Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 3069Companion changes
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posted: 1 Sep 2017 13:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Dear all,

In preparing the next program update for release, it has dawned on me that I have made a big rod for my own back with the multiple formats for the Templot Companion. At present we have:

1. An online version in the responsive web format. This was intended to be better suited to mobile devices, but I can't say I found it easy to use on them, especially the clunky format for the A-Z Index.

2. An embedded version in Templot itself in EWriter format, with content updated from the server every time Templot starts up. When it works I like it, and it provides additional interactive program functions not possible on the web version. But there are problems with the zoom settings and window size on different monitors. It can be very frustrating to get it just right for system you are using.

3. A simplified basic interactive viewer in the program which can't be updated between program versions, mainly for Linux/CrossOver/Wine systems which don't support the EWriter format.

On top of that we have the internal Help notes in the program with PHP redirection options which have never yet gone anywhere, and two video formats.

It won't have escaped your notice that despite all the above options, or maybe because of them, the actual content in the new Templot Companion is still very sparse, and for most information it is still necessary to refer back to the long out-of-date old Companion pages.

I have come to the conclusion that there is no way I can support all the above in the coming years and progress the Companion a bit more quickly.

So in the next program update I have removed options 2. and 3. above, and the Templot Companion will revert to an online web version only.

But not in the responsive format. It's important, to me at least, that the A-Z Index is easy to use and browsable as the main entry point to the content.

So I have devised a new format for the online Companion: :)

2_010754_230000000.png2_010754_230000000.png

The two columns on the left provide the Contents List and A-Z Index, and on smaller screens this is all you will see. Clicking items on either of those opens the relevant information page in a separate browser tab. This has pros and cons, but the big advantage is that on mobile devices the full screen area is available for screenshots and diagrams. You can also choose to have several pages open at the same time in different tabs if you wish.

On larger screens, some or all of this Templot Club web site will fill the remainder of the screen on the right, so that all Templot information is available in one place. On a wide enough screen Templot Club will be usable there. If all you can see of it is the signal in the picture, clicking on it will open Templot Club in a separate browser tab.

This is available now at:

 http://templot.com/companion

if you would like to try it. Comments welcome.

If you don't see the above, press CTRL+F5.

Having just the one format to support makes it much easier for me to update and add fresh content, and I'm hoping the result of these changes is that it progresses a bit faster in future.

And I want to get the PHP redirection working. It's silly having links to "more information online" if none of them go anywhere. Having just the one Companion format simplifies that a lot.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 1 Sep 2017 15:34

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Looks fine to me (on an old XP laptop; main PC is currently stuck in a Repair loop, which I am slowly getting to grips with :(). Reckon sticking to one approach is much the best way forward.

Nigel
Last edited on 1 Sep 2017 15:44 by Nigel Brown
posted: 1 Sep 2017 15:52

from:

Charles Orr
 
Leicester - United Kingdom

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Looks great on my ultra wide monitor (3440x1440)  :)

Charles

posted: 1 Sep 2017 20:39

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

Looks very good to me, contents, A-Z and Templot club all display together on my 1920x1080 monitor.

Nothing to do with Templot but the 'hold CTRL to open in an additional tab' will often produce the same as not holding it depending on browser settings.

Good luck with the 'documentation'.

Rob


posted: 2 Sep 2017 08:27

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Thanks for the favourable comments. :)

Rob Manchester wrote:
Nothing to do with Templot but the 'hold CTRL to open in an additional tab' will often produce the same as not holding it depending on browser settings.
Hi Rob,

In this case pages open in a named tab, so without CTRL they should always open in the same tab. It seems to work in several browsers in my tests, but of course ultimately I have no control over a user's browser settings. Whether the browser actually switches to the tab is another user setting.

All I can say is that using Firefox on my systems everything always works as I expect and intend. Other browsers, maybe not.

That's the problem with relying solely on a web-based format -- browsers are a minefield to keep track of. I have enough to do with Templot without getting into extreme web design.

For example, in the FlashbackConnect videos, why does the Android browser not support the interactive pauses? Whereas Google Chrome on the same device does? They are essentially the same browser.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Sep 2017 19:46

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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I can see most of it on my tablet and by panning across I can see the rest. Samsung tab 6 10.1 screen and Firefox.

posted: 3 Sep 2017 07:55

from:

FraserSmith
 
Dundee - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

I was reading this this morning whilst eating my porridge so was active with it at times and leaving it for a while while eating. On my laptop all was as expected. I then tried it on my Android powered MotoG4 and got much as you described. I had the two left hand columns and a sliver of the rest of the screen, the bit with the signal, that I could scroll left and right and up and down behind the two columns. When leaving it for a while whilst the signal bit was scrolled to the left, the sliver broke out on top and it did not seem to be possible to scroll it as I could before. I could access items from that page but it wan't obvious how to get back to the two columns. I found that refresh would put it back OK. It was also interesting that trying to scroll the part with the signal if it was over the first or second column would scroll either the first or second second column underneath it. It had this behaviour in both landscape and portrait modes. I've just discovered that touching where the sliver was will make it go behind the first two columns again. If you want pictures of this I will try and capture some as it appears possible to do so without affecting what's on the screen.

HTH

edit this was with Firefox on the Android

Fraser
Last edited on 3 Sep 2017 07:59 by FraserSmith
posted: 3 Sep 2017 13:01

from:

Mark Zagrodney
 
Ontario Canada

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Hello Martin,
Anything that makes documentation easier for you to keep up with (or pursue, as it were) is a good thing!

Because you need another technology to manage :), I have a suggestion for you future consideration.

