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                                       Making a start on shoving timbers
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 16 Jul 2017 20:22
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from:
d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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With kind help from here and the Scalefour forum, I've got a workable plan that both myself and my co-operator are happy with.

Now I need to turn to sorting out something I've not really looked at before now, timber shoving.

I've looked at the prototype for the area the layout is based upon, Shepperton, and it seems to suggest straight-on timbering, which is what it is already, so that should be fine.

I've made a start on the crossover in the station/platform area. Lengthened some, moved others. I think I'm getting there. Some feedback before I carry on with other points would be helpful.



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Attachment: Shepperton - v11.0.4 - Attempting Timber Shoving.box (Downloaded 11 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 16 Jul 2017 22:20
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d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Done some googling and further reading of various timber shoving threads, etc, Attached is attempt at shoving timbers on all the turnouts on the plan. I think I've mostly got it right, probably needs further tweaking and may have used more longer sleepers than would have been normal (era is 1959-62, BR(S)).



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Attachment: Shepperton - v11.0.4c - Attempting Timber Shoving.box (Downloaded 10 times)
 
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3rd message | this message only posted: 16 Jul 2017 22:55
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi Kelly.
I have had a look at your first attempt posted earlier. You must not move the timbers supporting the crossings as you have done, only lengthen / shorten and twist them. Their spacing is predetermined by the crossing angle. This has been stated many times before but people still do it. Trying to timber crossovers correctly can be quite difficult sometimes. It is often easier to adjust the track spacing slightly to get the timbers to align before attempting anything else. I have reset the timbering of the platform crossover and adjusted the track centres to 44.9mm which gives a much better starting point. The ideal spacing will vary according to the crossing angle. I have realigned the approach curve to match. Take a look at which timbers I have shoved as a guide to what to do. I have only lengthened the turnout timbers without moving any. The sleepers on the exit roads have been shoved / moved forward / back to fit into the gaps between the timbers of the adjacent turnouts. I have also altered the turnout timbering of the yard turnout to give you an example of a correct way to do things for your period.

Regards
Tony.

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Attachment: kelly_shepperton_timbering revised.box (Downloaded 13 times)
 
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4th message | this message only posted: 16 Jul 2017 22:59
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from:
d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Tony W wrote: Hi Kelly.
I have had a look at your first attempt posted earlier. You must not move the timbers supporting the crossings as you have done, only lengthen / shorten and twist them. Their spacing is predetermined by the crossing angle. This has been stated many times before but people still do it. Trying to timber crossovers correctly can be quite difficult sometimes. It is often easier to adjust the track spacing slightly to get the timbers to align before attempting anything else. I have reset the timbering of the platform crossover and adjusted the track centres to 44.9mm which gives a much better starting point. The ideal spacing will vary according to the crossing angle. I have realigned the approach curve to match. Take a look at which timbers I have shoved as a guide to what to do. I have only lengthened the turnout timbers without moving any. The sleepers on the exit roads have been shoved / moved forward / back to fit into the gaps between the timbers of the adjacent turnouts. I have also altered the turnout timbering of the yard turnout to give you an example of a correct way to do things for your period.

Regards
Tony.
Hi Tony,

Thanks. I thought I might have been going wrong in some aspects, but unless you have a go and make mistakes you don't learn i find.

I'll have a proper look tomorrow and compare what I did with what you have done so I can clearly see what you mean.

Thanks,

Kelly

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5th message | this message only posted: 17 Jul 2017 15:44
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi Kelly.
On taking a further quick look I notice that the track spacing between the two curved running lines is at standard spacing. This needs to be widened considerably for the radius used. I will have a closer look later. Better to find out now than later. I know of a layout where sadly this was not discovered until the track had been laid.
They who never made a mistake, never made anything.
Regards
Tony.

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6th message | this message only posted: 17 Jul 2017 16:31
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi Kelly,

Use tools > spacing-ring • dummy vehicle to check for clearance conflicts:



regards,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 17 Jul 2017 17:58
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from:
John Palmer
 

 

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When I posted the boxfile forming the basis of Kelly's current design on the Scalefour Society forum, I should probably have issued a stronger warning than I did that clearances should be tested - I plead guilty to having adopted standard spacings, as my principal concern was to arrive at a layout meeting the required operational criteria.

