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 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
41st message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 03:23
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Matt M.
Australia

 

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Martin,

Safari seems to consider the video container to be at at 1100 wide
regardless of zoom. The fuzziness stays the same just larger.
And thats on both a Thunderbolt 27 inch running at 2560 x 1440 resolution and
the Macbook Pro 15 inch running at 1680 x 1050 which is a smaller resolution
than best for retina displays.

I do remember asking someone with more tech knowledge about this
before regarding the fuzzy issues and was told it was an issue with an
incompatibility with Apple's display system and the codec's upscaling?
Not my area though.

It is viewable though, so unless the iPads have it much worst
I wouldn't consider it a massive problem re the getting the information from
the video. I've had worst from Youtube at supposedly high def for the same reason.

Genuinely Apples screens are as crisp as... usually... and the rest of the
Templot website has no problems.

The Opera screen grab PNG file looks identical to the Safari video to me which possibly
will tell you something.

Matt M.
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42nd message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 03:41
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Thanks Matt.

I think we are seeing the limit of what's possible using MP4 for line graphics.

Of course, it wouldn't be the least bit fuzzy in Flash, and the file size would be about one tenth of the MP4 file. Facts which those rubbishing Flash (including Apple) are seemingly willing to ignore. But that's all water under the bridge now that Adobe have said that they will be abandoning Flash in the face of such hostility.

Our FBR files are equally lossless, so I'm reconsidering whether to abandon them. It does annoy me that I can view perfectly crisp videos here, exactly as originally recorded, but I can't seem to find a means to deliver them to everyone else. Who are thereby condemned to watch fuzzy screen videos, which is ok for a minute or two but liable to give severe headache after longer periods.

cheers,

Martin.

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43rd message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 04:11
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from:
Matt M.
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While Flash does have some issues and Apple is a bit of a control freak,
Apple's problems with it stem from the fact that two of the most
aggressive trojan attacks on their OS were delivered using Flash.

As Flash is something they can't control it is out.

Apple has a tendency to do that with a few things.

I have watched MP4 files of high quality on my computer so it may just be a
codec compatibility issue. I have also seen some weird things graphically
in Windows 7 on the Bootcamp side of the computer my favourite being
the CAD program were every time you completed a circle it would disappear
behind the work surface never to be seen again. Only happen when running
on Windows in Bootcamp. Didn't happen on a PC.

I personally can cope with the light fuzzy that I get as the videos are very useful.
A 2 to 3 hour epic on layout a major station and yard may be different...

Matt M.
__________
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 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
44th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 04:57
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Thanks Matt.

Martin Wynne wrote: Also the embedded Templot FBR video player is not dpi-aware, and I don't have access to the manifest settings to make it so. It is down to individual users to make that change in the file compatibility properties, and of course hardly anyone is going to do that. Which means that on the modern hi-res monitors it is displayed using Windows virtualisation, producing results not much better or in some cases worse than MP4.The comments about the dreaded fuzziness have had me trying again at this, despite spending several hours on it once before. But a bit of inspired Googling led me to a possible solution, and I believe I can now make the player run dpi-aware without requiring users to delve into the .exe file properties.

Here is the evidence. Perfectly crisp, 1024 pixels wide, exactly as originally recorded, and running on my hi-res monitor at 120dpi. It was fuzzy on the same monitor earlier today.





The FBR player comes with Templot, but can't be accessed directly from a web site, so further thought needed. :?

regards,

Martin.

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45th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 05:13
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from:
Matt M.
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Martin your screen grab is definitely sharper than the video.
I viewed it as a separate png file in Preview, Apples native still graphics
viewer. At 100% alongside the video much better.

Matt M.
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46th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 09:51
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: madscientist wrote: Doesn't work on mobile safari on an apple mini iPad ( 10.2.1)  , can't get the video to go full screen so no proper video controls appear , can't activate space are to start video 
Your beginners narrated video however works perfectly 


Note it works using chrome on the iPad ,but pity it doesn't play nice with safari. The issue is the full screen mode can't be activated 
Hi David,

Thanks for that. I knew it wouldn't be plain sailing.

Why do you need it to go full screen? The player controls should appear if you hover the mouse over it at any size.

What do you want to make full-screen, the video or the full web page/browser?

Which browser do most iPad users use? Chrome or Safari? Paul said it worked ok in Safari on his iPad.

