click here for a list of all existing Templot documentation
about Templot Club cookie information pre-print options:    

click image to open Templot Club in a new tab
Templot club top logo
looking for Templot? - (free)



 you are not logged in  - Login | Join


receive all messages by email: info


Recent Topics
Front Page  Search  Image Gallery  Gallery Upload  My Account  Members  Help  
make a donation  
please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors Templot Companion - User Guide
            messages archive on Yahoo
page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Baffled beginners > Creating 1990s Flat-Bottomed rail with concrete sleepers
Templot web site

                                       Creating 1990s Flat-Bottomed rail with concrete sleepers
     
 Start new topic   Reply blank   Printer friendly 
  Rate this topic  
AuthorMessage
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
1st message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 01:55
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi All,Thanks to Martyn for adding me to the forum. I’m just getting back into model railways after a fair few years away, just involved with the big railway instead!

I’m going to be modelling EM gauge with hand-built track and turnouts using EMGS Code 83 flat-bottomed rail. My plan is to use Colin Craig’s components (such as the Pan11 baseplate) on the scenic section to replicate a small part of the electrified WCML in the 1990s. While emailing Colin he mentioned that a things such as interlaced sleepers are a big no-no for concrete sleeped track, which brings me to my question. Hidden fiddle yard track will be copperclad so it doesn’t really matter what standard i use for that I guess!

How can I get Templot to model the layout and produce the templates based around Code 83 flat bottomed rail on concrete sleepers? What do I need to changed, and indeed, is it actually possible? Are there any other differences to take into account that people can advise me about?

Any help, pointers and general advice would be welcomed! I’ve used Templot and learnt how to do a couple of small layout designs but this one is more elaborate!

Richie

__________
message ref: 22191

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
2nd message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 07:53
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Richie

Welcome to Templot Club.

Yes it's possible to do the things you require in Templot.

When you open up Templot you will get a non standard gauge turnout to alter this to EM go to the GAUGE menu and select 18.2 EM, all your templates will now be in EM gauge. To alter the rail from Bullhead to Flat Bottom, go to the REAL, RAILS and select HEAD & FOOT and your templates will be in flat bottom.

When I construct fiddle yard track I only put a sleeper in at about inch spacings and tend to miss every other one out on turnouts except under the nose where I build as per template.

HTH

Phil.
__________
message ref: 22193

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
3rd message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 11:01
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Richie.
Further to Phil's reply, you may also need to go to REAL, RAILS, FLARED ENDS MACHINED if your turnout checks have tapered ends rather than being bent and then go TEMPLATE, SWITCH SETTINGS and choose an appropriate Flat Bottomed switch type.
Regards
Tony.

__________
message ref: 22195

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
4th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 11:07
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi Richie,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

To set the sleeper size go to real > timbering > timbering data... menu item.

Templot expects full-size prototype data in inches. If your prototype data is metric, you can enter it in mm by prefixing it with the letter m.

For example, if the concrete sleepers are 250mm wide, you can enter that as m250.

To set the sleeper spacing, go to real > plain track options > rail lengths and sleeper spacings menu item.
    
If CWR (long-welded rail) is wanted click the custom settings... button to create a custom setting. Set a dummy "rail length" which is equal to the sleeper spacing, and have a single sleeper spaced at half that distance from the dummy "joint". Then click the real > plain track options > rail-joint marks > none menu option.

regards,

Martin.


__________
message ref: 22196

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
5th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 12:16
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
RK
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Phil O wrote: Hi Richie

Welcome to Templot Club.

Yes it's possible to do the things you require in Templot.

When you open up Templot you will get a non standard gauge turnout to alter this to EM go to the GAUGE menu and select 18.2 EM, all your templates will now be in EM gauge. To alter the rail from Bullhead to Flat Bottom, go to the REAL, RAILS and select HEAD & FOOT and your templates will be in flat bottom.

When I construct fiddle yard track I only put a sleeper in at about inch spacings and tend to miss every other one out on turnouts except under the nose where I build as per template.

HTH

Phil.
Phil,Many thanks that’s great. I thought it was going to be a difficult thing to do with loads of bits to change!!

Cheers
Richie


__________
message ref: 22197

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
6th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 12:19
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
RK
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Tony W wrote: Hi Richie.
Further to Phil's reply, you may also need to go to REAL, RAILS, FLARED ENDS MACHINED if your turnout checks have tapered ends rather than being bent and then go TEMPLATE, SWITCH SETTINGS and choose an appropriate Flat Bottomed switch type.
Regards
Tony.
Tony,Thanks for that. I’m nowhere near knowledgable on these things - think more ill-informed idiot!!

How/where would turnouts have tapered ends? Not something I’ve heard off before, so any direction/advice would be welcomed. Given in modelling the early 1990: WCML, can you suggest what the most appropriate setting would be?

Richie

__________
message ref: 22198

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
7th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 12:26
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
RK
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Richie,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

To set the sleeper size go to real > timbering > timbering data... menu item.

Templot expects full-size prototype data in inches. If your prototype data is metric, you can enter it in mm by prefixing it with the letter m.

