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                                       tandem turnouts
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 13 Dec 2015 21:29
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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I have had a very long break in my railway modelling and as a result, have forgotten too much. 
The problem I have come across is that I need to use a 3 way turnout. The main track is straight with a turnout each side. Pretty straight foreward (I thought) but not in practise!
I know that the current thinking is to use gaunt turnouts for this application but, try as a may, I could not find a way of using these - if there is already a description for this type of application, please excuse me but it would be good to have the thread pointed out.
Without any other guidance, I thought I would use the out of date instructions for a tandem turnout. This is pre Templot 2 but I managed to find the items in the new menu.
I set up Turnouts 1 and 2 without any problem and they line up nicely. The problem seems to be with Turnout 3 which provides the partial template for the centre crossing. It seems to be misaligned but I cannot figure out how to correct it. Any help would be gratefully received.
I have attached the box file to this post.
Many thanks
Peter
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Attachment: group_2015_12_13_2204_02 3 way.box (Downloaded 158 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 14 Dec 2015 12:57
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from:
John Palmer
 

 

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Here's my attempt.

Once I have the 'middle' crossing located on the FP, my usual approach is to size it with F9 until I arrive at a value ending in .0 or .5 - this reflects the fact that the formation would have been assembled from available, standard components.  1 : 5 and 1 : 5.5 values seem common.  Next, I often find it necessary to apply some rotation to the crossing with F8 and some curvature with F6.  Finally some adjustment of the V crossing entry straights for the other two crossings seems likely to be required, using Shift+F11.

After that it's a case of creating copies of various elements of the formation, usually without timbering, and adjusting the length and blanking length of these, respectively with F4 and Ctrl+F3, and selection of which elements are to be included in the partial templates via the relevant dialog accessed by Crtl+O.

Check rails will need to be adjusted using the dialog accessed by Shift+Ctrl+F9, in some cases eliminating the flare and, if appropriate, extending the check rail to check two crossings - I've done this for the l/h diverging road.

The crossing on the l/h divergence is just about adequately checked, but there's not much space for this, and you might wish to adjust this.  I've also left much of the timbering to be shoved to taste.

HTH.

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message ref: 19607
Attachment: group_2015_12_14_1026_15.box (Downloaded 131 times)
 
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3rd message | this message only posted: 14 Dec 2015 15:22
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Peter,

For the middle V-crossing in a tandem turnout it is usually convenient to use a partial irregular half-diamond or a partial gaunt turnout template. If one can't be made to fit, try the other.

Slide the peg along the rail to the intersection (for best results choose the rail with the easier radius), and then put the notch under it.

Then if you peg a half-diamond template on the intersection using CTRL+4, you can adjust the V-crossing angle using F9 and the radius in the diagonal side using F10. Swap between these two until you get a good fit when zoomed-in. Remember to curve the main side (F6) to match the underlying turnouts first. Remember that the middle V-crossing needs to be a curviform pattern.

Which illustrates how out-of-date the old tandem video is. I have more than once been on the point of deleting it, but hesitated because I simply don't have anything ready with which to replace it. See: 

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2418&forum_id=22#p16361

This post contains a commentary on the old tandem video which may be useful:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=707&forum_id=1#p4150

If you search for tandem turnouts on this forum you will find dozens of results, some of them out-of-date. But this topic is a worth reading:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2394&forum_id=22#p16119

If you use a gaunt turnout for the middle V-crossing, this post may be helpful:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=1487&forum_id=17

But it's more likely that an irregular half-diamond will fit better, in which case use the F10 and F9 mouse actions to adjust it.

John Preston wrote a tutorial for tandems. It can be downloaded from:

john_preston_tandem_part1.pdf

john_preston_tandem_part2.pdf

(4 pages in each part)

All the above is out of date for Templot2, but may be helpful.

regards,

Martin.

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4th message | this message only posted: 14 Dec 2015 15:42
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
John Palmer wrote:my usual approach is to size it with F9 until I arrive at a value ending in .0 or .5 - Hi John,

Templot can do this for you -- click the action > F9 V-crossing angle options > snap F9 to 1/4 RAM steps menu option.

Bear in mind that the GWR and BR(W) had standard crossings available in 0.25 steps.

In general I think it is better to do the design using exact angles, and fair in a standard-size crossing to fit at the construction stage.

