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22 Jul 2017 19:30

from:

Josh C
 

 

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Good Evening All,
 
I have recently been working on a new 7mm Southern Branch Line Terminus with a junction off to another branch, which you may have seen on an other thread on the forum. Having completed most of the track work and fitted all the point motors, the next task is wire the layout up and test it functionally. However, after this we'd like to turn out attention to signalling so we can get a rough idea of where they need to be mounted, where point rodding will be required and running cables to operate them before progressing with any scenic work. Unfortunately, signalling isn't really mine or my friends strong point so we could do with some advice, opinions and suggestions to progress things.....!
 
I have drawn up a plan of the layout in Templot Sketchboard, I have copied this into paint and added some lines to indicate the diamond crossing that is a double slip, the platform and a proposed location of the signal box. the Branch comes in from the top of the layout and the main line comes in from the right.
 

 
From what knowledge I have, I presume that there would be a bracket signal at the end of the platform. I presume this would have two main starter arms, one for each platform but would these give a route indication or would this be determined by the road that the signaler pulls off? In addition to this would each road require a subsidiary signal for shunting or would the main arm just be given? Moving down the line, on the main line there could be a section signal towards the end of the scenic section?
 
As for arriving at the terminus, I presume there would be a home bracket signal outside the main point. I am unsure what arms and indication this would require as you can effectively access the loop, platform 1, bay platform and yard from the main line. Again, I presume there would need to be a subsidiary arm or ground signal for shunting or when the platforms are occupied? I don't think the branch at the top requires any signalling as it is not on the scenic part of the layout for long enough to model any. However, I presume the yard and loop are going to need some ground signals, etc.
 
The layout is going to be set in Southern steam around the 1930s to 1940s.

Here is what I have come up with so far:


 
We would be most appreciative if anyone could comment on the above or perhaps give some advice on the how the layout might of been signaled.
 
If anyone needs any further information to add comments for the signalling requirements, please fire away!
 
Thanks in Advance
Josh :)

22 Jul 2017 19:43

from:

Dave Summers
Urchfont, Devizes, United Kingdom

 

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Whilst there are undoubtedly people that will comment, this is probably the wrong site to be asking the question. Templot is all about trackwork not signalling.
Dave

23 Jul 2017 07:34

from:

Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Dave Summers wrote: Whilst there are undoubtedly people that will comment, this is probably the wrong site to be asking the question. Templot is all about trackwork not signalling.
Dave

The best one is probably "The Signal Box" forum which is largely populated by professional signalling staff.  The forum has a section for model railway subjects.

http://forum.signalbox.org/viewforum.php?f=16

... which would probably be the best place to enquire.  The web site where the forum is sited is also an excellent source of information.

https://signalbox.org/

Jim
Last edited on 23 Jul 2017 07:43 by Jim Guthrie
23 Jul 2017 07:59

from:

rodney_hills
United Kingdom

 

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Dave Summers wrote: Whilst there are undoubtedly people that will comment, this is probably the wrong site to be asking the question. Templot is all about trackwork not signalling.
Dave
Josh,Dave is quite correct,

The Signalling Record Society has a lot of SB diagrams available to its members, low res samples are free online, 
The station that springs to mind as near to your requiremnts is Exmouth.

here is Exmouth, before the branch to the east and after the 1924 rebuild.
http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srq/S3498.htm
you should be able to get a general idea of signalling  from that..

Somewhat more legible here : 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Exmouth-Branch-10-Black-White-Photo-Prints-BW1-inc-some-colour-/252847001642
One photo shows actual sb diagram as above in this post.

Exmouth also figures in the SR station plans book by Pryer and Bowring
See my post here
 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34602

Regards., 

Rodney Hills


Attachment: image.jpeg (Downloaded 10 times)

24 Jul 2017 08:21

from:

Borg-Rail
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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srs will happily sell non-members a cd too, they just cost a bit more. I know because I bought one, though I don't think the one I have covers Exmouth. I' sure that your station should have a bracket on the platform, as does Bournemouth West (which has 3 such brackets), with shunt signals but as there are two possible routes it should have the extra arms. Therefore, I don't think anyone is going to argue with the scheme you have arrived at.

