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                                       Moretonhampstead - BR (W) 1948 - 1958
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2017 11:30
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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Having had a lifelong interest in British Railways it has been an ambition of mine to build a BR (W) Branch line Terminus in 4 mm (EM Gauge).  Having looked at the prototypes of Ashburton, Marlow, Moretonhampstead, Wallingford and Watlington for inspiration I decided on Moretonhampstead.
 
About 5 years ago I set about constructing an Outbuilding to house the Layout and the ever-increasing Railway related items I have collected over the years. Two years ago, I was made redundant and decided that I would take early retirement and so I find I have a little more time to re-kindle my Model Railway Interests.
 
I first acquired Templot over 14 years ago and have only really dabbled with it on sporadic occasions. I have attached a copy of my Templot Box File and Background Shapes of where I got to around 4 years ago. I am basically at the stage of having to re-learn Templot almost from the beginning although I have followed the progress on the Templot Forum.
 
The recent discussion on importing and using Maps as Background Shapes has also spurred me along. I did import a Map of Moretonhampstead that I copied from one of the many books that I have acquired. It compares reasonably well with the 25” Maps of the NLS. I’m not too sure if I have used the correct style of Turnout. The 1 in 8.25 RAM / CLM seems an odd size E.g:-
 
REA semi-curved  C-size left-hand switch (unjoggled) 1 in 8.25 RAM ( 1 in 8.28 CLM ) regular V-crossing
equalized-incremental timbering.
 
Anyway that’s where I am at.

Regards

David

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Attachment: moretonhampstead_2017_10_06_1108_32.box (Downloaded 14 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2017 11:31
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David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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This the original Background Shape I was using.
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Attachment: start.bgs (Downloaded 7 times)
 
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3rd message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2017 14:58
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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David Higgs wrote: This the original Background Shape I was using.Hi David,

Thanks for that, but you need to upload also the start.sk81 image file.

All anyone can see at present is a blank rectangle.

regards,

Martin.

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4th message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2017 15:33
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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David Higgs wrote:It compares reasonably well with the 25” Maps of the NLS. I’m not too sure if I have used the correct style of Turnout. The 1 in 8.25 RAM / CLM seems an odd size E.g:-
 
REA semi-curved  C-size left-hand switch (unjoggled) 1 in 8.25 RAM ( 1 in 8.28 CLM ) regular V-crossing equalized-incremental timbering.
Hi David,

It's very unlikely to be that size. Especially the REA switch on a GWR branch line, although you never say never.

In order to determine exact turnout sizes from an OS map, several settings need to be made:

1. You must use an exact scale track gauge, such as P4, S7, etc.

EM turnouts are shorter than the same size in P4.

2. You need to use CLM crossing angles. Templot uses RAM angles by default.

3. For many/most sizes of turnout, you need to change to generic V-crossings.

4. On the GWR the 6ft way is 1/2" wider* than other companies, so for extreme accuracy you need to set 134.5" instead of 134" double-track spacing. It makes a small difference to the length of crossovers.

*this is a legacy from the earlier use of 3" wide rail.

Looking at the 1936 map of Moretonhampstead, it is clear that the platform release crossover has been changed from the earlier maps. It is longer, and moved under the train shed, presumably to make a longer loco release.

The question is, when did that renewal take place? The GWR introduced their range of flexible switches (including C) in the early 1930s. So it's feasible that by 1936 one of those had been installed brand new at the terminus of the Moretonhampstead branch.

Feasible, but not I think very likely, unless you have direct evidence? The renewal may have taken place earlier, and even if not, it's far more likely that a second-hand old-type switch would have been used, possibly resulting from the use of a new C switch on the main lines somewhere else.

Fortunately the 1936 map shows the switch toe marks at both end of the crossover, so by trial and error we can arrive at a turnout size which fits (assuming both turnouts are the same size -- it would be very unusual if not in a straight crossover).

And the result seems to be a GWR 18ft straight switch and 1:10 CLM crossing (which is a bog-standard GWR size):



That's in P4. For EM it will be a bit shorter, but you could use 1:10 RAM instead of CLM (which will lengthen it a fraction), and centralize it between the crossover toe marks on the map.

regards,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2017 15:51
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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: David Higgs wrote: This the original Background Shape I was using.Hi David,

Thanks for that, but you need to upload also the start.sk81 image file.