The problem you are facing with producing documentation for a software product in multiple formats is a common one and I have past experience one solution: the Darwin Information Typing Architecture(DITA).  It is an XML standard for marking up technical documentation source text and is supported by at least one robust open source toolchain for generating different output formats(HTML, PDF, etc) DITA Open Toolkit.

Mark



posted: 3 Sep 2017 21:17

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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FraserSmith wrote:
I was reading this this morning whilst eating my porridge ...
Hi Fraser,

Thanks for your report.

I'm finding the same with Firefox on my Android tablet -- but only when in landscape mode. When turned to portrait format it seems to work normally. That's not the only app which doesn't like landscape mode, the OS Maps app is the same, and others don't use the whole screen properly in landscape. I assume it's a bug in Android.

In landscape mode Firefox randomly rearranges the frames on the screen at intervals, for no obvious reason. I found that by tapping the right-hand edge of the Templot Club frame it restores the normal view for a while.

That page is a bog-standard "HTML4.01 Frameset" DTD, so Firefox should know what it's doing. If I change to the latest HTML5 and iframes, the tabs don't work as intended.

I have updated the page so that clicking the Contents List and A-Z Index headings opens them in a separate tab if necessary, to make life easier. It's not intended that Templot Club should be usable on there if you can't see all of it, clicking the top image opens it in a separate tab.

The native Android browser seems to work fine, apart from the problem with pauses in the FlashbackConnect videos.

The solution for now seems to be use Firefox in portrait format, and zoom in if the text is too small.

p.s. September seems a bit early in the year for porridge, but I thought about it this morning as the weather here has been so miserable all day today. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 3 Sep 2017 21:46

from:

FraserSmith
 
Dundee - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

Porridge with flaked almonds nearly every day. After seeing a Michael Mosely program about the cholesterol clearing potential of the combination I started taking them so I can have my porridge  blue milk and the occasional leftover of clotted cream!

I do hope this consolidation to one version of the web resources will do as you hope and reduce the time you expend making it available. It's very, very much appreciated. I really don't know how you manage to do much on the program and the web especially when there are test matches going on.

My brother uses RapidWeaver for making and maintaining web pages that he says are optimised to cope with all the different formats people use today but it's only available for the mac and it costs £70. Whether there is anything else like it that runs on another platform I don't know.

Thanks again

Fraser

posted: 3 Sep 2017 21:49

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Mark Zagrodney wrote:
The problem you are facing with producing documentation for a software product in multiple formats is a common one and I have past experience one solution: the Darwin Information Typing Architecture(DITA).
Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.

I do have suitable software for creating the docs in multiple formats:

 http://www.helpandmanual.com

which I have been using for years, not only for Templot.

The problem is not so much compiling the content in the different formats, but delivering it and more importantly updating it in between Templot program versions. For example at present I have a new program version almost ready for release. If I delay it until I have also updated the docs, it could be many months before it gets released. I can't do both at once. If I create PDFs or CHMs now and include them with an immediate release, they will be out-of-date very soon as I work on the updated docs.

I had hoped that the EWriter format with content updated from the server was the answer, especially with its ability to integrate directly with the program: "click here to see this happen now". But getting it to appear crisp dpi-aware at a suitable size on everything from a tablet to a widescreen monitor is too much of a headache. It's no good if it appears all fuzzy with no way for the user to correct it. If Alex Halser at EC-Software ever makes the source available, so that I can force it dpi-aware and scale it to match the Templot program sizing, I will look at going back to it.

So the web format seems the best option, and using an old-style frameset I can link context help from the program to a specific tab. At least that's the plan for now -- I have had grand plans in the past which came to nothing. :?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 3 Sep 2017 22:12

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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FraserSmith wrote:
My brother uses RapidWeaver for making and maintaining web pages that he says are optimised to cope with all the different formats people use today but it's only available for the mac and it costs £70. Whether there is anything else like it that runs on another platform I don't know.
Hi Fraser,

Thanks. There are several programs which do much the same to create "responsive" web pages for different formats.

The previous online version of the Templot Companion was supposed to be exactly that. It's still on the server if you want to see it again:

 http://templot.com/companion_old/index.html?kwindex=$hmindex

But I didn't find it easy to use on any device, and especially the awful A-Z Index panel. That's the essential entry point to the Templot Companion in my view (perhaps not everyone agrees?), but it is not a feature required on most web sites.

p.s. I found some flaked almonds in the cupboard and sprinkled them on various stuff. I didn't know they were doing me good. The only thing I know about my blood is that it's red.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 24 Oct 2017 15:57

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Well the removal of the embedded Templot Companion from version 215 led to questions in the House no reaction at all, so I'm minded now to do the same with the embedded video player.

Despite originally spending many hours configuring it and creating the internal downloading and updating mechanisms.

Two reasons. It's high time I made some progress with the Companion, and I need to make the least amount of work. Creating multiple formats of things just takes too long.

And secondly despite numerous rants about it over the years, I'm throwing in the towel on the issue of the unsuitability of HTML5 MP4 encoding for line graphics. The social media sites have won, and the near-death of Flash means that most folks don't realise just how much better a lossless codec would be for screen capture video. Even the top software supplier sites have given in and are now using MP4 for their tutorial videos.

Also the embedded Templot FBR video player is not dpi-aware, and I don't have access to the manifest settings to make it so. It is down to individual users to make that change in the file compatibility properties, and of course hardly anyone is going to do that. Which means that on the modern hi-res monitors it is displayed using Windows virtualisation, producing results not much better or in some cases worse than MP4.

At the same time FlashBackConnect have improved their MP4 image quality, and now implement the full FBR interactive functions on their MP4 player.

