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topic: 299NER sleepered single junctions
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posted: 4 Jan 2008 20:10

from:

Bob Ellis
 
 

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Hi Martin,

Several months ago you were kind enough to create a North Eastern Railway 1:8 sleepered single junction template for me, which I have found very useful. The conversion of my garage into a bespoke railway room is now nearly complete and I want to get down to finalising the design of the layout that will go into it. This will be a pre-grouping NER layout in P4, so I have started trying to produce my own single junctions to various sizes between 1:6.25 and 1:8.75. I can produce the V-crossing I want and I can create the correct sizes of sleepers and shove them into position, but I am not sure what to do about the switch. I know NER switches were non-standard and I presume I therefore need to construct a custom switch. There are tables in the NER Permanent Way Standards that give me the length of switch for each angle of single junction, but I am unsure about whether I need any other information and about how to construct the custom switch. Any help you could offer would be much appreciated.

Best wishes for 2008,

Bob Ellis

P.S. Is there anything else that I need to do to create prototypical NER single junctions other than set the V-crossing angle, construct a custom switch and adjust the sleepering? For instance, do I need to alter the check rails?

posted: 10 Jan 2008 17:44

from:

Bob Ellis
 
 

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Hi Martin,

Perhaps you missed my last message - I can imagine how busy you must be! I have been trying to convert the NER 1:8 interlaced single junction you produced for me last March (Message 8030) to different dimensions so that I can produce a track plan for the NER layout I am about to start building. I can change the V-crossing angle and shove the timbers. I also know the length of switch needed for each angle of junction, but the switch is a custom switch. Are there any other characteristics of the switch besides the length that need to be changed? Is there anything else that needs to be changed besides the switch, the crossing angles and the timbers?

You suggested in Message 8716 on 17 May 2007 that you might produce a video to show how to convert the 1:8 single junction with a 15ft switch to a 1:10 single junction with a 17'6" switch. I have found your other videos very informative, so it would be really helpful, if you could find the time to produce one showing which characteristics need changing to convert the 15ft-8 to a 17ft 6in-10.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Best wishes,

Bob Ellis

posted: 10 Jan 2008 18:37

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Bob Ellis wrote:
Hi Martin, Perhaps you missed my last message
Hi Bob,

Not missed -- it's on my to-do list. :)

I try to prioritise answers on the basis of how many users are likely to find it helpful. In this case you are asking for several hours work which will interest only a handful of users. :( I know there are a few other NER modellers who have already been through this, so I was hoping they might join in.

But I promised a video ages ago and I will move it up the list. Sorry about the delay.

In the meantime, it is in fact all in Templot. All you need is the NERA drawing.

Make the existing NER template the current/control template.

Go to template > switch options...

Scroll to the bottom of the list and click it.

Click  the show switch info button.

Click the stay visible button and then continue.

(In 091b cick the options... button and then make stay-visible copy.)

Now you have that information available for reference while you refer to the drawing and enter the new data for the next switch size. It's convenient to widen the stay-visible window (drag the border).

Scroll back to custom slot 2 and click it.

Click the set custom switch... button.

Cick enter new custom switch for slot 2.

Enter the new data. Everything is explained if you click every button and bar in sight labelled "help" or "more information" or "F1" or "F2".

(If you are using 091b there is a bug which may cause some of the help notes to display strangely.)

Video shortly.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 10 Jan 2008 19:21

from:

Bob Ellis
 
 

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Hi Martin,

Thanks very much. I shall work through your advice this afternoon using the information in the NER PW Standards Book. If I can work it out from this, then the video might not be necessary (unless others require it, of course). I shall let you know how I get on.

Best wishes,

Bob

posted: 15 Jan 2008 20:19

from:

Bob Ellis
 
 

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In trying to produce a custom switch for a North Eastern Railway single junction, I need to insert a value for the 'Offset at Heel'. The help notes state that this is normally 4.5 inches for loose-heel switches and 10-11 inches for flexible switches. The NER did not appear to use the terms 'loose-heel' and 'flexible': it refers to 'heel switches' and 'heel-less or spring switches'.

Would I be correct in assuming that heel switches are synonymous with loose-heel and that heel-less or spring switches are the same as flexible switches? :?

In what circumstances would each type of switch have been used on the NER?