For example, if the concrete sleepers are 250mm wide, you can enter that as m250.

To set the sleeper spacing, go to real > plain track options > rail lengths and sleeper spacings menu item.
    
If CWR (long-welded rail) is wanted click the custom settings... button to create a custom setting. Set a dummy "rail length" which is equal to the sleeper spacing, and have a single sleeper spaced at half that distance from the dummy "joint". Then click the real > plain track options > rail-joint marks > none menu option.

regards,

Martin.


Hi Martin,
Wow! So many options in your software! Very impressed! I’m off to read Colin Craig’s articles on concrete sleepers trackwork, and to research Sleeper widths!

Am I right in thinking that once the plan is complete and I’m doing the shoving bit, it works the same for Concrete sleepered track? I’m a bit of a way off that yet, but thought I’d ask while I remember!

Also, could anyone confirm - I’ve seen Layouts of a four track main line, where each of the lines are laid parallel at equal spacing. Looking at the real thing and thinking about signals, bridges etc, that doesn’t seem right. Was there a standard spacing (appreciating that all locations can be as individual as the next) for double and quadruple track? I’m sure I’ve seen a diagram somewhere in the past that had all these things marked on together with cess details and that, but cannot find it now.

I’ve been thinking about this layout for a while now and I’m of the opinion that we put so much time and effort into detailing locos and scenery, that I really should but the same effort into the trackwork! Hence all the questions.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Richie

__________
message ref: 22199

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
8th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 12:41
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
RK wrote:Looking at the real thing and thinking about signals, bridges etc, that doesn’t seem right. Was there a standard spacing (appreciating that all locations can be as individual as the next) for double and quadruple track? I’m sure I’ve seen a diagram somewhere in the past that had all these things marked on together with cess details and that, but cannot find it now.Hi Richie,

In UK practice you can't have multiple running lines at 6ft way. Sidings, loops and slow lines must be spaced at 10ft way (or 9ft way in special cases) from a pair of main lines which have 6ft way. This is for the safety of staff on the ground, and clearance for signal posts, etc.

This rule produces the classic alternating wide and narrow spacings of track in pairs, as seen for example on the cover of David Smith's GWR track book:



In addition to that, track spacing has to be increased on sharp curves to allow running clearance for vehicle overhang.

See the tools > dummy vehicle menu item for the tools in Templot to check and adjust clearances.

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 22200

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
9th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 12:53
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Richie
Screen shot with check rail ends bent.


Screen shot with check rail ends machined.

The later would be more appropriate to your era.

Regarding the track spacings of quadruple tracks, there are two main ways of doing this. The WCML was generally arranged as Up Down fast, Up Down slow and would be spaced at 11'2" 15' 2" 11' 2" centres. The alternate way as exemplified by the ECML used Up slow Up fast Down fast Down slow spaced at 15'2" 11'2" 15'2" centres.
These can be set under GEOMETRY, ADJACENT TRACK CENTRES.
Regards
Tony.


__________
message ref: 22201

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
10th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 16:14
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote: RK wrote:Looking at the real thing and thinking about signals, bridges etc, that doesn’t seem right. Was there a standard spacing (appreciating that all locations can be as individual as the next) for double and quadruple track? I’m sure I’ve seen a diagram somewhere in the past that had all these things marked on together with cess details and that, but cannot find it now.Hi Richie,

In UK practice you can't have multiple running lines at 6ft way. Sidings, loops and slow lines must be spaced at 10ft way (or 9ft way in special cases) from a pair of main lines which have 6ft way. This is for the safety of staff on the ground, and clearance for signal posts, etc.

This rule produces the classic alternating wide and narrow spacings of track in pairs, as seen for example on the cover of David Smith's GWR track book:

In addition to that, track spacing has to be increased on sharp curves to allow running clearance for vehicle overhang.

See the tools > dummy vehicle menu item for the tools in Templot to check and adjust clearances.

regards,

Martin.

Martin,
Many thanks - that makes a lot of sence i'll work on those principals.  I'd found the 'dummy vehicle' instructions on the forum previously, so have made use of those.  Are there any normal or standard figures i should be working to for curves - in terms of clearances?  I seem to recall reading something previously about some form of approach to a curve as well, which i also need to go find and read up on.

Thanks again for all your help

Richie

__________
message ref: 22202

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
11th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 16:19
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Tony W wrote: Hi Richie
Screen shot with check rail ends bent.


Screen shot with check rail ends machined.

The later would be more appropriate to your era.

Regarding the track spacings of quadruple tracks, there are two main ways of doing this. The WCML was generally arranged as Up Down fast, Up Down slow and would be spaced at 11'2" 15' 2" 11' 2" centres. The alternate way as exemplified by the ECML used Up slow Up fast Down fast Down slow spaced at 15'2" 11'2" 15'2" centres.
These can be set under GEOMETRY, ADJACENT TRACK CENTRES.
Regards
Tony.

Hi Tony,You know the one thing that has amazed me with this hobby, since getting back into it on both rmWeb and this morning on here, is the kindness of others to help and willing share information.  Really is great to see, so thank you.