So that is the only format I shall be using for Templot videos for the future. I have spent a bit of time embedding the full FlashBackConnect web page, rather than their offered embedded version, because at present that doesn't provide the same image quality or full interactive functions.

So I would welcome some feedback on the video on this page:

 http://templot.com/companion/4_where_do_i_start.html

Not about the video content (it's unchanged beginner stuff), but about how it looks/fits on your screen, how easy to access, click/tap for stop/start, text size for reading the notes, etc. I know some folks like to watch the videos on a tablet while running Templot on their main computer.

For the best image quality, try zooming in or out on your device/browser until it is displaying dot-for-dot, which means the actual video area will be 1024 pixels wide.

At present I'm seeing the best results on Microsoft Edge -- which has to be admitted through gritted teeth, and also on Opera which always performs well.

On Android devices you will probably need to use Google Chrome rather than the native Browser, otherwise it won't pause to read the notes.

thanks,

Martin.

posted: 24 Oct 2017 16:22

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
It's a shame that MP4 won out - I guess it's like the Betamax/VHS scenario where the lowest quality wins!

Anyway, I can report that the video worked fine in Safari on my iPad, even if a little fuzzy. (I'll just duck for cover!!) It zoomed up ok, once I'd found the button.  I don't normally like videos, preferring to read things at my own pace, but the automatic stopping feature is nice so I don't have to worry about trying to stop it at just the right time.

Cheers,
Paul

posted: 24 Oct 2017 16:41

from:

Andrew Barrowman
 
USA

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Looks OK on my Kindle Fire, native Silk browser. Pause/Start seems to work correctly.

Time to get up and walk the dogs I think:)
ab

posted: 24 Oct 2017 16:57

from:

John Shelley
 
St Ciers Sur Gironde 33820 - France

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Greetings Martin,

I'm using Firefox 56.0.1 (64 bit version) on Windows 7 Home premium OS.

Image seems good, no fuzziness that I could see.  The grid lines are fine.  The video stops automatically so that I can read the notes.  When it's paused clicking on the video starts it again, but using the spacebar to restart doesn't start it again, but rather scrolls to the bottom of the page.   This may be a quirk of my setup.  I'll try on some other browsers, but not for a while as I'm trying to get some other things finished.

John, from St Ciers

posted: 24 Oct 2017 17:05

from:

Raymond
 
Bexhill-on-sea - United Kingdom

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No John,
It did the same on my Firefox setup to with Windows 7 professional (64) bit).
Last edited on 24 Oct 2017 17:06 by Raymond
posted: 24 Oct 2017 17:13

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Sorry I should have explained to ignore the note in the videos about pressing the spacebar. That applies only on the embedded Templot Video Player, not this web version.

So that's something else I now need to update on many of the videos.

In web browsers, pressing the spacebar is equivalent to Page Down.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 24 Oct 2017 17:17

from:

John Shelley
 
St Ciers Sur Gironde 33820 - France

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Sorry I should have explained to ignore the note in the videos about pressing the spacebar. That applies only on the embedded Templot Video Player, not this web version.

So that's something else I now need to update on many of the videos.

In web browsers, pressing the spacebar is equivalent to Page Down.

regards,

Martin.
Thanks for the comment Martin, it'll save me going through my settings.

Now what was that saying, something about the main causes of problems being fixes.  :D

John,  from St Ciers

posted: 24 Oct 2017 17:20

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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p.s. Shift+Spacebar is Page Up.

Applies to all web sites.

Martin.

posted: 24 Oct 2017 17:31

from:

DaveJ61
 
Northampton - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

Just to let you know, that video looks fine on my 4K monitor.

David.

(Should have said that the browser I used was Firefox and screen resolution is 3840 x 2160)
Last edited on 24 Oct 2017 20:16 by DaveJ61
posted: 24 Oct 2017 17:34

from:

John Shelley
 
St Ciers Sur Gironde 33820 - France

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Martin Wynne wrote:
p.s. Shift+Spacebar is Page Up.

Applies to all web sites.

Martin.
Martin,

Thank you.  My knowledge of things Internet has increased by two this afternoon. :thumb:

John, from St Ciers

posted: 24 Oct 2017 18:33

from:

John Shelley
 
St Ciers Sur Gironde 33820 - France

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Greetings Martin,

I've tried now with all the following browsers under Windows 7 Home Premium and all appears to be OK.

There did seem to be a difference in the size of the video window depending on which browser I was using, but can be sorted by enlarge or reduce - yes I did check that I was at zero size change each time.

Maxon - 3.4.5.2000
Opera - 48.0.2685.50
Sea Monkey - 2.48
Safari - 5.1.7 (7534.57.2)
IE - 11.0.9600.18499
Chrome - 62.0.3202.62

However your "trick" with spacebar to page down didn't work in all of them - but that isn't a Templot thing so we'll ignore it. :)

John, from St Ciers

posted: 24 Oct 2017 19:38

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

The video is fine for me on a 1920x1200 desktop monitor. As I have said before the most important aspect is getting the information across to users rather than bells and whistles.

Rob


posted: 24 Oct 2017 19:56

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Rob Manchester wrote:
The video is fine for me on a 1920x1200 desktop monitor. As I have said before the most important aspect is getting the information across to users rather than bells and whistles.
Hi Rob,

I agree, but first I need to be sure that the delivery mechanism is working.

There would be no good putting detailed notes in the video if it doesn't pause for them to be read.

I could be sure of that in the FBR player embedded in Templot, but what happens in other folks' browsers is a constant mystery to me. Often reports of what folks are seeing bears no resemblance to anything I'm seeing here.