All anyone can see at present is a blank rectangle.

regards,

Martin.
I don't seem to be having any luck in uploading the start.sk81 image file.
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6th message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2017 16:00
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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David Higgs wrote:I don't seem to be having any luck in uploading the start.sk81 image file.Hi David,

How big is it? Attachments are limited to 10MB max.

If no joy, send it to me in an email, and I will upload it for you.

You can find my email address by clicking on my name on the left > View Profile.

regards,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2017 10:25
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: David Higgs wrote:It compares reasonably well with the 25” Maps of the NLS. I’m not too sure if I have used the correct style of Turnout. The 1 in 8.25 RAM / CLM seems an odd size E.g:-
 
REA semi-curved  C-size left-hand switch (unjoggled) 1 in 8.25 RAM ( 1 in 8.28 CLM ) regular V-crossing equalized-incremental timbering.
Hi David,

It's very unlikely to be that size. Especially the REA switch on a GWR branch line, although you never say never.

In order to determine exact turnout sizes from an OS map, several settings need to be made:

1. You must use an exact scale track gauge, such as P4, S7, etc.

EM turnouts are shorter than the same size in P4.

2. You need to use CLM crossing angles. Templot uses RAM angles by default.

3. For many/most sizes of turnout, you need to change to generic V-crossings.

4. On the GWR the 6ft way is 1/2" wider* than other companies, so for extreme accuracy you need to set 134.5" instead of 134" double-track spacing. It makes a small difference to the length of crossovers.

*this is a legacy from the earlier use of 3" wide rail.

Looking at the 1936 map of Moretonhampstead, it is clear that the platform release crossover has been changed from the earlier maps. It is longer, and moved under the train shed, presumably to make a longer loco release.

The question is, when did that renewal take place? The GWR introduced their range of flexible switches (including C) in the early 1930s. So it's feasible that by 1936 one of those had been installed brand new at the terminus of the Moretonhampstead branch.

Feasible, but not I think very likely, unless you have direct evidence? The renewal may have taken place earlier, and even if not, it's far more likely that a second-hand old-type switch would have been used, possibly resulting from the use of a new C switch on the main lines somewhere else.

Fortunately the 1936 map shows the switch toe marks at both end of the crossover, so by trial and error we can arrive at a turnout size which fits (assuming both turnouts are the same size -- it would be very unusual if not in a straight crossover).

And the result seems to be a GWR 18ft straight switch and 1:10 CLM crossing (which is a bog-standard GWR size):



That's in P4. For EM it will be a bit shorter, but you could use 1:10 RAM instead of CLM (which will lengthen it a fraction), and centralize it between the crossover toe marks on the map.

regards,

Martin.
 
Martin

I may be wrong but I thought the GWR 6-foot way was 6' 6", not 6' 0.5" ?

Cheers
Nigel

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8th message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2017 11:12
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Nigel Brown wrote:I may be wrong but I thought the GWR 6-foot way was 6' 6", not 6' 0.5"  Hi Nigel,

6ft-6in to the gauge-faces. With 2 rails 2.75in wide that leaves 6ft-0.1/2in between them.

i.e. 1/2in wider than the usual 6ft way on other lines.

regards,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2017 12:06
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Nigel Brown wrote:I may be wrong but I thought the GWR 6-foot way was 6' 6", not 6' 0.5"  Hi Nigel,

6ft-6in to the gauge-faces. With 2 rails 2.75in wide that leaves 6ft-0.1/2in between them.

i.e. 1/2in wider than the usual 6ft way on other lines.

regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin

Ah, so the other lot measured it in a different way. Didn't realise that. Did notice when I checked that Smith has it measured to the gauge faces.

It does mean that my layout, where I used 6' between the rails then later thought I had it wrong, is in fact correct, more or less :)

Cheers
Nigel


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10th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2017 10:04
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David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Hello Martin,


Thank you for your very informative reply, much appreciated.


I wasn’t too sure on what specification for the Turnout Switch / Crossings I should be using so thanks for that.


