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topic: 2797GW concrete block and steel tie bar track work
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posted: 30 Nov 2015 22:27

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mikewturner
 
 

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Hi guys

Firstly apologies as am not really sure of the correct terminology for this type of track but can anyone point me in the right direction for details of block size, spacing etc etc. I assume that standard 2 bolt chairs were used?

Regards

Mike

posted: 5 Dec 2015 10:09

from:

John Shelley
 
St Ciers Sur Gironde 33820 - France

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mikewturner wrote:
Hi guys

Firstly apologies as am not really sure of the correct terminology for this type of track but can anyone point me in the right direction for details of block size, spacing etc etc. I assume that standard 2 bolt chairs were used?

Regards

Mike
I'm afraid that I can't help you directly, but I do have an LNER (GE Section) drawing of a proposal to use timber blocks instead of sleepers for siding renewals.  Would that be of use or interest?

John, from 33820 St Ciers sur Gironde

posted: 5 Dec 2015 10:15

from:

alan@york
 
 

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Is this the type of track?

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posted: 5 Dec 2015 12:14

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Nigel Brown
 
 

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Came across a statement on RMweb which states that the subject is covered in Ian Rice's book on building finescale track. Don't have the book so can't verify it.

Nigel

posted: 5 Dec 2015 12:26

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Concrete pot sleepers are covered in the late Andrew Dow's
'The Railway, British Track Since 1804. A worthwhile investment
if you like track work.
Yes there is a mention in Ian Rice's book with some thoughts on
ways to model it.

Regards Matt M.

posted: 5 Dec 2015 12:30

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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And yes the drawing and photo in Andrew's book show
two bolt chairs on the GWR version. There is a 1944
technical drawing from The Railway Gazette which I
imagine would be a copy of the GWR drawing.

Regards, Matt M

posted: 5 Dec 2015 21:47

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Hi Mike,

There were three types of concrete pot used by the GWR.
The basic dimensions are the same at 2ft-0½ inches long by
1ft-6½ inches wide. 5¼ inches high.

The flat top area was 1ft-7½ inches long by 1ft-1½ inches wide.

At the end of the flat area they have a 45 degree chamfer to the
sides which aren’t perpendicular but appear to have a slope of up to 5 degrees.

The corners are also chamfered from the flat top to the the base.
The measurement at the base is 4⅝ inches.

All three types used a ⅞ inch chair bolt.
On the type A and B pots these are centred at 11 inches apart. Though the type B could
also have them at 12 inches apart.

The Type C was experimental and moved the chair bolt holes further to the outside edge of the pot.

There is a ⅜ inch recess in the top of all of these types to take the tie bar. I’m not sure if the pots that
didn’t require a tie bar had the recess.
This goes in under the chair and is held in place by the inner chair bolt.
As the the tie bar clears the pot it changes from being a flat 2½ inch x ⅜ inch flat bar to
being L shaped with an extra 2½ inch drop on the return. this chamfered at each end at 45 degrees.

The tie bar for the Type A and B is 4ft-5¼ inches long. The one for the Type C would be longer on the flat
section due to the offset of the chair.

The chairs sit on a ½ inch elm pad.

The Type A has a 9 inch dome, that is about 1½ inches hit at the centre, cast into the bottom of the base
between the about 3 inches wide, ½ inch high bolt mounting cutout. This you can’t see while in position.
The other difference is there is a return chamfer around the bas at 45 degrees starting about 1½ inches from the bottom.

The Type B and C simply go, not so quite, straight down to the base which has a rough bottom.

There were two spacings used on 45ft track. Goods loops and sidings generally had 17 sleepers per length.
Tie bar at the end of the track. Then 1 pair of pots without tie bars. Tie bar. Then 2 without. Tie bar. Then 2 without.
Tie bar. Then 2 without. Tie bar. Then 2 without. Tie bar. 1 without. Tie bar.

Lightly worked sidings had 16 sleepers per 45ft length. This is evenly spaced at 2 without tie bars between those with tie bars.

I think that covers most of the salient points clearly.
The drawing would make this clearer of course, but I hope this is useful to you to start with.

Regards, Matt M.

posted: 6 Dec 2015 21:28

from:

mikewturner
 
 

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John Shelley wrote:
mikewturner wrote:
Hi guys

Firstly apologies as am not really sure of the correct terminology for this type of track but can anyone point me in the right direction for details of block size, spacing etc etc. I assume that standard 2 bolt chairs were used?

Regards

Mike
I'm afraid that I can't help you directly, but I do have an LNER (GE Section) drawing of a proposal to use timber blocks instead of sleepers for siding renewals.  Would that be of use or interest?

John, from 33820 St Ciers sur Gironde


Hi John

Thanks for the offer but looks like Matt has given chapter and verse on the GW version!

Regards

Mike

posted: 6 Dec 2015 21:30

from:

mikewturner
 
 

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alan@york wrote:
Is this the type of track?

2_050723_350000000.jpg2_050723_350000000.jpgundefinedundefined


Hi Alan

It's similar yes but not the same. Where is this as a matter of interest?

