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1st message | this message only posted: 23 Jul 2017 03:21
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Well that was fun. How much actual use can be made of it remains to be seen. :?

Lots of folks like to use maps as a background guide to their track planning. But it's not always straightforward to capture and merge multiple screenshots from the mapping web sites, and scale them accurately to match the model scale.

So I thought it would be useful if Templot could load maps directly from the server. That way the map can be as large as you like, within reason, and Templot can do the scaling to your model scale automatically.

The big fly in that ointment is the copyright and licensing restrictions on most mapping and aerial imagery web sites.

But that doesn't apply to OpenStreetMap (OSM), so I have had a go at loading the OSM map tiles directly, with promising results.

The first requirement is to specify the location, and for the UK the easiest way is to use the OS Grid Ref:



Of course that doesn't work for the rest of the world, so I shall have to add an option to enter latitude/longitude instead. But the OS grid numbers are far more brain-friendly -- they are easily found by going to this map:

 https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk

Next Templot needs to know how much area of map you want. That is specified in the equivalent model size, so it's important to have set your gauge/scale before doing this:



Templot then does some quite complex maths (maps are flat, the Earth's surface is curved), and loads all the necessary OSM tiles as background picture shapes. This is Shrewsbury in EM:


© OpenStreetMap contributors

which might take a minute or two to load.

As you can see, there could be several hundred picture shape tiles to fill the required area. But because each one is only a few KB, Templot can zoom and pan over them very quickly -- I have tried up to 2000 picture shape tiles without any noticeable effect on zoom and pan speeds. That certainly wouldn't be the case if this was a single large captured screenshot of several dozen MB. The BGS shapes file can be saved in the usual way, it is only necessary to load the map tiles from the OSM server once.

It's much easier to work with the picture shape borders turned off. A rectangle shape is also drawn showing the requested area -- Templot loads only full tiles, so these overlap the requested area a little way:


© OpenStreetMap contributors

Here I have started overlaying a template on the map:


© OpenStreetMap contributors

This is Bewdley on the Severn Valley Railway:


© OpenStreetMap contributors

The disadvantage with OSM is that it is not always as accurate as OS maps. But of course anyone can go on there and edit it, so if the map doesn't have all the information you need you can add or amend it. Usually that means tracing from aerial imagery, but you can also cross-fade from OSM to the historic 25" maps on the NLS site, so it's possible to double check OSM for accuracy -- bridges, churches, etc., don't tend to wander about much over the years. :)

OSM is at:  http://www.openstreetmap.org/about

Nowadays the OSM servers update most zoom levels within a couple of minutes, so it's much easier to check your work than it used to be. Press CTRL+F5 to refresh your browser if you don't see a change after a few minutes. Be warned though, editing OSM can be very addictive. :)

This new function will be in the next program update. Comments welcome. Would you ever use this?

regards,

Martin.

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2nd message | this message only posted: 23 Jul 2017 10:57
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Would I use it? Possibly. It's certainly nice to have it there. For anyone interested in modelling real locations it could well be very useful.
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3rd message | this message only posted: 25 Jul 2017 14:15
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Updating, there has been some discussion on the Scalefour Society forum about this, see:

 https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5502

The NLS have a tile server, but only the historic 1"/mile map is available for free use.

The largest scale available in tiled format for the whole of the UK is the old 6"/mile maps (1888-1913), for which the licence subscription is £199+vat per year. They are useful, but not really large enough for detailed track planning. Here is Shrewsbury, drag the transparency slider to see the modern view:

 http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=52.7092&lon=-2.7457&layers=6&b=2

When they have finished the 25" map project hopefully they will make that available in tiled format, in which case it could be well worth raiding the Templot donations fund for what is likely to be a hefty subscription fee.