24 Jul 2017 15:34

from:

John Palmer
 

 

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Here is my take on the signalling arrangements:

A few notes:

1. For a terminus, the distants are likely to have been fixed at caution.
2. The Outer Home signals would be positioned at such a distance as to permit station operations to continue notwithstanding acceptance of a train; i.e. at least 440 yards in rear of the Inner Homes.
3.  I have included yellow discs, as this seems to have been the practice adopted at Exmouth, which does indeed have a somewhat similar layout.
4. Again following the practice at Exmouth I have not applied a FPL to the engine release.
5. Shunting movements from  the bay and main platforms are controlled by the starters, rather than subsidiaries.  Again, this follows the practice adopted at Exmouth.
6. In the Down/inbound direction, the discs to the right of the main post both read to the yard, whilst the sole disc to the left of the main post reads to the loop.


25 Jul 2017 11:07

from:

Borg-Rail
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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However as Josh has mentioned (possibly elsewhere) that the extra signalling that would be appropriate will be conveniently offstage.

I'm not at all certain that permissive (yellow discs) would be appropriate for his period. I'd go with the experts on RMweb.

25 Jul 2017 14:01

from:

John Palmer
 

 

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Hadn't been aware until today of the thread opened on RMweb, to which I'm not a subscriber.  Actually, I see nothing on that thread which is at odds with my design, and I note that Chris Osment has also  pointed out the possibility of the discs on the loop being yellow-banded.

I mistook which line was intended to be the main, so have revised my diagram by appropriate changes to the heights of the dolls carrying the starting  signals. On the basis that the two routes into the platforms are treated as being of equal importance, I have also equalised the height of the dolls carrying the inner homes.  Here is the revised version:

I haven't drawn in any lockbars, as I don't know whether these would have been replaced by track circuits in the period to be represented, but I have indicated the points that require to be bolted.

I suspect that the number of layouts having correctly positioned outer home signals - let alone distants - are as rare as rocking horse poop, having regard to the distances involved.  No surprise, then, that many if not most signals will be offstage.  However, preparing a diagram of the whole layout, whether or not it is to be represented, may help comprehension of the layout's operational capabilities and restrictions.

26 Jul 2017 08:06

from:

Borg-Rail
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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All fair comment but with the yellow discs, I have never found a reference as to when they were introduced. I think in the main because they tended to use or re-use the miniature semaphore arms, at least that's the impression that Pryer gave in his book.

26 Jul 2017 08:55

from:

rodney_hills
United Kingdom

 

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Josh/John,

regarding which way points lay 'normal'...
 
I think the branch should have 'normal' through to the buffers of the shorter, lower platform road.

that involves making the branch to the longer, upper platform connection to be worked as a crossover.

it is now probably a good point ((!) to do an exercise to number points, fpls, signals/
again Exmouth is an example of lever assignment.

btw - what date is the model set at?

regards,
Rodney Hills 

26 Jul 2017 11:46

from:

John Palmer
 

 

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rodney_hills wrote: Josh/John,

regarding which way points lay 'normal'...
 
I think the branch should have 'normal' through to the buffers of the shorter, lower platform road.

that involves making the branch to the longer, upper platform connection to be worked as a crossover.

regards,
Rodney Hills 
Can't see any problem with that, and again reflects the arrangements at Exmouth.

Here's a further revised drawing making that change, with my tentative stab at laying out the frame.  I think I've managed to avoid any pull betweens, but if I haven't it shouldn't be difficult to make appropriate adjustments in the lever positioning.

In view of the similarities with the Exmouth layout I have assumed this is a Stevens frame for the LSWR and incorporated push/pull levers for some of the discs.


26 Jul 2017 17:49

from:

Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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Can I ask if the loop is signalled, please?

26 Jul 2017 23:18

from:

John Palmer
 

 

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Phil O wrote: Can I ask if the loop is signalled, please?Yes, by 13 Push/Pull and 29 Push/Pull.

27 Jul 2017 12:34

from:

Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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John Palmer wrote: Phil O wrote: Can I ask if the loop is signalled, please?Yes, by 13 Push/Pull and 29 Push/Pull.
Thanks

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