Also thanks for taking the time to do the two screen shots, I'd misunderstood you totally to start with, but seeing those and looking at the differences, the mist has cleared and I can totally see what you are talking about now!  Thank, i'll work with the machined check rails as you suggest.  Thanks for the spacing comment too.  Just to make sure i've understood it right.  The distance between the centers of the Down Slow, Up Slow would be 11' 2", then Up Slow to Down Fast spacing would be 15' 2", then Down Fast to Up Fast would be 11' 2"?

I recall 'Up' being to London, so i think the WCML was Down/Up Slow, Down/Up Fast around the Stafford area, which is what I am modelling.  Does the 11'2" measure apply through platforms as well?  I appreciate adjacent roads will be further apart because of the platform width.

Cheers
Richie

__________
message ref: 22203

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
12th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 17:01
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides
I have just had a look at Google Maps and got a satellite view screen shot of a section of WCML, just South of Stafford



This shows 11' 2" 15'2" 11'2" centres, I'm not that aux faix with the WCML so I don't know what the pairings are.

Phil

__________
message ref: 22204

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
13th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 17:12
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Phil O wrote: I have just had a look at Google Maps and got a satellite view screen shot of a section of WCML, just South of Stafford



This shows 11' 2" 15'2" 11'2" centres, I'm not that aux faix with the WCML so I don't know what the pairings are.

Phil
Ah! Cheers Phil - now why didnt I engage brain and think of doing just that!!! .... or in the word of that illustrious leader of men - "ah! Wonder who'd be the first to think of that one :)"
Cheers
Richie

__________
message ref: 22205

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
14th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 17:49
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Richie.
You have understood the track spacings correctly.
11'2" centres gives the 6' way that Martin states and is the standard minimum, usually maintained between platform tracks although situations vary according to operational needs.
Below is a table of model track centre spacings that I posted some years ago before Martin created the dummy vehicle facility. You may find it useful.


Regards
Tony.

__________
message ref: 22206

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
15th message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2017 21:29
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks Tony. I take it from there that in EM, i'd use the 4mm table, take the larger of the two radii and use a centre line between them of x - for example where the larger of the two radii is 982, the centre line between the two tracks would be 54?

Richie
__________
message ref: 22207

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
16th message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2017 11:56
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Richie Kynaston wrote: Thanks Tony. I take it from there that in EM, i'd use the 4mm table, take the larger of the two radii and use a centre line between them of x - for example where the larger of the two radii is 982, the centre line between the two tracks would be 54?

Richie
Hi Richie.
Not quite.
The 4mm table obviously as the body width of the stock is the same regardless of the track gauge.
The way the table works may not be completely obvious at first sight, however the straight track centre spacing can be applied down to a radius of 8836mm, 46mm centres down to 4419mm radius and so on. So the 54mm centres spacing would apply to radii down to 886mm. This is what the note at the bottom of the table tries to explain. I suppose technically the radius of a centre line between the two tracks should be used for the calculation. I generally tend to use the smaller radius of the two, but I don't think it would be that critical which track was used as the baseline.
Remember to add 16mm (4ft) to the spacing figures to maintain the 15'2" centres.
The spreadsheet that works these figures out was originally devised for my own use, but interest from other people persuaded me that it was worth making the results generally available.

Regards
Tony.



__________
message ref: 22208

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
17th message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2017 13:11
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi Richie,

Don't forget that you can use the dummy vehicle tools to set a clearance spacing on double track without even knowing the numbers.

tools > dummy vehicle menu item.

Here I have made you a bit of scruff video showing how to do that. The track is EM, inner radius is 900mm:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=5TKjRjhcaeHNM176Xf2xUg2

I'm sorry it is scruffy and unedited. I'm currently working on the docs for these functions, but it is a full day's work to create a smooth-running video with interactive notes and a page in the Templot Companion.

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 22211

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
18th message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2017 14:24
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Tony/Martin,
Both of you many thanks! Martin, don't worry about that, appreciate the rough video for help!

Richie
__________
message ref: 22212

 
This is topic ID = 3093     Page created at 23:34 (local time)  
You can type a quick reply to this topic here.

Click in the box to begin.


But to reply to an individual message, or to include images, attachments and formatted text, use the reply buttons on each message above.

To start a new topic in this forum, click the Start new topic button below.
To start a new topic in a different forum, click the Forum Jump drop-down list below.

             Start new topic 

 click to jump to a different forum:     Back to top of page

Templot Club > Forums > Baffled beginners > Creating 1990s Flat-Bottomed rail with concrete sleepers
about Templot Club

list recently active topics Templot Companion - User Guide - A-Z Index Old Templot Companion Please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors.
indexing link for search engines only

back to top of page


Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so.

The small print: All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted. The owner of this web site is not responsible for any content displayed here other than his own contributions. The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason.
Problems with this web site? Contact webmaster@templot.com.   This web site uses cookies: click for information.  
© 2017  

Powered by UltraBB - © 2009 Data 1 Systems