In the meantime we could have the fantastic 60"/mile maps of London 1893-1896 for £99+vat per year, and I may go for that just to see how well it works for direct loading in Templot. Here is Willesden Junction, drag the slider to see the modern view:

 http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=51.5311&lon=-0.2437&layers=163&b=2

In the meantime I have added the option to specify the location in latitude/longitude for non-UK locations, here is Buenos Aires on OpenStreetMap in EM:



Here is the Google view from that overbridge in 2015:

https://goo.gl/maps/xSsis1gdx1P2

And looking the other way:

https://goo.gl/maps/p4orprsY7Nr

The semaphore signalling and S-curving pointwork give it a familiar feel.

regards,

Martin.
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4th message | this message only posted: 25 Jul 2017 14:48
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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I'm sure I would use that feature at some point. In the past I've spent quite some time stitching and scaling maps to end up with a large bitmap, so this method would make life much easier. I must drift back into railway modelling one day!
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5th message | this message only posted: 28 Jul 2017 09:37
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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I decided to go ahead and buy a subscription for Templot to the NLS London 1890s maps. :)

I'm well pleased with the results -- this is the shed area at Palace Gates station. See:

 http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/p/palace_gates/

Photos: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/p/palace_gates/index3.shtml

These are not screenshots made separately and then manually imported and scaled to size.

I simply specified the OS Grid Reference (TQ 301 907) and Templot loaded the map from NLS automatically and at exactly the right scaled size ready to start track planning over it.

This function will be in the next Templot program update.


© National Library of Scotland

© National Library of Scotland


© National Library of Scotland

As you can see I have started aligning some templates over the tracks. These are in P4.

To match prototype turnouts exactly it is necessary to change to CLM unit angles and in most cases to generic V-crossings (it's not worth bothering to do this if you are not using an exact scale/gauge such as P4 or S7).

This crossover then turned out to have 15ft straight switches and 1:10 V-crossings. The switch toes for the crossover then matched the switch location marks on the map.

The accuracy of these 60"/mile maps is surprising -- the track gauge and 6ft way match exactly:



Having paid for a year's subscription to this NLS service I now need to get the next Templot update out quickly so that everyone can get a full year's benefit of it. :)

Just to repeat, this is for London only, and the 1890s. But of course much of the infrastructure remained the same for years, even if track layouts changed a bit.

Now hopefully the NLS will in due course make the 25" maps for the whole country available in the same way, although the subscription fee is likely to be eye-watering.

Here is Palace Gates on the NLS site with a transparency slider so that you can see the modern aerial view:

 http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=51.6017&lon=-0.1218&layers=163&b=2

regards,

Martin.

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6th message | this message only posted: 30 Jul 2017 04:22
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from:
mikewturner
 

 

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Hi Martin

Really looking forward to this update as another use is being able to place a 'what if' layout at the correct orientation to the natural and man made features in a landscape.

Regards

Mike
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7th message | this message only posted: 30 Jul 2017 12:07
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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mikewturner wrote: Really looking forward to this update as another use is being able to place a 'what if' layout at the correct orientation to the natural and man made features in a landscape.Thanks Mike.

Bear in mind that you can already do this if you make and scale your own screenshots from the mapping web sites. See:

 http://templot.com/companion/crop_combine.html

 http://templot.com/companion/wrap_picture_shape_to_curve.html

The advantage of the new function is that it will do all the work for you. Just specify a real world location and click go.

regards,

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 1 Aug 2017 03:17
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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A further update.

I'm so pleased with the way this is looking that I have had a rush of blood to the head and now also purchased a subscription for Templot to the 6-inch maps. :)



In truth the 6-inch maps are too small-scale to be much help with detailed track planning, such as identifying the size of turnouts, etc. But they are the only historic maps currently available GB-wide, and available on subscription from the tile server.

The NLS 25-inch project has not yet covered the whole of GB (and may never do so for all areas), and the maps are not currently available on subscription, so cannot be directly loaded in Templot -- you must make your own screenshots from the NLS web site.

Here is a direct comparison between the two (Tewkesbury):

6-inch map:



25-inch map:



Clearly the 6-inch map is not going to be much help in the finer track details (or even the exact number of sidings), but it does show the ruling radii, correct positions of bridges, goods sheds, signal boxes, etc. So it is still useful, and could be used to correctly scale a 25-inch map over the top of it if the latter is set to transparent.

