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page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Baffled beginners > sleeper interlacing - Midland Railway stretcher bars
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                                       sleeper interlacing - Midland Railway stretcher bars
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1st message | this message only posted: 4 Feb 2016 09:01
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from:
Tim Lee
London, United Kingdom

 

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Hi,

I am slowly trying to get to grips with the basics.

One thing I am struggling a bit with is how to interlace the sleepers after inserting a turn out (see file attachment).

Is there a tutorial for this?

Regards

Tim
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Attachment: trackpad_screenshot_2016_02_04_0852_27.png (Downloaded 145 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 4 Feb 2016 12:50
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Tim Lee wrote: One thing I am struggling a bit with is how to interlace the sleepers after inserting a turnout.Hi Tim,

There are several ways of proceeding. Generally you need to shove some of the timbers, and/or roll in a shorter length of rail. For best results that usually means rolling in a full rail and then rolling a bit of it back out.

I notice that you are using 45ft rails with 12" joint sleepers. So I'm guessing you are modelling pre-grouping practice? In which case you may prefer to swap the timbering style to equalized incremental which generally makes timber shoving easier (although it doesn't make a lot of difference in this case).

I have made a short bit of scruff video showing these options. No editing done, this is a scruff video as recorded with my mouse fumblings. :(

It's attached below and should open in the Templot video player. Press the SPACE bar to stop/start at any frame.

If on a Mac computer it may not play, so here is the same thing in the awful fuzzy Apple MP4 format which should play on any device. Click it to stop-start at any frame:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=iDq77LX4vlQLB6yDxFSRpg2

regards,

Martin.

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Attachment: scruffy_shove.fbr (Downloaded 106 times)
 
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3rd message | this message only posted: 4 Feb 2016 14:27
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from:
Tim Lee
London, United Kingdom

 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Tim Lee wrote: One thing I am struggling a bit with is how to interlace the sleepers after inserting a turnout.Hi Tim,

There are several ways of proceeding. Generally you need to shove some of the timbers, and/or roll in a shorter length of rail. For best results that usually means rolling in a full rail and then rolling a bit of it back out.

I notice that you are using 45ft rails with 12" joint sleepers. So I'm guessing you are modelling pre-grouping practice? In which case you may prefer to swap the timbering style to equalized incremental which generally makes timber shoving easier (although it doesn't make a lot of difference in this case).

I have made a short bit of scruff video showing these options. No editing done, this is a scruff video as recorded with my mouse fumblings. :(

It's attached below and should open in the Templot video player. Press the SPACE bar to stop/start at any frame.

If on a Mac computer it may not play, so here is the same thing in the awful fuzzy Apple MP4 format which should play on any device. Click it to stop-start at any frame:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=iDq77LX4vlQLB6yDxFSRpg2

regards,

Martin.


Hi Martin,

Thanks a lot .... brilliant and simple .... very impressed with templet so far.

I am modelling the Midland Circa 1900 ... Monsal Dale Station.

This is a first try to get a simple section to practice track building hopefully to be used as a test track. If the track building goes well I shall then try to overlay the Mensal Dale track plan and see how I get on.

On the off chance ... you wouldn't have any ideas where I might look for some prototype information/drawing/photo which would tell be what the tie and stretcher bar config would have been in this era?

Regards

Tim
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4th message | this message only posted: 4 Feb 2016 15:36
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Tim Lee wrote:On the off chance ... you wouldn't have any ideas where I might look for some prototype information/drawing/photo which would tell be what the tie and stretcher bar config would have been in this era?Hi Tim,

Most pre-group companies used forged round bars as stretcher bars, fitted into holes in the switch blades and secured with cotter pins or wedge keys. Usually there would be two such stretcher bars. This Midland Railway drawing shows that:
 


Sorry I don't have any information about the drive arrangements.

Sorry I don't have any more info about your specific location or period.