Traditionally P.W. designers have been divided on this, especially in the design of double-junctions. Nowadays a standard size is used and the radius is adjusted in each leg of the closure rail to get a fit. That changes the lead length of the underlying turnouts a fraction, which may not be convenient if they are already aligned to surrounding tracks, such as being part of a crossover.

regards,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 15 Dec 2015 07:59
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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John Palmer wrote: Here's my attempt.

Once I have the 'middle' crossing located on the FP, my usual approach is to size it with F9 until I arrive at a value ending in .0 or .5 - this reflects the fact that the formation would have been assembled from available, standard components.  1 : 5 and 1 : 5.5 values seem common.  Next, I often find it necessary to apply some rotation to the crossing with F8 and some curvature with F6.  Finally some adjustment of the V crossing entry straights for the other two crossings seems likely to be required, using Shift+F11.

After that it's a case of creating copies of various elements of the formation, usually without timbering, and adjusting the length and blanking length of these, respectively with F4 and Ctrl+F3, and selection of which elements are to be included in the partial templates via the relevant dialog accessed by Crtl+O.

Check rails will need to be adjusted using the dialog accessed by Shift+Ctrl+F9, in some cases eliminating the flare and, if appropriate, extending the check rail to check two crossings - I've done this for the l/h diverging road.

The crossing on the l/h divergence is just about adequately checked, but there's not much space for this, and you might wish to adjust this.  I've also left much of the timbering to be shoved to taste.

HTH.
Thank you John :D. I have adjusted the following:
  • Extended the diverging route check rail length.
  • Extended the stock rail check rail slightly by converting one end from flared to machined to give me more room.
  • Extended the l/h branch line exit ( I am leaving the timbers in this section until I incorporate the tandem on the layout.
  • Used  the 'shove timber' function to add the missing timbers and adjust the timber lengths.
 I learnt a lot with this exercise - I can see the sense in creating many partial templates (I have tried to avoid this in the past!)
I was out all day yesterday and so apologise for not replying sooner.
Best wishes
Peter
Modified box file attached.
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Attachment: group_2015_12_14_1026_15 (2).box (Downloaded 135 times)
 
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6th message | this message only posted: 15 Dec 2015 08:03
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin,
Thanks for the links.
Best wishes
Peter
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7th message | this message only posted: 15 Dec 2015 12:54
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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Hi all,
I have managed to print a template from the boxfile and it looks OK to build from. I looked at my track plan in Sketchboard and found that the screen output only shows the final crossing V, everything else is omitted. Any advice on this please? Do  I need to re-order the box file  partial templates?
many thanks
Peter
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8th message | this message only posted: 15 Dec 2015 14:12
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
PeterD wrote: I have managed to print a template from the boxfile and it looks OK to build from. I looked at my track plan in Sketchboard and found that the screen output only shows the final crossing V, everything else is omitted. Any advice on this please?Hi Peter,

Partial templates are not supported in diagram-mode.

Diagram-mode output fills colour between the running rails. So if one of them is missing, it can't.

The solution depends on what you are using the sketchboard output for?

You can change to detail-mode for the sketchboard trackplan item, and have the full template detail shown, as on the template prints. Or if you simply want a basic track plan you can change to having the tracks drawn as thick centre-lines on the sketchboard. With either of these options you can't have the coloured track background feature.

If you want a neat output in diagram-mode, perhaps for a magazine illustration, you can lay temporary plain track templates across the area of your tandem. Keep them as unused templates in the storage box, and copy them to the background while making the diagram-mode output. Wipe them off the background when reverting to printing detail-mode.

regards,

Martin.

__________
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9th message | this message only posted: 15 Dec 2015 15:24
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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Thanks Martin,
I have chosen 'Detail mode' and all is OK. This mode meets my requirements so all is well.
Best wishes
Peter
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10th message | this message only posted: 9 Jan 2017 12:39
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from:
Stephen Freeman
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Sorry if I'm being a bit thick but I can no longer see how to change from diagram to detail mode. Sure I managed it before but just can't find the option. Any clues please? Sorry just answered my own question.

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11th message | this message only posted: 9 Jan 2017 15:58
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi Stephen,

The setting is on the print pages dialog:



and also at output > output mode options > menu items.

Note that diagram mode isn't available for the control template, it's for background templates only.

regards,

Martin.

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12th message | this message only posted: 10 Jan 2017 14:32
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from:
Stephen Freeman
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Hi,
Martin, no it wasn't printing Templot templates that was causing me grief (should have been clearer on that) but sketchboard, anyway I figured out how to do it by trial and error. Untick the update automatically for diagram and update manually, voila!
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