Talking of which, I have also included a function to perform the scaling for manually created screenshots, using the same maths as for the directly loaded ones.

For those adept with a calculator, here it is:

image width in mm =

   513592.631 x COS(latitude) x pixels x scale / 2^zoom

where

513592.631 is a magic number derived from the circumference of the Earth at the Equator.

latitude is at the centre of the map area, e.g. 52.1234 degrees

pixels is the width of the image in pixels, e.g. 1280

scale is your model scale in mm/ft, e.g. 4

zoom is the zoom level of the map, e.g. typically in the range 17-21 for our purposes,
          where zoom=0 means a map of the entire world.

Fortunately if you get zoom wrong it causes the width to double or halve for each step, so it is fairly obvious to correct.

Here is how to find the information in a typical URL:

maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.9959&lon=-2.1498&layers=6&b=3

p.s. 2^zoom means 2zoom   i.e. 2 raised to the power zoom

regards,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 7 Aug 2017 03:45
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Another update. :)

The directly-loaded tiled maps are great. They can be extended by adding additional rows and columns of tiles to almost any size, with little impact on panning and zooming performance.

But the map which many users will want is the NLS 25-inch historic map of the whole country, which is the smallest scale which can really be used for track planning with any hope of replicating prototype turnout sizes and actual positions of pointwork.

That's still a work-in-progress at NLS -- so far they have done about half of the many thousands of sheets needed for England & Wales. Which means it is not yet available as a subscription API for direct loading of tiles. But it is available as a "slippy map" web site with a useful option of adjustable transparency over an underlying base map or aerial image -- in effect you get two maps for each web URL.

Which means screenshots can be made manually for use as background picture shapes. The difficulty is sizing them to the exact scale to match your model.

So I thought I would look at supplementing the directly loaded maps with an option for Templot to make the screenshots for you, and insert them automatically at the correct scaled size.

It's working quite well, and will be in the next program update.



As usual, getting it to work is the easy bit. What always makes me sweat is creating a simple user interface, and especially writing the notes in words which folks will actually read, and not glaze over when they see them. :(

So here is the first draft for this function. Please read these notes and let me know if anything is unclear. Thanks:







regards,

Martin.

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10th message | this message only posted: 7 Aug 2017 16:41
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from:
Borg-Rail
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Err, how long before Templot can build the entire layout for you?:D Amazing! But please do try to get some sleep (03.45?), we need you!
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11th message | this message only posted: 7 Aug 2017 17:18
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richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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This will save some time - brilliant addition :-D
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12th message | this message only posted: 9 Sep 2017 11:52
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from:
John Palmer
 

 

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As yet I've not taken a look at the facility to calculate the size of a map screenshot, as I thought I would first sample Templot's added capability of directly importing a map from the web.

My anti-virus program bitterly contested my efforts to update to 215a, but eventually my will prevailed, and I decided to test the new map importation capability at Templecombe, some way south of my last effort. Incidentally, in case it assists an understanding of my observations, I'm running 64-bit Windows 7 Pro (SP1) on a refurbished HP workstation with 3.33GHz Xeon W3680 CPU's and 12GB of Ram.

The first point to make – and it is an overwhelming plus point that puts in the shade such niggles as I have – is that the import facility saves you all the trouble of re-scaling your screenshot to the scale in which you are working. And since it will do so for each screenshot you make, the possibility that two or more hand-imported screenshots may get re-scaled to slightly different scales is eliminated – brilliant!

Here's a screenshot of my first attempt at constructing a map of the layout at Templecombe for a P4 Templot drawing:

You can see that, for the first map I imported at the 0,0 datum, I forgot to click the Full-screen/Draw option on the map image, so leaving in the spurious menus, etc. Initially I fed in the relevant grid reference to specify the map I required, but eventually I found it easier to select the screenshot I required in my usual web browser (Firefox), then copy and paste the URL for that into the 'other screenshot map URL' in Templot's 'load a map into background picture shapes' dialog.