Your best bet is probably the Midland Railway Study Centre in Derby:

 http://midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk

They are likely to have a better quality version of the above drawing, or direct you to where to find it.

Also the HMRS Study Centre at Swanwick Junction is in Midland territory and likely to have material:

 http://hmrs.org.uk/museumstudycentre/

regards,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 4 Feb 2016 16:04
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Tim Lee
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Thanks Martin ... the drawing is really useful. I have asked the question of the MR Study Centre .... so we will see what comes back. Its a shame I live too far away to pop in as I am sure a couple of hours trawling through the collection would be productive.

Regards

Tim
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6th message | this message only posted: 4 Feb 2016 16:30
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Tim,

Just to explain the drawing. The tapered pin is fitted through the switch blade from the back. It is then inserted through a collar (or sometimes into a full tapered socket) which is forged into the end of the stretcher bar. The wedge key is then driven through the slot in the pin to secure it, and pull the taper tight into the collar.

Sometimes the pin has an extended head which runs through holes in the stock rail. This ensures that the switch blades are held down onto the slide chairs and unable to kick up under traffic.

The leading stretcher bar would usually have a lug or collar forged into the lower part to which the drive connections would be attached. That's not shown on the bar drawing, and only sketched on the plan:



The full scan of that plan is here:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/gallery/2/original/2_191726_470000001.jpg

regards,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 4 Feb 2016 16:46
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Tim Lee
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Martin,

Thanks a hundred times .... this is fantastic.

Now the head scratching starts (as no doubt it has done of many before me!) However I was encouraged by Chris Gough's efforts on Cadhay sidings ... so perhaps there is hope.

I note there is no switch anchor on the drawing?

Regards

Tim
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Tim Lee wrote:I note there is no switch anchor on the drawing?Hi Tim,

Switch anchors are used to prevent the switch blade creeping forward. It's important that the tip is kept behind the set or joggle in the stock rail and can't creep in front of it.

For the reason there is no switch anchor on the drawing, contact the Midland Railway drawing office ... :)

Anchors were not universal at this time. Early pointwork often looks quite flimsy compared to modern high-speed junctions.

regards,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 4 Feb 2016 19:42
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Martin Wynne
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Hi Tim,

I have found this scan of Midland Railway stretcher bars. I don't know where it came from, so apologies if it is infringing someone's copyright.

It is obviously from an early date, because the rail inclination is shown as 1:22 instead of 1:20.



A full-size scan is at:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/gallery/2/original/2_041435_200000000.jpg

regards,

Martin..

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10th message | this message only posted: 4 Feb 2016 20:20
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Tim Lee
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Thanks Martin,

That's a very nice drawing.

Tim
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11th message | this message only posted: 5 Feb 2016 13:15
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David R
Hatfield Heath, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: Sometimes the pin has an extended head which runs through holes in the stock rail. This ensures that the switch blades are held down onto the slide chairs and unable to kick up under traffic.
This extended head would also prevent longitudinal movement of the switch blades thus rendering switch anchors unnecessary.
Dave R
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Tim Lee
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That make sense.

Tim
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Tony W
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Hi Tim.
You may find the following pictures of interest. They show the switch blades of a 3 throw turnout at Butterley at the Midland Railway Centre. Although these are a special case, the operating components appear to be pretty standard. The two rods attached nearest to the tips of the blades are the operating rods connected to point levers in this case.
Regards
Tony W.




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14th message | this message only posted: 5 Feb 2016 23:54
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Tim Lee
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Thanks Tony,

Excellent pictures .... very interesting and much appreciated.

Regards

Tim
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15th message | this message only posted: 12 Oct 2017 09:50
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Tim Lee
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I have a quick question on sleeper placement. When you have parallel running lines (up and down routes) is there a tendency to adjust the sleeper positions so that the positions mirror each other ... I have seen this on a fair few photos but wondered if this was coincidence of by design.