In a trawl through the NER Permanent Way Standards for 1912 and my other notes and references I can find no mention of a value for 'Offset at Heel'. Would the 4.5 inches for loose-heel switches and 10-11 inches for flexible switches apply in the case of NER trackwork?

10-11 inches is an imprecise figure. is there any way of determining a precise value?

Best wishes,

Bob Ellis

posted: 15 Jan 2008 21:10

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Bob, 
Would I be correct in assuming that heel switches are synonymous with loose-heel and that heel-less or spring switches are the same as flexible switches? :?
Yes.

In what circumstances would each type of switch have been used on the NER?
That's a question I asked you about 6 months ago! I suspect that the flexible switches might be used on timbered junctions and loose-heel switches on sleepered junctions. But I don't have any actual knowledge on the subject. Mick Nicholson might. Mick? Generally loose-heel switches are the older types, and flexible switches the latest thing in 1912. :)

In a trawl through the NER Permanent Way Standards for 1912 and my other notes and references I can find no mention of a value for 'Offset at Heel'.
The drawings show a heel clearance of 2". Add on the rail-top width. For 95lb rail that's 2.3/4". So the heel offset (heel spread) is 4.75". That figure is the same for all sizes of switch, both loose-heel and flexible. (If you look at the Templot data for the 15ft switch as I suggested, you will see the heel offset showing as 4.75".)

The NER flexible switches appear to be geometrically interchangeable with the loose-heel switches. Which makes sense for renewals, of course. Hence the previous question.

For 85lb rail, the rail-top width is 2.11/16". So assuming 2" clearance the heel offset for 85lb is 4.69". You may have 85lb rail in the yard?

Would the 4.5 inches for loose-heel switches and 10-11 inches for flexible switches apply in the case of NER trackwork?
No, those figures are for the loose-heel switches listed in BRT and the REA flexible switches.

p.s. I haven't forgotten the video.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 Jan 2008 22:58

from:

Bob Ellis
 
 

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Hi Martin,

Thanks for your very useful and informative reply. My apologies for forgetting that the question about which switches were used in which circumstances was raised six months ago - one of my increasingly frequent senior moments. :( 

On the basis of your explanation - unless Mick can add anything - it seems likely that the switches at Leyburn in 1911 were all loose-heeled, so I shall work on that assumption. No changes to the track formation had been made at Leyburn for several years and, while it is possible that some replacement of worn out track took place around then, the NER tended to relay the Hawes branch with second-hand track components from the main line, where they had been replaced by more modern installations, which seems to suggest loose-heel switches for Leyburn.

I think the goods yard and the engine depot were probably laid with 85lb rail at that date, so the information
For 85lb rail, the rail-top width is 2.11/16". So assuming 2" clearance the heel offset for 85lb is 4.69". You may have 85lb rail in the yard?
is most welcome.

Now to have another go at producing that 1:10 sleepered single junction. The fact that my railway room is nearing completion (plastering begins tomorrow), is giving me fresh impetus to master this and produce the track plan. I shall try to keep the questions to a minimum, because I know how busy you are, but I am sure there will be more!

Best wishes,

Bob Ellis

posted: 17 Jan 2008 00:25

from:

Bob Ellis
 
 

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Hi Martin,

Following two more Templot sessions, I have made some progress with custom switches, but I have some more questions.

1. I know that the stock-rail joint to toe distance on a 1:8 single junction with a 15ft switch is 46 ft., but I can't find any details in the NER Standards Book of this dimension for other lengths of switches. Where would I find or how would I calculate this dimension?

2. In the NER Standards Book, the length of the switch rail is marked on the 1:8 sleepered single junction diagram as 26ft, but I cannot find any table of switch lengths for other sizes of single junction. Where would I find or how would I calculate this dimension?

3. Would the joggle be the same on all NER loose-heel switches?

4. Is it best to ignore the sleeper spacings on the custom switch menu and shove the sleepers into position after having produced the new single junction and made it the current template?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Best wishes,

Bob Ellis

posted: 17 Jan 2008 03:52

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Bob Ellis wrote:
1. I know that the stock-rail joint to toe distance on a 1:8 single junction with a 15ft switch is 46 ft., but I can't find any details in the NER Standards Book of this dimension for other lengths of switches. Where would I find or how would I calculate this dimension?