Within the Templot map viewer my mouse failed to scroll the map. I tried using the arrow keys for scrolling the map in the viewer, but found the scroll steps to be much too coarse. However, I did get acceptable results by selecting the view separately in the web browser then pasting its URL into the Templot dialog.

It would have been nice to be able to extend the map in Templot using the 'extend tiled map' facilities in the dialog, as shown in post #9. However, as can be seen from the second attached screenshot, those extend and crop buttons haven't yet shown up in the dialog as displayed on my machine – something I have missed here?


My biggest niggle is the incorporation into the screenshots grabbed by Templot of the dialog by which the imported map's Templot coordinates are entered. Again, perhaps there is something I have missed about this, but I don't really need the dialog to specify the coordinates because invariably I am going to move the imported map image to a greater or lesser extent to align it with other map images I have already imported. For this reason I would personally have no problem with any imported map being positioned initially at the 0,0 datum, from which I can then move it wherever I wish.

Once all the required map images are imported they can be cropped and combined within arbitrarily specified rectangles as required. Very useful to reduce the number of .sk8 files for an upload.

Hope these comments may be of some help – a big tip o' the hat to Martin for this marvellous extension of the mapping functionality in Templot.

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13th message | this message only posted: 9 Sep 2017 12:07
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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John Palmer wrote:It would have been nice to be able to extend the map in Templot using the 'extend tiled map' facilities in the dialog, as shown in the OP. However, as can be seen from the second attached screenshot, those extend and crop buttons haven't yet shown up in the dialog as displayed on my machine – something I have missed here?Hi John,

Thanks for the detailed report. I'm still writing the docs for this function.

What you have missed is that the extend/crop functions are available only for the tiled maps. The controls appear after such a map is loaded, or selected in the map list.

Presumably you haven't tried the tiled maps yet? Try the OpenStreetMap for Templecombe, or the OS 6-inch map. Adding and cropping rows and columns makes it very easy to get the exact map extents that you want, and the map can be any size, not restricted by the size of your screen for a screenshot. Start with a small area, otherwise you could be loading hundreds of tiles. :)




p.s. Thanks for reporting that the data-entry dialog is appearing in your screenshots. That is something related to your graphics card, it is not happening here. I will investigate. This whole function is still somewhat experimental -- both NLS and Google changed their URL formats while I was in the middle of developing it. By far the most reliable and consistent is OpenStreetMap.

regards,

Martin.

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14th message | this message only posted: 9 Sep 2017 12:16
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from:
John Palmer
 

 

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Thanks, Martin :thumb:; will give that a try as soon as I can. Currently dodging showers whilst I try to make myself a new workbench, so a further Templot session must be postponed for a while.
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richard_t
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Is it possible to load this map (and around it) into Templot using the new functions?

http://maps.nls.uk/view/128378924#zoom=6&lat=7479&lon=6650&layers=BT
(OS Grid Reference is SJ 405 669)

I've tried for the last 10 minutes or so, but I've not got very far.

Thanks.

(Off to brave ripping out more bamboo from the garden before it takes over...)

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16th message | this message only posted: 9 Sep 2017 15:26
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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richard_t wrote: Is it possible to load this map (and around it) into Templot using the new functions?

http://maps.nls.uk/view/128378924#zoom=6&lat=7479&lon=6650&layers=BT

Hi Richard,

That's an individual scanned sheet, not a "slippy map" -- what NLS call their "Georeferenced Maps".

Templot can do only those at present, not the individual sheets. The URL needs to look like this:

 http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=52.3756&lon=-2.3065&layers=176&b=6

and it must change as you scroll across the map.

The individual sheets use a different format derived from Google. I'm hoping to add them in due course, when I have figured out how to decode that URL from the Google docs. I suspect they will want paying for an API subs. :?

The NLS haven't yet got as far as Chester with the 25" georeferenced maps, the only such map available for that location is the 6" map (other than the larger scales), which you can load as a tiled map:



regards,

Martin.