Tim
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Tony W
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Tim Lee wrote: I have a quick question on sleeper placement. When you have parallel running lines (up and down routes) is there a tendency to adjust the sleeper positions so that the positions mirror each other ... I have seen this on a fair few photos but wondered if this was coincidence of by design.

Tim
Hi Tim. It would obviously make sense where point rodding and signal wires need to pass under the tracks, but otherwise I would have thought not. It may well have been down to the head ganger and how fussy he was. The relative position of the rail joints would also have a bearing on this. In our case baseboard joints will be a major consideration.
Regards
Tony.

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17th message | this message only posted: 12 Oct 2017 20:20
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Tim Lee
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Thanks Tony ... makes sense
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Tim,

In the case of curved track it is physically impossible. The outer track is longer than the inner track, but the rail lengths and sleeper spacings remain the same. So the position of the joints and sleepers would get increasingly out of step as you move along the curve.

Here you can see that on a sharp curve the joints get out of step very quickly, starting from being in line on the left:



On long straight tracks it would be possible to align the rail joints and spacings, but there is no reason to do that and it would be a lot of extra work -- it's likely that shortened rails would be needed on one track or the other at the start of the straight. It would be necessary to align the joints because the sleeper spacings are not constant within a rail length, being closed up towards the joints at each end of the rail. 

regards,

Martin.

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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Tim,

In the case of curved track it is physically impossible. The outer track is longer than the inner track, but the rail lengths and sleeper spacings remain the same. So the position of the joints and sleepers would get increasingly out of step as you move along the curve.

regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin.
Yes, I did consider that. The big difference between the real railways and our models is the degree of curvature. Real railways tend to curve in one direction and then curve back again as they head across the countryside, so what goes out of line will come back into line again at some point, albeit briefly. Our models tend to either be largely straight or go round in circles, which would be the worst case scenario. I agree that on the whole it would be more trouble than it is worth and apart from special situations is probably more by coincidence than by design. Any pointwork will also have an influence.
Incidentally it should be noted that rail lengths were often laid to avoid having a joint above short under bridges as the hammer blows could potentially damage the structure and these would tend to align the track panels at these locations and by implication for some distance either side. What they did on longer bridges I am not sure as rail joints on the structure would be unavoidable.
Regards
Tony.

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Tim Lee
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I think that the main reason for the question is that often when I look at trackwork after either a crossover or slip leading of to a siding and head shunt the sleeper positions superficially look as if they have been adjusted to make sleepers and joints align as the twin tracks head towards the signal box. I fully admit there is nothing thorough or scientific and it may well be either coincidence or even not true (just looks that way from a distance). I just wondered if it might have been common practice to simplify rodding runs.

Tim:)
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Martin Wynne
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Hi Tim,

I think for rodding runs in plain track it is more likely that individual sleepers would be shoved along a bit, rather than adjust entire rail lengths and joint positions. But rodding runs can be significant in the design of timbering layouts for complex junctions, where timber positions are fixed by the chairing requirements.

Tony's point about keeping rail joints away from structures beneath the track is significant I think. If the rail lengths and joints are adjusted to do that, it would likely align the sleepers on double track. If the track is reasonably straight, they could remain aligned for some distance on each side.

There are a great many small bridges and culverts beneath the track, often poorly recorded. This RAIB report is about the collapse of one such which had a CWR expansion joint immediately above it:   

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/410854/120322_R052012_Bromsgrove.pdf

See also this response:

 https://www.newcivilengineer.com/rail-culvert-collapse-triggers-safety-fears/8628390.article

regards,

Martin.

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22nd message | this message only posted: 19 Oct 2017 10:16
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Tim Lee
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Tony W wrote: Hi Tim.
You may find the following pictures of interest. They show the switch blades of a 3 throw turnout at Butterley at the Midland Railway Centre. Although these are a special case, the operating components appear to be pretty standard. The two rods attached nearest to the tips of the blades are the operating rods connected to point levers in this case.
Regards
Tony W.



