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page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Baffled beginners > Timber shoving
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                                       Timber shoving
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 23 Feb 2017 12:49
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from:
RK
United Kingdom

 

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Hi all,Im slowly getting the grasp of Timber Shoving, but I'm a little confused/baffled/not got a clue(!) as to which timbers should be shoved and/or rotated, and which should be shortened/lengthed or kept separately.

I don't have access to the PC laptop at the moment, so I've just taken a snapshot of the printed plan on my phone - shortly after realising I haven't shoved everything!  Can anyone give me some advice as to which timbers should be left as two separate ones, and which one I should start combining the two into one and pushing/rotating?

Any advice would be appreciated.  This picture is the left hand side of the crossing.

Rich

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2nd message | this message only posted: 23 Feb 2017 12:50
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from:
RK
United Kingdom

 

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And this one is the right hand side of the crossing, i.e. in reality sits ABOVE the previous picture
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3rd message | this message only posted: 24 Feb 2017 03:03
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DerekStuart
United Kingdom

 

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Hello Rich

Firstly, timbers under crossings and switches must remain in their original place as they have special chairs that are location specific. Likewise at rail joints the timbers cannot be moved too far apart (stress on rail) or too close (must leave space for the fishplate).

Also your chosen location/ railway operator and era will make a big difference to timbering, for example as I understand it the GWR used longer timbers right across the 4ft,6ft,4ft between the opposing A timbers whereas the (L)NER used shorter timbers.

I'm sure if you tell us your rail company and era there will be plenty of more specific advice.
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4th message | this message only posted: 24 Feb 2017 03:05
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from:
DerekStuart
United Kingdom

 

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Sorry, computer playing me up.

Broadly speaking, I would suggest starting with shoving the plain track sleepers before even considering moving the turnout timbers. Remember not to make too big a gap between sleepers- especially at rail joints.
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5th message | this message only posted: 24 Feb 2017 10:33
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from:
RK
United Kingdom

 

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Hi Derek,
Thanks for your reply. It's based on GC/LNER practice.

Rich
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6th message | this message only posted: 24 Feb 2017 23:56
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Rich,

This is a typical result:
 

 
You could argue that only 4 long timbers would have been enough, although the GWR did tend to use more than most companies.

The basic rule is that you can't move the special chairs, i.e. any chair which supports more than one rail. They will fit the rails in only one position. So you must arrange the timbers so that there is timber under those positions.
 
This is OK - the "A" chair supporting the crossing nose is on a timber:
 

 
 
This is not OK, there is no timber under the "A" chair:
 

 
More about these diagrams here:
 
 http://85a.co.uk/for...2&page=2#p20949
 
See also these search results:
 
 http://templot.com/z...e=10&zoom_and=1
 
regards,
 
Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 26 Feb 2017 01:06
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from:
RK
United Kingdom

 

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Thanks Martin,
Thats my task for tomorrow hopefully! Really grateful thanks for the help.

Rich
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8th message | this message only posted: 27 Feb 2017 00:51
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from:
DerekStuart
United Kingdom

 

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Hello Rich

If you are looking at LNER can I suggest buying the track books from the NER society?

I don't know what the GC was like pre-grouping, but post grouping you might find the books useful.

The photo on the link below is of LNER era Kings Cross- the bottom right is a C9 crossing. It's not the clearest for the timbers but you can see there aren't many (if any) full width timbers. I will have a look at the NERA manual tomorrow for you if it's any help.
http://www.mediastorehouse.com/railway-tracks-kings-cross-aa073103/print/933513.html
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9th message | this message only posted: 27 Feb 2017 23:35
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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The LNER did seem to be rather parsimonious with long timbers, only using them as far as the special chairs went and then using ordinary sleepers to infill as the Kings Cross picture shows, a practice that continued into BR eastern region days with early Flatbottom track as well.
I have a rather more fundamental concern with Richard's Crossover, regarding the track spacing as the two tracks look rather close to me and if so this needs to be sorted before doing anything else. It may just be down to the angle at which the picture was taken causing distortion in the posted image.
Regards
Tony.

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10th message | this message only posted: 27 Feb 2017 23:52
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Tony W wrote: The LNER did seem to be rather parsimonious with long timbersHi Tony,

It's important to notice that the commonly-referenced crossover timbering in the NERA reprints of the LNER 1926 standards are specifically marked "SHORT Timbering For Crossover Roads".

It's clear that those reprints are incomplete, and this "Short" titling suggests that there were also some other "Long" or "Standard" timbering diagrams, and that these "Short" diagrams were probably intended for economy in yards or low-speed locations.

I suspect that in many cases the LNER used just as many long timber as say shown by David Smith in his GWR book, but that the LNER just didn't like paying for them. :)

Those LNER "Short" diagrams look just too flimsy to me for heavy-traffic locations and high-speed junctions -- there has to be a reason that other companies used more long timbers.

regards,

Martin.

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11th message | this message only posted: 1 Mar 2017 17:32
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin.
I would certainly agree that there must be a reason why some companies used more long timbers than others, it is obviously stronger. The LNER and the ER of BR from photos and in the later case observation did seem reluctant to used more long timbers than it thought strictly necessary. The picture below is of a Flatbottom D-9 taken around 1960 and only uses long timbers under the special baseplates, the 3 beyond the wing rails, whereas the standard BR practice was to use long timbers up to and including the one beyond the rail joints ala GWR practice.


Note that the diverging road is Bullhead.
Below is a Templot version of it.


Regards
Tony.

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12th message | this message only posted: 1 Mar 2017 19:44
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Tony,

Here is the FB timbering chart from BRT3. This refers to straight-planed (i.e. semi-curved) switches, so this would be for the original inclined FB-109 replacements for bullhead.

You may like to see how this compares with your D-9. 



Comparing this with the standard REA bullhead turnouts in Templot, you will notice that Templot is a bit more generous with timber in places than this chart requires. This reflects the general practice in bullhead days.   

The design rule seems to be that timbers were available up to 15ft long for use in turnouts, and at 19ft-6in or 20ft for spanning double track in crossovers. Longer timber lengths up to 30ft could be specially ordered, or created on site by means of halving and splicing.

Of course it is up to the designer to decide what lengths to use in a given case.

In Templot the crossing timbers run up to the vee rail joints, with plain sleepering beyond (unless the real > timbering > exit track setting is changed).

In some shorter crossings this causes the 15ft limit to be exceeded in Templot, for example a 1:5 crossing in Templot has the longest timber at 15ft-6in.

To confuse the issue, this drawing of a 1:8 BH crossing from BRT3 shows an extra 15ft timber beyond the vee rail joint (and the lengths don't match the FB chart above):



There was good reason to include all the timber-shoving functions. :)

regards,

Martin.

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