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17th message | this message only posted: 10 Sep 2017 04:04
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: richard_t wrote: Is it possible to load this map (and around it) into Templot using the new functions?

http://maps.nls.uk/view/128378924#zoom=6&lat=7479&lon=6650&layers=BT

Hi Richard,

That's an individual scanned sheet, not a "slippy map" -- what NLS call their "Georeferenced Maps".

Templot can do only those at present, not the individual sheets. The URL needs to look like this:

 http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=52.3756&lon=-2.3065&layers=176&b=6

and it must change as you scroll across the map.

The individual sheets use a different format derived from Google. I'm hoping to add them in due course, when I have figured out how to decode that URL from the Google docs. I suspect they will want paying for an API subs.
:?
Hi Richard,

Forget all that rubbish. :)

I have now decoded the NLS single sheet URL:

 http://maps.nls.uk/view/128378924#zoom=6&lat=7479&lon=6650&layers=BT

The 25" (actually 25.344"/mile, 1:2500) map sheets are 1.5 miles wide and 1 mile high (inside the margins), and NLS say they are scanned at 400dpi.

Each 6" map sheet was divided into 16 sections for the 25" sheet areas.

128378924 is the sheet number.

lat=7479&lon=6650 are in pixels @ 400dpi. From the bottom left corner of the scanning platen, not the sheet margin or the sheet edge. Why NLS are calling them lat and lon instead of Y and X is yet another of life's many mysteries.

The zoom levels are based on zoom zero creating a single 256-pixel tile from the scanned platen area.

What all this means is that I think I now have sufficient information to scale these individual sheet screenshots.

This would be useful because

NLS are well ahead with the scanning of these sheets beyond the areas so far georeferenced for the slippy map, and

In most cases there are 2 or 3 different map dates available for each sheet, whereas the slippy map offers only one date.

So I will try to get 215b out as soon as possible with the option to make screenshots from these individual sheets, in addition to the slippy maps.

regards,

Martin.

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18th message | this message only posted: 10 Sep 2017 14:03
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from:
Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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Martin,
I suspect that latitude and longitude are used as that has always been the terminology for cartography, so that you know where you are on the globe. X and Y and more latterly Z are draughting terms.

Phil
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Phil,

Yes, but lat and lon are always measured in degrees, or radians, or some other angular measure.

Pixels are always specified as integers, you can't have half a pixel.

It's not important, these are simply symbols in the URL, they could be fish=23, chips=68, and it would still work.

In fact the old County Series 25" maps are not referenced to lat and lon at all, or even the OS National Grid which came later. Each County had its own map origin.

That's why it is a lot of work for the NLS to convert the individual sheet scans to a slippy map of the whole of Great Britain, georeferenced on the overlay to modern maps.

At present they have completed scanning the individual sheets for almost all of England and Wales, but the slippy map has got only as far as Crewe.

regards,

Martin.

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20th message | this message only posted: 10 Sep 2017 18:25
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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There is an important point to make about using the new screenshot maps function in 215a.

I failed to make this clear in the notes. :(

When the embedded browser appears it is important that its zoom setting is set to display images dot-for-dot. Otherwise Templot's size calculations for the screenshot will be wrong.

This is the case when it first appears, but you need to take care not to change it.

To zoom the map, make sure to use the +/- buttons on the map, or click on the map and then use the mouse wheel. That way the web site will receive the wheel activity and adjust the URL accordingly.

Take care not to zoom the entire browser page by clicking off the map -- for example on the header section -- and then using Ctrl+Wheel or the usual browser keyboard shortcuts for zooming. If you do that Templot will not know that you have done it, and the screenshot calculations will be wrong.

If you do that accidentally, pressing Ctrl+0 (zero) should return you to normal, but may not do so if you are using a hi-res monitor at other than 96dpi in your Windows display settings.

All this is important because you could unknowingly create screenshots at the wrong size, and spend a lot of wasted time aligning tracks over them.

I will add a test image which can be displayed to check the zoom setting.

None of the above applies to the tiled maps, which are not screenshots and do not use any browser.

regards,

Martin.