Tony,
I hope you don't mind me returning to this post for a little further clarification of what I am looking at ... I confess the more I look at it the more muddled I get. 

No longer necessary ... someone has kindly explained things.
Attached is an image of a period MR 3 way turnout for comparison ... the point rodding attachment is quite clear I think .... and I am assuming it would be the same if attached to a crank rather than a lever.

Tim


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Tony W
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Hi Tim. That picture is quite unusual. Normally on a three throw turnout the shorter blades are between the long switch blade and the stock rail. This means a flange has only one one switch blade tip to negotiate rather than two thus reducing the risk of derailment. Perhaps they learned the hard way.
Tony.
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Tim Lee
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Tony W wrote: Hi Tim. That picture is quite unusual. Normally on a three throw turnout the shorter blades are between the long switch blade and the stock rail. This means a flange has only one one switch blade tip to negotiate rather than two thus reducing the risk of derailment. Perhaps they learned the hard way.
Tony.
As the 'dark arts' of the 3 way turn out are not something I am contemplating grappling with at present I shall log this for later study. 
Its the rodding connection I was particularly interested in. From what I have found both in the image above and also in 'Midland Railway Portrait' plate 107, I am assuming that the connection would have been the 180 degree 'hook' arrangement to just the nearest blade, with the independent stretcher bars keeping all rigid and moving together? I assume there would have been no difference between lever actuation and the connection to a rodding crank linked back to the signal frame?
Tim

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Hi Tim, Tony,

More pics of a Midland 3-throw switch and stretcher bars here:
 
 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2291&forum_id=11#p15251

Click the pics to see the high-resolution originals.

The high-res version of the GER drawing is here:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/gallery/2/original/2_280950_180000000.jpg

regards,

Martin.



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Tony W
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Hi Tim.
As Three throws are a special case, I would not like to infer that only one blade was connected to the control rodding for a standard turnout. General practice seems to be that the control rod was connected at the same place as a tie bar in order to control the amount of blade movement and hence the open tip gap. What the Midland specifically did needs someone with more specialist knowledge than I. I know the Midland avoided them like the plague, but arranging a facing point lock without a tie bar at the switch blade tips would be difficult.
Regards
Tony.

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Martin Wynne
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Hi Tim,

Here is a drawing of a MR 15ft switch. It shows the rodding connection attached to the front stretcher rod as a dashed line:
 


High-res version of this here:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/gallery/2/original/2_191021_380000001.png

Here is the text from Allen (1915) which explains that there is "in all cases" a lug on the front stretcher rod to act as a pull rod:



Lots more there about the design of the stretcher rod fixings and cotter pins if you want it?

regards,

Martin.

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Tim Lee
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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Tim,

Here is a drawing of a MR 15ft switch. It shows the rodding connection attached to the front stretcher rod as a dashed line:
 


High-res version of this here:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/gallery/2/original/2_191021_380000001.png

Here is the text from Allen (1915) which explains that there is "in all cases" a lug on the front stretcher rod to act as a pull rod:



Lots more there about the design of the stretcher rod fixings and cotter pins if you want it?

regards,

Martin.
Thank you Martin,
That would appear pretty definitive ... particularly as it mentions the Midland by name in referring to the Midland 15ft switch.

The thing which threw me was that there was no reference to lugs on the stretcher bar drawings and prototype photos from the period seem few and far between.

One of the few I have turned up to date is this one.
  

As you see the actuation is not attached to the stretcher bar but rather is a separate bar turned through 180 degrees similar to the three way turn out actuation I posted earlier. Should I assume that this was only used for lever actuation?

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Hi Tim,

Well clearly, when Allen said "in all cases" he didn't mean that one. Or this tandem, where the rodding on the left doesn't seem to line up with either stretcher rod.



Sorry, I don't know where it is or which company.

