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1st message | this message only posted: 21 Jan 2016 16:19
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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A little background. Previously I have constructed trackwork using copper clad sleepers but now I am building using ply sleepers and chairs. I have found this a real challenge with the small parts to thread on the rails etc. It is not as strong as copper clad and care needs to be taken when moving the trackwork to the railway layout. This led me try and build the track in situ to avoid having to move it. I used foam backed wallpaper as an underlay. I found that this did not provide and absolutely flat surface and any pressure being applied distorted the surface (e.g. when trimming chairs). Things improved after I used the proper adhesive to secure the wallpaper. I am now starting again on the Northern approach but this time I shall assemble the track work on my work bench and transfer it to the layout. I am using balsa cement to secure the sleepers to the template and a firm base to secure the templates.I have spent today getting the North Station approach prepared by carrying out the 'shove timbers' function in Templot. I have attached the file to this post.Could I please have any comments on my efforts at timber shoving and any other comments you might have.One of the most difficult areas I have had to tackle are the check rails. The 1mm flangeway check rail chairs are still not available which surprises me. I have tried to construct this part of the trackwork using a vaiety of chairs/methods but I am not happy with any of the results I have achieved so far. Does anyone have any suggestions?
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2nd message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2016 09:15
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from:
Borg-Rail
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Hi,

So far so good, I think.

Areas of concern:
Nothing to do with Templot but I think you may have to be very careful when you come to ballasting. Any water based adhesive (i.e. PVA or Copydex) could cause you great problems as they are likely to affect the wallpaper, which could well shrink on drying resulting in distortion and possibly worse (same goes for any templates left in situ).

as to the 1mm flangeway, I'm sure others will point out that the critical measurement is not the actual check-rail flangeway width itself but the distance from the inner face of the check-rail to the inner face of the crossing wing-rail.
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3rd message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2016 10:06
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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Borg-Rail wrote: Hi,

So far so good, I think.

Areas of concern:
Nothing to do with Templot but I think you may have to be very careful when you come to ballasting. Any water based adhesive (i.e. PVA or Copydex) could cause you great problems as they are likely to affect the wallpaper, which could well shrink on drying resulting in distortion and possibly worse (same goes for any templates left in situ).

as to the 1mm flangeway, I'm sure others will point out that the critical measurement is not the actual check-rail flangeway width itself but the distance from the inner face of the check-rail to the inner face of the crossing wing-rail.
Thanks for your very helpful reply :thumb:. I had held off printing the templates until I received a reply and, just as I finished printing, in came your post :D.
Thanks for your comments regarding the wallpaper. I think I shall abandon the this approach for the reason you have given and because of the issues I have found with flatness and vulnerability. I guess I am going back to the traditional cork sheets instead.
Your comments about the templates are a worry. When building turnouts with copperclad I was able to remove the templates on completion of the build before fitting them to the baseboard. Ballasting was no problem.I have found though that the ply sleeper and chair method of construction does not produce the same same degree of stability when the templates are removed and distortion can easily be introduced. I am using balsa cement to secure the sleepers to the template and Butanone to secure the chairs to the sleepers. Is there a real problem ballasting with the templates in place? If so, is there a better way of construction on the template allowing easy removal?
I have just received a bag of small chairs E4CH 203A from C&L which will reduce the amount of trimming required of some of the standard chairs.
On the flangeways, I shall check these carefully as I build the track. I have the full set of OO SF gauges.
I always start at the crossing V section and work outwards when building the templates.
Once again, many thanks.
__________
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4th message | this message only posted: 25 Jan 2016 06:52
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Peter

If it is any help, the small (London) C+L stand has the E4CH 403A 0.8 mm chairs which we use for both 4sf and em gauges. The small stand is at Southampton this coming weekend, perhaps someone is willing to pick up a packet if you cannot make it

Turnouts normally use the bridge chairs E4CH 201A I have also found that by using both E4CH 501A (additional) slide chairs and E4CH 502A common crossing chairs no cutting of chairs is necessary

I am currently trialling building a turnout with a pre made Vee and using the special chairs functionally in setting the wing/closer rails, similar (but not the same) to the way the C+L ready made turnouts are built. This may make the building of turnouts much easier for some
__________
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5th message | this message only posted: 28 Jan 2016 10:46
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from:
Borg-Rail
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Hi,
Ballasting with the template in place is very likely to result in the paper template stretching and deforming and then shrinking, however if glued to something more rigid like cork, it is probably going to be less of a problem than with foam.