For example, at present the videos are useless on my two Android devices using the native Browser. It is necessary to install the Google Chrome app and use that instead, or the Firefox app. Despite mentioning this several times, no-one has confirmed to me that the same applies to their devices, or to Apple iPads, or anything else.

So which browser do most folks use on Android devices? Does the Templot video pause correctly on there?   

Thanks all for the feedback.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 24 Oct 2017 20:31

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,
The video plays fine on my Linux setup using Firefox.
Regards.
Trevor.:)

posted: 24 Oct 2017 21:30

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Martin ->"I agree, but first I need to be sure that the delivery mechanism is working."

Martin,

Of course you do, the bells and whistles I was commenting on were more to do with tweaks and changes to the font sizes, messages and such like ( assuming you remember to take out the spacebar option ).

Do you get any analytics  in terms of how many people watch the different videos ? You could delay answering questions on technique until you had evidence that the poster has seen the video :shock:

Rob



posted: 24 Oct 2017 21:38

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Hi Martin,

It works in Safari running on the Apple OS 10. . A little fuzzy as usual with Apple's display but readable and responds to the stop and restart requirement perfectly well.

Matt M.

posted: 24 Oct 2017 22:49

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Despite mentioning this several times, no-one has confirmed to me that the same applies to their devices, or to Apple iPads, or anything else.
On the iPad, Safari is the native browser, and it works fine as I mentioned earlier!

posted: 24 Oct 2017 22:55

from:

bainin
 
Trim Co Meath - Ireland

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Fine on iPhone 5, ios 10.3.3, using Safari.Mike 

posted: 25 Oct 2017 00:50

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Hurray for MP4 , flash is dead

posted: 25 Oct 2017 00:53

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Doesn't work on mobile safari on an apple mini iPad ( 10.2.1)  , can't get the video to go full screen so no proper video controls appear , can't activate space are to start video 
Your beginners narrated video however works perfectly 


Note it works using chrome on the iPad ,but pity it doesn't play nice with safari. The issue is the full screen mode can't be activated 
Last edited on 25 Oct 2017 00:59 by madscientist
posted: 25 Oct 2017 01:27

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
Doesn't work on mobile safari on an apple mini iPad ( 10.2.1)  , can't get the video to go full screen so no proper video controls appear , can't activate space are to start video 
Your beginners narrated video however works perfectly 


Note it works using chrome on the iPad ,but pity it doesn't play nice with safari. The issue is the full screen mode can't be activated 
Hi David,

Thanks for that. I knew it wouldn't be plain sailing.

Why do you need it to go full screen? The player controls should appear if you hover the mouse over it at any size.

What do you want to make full-screen, the video or the full web page/browser?

Which browser do most iPad users use? Chrome or Safari? Paul said it worked ok in Safari on his iPad.

My beginners narrated video? Which one is that?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 01:51

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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As I understood it the video stays in the web browser and you
increase the size of the visual element by zooming in on the web browser.
That would be different to pressing the expand button while watching
a Youtube video or equivalent.

It works like that in Safari on my Mac Books quite happily.
I don't run Apples IOS system as my phone doesn't connect to the internet.
And don't have an iPad. So it may be totally different.

Matt M.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 01:54

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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This is what it looks like on an iPad Mini 4. Two screenshots, one just playing as it is, and the other with the larger of the two size options selected. Both are perfectly usable, in my opinion. Tapping the video resumes it after it’s paused. I think most iPad users use Safari because it just works. I did try Chrome but it seemed sluggish.105_242051_500000000.png105_242051_500000000.png105_242052_360000000.png105_242052_360000000.png

posted: 25 Oct 2017 02:23

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
This is what it looks like on an iPad Mini 4.
Hi Paul,

Thanks for the screenshots. But it's an utter mess! :(

I did wonder when you said the dreaded word "fuzzy". :)

This is what you should be seeing (Microsoft Edge):



2_242118_370000000.png2_242118_370000000.png



This is going to need more thought, I fear.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 02:32

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Well the one you posted looks like the video does in Safari on my machine.
Slightly fuzzy.

The one Paul posted looks worse.

Matt M.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 02:39

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Thanks Matt.

What happens if you zoom in-out (pinch/stretch) the web page?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 02:42

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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p.s. Can you find a zoom setting with minimum fuzziness? That means the video itself should be 1024 pixels wide (dot-for-dot zoom) and its container 1100 pixels wide.

Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 03:03

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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And this is in Opera, set dot-for-dot. That's 80% zoom because my screen is set to 120dpi (125%) in the Windows Display Settings, and Opera is seemingly not dpi-aware (unlike Edge).

Opera is the nearest I have on Win10 to Safari -- it uses the Blink rendering engine originally derived from Apple Webkit (Safari).


 
2_242155_290000000.png2_242155_290000000.png



Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 03:23

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Matt M.
 
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Martin,

Safari seems to consider the video container to be at at 1100 wide
regardless of zoom. The fuzziness stays the same just larger.
And thats on both a Thunderbolt 27 inch running at 2560 x 1440 resolution and
the Macbook Pro 15 inch running at 1680 x 1050 which is a smaller resolution
than best for retina displays.

I do remember asking someone with more tech knowledge about this
before regarding the fuzzy issues and was told it was an issue with an
incompatibility with Apple's display system and the codec's upscaling?
Not my area though.

It is viewable though, so unless the iPads have it much worst
I wouldn't consider it a massive problem re the getting the information from
the video. I've had worst from Youtube at supposedly high def for the same reason.

Genuinely Apples screens are as crisp as... usually... and the rest of the
Templot website has no problems.

The Opera screen grab PNG file looks identical to the Safari video to me which possibly
will tell you something.