I can't see any reason why the arrangement would be different for hand levers from that for rodded operation. There might be a difference between passenger lines and goods lines and yards. In the former case there would also be the detector rods, attached to the actual blades. That would mean making switch blades with 3 fixing holes, so if detection is not needed, using the spare hole for a drive connection might be a simple alternative.

regards,

Martin.

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from:
Tim Lee
London, United Kingdom

 

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You wouldn't happen to have a picture or diagram of how detection worked ...another hole in my knowledge! I assume that Monsal Dale being mainline would have had detection in 1902?

The other thing I have also wondered ... and again as a caveat i may be showing my lack of knowledge here .... because there is a goods siding and a lie by loop at Monsal Dale, would there have been any catch points?
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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi Tim.
Assumption is always dangerous because sooner or later someone will prove you wrong!
Tony.
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John Shelley
St Ciers Sur Gironde 33820, France



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Tony W wrote: Hi Tim.
Assumption is always dangerous because sooner or later someone will prove you wrong!
Tony.

Tony,
Are you assuming that?  :cool:

John, from St Ciers, formerly Harrow.

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Tim Lee
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Tony W wrote: Hi Tim.
Assumption is always dangerous because sooner or later someone will prove you wrong!
Tony.
I'm Learning that one fast :?
I know I won't get a definitive answer, just hoping to establish what would have been the most likely condition for my particular model :thumb:

I wish someone could turn up a drawing or better still a photographic example of the lug connection on the front stretcher rod which is a Midland example .... I have examples for other companies. All I have at the moment is a dotted line on the switch drawing  and a definitive text entry which is then directly contradicted by the examples posted - which definitely don't attach to the stretcher bar.  :shock:

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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Tim Lee wrote: You wouldn't happen to have a picture or diagram of how detection worked ...another hole in my knowledge! I assume that Monsal Dale being mainline would have had detection in 1902?Hi Tim,

Here is a scan from Raynar Wilson, 1904.

This is the combined "economical" facing point lock and detector used on the MR. It is interesting that the detector rod is attached to only one switch blade, and there is no detection of the lock position.

I see Mick Nicholson has posted a similar scan on RMweb while I was scanning this. :)




regards,

Martin.

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Tim Lee
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may be a stupid question ... but is detection only required on facing points?
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Tim Lee wrote: may be a stupid question ... but is detection only required on facing points?Hi Tim,

No. Ground signals controlling movements over trailing crossovers are often connected through detectors.

There are some great photos of ground signals and detectors from Mick Nicholson in this RMweb topic:

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/84244-lner-signals-controlling-movement-from-sidings-to-running-lines/#entry1407888

regards,

Martin.

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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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John Shelley wrote: Tony W wrote: Hi Tim.
Assumption is always dangerous because sooner or later someone will prove you wrong!
Tony.

Tony,
Are you assuming that?  :cool:

John, from St Ciers, formerly Harrow.
Hi John.
A lifetime of bitter experience. It is not an infallible rule of course, but the odds do seem to go that way.
Regards
Tony.

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Tim Lee
London, United Kingdom

 

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John Shelley wrote: Tony W wrote: Hi Tim.
Assumption is always dangerous because sooner or later someone will prove you wrong!
Tony.

Tony,
Are you assuming that?  :cool:

John, from St Ciers, formerly Harrow.
Ahha!  I see what you did there  :D :roll:
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from:
Ariels Girdle
 

 

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Here's a fantastically detailed picture of Basford (MR) in 1922 showing rodding runs, turnouts, point detector etc. Maybe of use?
You can probably get a better copy from the NRM - ref DY12483


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Tim Lee
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That's a great picture come what may and going straight in my folder ....  :thumb:
I found this one, which to me also suggests that the rodding doesn't link directly to the stretched bars, though one would need a higher res image to be certain?

Tim
What I think I am seeing is what I assume is a rod link to the ground signal from the front of the switch blade .... then the front stretcher bar, and then the actuation rod coming in to the switch blade adjacent to the front stretcher bar?

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