My beginners narrated video? Which one is that?

cheers,

Martin.
Actually I erred , it works after a fashion , by holding down your finger on the start screen then the big play button works. , what I meant was that you should be able to select a full screen option and on apple iOS when you do that you get proper video controls on the bottom and progress sliders along  the top . The video does not seem to be aware of the screen size. 
As for the narrated video , I can't find the link , but you referenced it on scaleforum in relation to a beginner query. It's the only one I can remember where you narrated the process of adding a curve turnout to an existing turnout. 


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47th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 09:55
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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Matt M. wrote: While Flash does have some issues and Apple is a bit of a control freak,
Apple's problems with it stem from the fact that two of the most
aggressive trojan attacks on their OS were delivered using Flash.

As Flash is something they can't control it is out.

Apple has a tendency to do that with a few things.

I have watched MP4 files of high quality on my computer so it may just be a
codec compatibility issue. I have also seen some weird things graphically
in Windows 7 on the Bootcamp side of the computer my favourite being
the CAD program were every time you completed a circle it would disappear
behind the work surface never to be seen again. Only happen when running
on Windows in Bootcamp. Didn't happen on a PC.

I personally can cope with the light fuzzy that I get as the videos are very useful.
A 2 to 3 hour epic on layout a major station and yard may be different...

Matt M.
Apples primarty issue with flash , is it's a massive security hole , leaking data back to adobe 





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48th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 09:59
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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Martyn , I don't understand why this is all so complex , you can use screen recording software like FBR to create MP4 files , everything will handle MP4 these days
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49th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 10:00
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Matt M.
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Yeah. That is the control issue. It isn't the only program that does that though.
Most like Facebook are voluntary.

Matt M.
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50th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 10:18
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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I still don't quite understand your issues with MP4. Internally flv, flash also in effect uses H264 , H264 can deliver very high resolutions with better bitrates then flash a on2 codec etc 
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51st message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 10:29
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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madscientist wrote: Martyn , I don't understand why this is all so complex , you can use screen recording software like FBR to create MP4 files , everything will handle MP4 these daysHi Dave,

Yes I know it will, and that's what I'm doing.

But it's FUZZY, and it drives me mad when I know it needn't be.

Would you use lossy JPG for a CAD drawing, instead of lossless PNG? Of course not. So why are we being forced to do that with videos? If there are two different formats for still images, why not for video? Even decades-old animated GIFs have better sharpness for screen graphics than MP4 files.

And another thing. File sizes for that video:

     FBR fully interactive: 1156 KB.

     SWF (Flash) fully interactive: 1218 KB

     MP4 same video, without interactive functions: 4841 KB.

4 times or more on the file size for worse quality and less functionality.

Ok, Flash is dying, and is barred from Apple devices, so it would be daft to hang on to it.

But that doesn't mean we have to accept the limitations of MP4 if we can find a way round. Just because Apple says so.

No-one disputes that MP4 is very clever at encoding real-world photographic images, where every pixel is a different shade. The same as JPG for still photographs.

But that's not what we are trying to record for screen graphics. It's infuriating that we are being forced to use the wrong tool to record that.

regards,

Martin.

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52nd message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 10:38
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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Ok found it

https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=BDXvSdUuD-vmjFK4us4vxA2

That plays perfectly , as you can select the " opposing arrows " full screen option once the video starts. Then you get proper video controls on the iPad

Whereas for some reason , your test video here , doesn't present a full screen option and you never get the correct set of video controls
__________
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53rd message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:02
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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madscientist wrote: Ok found it

https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=BDXvSdUuD-vmjFK4us4vxA2

Hi Dave,

But that's the full web page from the FlashBackConnect host. This is the present one in the same format: 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=UJw2efyiA7SvCOidDlmRrQ2

That's no help in a tutorial where you want to top and tail it with text and possibly have several videos on the same page. For that I'm embedding it in an iframe on the page. And it's working fine here in Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Edge, even IE11.

It seems to be only when Apple gets involved that it all goes wrong. Even the Android browser displays the video as intended, but loses the interactive pauses.

regards,

Martin.

__________
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54th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:09
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madscientist
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: madscientist wrote: Ok found it

https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=BDXvSdUuD-vmjFK4us4vxA2

Hi Dave,

But that's the full web page from the FlashBackConnect host. This is the present one in the same format: 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=UJw2efyiA7SvCOidDlmRrQ2

That's no help in a tutorial where you want to top and tail it with text and possibly have several videos on the same page. For that I'm embedding it in an iframe on the page. And it's working fine here in Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Edge, even IE11. It seems to be only when Apple gets involved that it all goes wrong.

regards,

Martin.
Hi , Martin 
That link exhibits the same peculiarity. You can't select any form of full screen mode and get the appropriate video player controls. 