2. In the NER Standards Book, the length of the switch rail is marked on the 1:8 sleepered single junction diagram as 26ft, but I cannot find any table of switch lengths for other sizes of single junction. Where would I find or how would I calculate this dimension?

3. Would the joggle be the same on all NER loose-heel switches?

4. Is it best to ignore the sleeper spacings on the custom switch menu and shove the sleepers into position after having produced the new single junction and made it the current template?

Hi Bob,

The rail lengths are marked on the rails in the drawings of the heel-less flexible switches.

But you have just drawn my attention to the fact that the sleepered junction drawing is shown with a 15ft heel-less flexible switch. There is a note "As an alternative 15ft heel switches may be used". Which means my idea yesterday that the loose-heel switches were used on the sleepered junctions was wrong. We don't seem to have any information about where the different types of switches were used. Nor about where timbered junctions were used rather than sleepered. It surely can't be just at random? There must be someone in NERA who can help on this?

Don't use timber shoving for switches -- that's what the custom switch settings are for.

When I've dealt with a mountain of email on the other screen I will start on your video.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 18 Jan 2008 22:06

from:

Bob Ellis
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
The rail lengths are marked on the rails in the drawings of the heel-less flexible switches.

I had seen these but ignored them because I assumed I was trying to produce loose-heel switches. However, as you said:
There is a note "As an alternative 15ft heel switches may be used". Which means my idea yesterday that the loose-heel switches were used on the sleepered junctions was wrong. We don't seem to have any information about where the different types of switches were used. Nor about where timbered junctions were used rather than sleepered.

So I shall take your advice and ask on the NERA web-group for help with this. I don't hold out much hope because very few members of NERA are on the web-group and questions often go unanswered. I might get further contacting the North Eastern Finescale Group, which I shall also do.

I look forward to seeing the video.

Best wishes,

Bob

posted: 22 Jan 2008 09:22

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Bob,

This video is the scruffiest yet: :(

http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/scruffs/ner_17_6_10.exe

(12MB,  9.1/2 minutes)

I'm sorry, I just don't have the hours to spare at the moment to go through it and clean it up, or to add any notes and callouts. Please fight your way through it using the top slider, and refer to the notes below this for an explanation of the dimensions showing in the dialogs.

ner_17ft6in_10.pngner_17ft6in_10.png

The Templot .box file is attached below (for 082d and 091b -- not for 074b).

The procedure is:

1. Define a NER 17ft-6in custom switch.

2. Copy the previous 15ft - 1:8 turnout to the control template.

3. Select the new 17ft-6in switch for it.

4. Change the V-crossing angle to 1:10 CLM

5. Adjust the lead length  (by changing the crossing entry straight) until it matches the drawing.

6. Shove interlaced sleepers as required (the video skips that bit, it's too tedious to include).

I have done the sleeper shoving very roughly, I'm sure you can improve on it. As far as I know we don't have a drawing for any sizes of sleepered junctions other than the 1:8, so it's mostly guesswork for the 1:10.

Please ask if anything is unclear.

regards,

Martin.
------------------------

Information extracted from the NER 95lb track drawings published by NERA.

North Eastern Railway 1 in 10 Sleepered Single Junction with 17ft-6in Spring Switch

(NER 1:10 turnout with flexible switch and interlaced sleepers)

The NER switches are a simple design of straight switch -- see straight switch. The loose-heel and flexible designs are interchangeable, using identical geometry. The planing for both is undercut, requiring no joggle in the stock rail.

The most interesting and distinctive feature of NER switches is that the switch points (blade tips, switch toe) are aligned to the centre-line of the first switch timber (S1). It would be worth taking some trouble to model that correctly. (On most other switches the points overlap the centre-line, for example in REA switches the overlap is 3.1/2".)

Regrettably this feature has exposed a small bug in Templot (which I thought I had fixed in 091b :( ). Entering a zero for this dimension prevents the remaining timber spacings from being entered. (Templot terminates the spacings list when a zero is entered.) The workaround is to enter a very small non-zero dimension, e.g. 1 thou (on the prototype!). I will fix this in the next Pug -- the problem applies only to these NER switches.

