the whole bottle of Butanone, flooding the trunout and most of the work area. I can confirm that it stinks, and dissolves all sorts of plastics, not just chairs. It also seems to be good at getting paint of pencils.

After much frantic drying up and disposal of kitchen paper, during which our cat coincidentally wet our bed, I have now tried to seal off the rooms and opened all the windows. Not a very happy end to an evening's modelling, and the turnout is looking very much the worse for wear. Thank goodness I wasn't building it in situ! :(

posted: 6 Dec 2015 01:15

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Oh dear! Sorry to hear that Richard. :(

We have all been there, but usually only once. After that some ideas like this are added to the workbench:

http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/a-useful-item-that-might-be-going-spare-in-your-kitchen.4023/

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/squeeze-bottles/5474226/

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/pipe-clips-clamps/6195255/

regards,

Martin.

posted: 6 Dec 2015 07:47

from:

alan@york
 
 

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My solution:A small butanone bottle is placed in a larger tin, the gap between them was filled with small stones, which were then glued in with PVA. The small bottle is then topped up as required.Forty years on, it is still in use. 
a@yPS Had similar accident too. 

posted: 6 Dec 2015 08:06

from:

Hayfield
 
United Kingdom

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I just top up a bottle by 1/3rd each time I use it up for both solvent and flux (Clean out flux bottles in between fills), must get round to either buying one of those gismos or drill a hole in an off cut of wood

posted: 6 Dec 2015 09:17

from:

polybear
 
 

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I buy Butanone from Plumber's Merchants, as "Polypipe CF250 Pipe Cleaner", which is Butanone (NOT "Polypipe Solvent Cement", which is thick gooey stuff). Comes in a short dumpy plastic 250ml screw-lid container - very difficult to knock over. Or buy it from Ebay - 1 Litre of the stuff is currently available for £7-29 incl. delivery; there's several suppliers to choose from. HTH
Brian

posted: 6 Dec 2015 20:52

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Thanks for the helpful comments! I can see from the number of spelling mistakes in my post that the fumes were perhaps more heady than I realised! I've still got about 1/3 of the bottle left, so the need for more is not acute, but I am wondering whether I can get some over here. I'm not sure whether you can send Butanone through the post. It's a bit annoying, as it was virtually a full bottle - I'd only glued about 30 chairs with it. Never mind - at least no one got hurt, and I think I might be able to save the turnout if I can get the semi-dissolved chairs off. Luckily it was only one end that got drowned. However the capilliary action spread the glue through the plan and dissolved a lot of the sticky tape. So now I can see for myself what happens when a turnout is removed from the plan..

posted: 6 Dec 2015 21:11

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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Jubilee42 wrote:
... but I am wondering whether I can get some over here. I'm not sure whether you can send Butanone through the post.

Check on your local Ebay in Denmark.   Traders in Ebay in the UK seem to be able to send all sorts of chemicals which you would think that they could not.   You can certainly get 99.9% MEK (Butanone) or an alternative is Dichloromethane (Plastic Weld) which I actually prefer to Butanone since the fumes don't have as much effect on me.

Jim.

posted: 10 Dec 2015 21:46

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Turnout nr 2 now finished! Soldering skills improving! Glue bottle in high-tech non tipping device. Bedtime!
3033_101643_210000000.jpg3033_101643_210000000.jpg

posted: 11 Dec 2015 00:23

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Health warning. It's addictive!

posted: 11 Dec 2015 10:03

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Nigel Brown wrote:
Health warning. It's addictive!
I think it's a combination of the glue fumes, the lead fumes and the 4-SF (sooo smooooth!!!!! :-D)

posted: 22 Apr 2017 19:14

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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I've just had a nostalgic half an hour looking back through this thread, which helped me get started, which in turn convinced a friend, that he should have a go! (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1936/entry-19276-my-first-handbuilt-point-is-finished/)
In the latest emgs newsletter (212) there's an interesting article by one Ian Worthington on track building, and he uses pins+ply. I would like to try this method around the vee, and see how I get on with it compared with my pcb method. I can see he has some flat headed brass pins. Do any of you know where I can get hold of these?
Last edited on 22 Apr 2017 19:15 by Jubilee42
posted: 22 Apr 2017 20:32

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Jubilee42 wrote:
In the latest emgs newsletter (212) there's an interesting article by one Ian Worthington on track building, and he uses pins+ply. I would like to try this method around the vee, and see how I get on with it compared with my pcb method. I can see he has some flat headed brass pins. Do any of you know where I can get hold of these?
Hi Richard,

If he is using plywood timbers it is very likely that he is using rivets rather than brass pins -- it is difficult to find ordinary pins with a thick head to raise the rail enough to fit the chairs.

Both the EMGS and the Scalefour Society can supply suitable 1mm dia. rivets, in both 2mm dia. head and 2.5mm dia. head.

The plywood timbers need to be drilled or punched 1mm dia. holes on the rail centre-line. Templot can print a drilling template for that:

2_220711_090000000.png2_220711_090000000.png

The rivets are tubular, and clenched over underneath to fix them. Ideally with a proper press tool, but many folks simply bash them with a small hammer, supporting the head in a washer to prevent crushing it into the plywood. You may see this method described as the Brook-Smith process, after the late Joe Brook Smith who invented it about 60 years ago.

An alternative, also requiring 1mm holes, is to use electronics Vero pins:

2_020948_350000000.jpg2_020948_350000000.jpg F6319596-01.jpgF6319596-01.jpg

These are a push fit, having ribs under the head, so need trimming underneath rather than clenching. They work great in copper-clad, but may not hold very firm in plywood. However, if you then fit cosmetic half-chairs round them with Loctite, that would provide sufficient strength. The advantage of Vero pins over rivets is that the head is smaller (1.6mm dia.), so making the positioning of them less critical when fitting the half-chairs over them. They are also ready tinned for easy soldering.

Vero pins available here (and elsewhere):

 http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/terminal-posts/6319596/

Drawing of Vero pin here:

 http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0e57/0900766b80e578ba.pdf

See here for examples of Vero pins in use (with copper-clad):

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69145-attention-00-sf-track-builders/page-4#entry1793752

See this topic for more trackbuilding info:

 topic 2698

regards,

Martin.

posted: 23 Apr 2017 09:26

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Thanks Martin, that was (as always) extremely useful! And Templot can help me again!! What a flexible piece of software!

posted: 25 Apr 2017 07:32

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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I use brass lace making pins,I bought them on the net. I think I Googled buy lace making pins and got a good selection of results to choose from.

Phil

posted: 25 Apr 2017 18:34

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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Thanks - I could see how that could work!

posted: 3 May 2017 19:26

from:

madscientist
 
 

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I build my crossing B and wing rails as a piece soldered to 0.6mm copper strips, cosmestic chairs then added as required . I just superglue the copper pieces to the relevant sleeper

What I do find awkward is holding both wing rails and the V in place while I solder it to the copper shim

I trying to design a jig that would hold everything , not that easy
Last edited on 3 May 2017 19:27 by madscientist
posted: 3 May 2017 20:05

from:

Jubilee42
 
Rødovre - Denmark

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That does sound quite complicated. Are all your turnouts the same? Mine are all quite different, so any jig would have to be very adaptable!
madscientist wrote:
I build my crossing B and wing rails as a piece soldered to 0.6mm copper strips, cosmestic chairs then added as required . I just superglue the copper pieces to the relevant sleeper

What I do find awkward is holding both wing rails and the V in place while I solder it to the copper shim

I trying to design a jig that would hold everything , not that easy




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