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richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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Thanks for the update, although I'm in no great hurry, Winter is coming, so I'll have more time in front of the computer, rather than struggling on in the garden... (Bamboo all up the recycling center - all 10 bulk bags of it. ...I say all, I suspect that's really not the case :() Martin Wynne wrote: Martin Wynne wrote: richard_t wrote: Is it possible to load this map (and around it) into Templot using the new functions? http://maps.nls.uk/view/128378924#zoom=6&lat=7479&lon=6650&layers=BT Hi Richard, [snip] Hi Richard, Forget all that rubbish. :) [snip] regards, Martin.
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Richard,

You need a pet panda. :)

I have added the OS Maps slippy map to the available map sources:

 http://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/52.37537,-2.30524,18

A paid subscription is needed to see the Landranger and Explorer "Leisure" maps (they are available free on Bing maps), but they are not of great use for track planning.

But the "Standard" 10K map and Aerial imagery are available free (click the layers icon, bottom right), up to zoom 18.

The standard map layer might be useful for overall dimensions (and likely to be more accurate than OpenStreetMap). The Aerial imagery is clear and maybe easier to access than using the overlay slider on the NLS maps.

Screenshots of current OS maps are strictly for personal use only.

regards,

Martin.

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dave turner
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What a feature; and you even started with my personal favourite station!

Dave
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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If you have tried adding map screenshots you may have noticed that they vanish while zooming in on them, until you zoom back out. Usually at the least convenient moment while closely aligning a template over them.

This is system and graphics chip/card dependent and caused by memory limitations in the Windows GDI StretchDraw function.

To prevent this happening, for 215b I have added an automatic conversion to 24-bit colour on loading the map screenshots. This significantly reduces the memory requirement by removing the alpha channel. That is used in graphics editor programs, but serves no purpose in Templot. There is no visible effect on the image on the trackpad.

This should also make for faster rendering and panning on the trackpad.

Picture shape images are converted to 24-bit colour in any event when saved and reloaded in the .sk8n files. But to avoid the palaver of saving and reloading files if you are having zooming problems with a picture shape, I have added a button on the background shapes dialog to perform the conversion:



In the next program update 215b.

regards,

Martin.

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Alan Turner
Dudley, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: In fact the old County Series 25" maps are not referenced to lat and lon at all, or even the OS National Grid which came later. Each County had its own map origin.


That's why it is a lot of work for the NLS to convert the individual sheet scans to a slippy map of the whole of Great Britain, georeferenced on the overlay to modern maps.
The County Series Maps are actually to a different map projection to the modern 1;2500 maps. Strictly they can't be overlaid on each other with accuracy.

regards

Alan

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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Alan Turner wrote:The County Series Maps are actually to a different map projection to the modern 1;2500 maps. Strictly they can't be overlaid on each other with accuracy.Hi Alan,

Yes. :?

This page:

 http://maps.nls.uk/geo/records/

has all the sheet outlines for the different series. It's clear that the older ones are curved to match the modern projection, some at odd angles, and a mish-mash of sizes. It makes you realise what a massive achievement it has been for the NLS to make all this stuff available online for free.

I'm trying, and failing, to decode the NLS sheet numbers in their URLs. I suspect the only way would be to have access to the NLS master index.

It seems that sheet numbers beginning "12..." are County Series 25" maps, "10..." are 6-inch maps, "13..." are modern 1250 and 2500 Maps.

But every time I think I've nailed it, I find some sheets which don't fit the pattern. For example:

 http://maps.nls.uk/view/101168126

is a 1" map.

I'm trying to get the individual sheets usable for auto-sized screenshots (see Richard's post above), but I think there will be no choice other than to ask the user for the scale of the map.

This page has an interesting article from the NLS:

 https://www.charlesclosesociety.org/files/Issue98page32.pdf

This page has clickable links to all the maps for a clicked location, which in some ways is easier to use than the NLS site:

 http://sheetfinder.charlesclosesociety.org/

regards,

Martin.