For all sizes of NER switch the switch front is 3'-10" (46"), containing a single 10" wide sleeper (i.e. not a 12" wide timber) spaced 2'-6" (30") back from the toe.

For the loose-heel switches the switch rail length corresponds to the switch size. The heel action takes place in a heel chair, and the heel is therefore on a timber centre. All timber spacings are at 2'-6" (30") centres. With both ends of the switch rail on a timber centre, the switch length sizes are therefore in multiples of 2'-6". For all sizes the heel clearance in the heel chair is 2". With 95lb rail (2.3/4" wide) this gives a heel offset (heel spread) of 4.3/4".

For the flexible switches the switch rail is replaced with a longer rail. The heel chair is replaced with an ordinary slide chair, but the 2" clearance at this "virtual heel" position is maintained, so the switch deflection angle (planing angle) and all geometry remain the same.

Beyond this heel position, the next few timber spacings are determined by the turnout radius. This means that the switch details need to be adjusted slightly according to the crossing angle of the turnout it is used with. For the 1:10 turnout, with a quoted radius of 941'-9" (3767mm in 4mm scale), the next timbers beyond the heel are spaced at 2'-6", 2'-9.1/8",  2'-6.3/8".

So the switch timbers are spaced 8@30", 33.125", 30.375" (7@30" to the heel = 17'-6" (210") + 1 more @ 30").

For both versions of the 17'-6" (210") switch, the stock rail is 32'-9" (393") long. For the flexible version, the switch rail is 31'-6" (378") long. (These dimensions are used in Templot only to mark the rail joints, they do not affect the geometry.)

Combined with a 1:10 (CLM) V-crossing angle, the lead length (points to blunt nose) is given as 84'-10.1/4" (339.42mm in 4mm scale). The blunt nose is 5/8" wide. The radius is given as 941'-9". On past experience reconciling these lead and radius dimensions from pre-group drawings will be difficult. In the NER case that is guaranteed, because on one drawing the radius is shown to the track centre-line, and in another drawing the same radius is shown to the rail. In practice the quoted dimension turns out to be neither -- it is actually the internal geometrical radius, significantly larger than the turnout radius in the rails.

It is better to match the lead length and ignore the radius, so that the timber spacings fit.
----------------------------

Attached .box file for Templot versions 082d and 091b (it won't display correctly in 074b):
Attachment: attach_218_299_ner_17ft6in_10.box 361

posted: 22 Jan 2008 19:48

from:

Bob Ellis
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
This video is the scruffiest yet: :(

http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/scruffs/ner_17_6_10.exe

(12MB,  9.1/2 minutes)
Dear Martin,

I am extremely grateful to you for producing the video, however scruffy it may be. I haven't looked at it yet, but I shall start going through it this afternoon. In the meantime, I have been beavering away trying to unearth more details about pre-1908 NER permanent way. It is extremely frustrating that the National Railway Museum has lost the copy of the Permanent Way Standards from the 1890s that was deposited with them in the 1980s. However, I thought you might be interested in what I have managed to discover.

The line from Leyburn to Askrigg was inspected for the Board of Trade in October 1876 prior to opening. The report states: "the permanent way consists of double headed cast iron rails in 24ft lengths, weighing 82lbs per yard...The sleepers are of scotch fir, creosoted, 9ft by 10in by 5in, laid transversely 2ft 8in apart." Although the running lines would have been renewed after 20-30 years, these rails would have lasted much longer in the sidings. Since renewal of the running lines would probably have taken place between 1896 and 1906, 90lb bullhead rail would probably have been used.

All the switches would probably have been heel switches because the NER did not begin using heel-less or flexible switches until 1908 and heel switches continued to be used even after that date. The heel switches came in four lengths, 9, 12, 15 and 18 feet, although I have been unable to find which length of switch was used with each angle of crossing. I shall just have to approximate it from the 95lb B.S. rails in the 1912 Permanent Way Standards Book.

Timbered S & C do not seem to have been used on the NER prior to 1910, so I shall use sleepered ones throughout, especially since the photographs I have all show the sleepered variety. The NER used both sleepered and timbered ones from 1910 onwards, but I have not found any evidence about which ones were used in which circumstances.

Thanks once again for the video and the accompanying notes. I look forward to working through them.

Best wishes,

Bob



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