The attached boxfile widens the running line centres to 49mm.  This seems to maintain 6" clearances between dummy vehicles of 4-SUB dimensions, but may still not be aceptable.  I didn't alter the carriage line and shunting neck clearances as these already provided more than the standard six foot.

I've done some timber shoving which may or may not be to your taste.

I've also provided a trap at the approach to the outer crossover, which I think is what you require.  If, instead, you want to trap the 'oil terminal' points on the inside of the layout, the storage box includes a couple of single tongued traps in what I think are appropriate positions.



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8th message | this message only posted: 17 Jul 2017 18:28
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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John Palmer wrote:I didn't alter the carriage line and shunting neck clearances as these already provided more than the standard six foot.Hi John,

The standard for those is 10ft way (60.67mm centres) from a running line.

Or 9ft way minimum, 56.67mm centres, where space constraints make it unavoidable -- for example between bridge parapets.

However, often on a model we have our own space constraints. :)

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 17 Jul 2017 19:45
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from:
John Palmer
 

 

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Yes, I thought I had adopted the 10' spacing both between running line and carriage line and between carriage line and neck, but on re-visiting this I find that I must have adopted a rather smaller value close to nine foot - can't now recall why I did so.  I admit to having been lazy this time and not opening out the spacing of these tracks!

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10th message | this message only posted: 20 Jul 2017 01:43
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from:
d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Thanks for all your assistance and comments. Thanks also to John for his efforts over on the scalefour forum to get to the starting point at the start of this topic.

Always something to learn, I'm certainly in a position of lots to learn!

Unfortunately I've not been able to take a look at the changes due to being away from home and not having a computer with Templot set up on available at present until I am back home again.

Hopefully I can get the last niggles sorted out so I can make some kind of start with track building soon, but we'll see.
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11th message | this message only posted: 12 Sep 2017 14:32
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from:
d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Due ill health I've not been able to revisit this plan since July.

Now looking at it again, I'm trying to form a list of what changes are needed before laying can commence.

(no particular order):
1. finish timber shoving
2. Increase (where possible) track centres between running lines and sidings to 10ft (60.67mm)(currently 56mm.
3. Possibly increase spacing for the running curved lines to allow longer units later (most stock initially will be 2BIL/HAL, SUB/EPB and Mk1 based, but there is scope for more modern longer vehicles to be used, 455/466 etc).

Have I missed anything off that list?

EDIT: shoved a bit more, following Tony's guide. I've concentrated on the left hand 6ft of board space. Also added label prefixes.

Have I done things right in relation to 31 [station] - TR358, 32 [station] - PL353 and 29 [Station]- TR359?

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12th message | this message only posted: 13 Sep 2017 21:48
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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi Kelly.
Sorry to learn you have not been well, I wondered why things went quiet.
As well as widening the track spacing with the sidings, the track spacing between the running lines should ideally be increased from 49mm to 52mm for the radius you are using.
Not sure about your timbering arrangement for that crossover. There are an awful lot of long timbers and they would in any case all be 12" wide crossing timbers rather than 10" timbering. I have attached what I think is a more likely scenario, although there are undoubtedly other solutions.
Regards
Tony.
 

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13th message | this message only posted: 13 Sep 2017 22:03
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d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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A combination of medication changes and my usual health problems being a bit of a pain (literally, morphine is a friend), but after July and August spent doing not a great deal I'm a bit better and refreshed at least now (upto June was rather hectic with DEMU Update work and a lot of shows, so it wore me out somewhat).

Yes, I'll look at widening the spacings (I've moved the outer siding on the right out a bit already, though more is needed, but too late to do more now).

I've made some changes since my earlier posting, having researched the location, it seems more than usual long timbers were used to support the crossings, possibly this is due to the 3rd rail to give more support where it has to switch from outside to inside (which it will in the station)?

A look at your revision and compared to photos of the area on flickr (admittedly a bit later than my time period, but I can live with that) It also seems to show that interlaced sleeping was not used in the area.