Regards

Mike

posted: 6 Dec 2015 21:36

from:

mikewturner
 
 

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Hi Matt

Thank you for your very comprehensive reply. The description you give exactly matches the photo I've seen which is in a siding at Barmouth, although I remember seeing some in sidings at Croes Newydd North Fork too.

I've looked in the Rice book and it gives some basic ideas on modelling but with what you've told me and the drawing if I can get a copy should give me an idea of how to model it.

Regards

Mike

posted: 6 Dec 2015 21:59

from:

alan@york
 
 

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Hi AlanIt's similar yes but not the same. Where is this as a matter of interest?RegardsMike
Mike:Mallaig Extension!(the siding was possibly relaid during the war years)Alan

posted: 6 Dec 2015 22:04

from:

mikewturner
 
 

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Hi Alan

Wow that I did not expect!

Regards

Mike

posted: 6 Dec 2015 22:06

from:

mikewturner
 
 

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Hi guys

This is the Barmouth shot I mentioned.

Regards

Mike
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posted: 6 Dec 2015 22:30

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Hi Mike,

Concrete Pots (also known as 'twin-block' or occasionally 'monoblock' sleepers),
were a wartime thing.

Most of the big companies had been looking at reinforced concrete sleepers for a while.
But earlier the cost benefits weren't there. There was no scrap value to a concrete sleeper,
unlike timber and steel sleepers. Also concrete sleepers damaged during a derailment
were not recoverable for further use, unlike timber.

The LSWR had used Pot sleepers during WW1 due to wood shortages.
And the same thing happened during WW2 and the austerity measures post war
which made timber very hard to get for the railways.

With the exception of the LNER which experimentally trialled some on running lines,
this type of sleeper was used for sidings were the lack of resilience wasn't a problem.
Lots of sidings were laid during the war.

Andrew Dow goes into the development history of concrete sleepers in the UK along
with the change to flat bottom rail in his book.
Which will give you the drawing require and all the extra history for free...

Really it is a worth while purchase.

Glad to be of help.

Matt M.

posted: 7 Dec 2015 23:29

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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undefinedundefinedundefinedundefinedHi Mike / Matt.
Below are a couple of pictures I took of some LNER pots that formed part of a short section of pot track in the goods relief on the lea valley line just north of Angel Road station North London. Although the rail and chairs have been removed, the outline of the chair can still be made out. Being LNER they were 3 bolt chairs. They are a different pattern to the GWR ones. I measured them at 2' 2" long, 12" wide and 6" deep. There is little or no taper below the corner chamfers. These particular two were at 2' 3" centres. They would certainly have been a war time replacement, possibly for bomb damaged track. From what I remember before the track was lifted, only every second or third pair of pots were tied together to hold them to gauge. It is something I hope the model a short section of one day.
Tony W.

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posted: 8 Dec 2015 00:41

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Hi Tony,

It was't just bomb damage replacement.

They also needed to lay new sidings and loops due
to the increased wartime goods traffic.

Timber was hard to get and was reserved for main lines
due to issues of resilience between the sleeper and the ballast.
This is a particular problem as speed increases.

With very few exceptions pots were only used in low speed applications.

The pot sleepers are a compromise between material use
and suitability for purpose. Hence the lack of tie bars on a majority
of sleepers per length of rail.
In a wartime and austerity settings they don't use too much steel or concrete.

And don't use timber.

During and post war a lot of energy was spent coming up with ways to make
what would have previously been considered useless split timber sleepers
be useable. Various clamps and straps and bolting formats were developed.
It was that bad.

Matt M.

Nice, useful, photos by the way.

posted: 31 Dec 2015 19:43

from:

mikewturner
 
 

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Hi guys

Thanks to Matt's suggestion Santa brought me a copy of Andrew Dow's book so I have the drawings :-)

Regards

Mike

posted: 23 Jan 2016 03:57

from:

Andrew Barrowman
 
USA

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Going a bit "off topic", but isn't there a French version that uses (or used) zig-zag ties?

posted: 23 Jan 2016 14:39

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Here is a scrap pile of GWR-pattern concrete pots.

Sorry for not posting this photo earlier, I had forgotten I had it.

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Martin.

posted: 9 Feb 2016 19:07

from:

mikewturner
 
 

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Hi guys

This turned up today from an ex BR engineer and must say blew my mind completely as didn't expect pots to be used in pointwork!

Regards

Mike
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posted: 19 May 2016 22:41

from:

alan@york
 
 

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Turning from the prototype to the practical model railway, has anyone built track of this type. If so, did you have a baselayer below to stabilise the gauge, or was another method used to tie the blocks together.
Thanks
Alan@york

posted: 22 May 2016 04:07

from:

Andrew Barrowman
 
USA

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alan@york wrote:
Turning from the prototype to the practical model railway, has anyone built track of this type. If so, did you have a baselayer below to stabilise the gauge, or was another method used to tie the blocks together.
Thanks
Alan@york
Haven't tried it Alan, but it would not be too difficult to make something like this on a 3D printer. If I was making them I would add low profile webs to connect the blocks. The webs would be hidden under the ballast.



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