Matt M.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 03:41

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Martin Wynne
 
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Thanks Matt.

I think we are seeing the limit of what's possible using MP4 for line graphics.

Of course, it wouldn't be the least bit fuzzy in Flash, and the file size would be about one tenth of the MP4 file. Facts which those rubbishing Flash (including Apple) are seemingly willing to ignore. But that's all water under the bridge now that Adobe have said that they will be abandoning Flash in the face of such hostility.

Our FBR files are equally lossless, so I'm reconsidering whether to abandon them. It does annoy me that I can view perfectly crisp videos here, exactly as originally recorded, but I can't seem to find a means to deliver them to everyone else. Who are thereby condemned to watch fuzzy screen videos, which is ok for a minute or two but liable to give severe headache after longer periods.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 04:11

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Matt M.
 
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While Flash does have some issues and Apple is a bit of a control freak,
Apple's problems with it stem from the fact that two of the most
aggressive trojan attacks on their OS were delivered using Flash.

As Flash is something they can't control it is out.

Apple has a tendency to do that with a few things.

I have watched MP4 files of high quality on my computer so it may just be a
codec compatibility issue. I have also seen some weird things graphically
in Windows 7 on the Bootcamp side of the computer my favourite being
the CAD program were every time you completed a circle it would disappear
behind the work surface never to be seen again. Only happen when running
on Windows in Bootcamp. Didn't happen on a PC.

I personally can cope with the light fuzzy that I get as the videos are very useful.
A 2 to 3 hour epic on layout a major station and yard may be different...

Matt M.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 04:57

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Martin Wynne
 
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Thanks Matt.

Martin Wynne wrote:
Also the embedded Templot FBR video player is not dpi-aware, and I don't have access to the manifest settings to make it so. It is down to individual users to make that change in the file compatibility properties, and of course hardly anyone is going to do that. Which means that on the modern hi-res monitors it is displayed using Windows virtualisation, producing results not much better or in some cases worse than MP4.
The comments about the dreaded fuzziness have had me trying again at this, despite spending several hours on it once before. But a bit of inspired Googling led me to a possible solution, and I believe I can now make the player run dpi-aware without requiring users to delve into the .exe file properties.

Here is the evidence. Perfectly crisp, 1024 pixels wide, exactly as originally recorded, and running on my hi-res monitor at 120dpi. It was fuzzy on the same monitor earlier today.


2_242345_410000000.png2_242345_410000000.png


The FBR player comes with Templot, but can't be accessed directly from a web site, so further thought needed. :?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 05:13

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Matt M.
 
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Martin your screen grab is definitely sharper than the video.
I viewed it as a separate png file in Preview, Apples native still graphics
viewer. At 100% alongside the video much better.

Matt M.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 09:51

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
Doesn't work on mobile safari on an apple mini iPad ( 10.2.1)  , can't get the video to go full screen so no proper video controls appear , can't activate space are to start video 
Your beginners narrated video however works perfectly 


Note it works using chrome on the iPad ,but pity it doesn't play nice with safari. The issue is the full screen mode can't be activated 
Hi David,

Thanks for that. I knew it wouldn't be plain sailing.

Why do you need it to go full screen? The player controls should appear if you hover the mouse over it at any size.

What do you want to make full-screen, the video or the full web page/browser?

Which browser do most iPad users use? Chrome or Safari? Paul said it worked ok in Safari on his iPad.

My beginners narrated video? Which one is that?

cheers,

Martin.
Actually I erred , it works after a fashion , by holding down your finger on the start screen then the big play button works. , what I meant was that you should be able to select a full screen option and on apple iOS when you do that you get proper video controls on the bottom and progress sliders along  the top . The video does not seem to be aware of the screen size. 
As for the narrated video , I can't find the link , but you referenced it on scaleforum in relation to a beginner query. It's the only one I can remember where you narrated the process of adding a curve turnout to an existing turnout. 

Last edited on 25 Oct 2017 09:52 by madscientist
posted: 25 Oct 2017 09:55

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madscientist
 
 

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Matt M. wrote:
While Flash does have some issues and Apple is a bit of a control freak,
Apple's problems with it stem from the fact that two of the most
aggressive trojan attacks on their OS were delivered using Flash.

As Flash is something they can't control it is out.

Apple has a tendency to do that with a few things.

I have watched MP4 files of high quality on my computer so it may just be a
codec compatibility issue. I have also seen some weird things graphically
in Windows 7 on the Bootcamp side of the computer my favourite being
the CAD program were every time you completed a circle it would disappear
behind the work surface never to be seen again. Only happen when running
on Windows in Bootcamp. Didn't happen on a PC.

I personally can cope with the light fuzzy that I get as the videos are very useful.
A 2 to 3 hour epic on layout a major station and yard may be different...

Matt M.
Apples primarty issue with flash , is it's a massive security hole , leaking data back to adobe 





posted: 25 Oct 2017 09:59

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madscientist
 
 

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Martyn , I don't understand why this is all so complex , you can use screen recording software like FBR to create MP4 files , everything will handle MP4 these days

posted: 25 Oct 2017 10:00

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Matt M.
 
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Yeah. That is the control issue. It isn't the only program that does that though.
Most like Facebook are voluntary.

Matt M.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 10:18

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madscientist
 
 

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I still don't quite understand your issues with MP4. Internally flv, flash also in effect uses H264 , H264 can deliver very high resolutions with better bitrates then flash a on2 codec etc 
Last edited on 25 Oct 2017 10:18 by madscientist
posted: 25 Oct 2017 10:29

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Martin Wynne
 
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madscientist wrote:
Martyn , I don't understand why this is all so complex , you can use screen recording software like FBR to create MP4 files , everything will handle MP4 these days
Hi Dave,

Yes I know it will, and that's what I'm doing.

