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                                       Modifying check rails on background templates to match the control template
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 22 Feb 2017 01:04
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from:
Rick
Australia

 

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Hi there fellow Temploters :
I'm spending time re-learning Templot after several years in the wilderness.
My dilemma / question relates to making changes made to the geometry of the current control template being reflected in the background turnout templates.

I have a turnout Control Template that I am adjusting as I go along and I want these alterations to turnout geometry to be reflected in the existing turnout Background Templates; for them to be updated too so all of them have the same geometry.

I can alter rails and timbers for all templates using the 'modify group to match' options under the real menu item. This works fine. However, when I try to alter the check and wing rail geometry using the real > adjust check rails menu item, I can't see any way to modify or update the other background turnout templates. There doesn't seem to be a 'modify group to match' option in this case.The attached file shows the options available in adjust check rails.

Am I missing something? Can I modify background templates without having to make changes to every turnout template manually?
Thanks and best regards,
Rick


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Attachment: No7.check.wing.rails.JPG (Downloaded 86 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 22 Feb 2017 16:36
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Rick,

This dialog, at real > adjust check rails... should perhaps have been called "shove check rails":



The intent is similar to the shoving of timbers, i.e. final adjustments which can be made to individual check rail ends when customizing a specific template -- usually when it is part of a complex formation comprised of multiple partial templates such as a tandem turnout.

Generally there should be no need to use this dialog when creating an ordinary single turnout. To set up the check and wing rail settings for that, you can click unadjusted settings... button on the above dialog, or more usually you would click this menu item:



Ideally you would do this at the start of a design project, because at present there is no "modify group to match" function for these settings, it will be necessary to modify each background template individually.  edit: There is now -- see messages below.
 
Which is tedious, because there are several settings to modify to accommodate the possible different V-crossing angles in the destination template. If there are no other significant differences from the control template, you may prefer to use the align functions and then delete the previous background template.

The check rail setting which can also do "modify group to match" is the swap between bent or machined check rail flares, which is in the real > rails > menu options. Note however that this will have no effect on a rail end if its flare type has been changed in the adjust check rails dialog above.

regards,

Martin.


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3rd message | this message only posted: 22 Feb 2017 21:54
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from:
Rick
Australia

 

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G'day Martin :
All that you say makes perfect sense.
I think it became clear to me very early on when first setting up the geometry of my proposed On30 turnout template that it would have to be pretty close to final specs before an entire switching layout was designed around it in order to avoid this exact problem.  However as I've progressed I realised that the check and wing rails were too long and needed to be shortened up ... hence looking for an option to change the turnouts already created.

I will use the wing-rail and check-rail dimensions dialogue to set up my turnout properly as suggested.
I will learn how to use the align tool to overlay the amended template onto the offending ones and replace them. 

Thanks again for the time to answer my question.  A perfect answer.

Best regards,
Rick

I think that Templot is brilliant.

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4th message | this message only posted: 22 Feb 2017 22:03
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Rick,

The lack of "modify group to match" on the V-crossing customizing is an obvious omission.

So I will try to get this done in the next few days and release a program update.

regards,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 23 Feb 2017 18:17
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Rick,

I have completed the coding for this and will release 214b later tonight:




If you haven't yet converted your track plan, you may want to wait for this.

regards,

Martin.

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6th message | this message only posted: 23 Feb 2017 21:38
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from:
Rick
Australia

 

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Hi Martin :

I think it'll make a great plus if this option is made available.
I saw your last message just before I was going to start to modify each of the background templates, so I will wait for 214b and give it a burl.

Thanks again,
Rick
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7th message | this message only posted: 24 Feb 2017 04:14
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Rick,

Program update 214b now available. Templot will download and install it when you start Templot.

Let me know if you have any problems with modify group to match on the V-crossing customizing. I have tested it briefly, but a complete test of every setting would be too time-consuming for me at present. So make sure you have a backup copy of your .box file.

regards,

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 24 Feb 2017 14:15
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Rick,

Just to add -- if you have made adjustments on this dialog:



These adjustments will be ignored on the control template when modifying the group to match it, and if there are such adjustments existing on the group templates, they will over-ride the modified settings.

To cure all that, click the reset all button on that dialog for each template affected. Then set up the required dimensions at wing and check rails... here:



For more notes about all this and diagrams and details of the check rail terminology, see:

 http://templot.com/companion/check_and_wing_rails.html

(scroll down the page)

regards,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 25 Feb 2017 04:23
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from:
Rick
Australia

 

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Hi there Martin :
I've just spent a number of hours testing the updates and changes that you have made to the group modify options for customising the V-crossing as discussed in this thread and they work perfectly.  They are exactly as you said they would be and I think that Temploters will be very happy with the result.

So the key thing I've learnt here is to use the real > V-crossing > customise V-crossing > wing and check rails ... when setting up a "master" turnout geometry template and to only use the real > adjust check rails ... option when you want to make adjustments to individual turnouts already part of the layout design.

I've spent this time going through all of various ways and sequences of creating and altering the V-crossing rail geometry under the real menu item that I can think of.
My comments relate to turnout templates; plain templates are unaffected of course.
 


Intended Consequences of the Update :

Any alteration made to the Control Template geometry through the real > V-crossing > customise V-crossing > wing and check rails ... option is reflected in all stored templates after executing the modify group to match option. It works great! This was intended and is the purpose of this program update.

I can confirm that local changes made to the Control Template by real > adjust check rails ... are only reflected in that Control Template. They are not reflected in stored templates after executing the modify group to match option nor do they affect any stored templates that have had other local changes made through the real > adjust check rails ... option. This was intended.


Where there have been local changes made to the Control Template using the real > adjust check rails ... option, any further alterations made to that same template using the real > V-crossing > customise V-crossing > wing and check rails ... option will affect those local changes as follows after executing the modify group to match option.:
1. The wing-rail Reach will be changed to match the Control Template
2. The check-rail Extension Length will be changed to match the Control Template
3. All other local settings for wing- and check-rails remain unaltered.

This confirms your intention that the real > V-crossing > customise V-crossing > wing and check rails ... geometry options take precedence over any real > adjust check rails ... settings where they might conflict.




Unintended Consequences of the Update :
Nil. I can't find any.
I've tried various combinations of changes and sequences to the V-crossing geometry and can't find any issues that weren't intended.


So I think that this addition to Templot is great!
It makes sense to allow global updating to the V-crossing template detail settings just as there were modify group to match options for rail and timbering settings already available.

To me the most important lessons have been :

1. Create a "master" turnout template using the real > V-crossing > customise V-crossing > wing and check rails ... option before you embark on creating that vast railway empire design, use that template  to lay down your trackage, and only use the real > adjust check rails ... option to make local adjustments as necessary afterwards.
2. If the geometry of your various turnout templates gets to be a dog's dinner like mine did then the easiest thing to do is to reset the offending templates using the "reset all" option under real > adjust check rails ... , check and fix the setting you have made under the real > V-crossing > customise V-crossing > wing and check rails ... option, and then use the new modify group to match option to make all the other templates match.


Thanks again very much Martin for your efforts and work ... truly daunting but highly appreciated.

Best regards,
Rick
(back to the trackpad ...)

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10th message | this message only posted: 25 Feb 2017 05:32
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
That's great Rick. :)

Many thanks for testing it so exhaustively, and for taking the trouble to write it all down and report back.

I'm glad it's working as intended, and you can now continue your track planning.

regards,

Martin.

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