Separating the turnouts from the templates is always going to be a little tricky and usually requires the application of a solvent that doesn't affect the plastic timbers or chairs to soften the adhesive. White Spirit usually works for double-sided tape. I'm not sure what you could use for balsa cement.

PeterD wrote: Borg-Rail wrote: Hi,

So far so good, I think.

Areas of concern:
Nothing to do with Templot but I think you may have to be very careful when you come to ballasting. Any water based adhesive (i.e. PVA or Copydex) could cause you great problems as they are likely to affect the wallpaper, which could well shrink on drying resulting in distortion and possibly worse (same goes for any templates left in situ).

as to the 1mm flangeway, I'm sure others will point out that the critical measurement is not the actual check-rail flangeway width itself but the distance from the inner face of the check-rail to the inner face of the crossing wing-rail.
Thanks for your very helpful reply :thumb:. I had held off printing the templates until I received a reply and, just as I finished printing, in came your post :D.
Thanks for your comments regarding the wallpaper. I think I shall abandon the this approach for the reason you have given and because of the issues I have found with flatness and vulnerability. I guess I am going back to the traditional cork sheets instead.
Your comments about the templates are a worry. When building turnouts with copperclad I was able to remove the templates on completion of the build before fitting them to the baseboard. Ballasting was no problem.I have found though that the ply sleeper and chair method of construction does not produce the same same degree of stability when the templates are removed and distortion can easily be introduced. I am using balsa cement to secure the sleepers to the template and Butanone to secure the chairs to the sleepers. Is there a real problem ballasting with the templates in place? If so, is there a better way of construction on the template allowing easy removal?
I have just received a bag of small chairs E4CH 203A from C&L which will reduce the amount of trimming required of some of the standard chairs.
On the flangeways, I shall check these carefully as I build the track. I have the full set of OO SF gauges.
I always start at the crossing V section and work outwards when building the templates.
Once again, many thanks.


__________
message ref: 19910

 
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6th message | this message only posted: 28 Jan 2016 11:40
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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I've used crafting double-sided tape with some success in the past - the tape designed for pasting stuff into scrapbooks. These are designed to allow people to move stuff about in their scrapbooks, so don't have a lot of grip - but just enough grip.

The only trouble, as ever, is the cost - it's more expensive than normal double sided.

The stuff I have is "Scotch Scrapbooking Tape", 34-8700-9324-1, and came from either HobbyCraft or Staples, here in the UK.  Here's the link to it on Scotch's webite:

http://www.scotchbrand.com/3M/en_US/scotch-brand/products/catalog/~/Scotch-Double-Sided-Removable-Scrapbooking-Tape?N=4335+3294529207+3294603433&rt=rud

 
[edit: to remove incorrect link to Amazon]

__________
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7th message | this message only posted: 1 Feb 2016 22:57
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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Hayfield wrote: Peter

If it is any help, the small (London) C+L stand has the E4CH 403A 0.8 mm chairs which we use for both 4sf and em gauges. The small stand is at Southampton this coming weekend, perhaps someone is willing to pick up a packet if you cannot make it

Turnouts normally use the bridge chairs E4CH 201A I have also found that by using both E4CH 501A (additional) slide chairs and E4CH 502A common crossing chairs no cutting of chairs is necessary