But it's FUZZY, and it drives me mad when I know it needn't be.

Would you use lossy JPG for a CAD drawing, instead of lossless PNG? Of course not. So why are we being forced to do that with videos? If there are two different formats for still images, why not for video? Even decades-old animated GIFs have better sharpness for screen graphics than MP4 files.

And another thing. File sizes for that video:

     FBR fully interactive: 1156 KB.

     SWF (Flash) fully interactive: 1218 KB

     MP4 same video, without interactive functions: 4841 KB.

4 times or more on the file size for worse quality and less functionality.

Ok, Flash is dying, and is barred from Apple devices, so it would be daft to hang on to it.

But that doesn't mean we have to accept the limitations of MP4 if we can find a way round. Just because Apple says so.

No-one disputes that MP4 is very clever at encoding real-world photographic images, where every pixel is a different shade. The same as JPG for still photographs.

But that's not what we are trying to record for screen graphics. It's infuriating that we are being forced to use the wrong tool to record that.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 10:38

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madscientist
 
 

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Ok found it

http://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=BDXvSdUuD-vmjFK4us4vxA2

That plays perfectly , as you can select the " opposing arrows " full screen option once the video starts. Then you get proper video controls on the iPad

Whereas for some reason , your test video here , doesn't present a full screen option and you never get the correct set of video controls

posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:02

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Martin Wynne
 
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madscientist wrote:
Ok found it

http://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=BDXvSdUuD-vmjFK4us4vxA2

Hi Dave,

But that's the full web page from the FlashBackConnect host. This is the present one in the same format: 

 http://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=UJw2efyiA7SvCOidDlmRrQ2

That's no help in a tutorial where you want to top and tail it with text and possibly have several videos on the same page. For that I'm embedding it in an iframe on the page. And it's working fine here in Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Edge, even IE11.

It seems to be only when Apple gets involved that it all goes wrong. Even the Android browser displays the video as intended, but loses the interactive pauses.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:09

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madscientist
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
Ok found it

http://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=BDXvSdUuD-vmjFK4us4vxA2

Hi Dave,

But that's the full web page from the FlashBackConnect host. This is the present one in the same format: 

 http://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=UJw2efyiA7SvCOidDlmRrQ2

That's no help in a tutorial where you want to top and tail it with text and possibly have several videos on the same page. For that I'm embedding it in an iframe on the page. And it's working fine here in Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Edge, even IE11. It seems to be only when Apple gets involved that it all goes wrong.

regards,

Martin.
Hi , Martin 
That link exhibits the same peculiarity. You can't select any form of full screen mode and get the appropriate video player controls. 

It does work fine though , by tapping the screen to release the pause on my iPad even if I can't select a full screen mode 

The lines are  fuzzy , but is this H264 full resolution encoding , it seems low res to me 

In relation to the companion , all you want can be done in HTML 5 , including multiple videos on a page etc. 


posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:15

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madscientist
 
 

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By the way HTML 5 has deprecated many attributes of the iframe tag. It can create issues with modern HTML 5 compliant browsers , this is often the source of issues with safari, which I find to very compliant , ( with the ex exception of various hardware query APIs, which apple will not support )

posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:19

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madscientist
 
 

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I'll create , later today, a quick MP4 on my mac of a templot session to see if I duplicate the fuzzy line issues , I don't remember this being an issue when I did some cad videos recently
This doesn't deal  with the interactive element of course , the only way I know how to do that in MP4 is to pause and release the movie using JavaScript in a web browser 
Last edited on 25 Oct 2017 11:30 by madscientist
posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:32

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Martin Wynne
 
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madscientist wrote:
By the way HTML 5 has deprecated many attributes of the iframe tag. It can create issues with modern HTML 5 compliant browsers , this is often the source of issues with safari, which I find to very compliant , ( with the ex exception of various hardware query APIs, which apple will not support )
Thanks, see:

 http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_iframe.asp

The only ones of those deprecated which I was using was scrolling and frameborder. I have now removed them from the page, so you might like to try again (CTRL+F5 to update):

 http://templot.com/companion/4_where_do_i_start.html

Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:48

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madscientist
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
By the way HTML 5 has deprecated many attributes of the iframe tag. It can create issues with modern HTML 5 compliant browsers , this is often the source of issues with safari, which I find to very compliant , ( with the ex exception of various hardware query APIs, which apple will not support )
Thanks, see:

 http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_iframe.asp

The only ones of those deprecated which I was using was scrolling and frameborder. I have now removed them from the page, so you might like to try again (CTRL+F5 to update):

 http://templot.com/companion/4_where_do_i_start.html

Martin.
Works fine , pauses and then continues on screen tap, I'm puzzled as to why there is no full screen option , I think on apple mobile browsers full screen discards any interactive elements so maybe that's why it's not available 
The main thing is it works. 


posted: 25 Oct 2017 11:53

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madscientist
 
 

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3004_250655_070000000.png3004_250655_070000000.png a screen shot of that last video at a pause point , on a iPad mini retina 2048 x1536
Note the screen shot is much better on the iPad then displayed on this web page 
Last edited on 25 Oct 2017 11:57 by madscientist
posted: 25 Oct 2017 12:14

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Martin Wynne
 
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madscientist wrote:
a screen shot of that last video at a pause point , on a iPad mini retina 2048 x1536
Note the screen shot is much better on the iPad then displayed on this web page
Thanks Dave.

That's because it has been resized to fit. Try adding it as an attachment instead.