It does work fine though , by tapping the screen to release the pause on my iPad even if I can't select a full screen mode 

The lines are  fuzzy , but is this H264 full resolution encoding , it seems low res to me 

In relation to the companion , all you want can be done in HTML 5 , including multiple videos on a page etc. 


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55th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:15
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By the way HTML 5 has deprecated many attributes of the iframe tag. It can create issues with modern HTML 5 compliant browsers , this is often the source of issues with safari, which I find to very compliant , ( with the ex exception of various hardware query APIs, which apple will not support )
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56th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:19
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madscientist
 

 

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I'll create , later today, a quick MP4 on my mac of a templot session to see if I duplicate the fuzzy line issues , I don't remember this being an issue when I did some cad videos recently
This doesn't deal  with the interactive element of course , the only way I know how to do that in MP4 is to pause and release the movie using JavaScript in a web browser 

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57th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:32
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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madscientist wrote: By the way HTML 5 has deprecated many attributes of the iframe tag. It can create issues with modern HTML 5 compliant browsers , this is often the source of issues with safari, which I find to very compliant , ( with the ex exception of various hardware query APIs, which apple will not support )Thanks, see:

 https://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_iframe.asp

The only ones of those deprecated which I was using was scrolling and frameborder. I have now removed them from the page, so you might like to try again (CTRL+F5 to update):

 http://templot.com/companion/4_where_do_i_start.html

Martin.

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58th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:48
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Martin Wynne wrote: madscientist wrote: By the way HTML 5 has deprecated many attributes of the iframe tag. It can create issues with modern HTML 5 compliant browsers , this is often the source of issues with safari, which I find to very compliant , ( with the ex exception of various hardware query APIs, which apple will not support )Thanks, see:

 https://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_iframe.asp

The only ones of those deprecated which I was using was scrolling and frameborder. I have now removed them from the page, so you might like to try again (CTRL+F5 to update):

 http://templot.com/companion/4_where_do_i_start.html

Martin.
Works fine , pauses and then continues on screen tap, I'm puzzled as to why there is no full screen option , I think on apple mobile browsers full screen discards any interactive elements so maybe that's why it's not available 
The main thing is it works. 


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59th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:53
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 a screen shot of that last video at a pause point , on a iPad mini retina 2048 x1536
Note the screen shot is much better on the iPad then displayed on this web page 

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60th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 12:14
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Martin Wynne
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madscientist wrote: a screen shot of that last video at a pause point , on a iPad mini retina 2048 x1536
Note the screen shot is much better on the iPad then displayed on this web page
Thanks Dave.

That's because it has been resized to fit. Try adding it as an attachment instead.

Here is a crop from your original upload to the image gallery:



If that is a true representation of what you are seeing, I honestly don't know how you can watch it for long. I couldn't without getting a headache. Why not reduce it to the intended 1024 pixels width? It would be much nicer to look at.

regards,

Martin.

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61st message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 12:16
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As an aside can you configure your MP4 encoder for lossless ( QP =0) operation. ffmpeg etc can do this
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62nd message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 12:20
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I find it absolutely fine on the mini iPad zoom to screen extent , the iPad mini is too small to watch it smaller  Your overlay text is sharp ,templot menus are sharp  and the track is slightly fuzzy , but nothing that detracts from the excercise  Are your sure your encoding at the highest bitrate and QP setting your MP4 encoder is capable of. In reality file size is not as a concern as it once  was , well I have 100 meg fibre ! 
I have a look at this on my 27 " iMac which is a similar resolution but far bigger screen 

Ps i do agree out of the box H264 has issues as you point out, its focused on bit rate ecomony 

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Attachment: IMG_0107.PNG (Downloaded 10 times)
 
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63rd message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 13:02
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Dave,

I would be interested to hear your comparison between the iPad and the 27" Mac.
The screen shots so far have looked worse on the iPad than on either of my displays.

Out of interest I went into Bootcamp and played the video on Firefox.
The resolution issue seemed a little worse but that could be because I haven't
needed to fine tweak either display for anything I use Windows for.

Both display are at what Windows 7 considers their optimal resolution
but the video is unreadable on 15" at 100% and too large at 200% and
there doesn't appear to be any choice in-between. The 27" looks a little rougher
as I have already mentioned but otherwise readable.

In my case the quality of the video is fine for what it is supposed to do.

Martin don't lose to much sleep over it. I don't think it is worth
pulling your hair out in frustration.