I am currently trialling building a turnout with a pre made Vee and using the special chairs functionally in setting the wing/closer rails, similar (but not the same) to the way the C+L ready made turnouts are built. This may make the building of turnouts much easier for some
Thanks for your reply and sorry for the delay in getting back to you. 
I couldn't make the Southampton show but contacted C&L directly. They are completely out of stock of the E4CH 303A, .8mm chairs. There supplier is querying the jigs to use and this has stopped production. Hopefully this will be cleared up next week when C&L visit the supplier. Hopefully, these will become available two weeks later. 
I found a part pack in my stock and tried fitting them.They work :D. If anyone has any spare stock please contact me and I shall purchase them from you. I am looking for 1 pack to get by for now.
I use a jig, purchased in 2003, to create the crossing V and this seems to work well. I also purchased a jig to manufacture switches. Both jigs have been well used and the only sign of this is the polished surface from use.
Tie bars are a hard to get item. I have contacted DCC Concepts and asked if these would be available to buy. At the moment, I am using the paxolin 'sleeper' recovered from on of my early builds.
Thank again
Best wishes
Peter
__________
message ref: 19946

 
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8th message | this message only posted: 1 Feb 2016 23:32
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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Borg-Rail wrote: Hi,
Ballasting with the template in place is very likely to result in the paper template stretching and deforming and then shrinking, however if glued to something more rigid like cork, it is probably going to be less of a problem than with foam.

Separating the turnouts from the templates is always going to be a little tricky and usually requires the application of a solvent that doesn't affect the plastic timbers or chairs to soften the adhesive. White Spirit usually works for double-sided tape. I'm not sure what you could use for balsa cement.

PeterD wrote: Borg-Rail wrote: Hi,

So far so good, I think.

Areas of concern:
Nothing to do with Templot but I think you may have to be very careful when you come to ballasting. Any water based adhesive (i.e. PVA or Copydex) could cause you great problems as they are likely to affect the wallpaper, which could well shrink on drying resulting in distortion and possibly worse (same goes for any templates left in situ).

as to the 1mm flangeway, I'm sure others will point out that the critical measurement is not the actual check-rail flangeway width itself but the distance from the inner face of the check-rail to the inner face of the crossing wing-rail.
Thanks for your very helpful reply :thumb:. I had held off printing the templates until I received a reply and, just as I finished printing, in came your post :D.
Thanks for your comments regarding the wallpaper. I think I shall abandon the this approach for the reason you have given and because of the issues I have found with flatness and vulnerability. I guess I am going back to the traditional cork sheets instead.
Your comments about the templates are a worry. When building turnouts with copperclad I was able to remove the templates on completion of the build before fitting them to the baseboard. Ballasting was no problem.I have found though that the ply sleeper and chair method of construction does not produce the same same degree of stability when the templates are removed and distortion can easily be introduced. I am using balsa cement to secure the sleepers to the template and Butanone to secure the chairs to the sleepers. Is there a real problem ballasting with the templates in place? If so, is there a better way of construction on the template allowing easy removal?
I have just received a bag of small chairs E4CH 203A from C&L which will reduce the amount of trimming required of some of the standard chairs.
On the flangeways, I shall check these carefully as I build the track. I have the full set of OO SF gauges.
I always start at the crossing V section and work outwards when building the templates.
Once again, many thanks.
Many thanks for your reply - sorry for the delay in responding.
I have used Copydex to secure the templates to cork underlay as Martin advised. This works well and I shall look at the ballasting options when I have finished the station throat. Martin suggests diluted Copydex which I shall try in a scrap area. I shall also try diluted PVA following the success on the foam backed wallpaper.
Building turnouts etc using chairs and other track components was a real challenge but I am learning techniques to make the process easier. For instance, I was getting through far too many insulated fishplates with bits flying off in all directions. I now use a spare sleeper, inserted between the track template sleepers to act as a guide when fitting them to the rail. Now, it is a rare occasion to lose a fishplate.
Thanks again,
Best wishes
Peter

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9th message | this message only posted: 1 Feb 2016 23:35
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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richard_t wrote: I've used crafting double-sided tape with some success in the past - the tape designed for pasting stuff into scrapbooks. These are designed to allow people to move stuff about in their scrapbooks, so don't have a lot of grip - but just enough grip.