Here is a crop from your original upload to the image gallery:

2_250705_180000000.png2_250705_180000000.png

If that is a true representation of what you are seeing, I honestly don't know how you can watch it for long. I couldn't without getting a headache. Why not reduce it to the intended 1024 pixels width? It would be much nicer to look at.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 12:16

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madscientist
 
 

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As an aside can you configure your MP4 encoder for lossless ( QP =0) operation. ffmpeg etc can do this

posted: 25 Oct 2017 12:20

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I find it absolutely fine on the mini iPad zoom to screen extent , the iPad mini is too small to watch it smaller  Your overlay text is sharp ,templot menus are sharp  and the track is slightly fuzzy , but nothing that detracts from the excercise  Are your sure your encoding at the highest bitrate and QP setting your MP4 encoder is capable of. In reality file size is not as a concern as it once  was , well I have 100 meg fibre ! 
I have a look at this on my 27 " iMac which is a similar resolution but far bigger screen 

Ps i do agree out of the box H264 has issues as you point out, its focused on bit rate ecomony 
Attachment: attach_2542_3069_IMG_0107.PNG     174
Last edited on 25 Oct 2017 12:27 by madscientist
posted: 25 Oct 2017 13:02

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Matt M.
 
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Dave,

I would be interested to hear your comparison between the iPad and the 27" Mac.
The screen shots so far have looked worse on the iPad than on either of my displays.

Out of interest I went into Bootcamp and played the video on Firefox.
The resolution issue seemed a little worse but that could be because I haven't
needed to fine tweak either display for anything I use Windows for.

Both display are at what Windows 7 considers their optimal resolution
but the video is unreadable on 15" at 100% and too large at 200% and
there doesn't appear to be any choice in-between. The 27" looks a little rougher
as I have already mentioned but otherwise readable.

In my case the quality of the video is fine for what it is supposed to do.

Martin don't lose to much sleep over it. I don't think it is worth
pulling your hair out in frustration.

The program is a fantastic. A great help to those of us that like accurate track.
And the back up has always been fantastic.
And the forum has been a joy. I have learnt so much following some of the
discussions. Even when they go off topic.
I'll probably end up joining MERG before the end of the year.

By the way I haven't been into Bootcamp since the last Templot update.
AVG sent me a message that Templot exe was fine and happily put on their
okay programs list. Just thought you would like to know.

Mind you I couldn't work out how to shut down their large notification message.
That was irritating...


Matt M.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 13:19

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Martin Wynne
 
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madscientist wrote:
As an aside can you configure your MP4 encoder for lossless ( QP =0) operation. ffmpeg etc can do this
Hi Dave,

I'm using FlashBack Pro 5 to record FBR files. According to the program credits it is using libavcodec from ffmpeg.

I can export to MP4 and set it for 100% image quality, although it doesn't specifically mention lossless. The codec is: "openh264 provided by Cisco Systems Inc."

But the file is of no use because it does not contain the interactive pauses, clickable buttons, etc.

File attached below to see what I mean.

To get the interactive functions I must upload the FBR file to FlashBackConnect. They then do the conversion to MP4 and add the interactive functions in their web player. I have no control over that conversion -- or at least not currently. FlashBackConnect is still in beta so further options may yet get added.

Here's my MP4 file, set to 100% quality. Set your player to 1024 pixels wide for best results.

cheers,

Martin.
Attachment: attach_2543_3069_Templot_Explained__first_off___2.mp4     165

posted: 25 Oct 2017 13:27

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Matt M.
 
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Just played it on VLC and looks just the same as in Safari.

The quickly flashing text boxes are fun to try and stop for...


Matt M.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 13:50

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Matt M.
 
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I take that back. It is better on the Thunderbolt 27" than on the Retina 15".
As Dave mentioned the track is a little fuzzy but all the rest is really good.

I went back and let the Safari imbedded version play without trying to
change the size and is is not bad either.
But when I made it larger it developed that fuzzy look and then staid that way
even when I reduced the size.

Before it was like that all the time so something is working.

Matt M.

posted: 25 Oct 2017 20:05

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Phil O
 
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Matt M. wrote:
Just played it on VLC and looks just the same as in Safari.

The quickly flashing text boxes are fun to try and stop for...


Matt M.

I am getting that on my Android tablet, the earlier version worked fine, just a dab of the screen to continue.

Phil



posted: 26 Oct 2017 16:39

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madscientist
 
 

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I can confirm the video looks fine on my 27" mac , looks better then on the mini iPad. I attach a screenshot * for what its worth  Obviously the video is a fixed resolution ( 1200 horizontal ) as I cant expand it beyond that Basically Martin , stop obsessing about it and its fine :D dave
Attachment: attach_2545_3069_Screenshot_2017-10-26_16.35.26.png     168
Last edited on 26 Oct 2017 16:41 by madscientist
posted: 26 Oct 2017 16:52

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Martin , I downloaded that MP4 you added in your reply to me 
Heres the data panel on it ( attached ) 

Note the resolution is fairly limited , at 1240 x 640, obviously on high res screens like the iPad, this is not actually enough 

Note also the data rate is only just on the acceptable side of OK, 720p video for example is usually encoded at 2-3 mb/s and Netflix encodes at 5mb/s 

IN essence these are " medium " res movies and that why they look a little off on apples ( which tend to be very sharp and precise high res displays ) 






Attachment: attach_2546_3069_Screenshot_2017-10-26_16.47.30.png     149

posted: 26 Oct 2017 16:55

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heres a partial screen capture of the Mp4 zoom in Quick time to about 2000pixels across 
you can clearly see the image is sharp but there simply isnt enough resolution for this type of display ( as you can see the horizontal and vertical lines are well defined ) 
The text is most likely anti-aliased so looks better then it is  , which of course you could consider for the track display as well !!!!!