The program is a fantastic. A great help to those of us that like accurate track.
And the back up has always been fantastic.
And the forum has been a joy. I have learnt so much following some of the
discussions. Even when they go off topic.
I'll probably end up joining MERG before the end of the year.

By the way I haven't been into Bootcamp since the last Templot update.
AVG sent me a message that Templot exe was fine and happily put on their
okay programs list. Just thought you would like to know.

Mind you I couldn't work out how to shut down their large notification message.
That was irritating...


Matt M.
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64th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 13:19
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madscientist wrote: As an aside can you configure your MP4 encoder for lossless ( QP =0) operation. ffmpeg etc can do thisHi Dave,

I'm using FlashBack Pro 5 to record FBR files. According to the program credits it is using libavcodec from ffmpeg.

I can export to MP4 and set it for 100% image quality, although it doesn't specifically mention lossless. The codec is: "openh264 provided by Cisco Systems Inc."

But the file is of no use because it does not contain the interactive pauses, clickable buttons, etc.

File attached below to see what I mean.

To get the interactive functions I must upload the FBR file to FlashBackConnect. They then do the conversion to MP4 and add the interactive functions in their web player. I have no control over that conversion -- or at least not currently. FlashBackConnect is still in beta so further options may yet get added.

Here's my MP4 file, set to 100% quality. Set your player to 1024 pixels wide for best results.

cheers,

Martin.

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Attachment: Templot_Explained__first_off___2.mp4 (Downloaded 23 times)
 
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65th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 13:27
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Just played it on VLC and looks just the same as in Safari.

The quickly flashing text boxes are fun to try and stop for...


Matt M.
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66th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 13:50
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I take that back. It is better on the Thunderbolt 27" than on the Retina 15".
As Dave mentioned the track is a little fuzzy but all the rest is really good.

I went back and let the Safari imbedded version play without trying to
change the size and is is not bad either.
But when I made it larger it developed that fuzzy look and then staid that way
even when I reduced the size.

Before it was like that all the time so something is working.

Matt M.
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Matt M. wrote: Just played it on VLC and looks just the same as in Safari.

The quickly flashing text boxes are fun to try and stop for...


Matt M.

I am getting that on my Android tablet, the earlier version worked fine, just a dab of the screen to continue.

Phil



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68th message | this message only posted: 26 Oct 2017 16:39
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I can confirm the video looks fine on my 27" mac , looks better then on the mini iPad. I attach a screenshot * for what its worth  Obviously the video is a fixed resolution ( 1200 horizontal ) as I cant expand it beyond that Basically Martin , stop obsessing about it and its fine :D dave
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Screenshot 2017-10-26 16.35.26.png
 
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69th message | this message only posted: 26 Oct 2017 16:52
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madscientist
 

 

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Martin , I downloaded that MP4 you added in your reply to me 
Heres the data panel on it ( attached ) 

Note the resolution is fairly limited , at 1240 x 640, obviously on high res screens like the iPad, this is not actually enough 

Note also the data rate is only just on the acceptable side of OK, 720p video for example is usually encoded at 2-3 mb/s and Netflix encodes at 5mb/s 

IN essence these are " medium " res movies and that why they look a little off on apples ( which tend to be very sharp and precise high res displays ) 







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Attached Image (viewed 115 times):

Screenshot 2017-10-26 16.47.30.png
 
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70th message | this message only posted: 26 Oct 2017 16:55
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heres a partial screen capture of the Mp4 zoom in Quick time to about 2000pixels across 
you can clearly see the image is sharp but there simply isnt enough resolution for this type of display ( as you can see the horizontal and vertical lines are well defined ) 
The text is most likely anti-aliased so looks better then it is  , which of course you could consider for the track display as well !!!!!



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Screenshot 2017-10-26 16.52.30.png
 
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71st message | this message only posted: 26 Oct 2017 18:10
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Heres a 10 second MP4 video captured from my Mac running templot in a window under Parallels 
The initial capture was run at full lossless MOV and converted in a compressed MP4, the initial MOV file is over 30 Mb in size !.  

The resulting  Mp4 is at 2249 x 1276 
FPS: 10 
Data rate 3.79 MB/s
file size 4.7 Mb 

Note the complete lack of fuzzy bits compared to your video
obviously its a trade off between file size and resolution/compression 


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Attachment: MacX Screen Recorder 2017-10-26 at p.m. 05.30.07 (3).mp4 (Downloaded 14 times)
 
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72nd message | this message only posted: 26 Oct 2017 18:27
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Dave,

Thanks for that info, but just to repeat, that isn't the MP4 file which anyone is or will be seeing.