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richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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Oh no - I hope I've not caused any trouble...
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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richard_t wrote: Oh no - I hope I've not caused any trouble...Hi Richard,

You sure did. :)

I've spent hours displaying many "Find by place" individual map sheets, measuring pixel-widths on the screen, trying to figure out the scaling factors starting from zoom 0.

But I enjoy such challenges, and I think I've made some progress.

Because of the projection used, sheets from different counties placed side-by-side do not match up at the edges. Where the same content appears on sheets from two different counties, one is clearly skewed relative to the other.

For the georeferenced slippy maps, NLS have resampled and corrected these scans to match the modern maps. There are thousands of sheets, so it has clearly been a massive effort, and it is not surprising the georeferenced maps do not yet cover the entire country.

So it would be useful to be able to have the individual sheets auto-sized in Templot because they cover a much wider area and periods. But as I don't have access to such resampling software we can only capture screenshots as displayed in the browser from the original uncorrected scans.

After much messing about I have come to the conclusion that we can only do auto-sizing for the 25"/mile maps. The others come in such a mish-mash of sheet sizes and scales that it's impossible for Templot to be sure that it has scaled them correctly. Which is shame because there are some superb 1:500 town plans. That's 5 times larger than the 25" maps -- but they will have to sized manually to be used.

So it's now workable for the 25" maps and will be in the 215b program update shortly.

Here is your Chester URL:



regards,

Martin.

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David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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I look forward to the next update, I have my 25"/Mile Map of Moretonhampstead ready and waiting!
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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David Higgs wrote: I look forward to the next update, I have my 25"/Mile Map of Moretonhampstead ready and waiting!Hi David,

Moretonhampstead is on the georeferenced map, so you should be able to do it now in 215a.

Try copying and pasting this URL in the box (1904 map):

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=50.6577&lon=-3.7598&layers=168&b=2



Or are you waiting for one of the earlier maps, such as this from 1885:

 http://maps.nls.uk/view/136635962#zoom=5&lat=6537&lon=8014&layers=BT

Or the later 1936 map:

 http://maps.nls.uk/view/106004267#zoom=5&lat=8624&lon=10507&layers=BT

It's clear that being able to do the individual sheets in 215b will offer a lot more potential. :)

regards,

Martin.

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David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Hello Martin,
Thank you for your reply.

I'm hoping to model Moretonhampstead during the BR(W) period (1948 to 1958) in EM Gauge so the background shape that I hope to be using is:- http://maps.nls.uk/view/106004267
However I need to read up a bit more as I'm struggling to take in all of the above!
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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David Higgs wrote:However I need to read up a bit more as I'm struggling to take in all of the above!Hi David,

You are not the only one. :)

This topic has received a write-up in today's issue of Scalefour News, so I had better get on with it and get 215b released as soon as possible.

I will then make a proper tutorial showing how to use it.

You probably remember from schooldays that 1.5 miles = 7920 ft.

If only it was that simple. :?

The old County Series 25" map sheets cover an area 1.5 miles wide, so that's 7920ft, right?

Wrong. After they have been adjusted to a different projection for georeferencing, and the outlines displayed as such on the NLS index maps, they vary between 7900ft and 7915ft wide, and the scans are typically displayed 1860 dots wide between the margins at zoom level 3. I have spent a lot of time making these measurements from different corners of Great Britain on typical 25" map sheets.

Ideally Templot would have access to the clever NLS software which resamples these images to the georeferenced projection, but it doesn't. Nor for the individual sheets can Templot determine their location in Great Britain after making a screenshot from them, without access to the NLS master index.

So all we can do is apply an average conversion factor across the country and hope for the best.

For this purpose I have decided that 1.5 miles shall be 7905ft. Not least because it leads to a convenient round figure:

 8 x 7905 / 1860 = 34ft exactly.

That's 34 prototype feet per dot at zoom 0. The 8 converts from zoom 3 to zoom 0.

I have tested this by overlaying individual sheet screenshots on the georeferenced equivalent, with a good general match for sizing, leaving only some sheets slightly skewed for angle as is evident from the NLS index maps.