Attachment: attach_2547_3069_Screenshot_2017-10-26_16.52.30.png     151
Last edited on 26 Oct 2017 16:57 by madscientist
posted: 26 Oct 2017 18:10

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Heres a 10 second MP4 video captured from my Mac running templot in a window under Parallels 
The initial capture was run at full lossless MOV and converted in a compressed MP4, the initial MOV file is over 30 Mb in size !.  

The resulting  Mp4 is at 2249 x 1276 
FPS: 10 
Data rate 3.79 MB/s
file size 4.7 Mb 

Note the complete lack of fuzzy bits compared to your video
obviously its a trade off between file size and resolution/compression 

Attachment: attach_2548_3069_MacX_Screen_Recorder_2017-10-26_at_p.m._05.30.07_(3).mp4     135
Last edited on 26 Oct 2017 18:16 by madscientist
posted: 26 Oct 2017 18:27

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for that info, but just to repeat, that isn't the MP4 file which anyone is or will be seeing.

You asked me about the MP4 creation capability in FlashBack so I exported one for you as an example. It's of no practical use at all because it doesn't have the interactive pauses.

The actual MP4 in use is the one being streamed on this page:

 http://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=UJw2efyiA7SvCOidDlmRrQ2

It's embedded in an iframe on the Templot Companion page.

I have no control over the creation of that MP4 or its settings. I could change the frame rate in the original FBR recording (I use 20fps), but I have to bear in mind that not all users have high-spec systems for fast playback.

That's also the reason for recording it at 1024 pixels wide. I could make videos 2560 pixels wide, but then they wouldn't fit dot-for-dot on many users screens.

Dot-for-dot is important because the content is line graphics. For which MP4 is totally unsuitable, but appears to be the only web distribution mechanism now available. Apart from animated GIFs.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 26 Oct 2017 18:54

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Martin Wynne
 
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madscientist wrote:
Note the complete lack of fuzzy bits compared to your video
??? It's extremely fuzzy here, with streaks across it.

I set it to 2249 x 1276 on my screen, as you said, and this is a bit of it:

2_261343_510000000.png2_261343_510000000.png

Not everyone will be able to view it at that size, but when reduced the text is too small to read easily, and very fuzzy.

And its nearly 5MB for just a few seconds!

We seem to be at cross purposes somewhere. :?

Now that I have got the Templot Video Player running dpi-aware, I'm working on a mechanism to make it easy to swap to it from the Companion page.

This is what that looks like, and it's a fraction of the file size (set your browser dot-for-dot to match the ruler):

2_242345_410000000.png2_242345_410000000.png

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 26 Oct 2017 19:10

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I understand the debate re MP4 and how you use it . What I was trying to show you is that the issue isnt Mp4 or Apple, the issue is the settings for the encoding

as to your comment are streaks and etc , I dont understand how you are viewing this file, I have viewed in VLC under windows , VLC under mac, Quicktime and iMovie , all show it perfect at the converted resolution . perhaps you have a graphics card issue .

As I said , this isnt an Apple issue , its a Mp4 encoding setting issue. the MP4 can be constructed to remove the aliasing and fuzzy issues at the cost of larger file sizes
Again the issue is the resolution and colour depth of modern displays , the original lossless MOV for that 10 seconds  is over 30 MB !
Last edited on 26 Oct 2017 19:13 by madscientist
posted: 26 Oct 2017 19:23

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This is what that looks like, and it's a fraction of the file size (set your browser dot-for-dot to match the ruler):

by default thats how it opens in safari , i.e. pixel for pixel 

but at higher resolutions like the iPad retina , or when zoomed on a big display, the underlying lack of resolution will cause some issues, aka fuzzy bits and issues with non vertical lines.

but as I and others have said , the issue isnt worth worrying about , the content itself is more valuable then a bit of fuzz:D

cheers 

dave 
Last edited on 26 Oct 2017 19:28 by madscientist
posted: 26 Oct 2017 19:42

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
as to your comment are streaks and etc , I dont understand how you are viewing this file
Hi Dave,

Viewing in Windows10 on a Microsoft Surface Pro.

I have 3 apps for viewing it.

The default Windows "Films & TV" app which I used. The others are the "Photos" app, and old-style "Windows Media Player". The result is the same in all of them.

the MP4 can be constructed to remove the aliasing and fuzzy issues at the cost of larger file sizes
Larger file sizes! It is already many times larger than the lossless FBR format. The MPEG compression may be wonderful for real world photography, but it's totally unsuitable for lossless line graphics, compared to the alternatives (which HTML5 no longer supports).

I don't feel this is going anywhere useful?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 27 Oct 2017 13:42

from:

madscientist
 
 

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The default Windows "Films & TV" app which I used. The others are the "Photos" app, and old-style "Windows Media Player". The result is the same in all of them.
cant comment ,  dont have win10 , nasty rubbish !. :D WMP cant play MP4 unless you add a codec and most of them are rubbish . Video plays perfectly on Win7 on two machines. PS I suggest you download VLC , which has a good MPEG decoder 
Larger file sizes! It is already many times larger than the lossless FBR format. The MPEG compression may be wonderful for real world photography, but it's totally unsuitable for lossless line graphics, compared to the alternatives (which HTML5 no longer supports).
jeepers , I know, but its the way of the world !!:thumb: 
I don't feel this is going anywhere useful?
It was only a point to demonstrate that with proper settings MP4 can  encode line graphics and Apple screens are the best on the planet , nothing more :cool:
Last edited on 27 Oct 2017 13:47 by madscientist


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