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14th message | this message only posted: 14 Sep 2017 14:42
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi Kelly.
Ah yes PE! Photographic Evidence is always the best reference source.
Whilst I accept that extra long crossing timbers are used throughout, for whatever reason, it should perhaps be born in mind that due to our unprototypically tight curves producing extra wide track spacing the result can be somewhat exaggerated.
Be that as it may, all the crossing timbers should be wide (4.00mm in this case), I have altered those that aren't, and spaced them more to the rail joints and made the timbering symmetrical with the crossing vee A timber the first through one in both cases.

Regards
Tony.

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15th message | this message only posted: 14 Sep 2017 16:04
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from:
d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Tony W wrote: Hi Kelly.
Ah yes PE! Photographic Evidence is always the best reference source.
Whilst I accept that extra long crossing timbers are used throughout, for whatever reason, it should perhaps be born in mind that due to our unprototypically tight curves producing extra wide track spacing the result can be somewhat exaggerated.
Be that as it may, all the crossing timbers should be wide (4.00mm in this case), I have altered those that aren't, and spaced them more to the rail joints and made the timbering symmetrical with the crossing vee A timber the first through one in both cases.

Regards
Tony.
Thanks Tony. I'd only done the station two and the entrance to the sidings/coal area initially. I'll see if I can manage to get the spacing for the double track extended in a bit to allow for future use of more modern units if so required (better to allow for that than not I expect!).

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16th message | this message only posted: 14 Sep 2017 16:53
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from:
d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Made alterations to the plan to increase the spacing of the double curved tracks (I need to readd the trap point). I increased it to 56mm rather than 52mm, it should give plenty of room (unless that now looks too much?).

Made some minor changes to the plan on the Oil Terminal siding too. I've changed another turnout to B6 rather than B5.5 to make it easier for me to implement.

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17th message | this message only posted: 14 Sep 2017 19:17
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from:
d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Done some more Timber Shoving now for the remainder of the turnouts. If someone could take a look and see if I've introduced errors etc that would be great.

Thanks

Kelly

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18th message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2017 11:40
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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi Kelly.
Just had a look at your latest iteration. Largely there now I think apart from the alignment of the switch blades of the coal siding turnout (17) with the timbering, now sorted. Otherwise I have just tidied up a few areas where I thought the timbering could look better. Regarding the track spacing, too wide is better than too close. The stated spacings are a minima after all. You may also find the extra separation of benefit when you come to design your fiddle yard. I have also tidied up your storage box.
Good luck with building it.
Tony.

Edit.
PS. I note from the above posting that one of your baseboard joins is very close to the crossing of the yard turnout and appears to cut through the check rails. It would be better moved slightly to avoid this. Also be careful of your timbering generally where baseboard joins are concerned. Ideally the rails should be cut at 90 degrees and not follow the baseboard angle, if that makes sense. Did you post the background shapes for the baseboards, if so I must have missed it?

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19th message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2017 11:55
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from:
d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Tony W wrote: Hi Kelly.
Just had a look at your latest iteration. Largely there now I think apart from the alignment of the switch blades of the coal siding turnout (17) with the timbering, now sorted. Otherwise I have just tidied up a few areas where I thought the timbering could look better. Regarding the track spacing, too wide is better than too close. The stated spacings are a minima after all. You may also find the extra separation of benefit when you come to design your fiddle yard. I have also tidied up your storage box.
Good luck with building it.
Tony.

Edit.
PS. I note from the above posting that one of your baseboard joins is very close to the crossing of the yard turnout and appears to cut through the check rails. It would be better moved slightly to avoid this. Also be careful of your timbering generally where baseboard joins are concerned. Ideally the rails should be cut at 90 degrees and not follow the baseboard angle, if that makes sense. Did you post the background shapes for the baseboards, if so I must have missed it?
Hi Tony, find attached the background shapes which show the baseboards. The forum limits to one upload at a time so I didn't add them previously.

I've made some more changes (mainly to the oil terminal to make it a bit longer).

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20th message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2017 11:58
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d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Find attached the changes I made before you posted Tony. It does mean the oil terminal point is now on a baseboard join, which I didn't notice until after i'd made changes.