The only trouble, as ever, is the cost - it's more expensive than normal double sided.

The stuff I have is "Scotch Scrapbooking Tape", 34-8700-9324-1, and came from either HobbyCraft or Staples, here in the UK.  Here's the link to it on Scotch's webite:

http://www.scotchbrand.com/3M/en_US/scotch-brand/products/catalog/~/Scotch-Double-Sided-Removable-Scrapbooking-Tape?N=4335+3294529207+3294603433&rt=rud

 
[edit: to remove incorrect link to Amazon]
Thanks Richard, sorry for the delay in replying. I shall look at this option for when I build individual turnout templates.
Best wishes
Peter
__________
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10th message | this message only posted: 2 Feb 2016 06:39
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from:
Borg-Rail
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Hi,
As far as tiebars are concerned, have you considered Masokits? Normally for P4 or EM but can just about be used with 00.

__________
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11th message | this message only posted: 2 Feb 2016 08:32
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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For building track, I stick the templates down off site (on a piece of MDF, using magic tape around the edges; could also use double-sided tape for extra stability). I then lay strips of double-sided tape over the templates, bottom side still with protective covering, also fixing these with magic tape on the ends and in places around the edges. So long as you can see through the double-sided tape to the templates you can then lay the timbers in position on top of the double-sided tape.

When the track-work is finished, cut through the double-sided tape adjacent to the magic tape and then you can lift the trackwork, strip of the backing and lay. The double sided tape keeps the trackwork fairly rigid even with the backing peeled off. You have to be fairly careful when laying the track on the layout because once it's stuck it's not easy to reposition.

This is in 3mm/ft. In larger scales of course you're dealing with larger chunks of track, which may be more awkward.

Cheers
Nigel
__________
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12th message | this message only posted: 2 Feb 2016 10:33
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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Nigel Brown wrote: For building track, I stick the templates down off site (on a piece of MDF, using magic tape around the edges; could also use double-sided tape for extra stability). I then lay strips of double-sided tape over the templates, bottom side still with protective covering, also fixing these with magic tape on the ends and in places around the edges. So long as you can see through the double-sided tape to the templates you can then lay the timbers in position on top of the double-sided tape.

When the track-work is finished, cut through the double-sided tape adjacent to the magic tape and then you can lift the trackwork, strip of the backing and lay. The double sided tape keeps the trackwork fairly rigid even with the backing peeled off. You have to be fairly careful when laying the track on the layout because once it's stuck it's not easy to reposition.

This is in 3mm/ft. In larger scales of course you're dealing with larger chunks of track, which may be more awkward.

Cheers
Nigel
Thanks for your input to this thread Nigel. Another piece of information to use when building individual templates :D.What i have found is that in complex junctions where timber shoving has taken place, I have to build the trackwork as one block. Rail joints are staggered to suit the trackwork and timbers have been omitted from some of the turnout templates. This includes important timbers to support the common crossings etc. which are now part of lengthened/rotated timbers on other templates. When I start on the goods yards etc. I shall not have these constraints.When I first started out in this type of construction, I had not appreciated how strong the trackwork assemblies are. Several times I considered going back to soldered construction but I am glad I resisted the temptation. I had a difficulty with a particular Common Crossing/Wing Rail combination and rebuilt this with all the other trackwork in place - something that is difficult with solder construction but very easy with chair construction.Best wishes
Peter
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13th message | this message only posted: 2 Feb 2016 10:35
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from:
PeterD
Waterlooville, United Kingdom

 

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Borg-Rail wrote: Hi,
As far as tiebars are concerned, have you considered Masokits? Normally for P4 or EM but can just about be used with 00.
Thanks for this. I am now reading about these on other forums.
Best wishes
Peter
__________
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