Just to clarify and repeat, all this applies only to the individual "Find by place" map sheets.

The "Explore georeferenced maps" options and URLs are working fine in 215a (no-one has reported otherwise) and likewise the tiled maps mentioned in Scalefour News.

regards,

Martin.

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from:
madscientist
 

 

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not to be a buzzkill, but personally , I cant see the point in exact track replications of ordinance survey maps ( or any real life track maps)

This is because almost without exception a model railway is a huge compromise and typically contains massive compression and or departures from reality
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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Maybe so, but maps are often an invaluable starting point when planning a model of a real location. I and many others have already done so. I regard the ability to use a background map for planning as one of Templots greatest facilities.
Regards
Tony.

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Dave Searle
Epsom, United Kingdom

 

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The ability to create a track layout based exactly on the OS & similar plans is precisely what we need for Lewes in 2mmFS

We have enlarged some 1:500 OS maps from 1873 to design the baseboards. Combining the track plan on those, and some scaled re-signalling plans from 1878, we are using them as the background to work on the track details in Templot.

So, to agree with Tony, for us, it is one of Templot's (many) great facilities.

Cheers,

Dave

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Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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Over the years I have Temploted several layout proposals from scanned OS maps, the largest was Devizes after it appeared in an MRJ. A thoroughly enjoyable exercise and almost made it to a layout except for a change of clubroom.

Phil.
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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While I'm trying to get 215b finished, the NLS is adding new maps. :)

They now have a slippy georefenced 25"/mile map for the West Country, 1873-1888, using maps from the British Library.

This is Norton Fitzwarren:


© National Library of Scotland and British Library

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: They now have a slippy georefenced 25"/mile map for the West Country, 1873-1888, using maps from the British Library.A fascinating map series for me, as it shows the Somerset and Dorset at a time when the Bath Extension was newly constructed and was still single tracked (though double tracked south of Evercreech Jn as far as Templecombe).

It also illustrates the limitations of the 25" series, in that the cartographers were not unduly concerned about the accuracy of the track alignments they drew. For example, here is Burnham from the 1873-1888 series:
Note the substantial misalignment of the track passing through the train shed, an error that was perpetuated on subsequent 25" plans of the town.  Plainly, if you assume that this can form the accurate basis for a Templot plan you are soon going to be in difficulty, so it's better to treat the 25" OS plans more as a guide than as holy writ.

Burnham is of particular interest to me, not only because it has been home for most of my life but also because it was chosen by a group of mainly Somerset-based modellers as our prototype for a P4 model in the late 1970's.  Without Templot, we had to plot our own track plan and turnout templates using a 40' :1"  rating plan, with no concessions as to length.  The layout (now in the throes of rejuvenation) incorporates a D9 for which, of course, no template was available commercially.

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David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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I've tried unsuccessfully to create a Background of Moretohampstead (4mm EM).
I select "Background/Maps" and choose "Real Location"   url
and have tried Grid Reference SX 757 856 but keep getting the script error and then select "Yes". When loading the map I get a message saying "failed due to Page Zoom" although I've tried the CTRL + 0 option.


As the help files suggest it most likely due to me / my system setup rather than Templot. I am using Windows 10 and Google Chrome.

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Martin Wynne
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Hi David,

I'm sorry there was a bug in version 215b preventing the screenshot maps from working on some systems. I'm hoping that I have now fixed it in 215c, although I can't be sure until we have received a few more reports.

To see your 1936/37 map of Moretonhampstead, copy and paste this URL into the upper box (other screenshot URL) and ignore the real location panel:

 http://maps.nls.uk/view/106004267#zoom=5&lat=8542&lon=10769&layers=BT

The map should appear when you click show map, and also the "Screenshot Maps - Please Read" notes. Please refer to section 3. Notes for NLS "Find by place" maps.

After which you should be able to make a screenshot which appears at the correct scale on the trackpad. Select the "County Series" option for the map.

There is some more info in this topic:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2400&forum_id=12&page=1#p22098

regards,

Martin.

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