You asked me about the MP4 creation capability in FlashBack so I exported one for you as an example. It's of no practical use at all because it doesn't have the interactive pauses.

The actual MP4 in use is the one being streamed on this page:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=UJw2efyiA7SvCOidDlmRrQ2

It's embedded in an iframe on the Templot Companion page.

I have no control over the creation of that MP4 or its settings. I could change the frame rate in the original FBR recording (I use 20fps), but I have to bear in mind that not all users have high-spec systems for fast playback.

That's also the reason for recording it at 1024 pixels wide. I could make videos 2560 pixels wide, but then they wouldn't fit dot-for-dot on many users screens.

Dot-for-dot is important because the content is line graphics. For which MP4 is totally unsuitable, but appears to be the only web distribution mechanism now available. Apart from animated GIFs.

cheers,

Martin.

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73rd message | this message only posted: 26 Oct 2017 18:54
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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madscientist wrote:Note the complete lack of fuzzy bits compared to your video??? It's extremely fuzzy here, with streaks across it.

I set it to 2249 x 1276 on my screen, as you said, and this is a bit of it:



Not everyone will be able to view it at that size, but when reduced the text is too small to read easily, and very fuzzy.

And its nearly 5MB for just a few seconds!

We seem to be at cross purposes somewhere. :?

Now that I have got the Templot Video Player running dpi-aware, I'm working on a mechanism to make it easy to swap to it from the Companion page.

This is what that looks like, and it's a fraction of the file size (set your browser dot-for-dot to match the ruler):



cheers,

Martin.

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74th message | this message only posted: 26 Oct 2017 19:10
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I understand the debate re MP4 and how you use it . What I was trying to show you is that the issue isnt Mp4 or Apple, the issue is the settings for the encoding

as to your comment are streaks and etc , I dont understand how you are viewing this file, I have viewed in VLC under windows , VLC under mac, Quicktime and iMovie , all show it perfect at the converted resolution . perhaps you have a graphics card issue .

As I said , this isnt an Apple issue , its a Mp4 encoding setting issue. the MP4 can be constructed to remove the aliasing and fuzzy issues at the cost of larger file sizes
Again the issue is the resolution and colour depth of modern displays , the original lossless MOV for that 10 seconds  is over 30 MB !

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75th message | this message only posted: 26 Oct 2017 19:23
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This is what that looks like, and it's a fraction of the file size (set your browser dot-for-dot to match the ruler):
by default thats how it opens in safari , i.e. pixel for pixel 

but at higher resolutions like the iPad retina , or when zoomed on a big display, the underlying lack of resolution will cause some issues, aka fuzzy bits and issues with non vertical lines.

but as I and others have said , the issue isnt worth worrying about , the content itself is more valuable then a bit of fuzz:D

cheers 

dave 

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76th message | this message only posted: 26 Oct 2017 19:42
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Martin Wynne
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madscientist wrote: as to your comment are streaks and etc , I dont understand how you are viewing this fileHi Dave,

Viewing in Windows10 on a Microsoft Surface Pro.

I have 3 apps for viewing it.

The default Windows "Films & TV" app which I used. The others are the "Photos" app, and old-style "Windows Media Player". The result is the same in all of them.

the MP4 can be constructed to remove the aliasing and fuzzy issues at the cost of larger file sizesLarger file sizes! It is already many times larger than the lossless FBR format. The MPEG compression may be wonderful for real world photography, but it's totally unsuitable for lossless line graphics, compared to the alternatives (which HTML5 no longer supports).

I don't feel this is going anywhere useful?

regards,

Martin.

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77th message | this message only posted: 27 Oct 2017 13:42
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The default Windows "Films & TV" app which I used. The others are the "Photos" app, and old-style "Windows Media Player". The result is the same in all of them. cant comment ,  dont have win10 , nasty rubbish !. :D WMP cant play MP4 unless you add a codec and most of them are rubbish . Video plays perfectly on Win7 on two machines. PS I suggest you download VLC , which has a good MPEG decoder Larger file sizes! It is already many times larger than the lossless FBR format. The MPEG compression may be wonderful for real world photography, but it's totally unsuitable for lossless line graphics, compared to the alternatives (which HTML5 no longer supports). jeepers , I know, but its the way of the world !!:thumb: 
I don't feel this is going anywhere useful?It was only a point to demonstrate that with proper settings MP4 can  encode line graphics and Apple screens are the best on the planet , nothing more :cool:

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