I expect the joins are unavoidable without making the points too tight to work.

One idea I had was having them on balsa wood bases and removing/slotting them. Might prove problematic over time I expect though?

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21st message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2017 13:41
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from:
John Palmer
 

 

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Should be easy enough to shift the yard turnout so that checkrails don't straddle a board joint.

Is it worth considering an infill of the 'notches' caused by the baseboard shapes, as shown by the red lines on the attached screenshot?  As you can see, this then makes it possible to rotate the entire track formation and ease the curvature of the approach tracks somewhat.  Just a thought...



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22nd message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2017 15:39
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from:
d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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John Palmer wrote: Should be easy enough to shift the yard turnout so that checkrails don't straddle a board joint.

Is it worth considering an infill of the 'notches' caused by the baseboard shapes, as shown by the red lines on the attached screenshot?  As you can see, this then makes it possible to rotate the entire track formation and ease the curvature of the approach tracks somewhat.  Just a thought...


Hi Johm.

That is something I'd considered, it shouldn't be too hard to ask Tim Horn to make a few fillets, and have the control panels there.

It does also give a bit more room for the 3 sidings at the bottom middle. I'd need to move the point of the oil terminal to avoid the join, but otherwise much better.

Kelly


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23rd message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2017 15:54
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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi Kelly.
Latest version attached, but I get the distinct feeling it may not be the final one!
Regards
Tony.

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24th message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2017 16:33
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d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Tony W wrote: Hi Kelly.
Latest version attached, but I get the distinct feeling it may not be the final one!
Regards
Tony.

Thanks Tony. There is always something that needs altering/tweaking. But that is why I am using templot, as it is much easier (in theory) to modify on the screen) than to realise I've made a mess and redo the physical trackwork.

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25th message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2017 17:20
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d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Adding the fillets and rotating the plan to have it over the fillets does give more room for the sidings and parcel bay, which was looking a bit tight previously. Working from your latest version it looks like it could work.

Natalie likes the fillets as well, and as it makes the space on the right much bigger, she's suggested that we add a private siding (ferro-concrete works was in the rough position marked in orange on the image below. Her drawing is so small though I'm not sure if I've gotten it right. Ideally it might be better if it were a tandem, but not worked out how to do those yet.

In the image below the colours represent:

Pink/Puple: points crossing baseboard joins.
Orange: added private siding for ferro-concrete plant.

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26th message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2017 17:45
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d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Slight adjustments as the uppermost crossover had ended up off the end of the board.



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d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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Discussed the right hand side with Natalie and figured it out mostly. Simplified to a single private siding, with a small spur to a small shed/stable point for the industrial loco. (ignore the orange bits in this). Still need to work on the overlapping (baseboard) points. Getting there slowly!


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28th message | this message only posted: 15 Sep 2017 20:54
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d827kelly
Coventry, United Kingdom

 

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I've altered the plan to move as much of the points off of joins. I can't get one of them to avoid it without shortening the carriage siding too much. Done most of the timber shoving (might have inadvertantly made an error or two there though!).


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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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d827kelly wrote: I've altered the plan to move as much of the points off of joins. I can't get one of them to avoid it without shortening the carriage siding too much. Done most of the timber shoving (might have inadvertantly made an error or two there though!).

Hi Kelly.
If you are now reasonably happy that this will be close to the final version, I shall have another look at your timbering.
Regards
Tony.

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30th message | this message only posted: 19 Sep 2017 12:24
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d827kelly
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Tony W wrote: Hi Kelly.
If you are now reasonably happy that this will be close to the final version, I shall have another look at your timbering.
Regards
Tony.
Hi Tony,

Yes, I am reasonably happy it is as close as I can get, the only things that might need attention is the oil terminal turnout, as I'm not sure i f the clearances are sufficient for a 4 car unit to be in the second platform (effectively a carriage siding) and access to the oil terminal being sufficient. changing the turnout angle might alleviate most of it, I expect I'll tweak that when it is laid on a board though.

Kelly

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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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OK Kelly, I think this is about it.
Regards
Tony.

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d827kelly
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Thanks Tony. Looks good.
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