I’ve uploaded 3 images of Moretonhampstead to show the Engine Release Crossover and the Goods Yard Crossover. 


Now that I have more time available, more information to hand, plus the availability of the 25” Maps from NLS I think this will be an ideal opportunity to start my Moretonhampstead project afresh. I will post my progress to this thread.







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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Looking at the Moretonhampstead Photographs the Engine Release Crossover looks to be shorter than the NLS Maps.
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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Just had a quick dabble with the Engine Release Crossover, seems ok to me!

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Attachment: Moretonhampstead Engine Release.box (Downloaded 4 times)
 
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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Uploaded background shape for Engine_Release
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Attachment: Engine_Release.sk81 (Downloaded 5 times)
 
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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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How I can I make an adjustment to the Angle of the Diamond Crossing so that the "Main" Lines up correctly?
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Attachment: Moretonhampstead BR(W).box (Downloaded 4 times)
 
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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Background shape
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Attachment: Moretonhampstead Site.sk81 (Downloaded 2 times)
 
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David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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I have made a few alterations but I'm still having problems getting everything "lined up", no doubt due to lack of understanding with Crossing Angles etc.
Regards

David

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17th message | this message only posted: 11 Oct 2017 15:41
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi David,

Thanks for putting the files in a .zip.

Your diamond-crossing is a mis-matched irregular diamond. It needs to be right-hand instead of left-hand and regular (all angles the same), I think probably 1:7.

Try creating it again, but this time have the main line as the control template, and the yard line as the background template. That will make it right-hand. After that it should be easy to create the turnout in the loop line using make ordinary crossover.

Just about to have some lunch, then I will have a closer look.

regards,

Martin.

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18th message | this message only posted: 12 Oct 2017 06:45
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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Hello Martin,
Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.

Martin Wynne wrote:Your diamond-crossing is a mis-matched irregular diamond. It needs to be right-hand instead of left-hand and regular (all angles the same), I think probably 1:7I will follow your advice and modify my Plan accordingly.

There is just one question I'd like to ask and that is should the "V Crossing Angle" and the "K Crossing" Angle both be the same? I have altered the "V Crossing Angle" to 1:7 but haven't changed the "K Crossing Angle"; no errors were reported. Is this to do with Regular Angles Setting?

Regards

David

Edit: Just checked, both Angles are the same!

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19th message | this message only posted: 12 Oct 2017 07:37
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David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Ok, I've made the recommended alterations although I have an issue in that there is a difference in "Track Centres" at each end of the Loop. I started off with the Engine Release Crossover at 1:10 and at the other end of the loop I have used 1:7 to access the Goods Yard. The track Centres are wider at the beginning of the Loop.
Regards

David


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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi David.
A regular diamond, by definition, has all the crossings at the same angle. It may be straight or curved, but if curved both roads will have the same radius.
Irregular diamonds have roads of differing radii or one straight and one curved, hence the crossing angles get progressively sharper through the diamond as the roads diverge.
Regards
Tony.

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David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Hello Tony,
Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.

Tony W wrote: Hi David.
A regular diamond, by definition, has all the crossings at the same angle. It may be straight or curved, but if curved both roads will have the same radius.
Irregular diamonds have roads of differing radii or one straight and one curved, hence the crossing angles get progressively sharper through the diamond as the roads diverge.
Regards
Tony.
I have a lot to learn with regards Templot and Trackwork although I'm quite enjoying the process. I'm a great believer in "learning by doing" and having a project is the best way to learn.

Thanks again for your help. 

By the way I liked the images of your Baseboards that you shared on the other thread. I was watching a DVD with Barry Norman talking about Plywood Baseboards and gleaned a few ideas so watch this space.

Regards

David

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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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David Higgs wrote:I have a lot to learn with regards Templot and Trackwork although I'm quite enjoying the process. I'm a great believer in "learning by doing" and having a project is the best way to learn.Hi David,

Hmm. I persist in my belief that jumping straight in to aligning tracks over a background map is asking for grief. There is just so much that you need to know, which you can leave until later if you just want to learn Templot by creating layout track plans.

To start with, you are working in EM, so nothing is going to match exactly because all the lead lengths will be shorter. The better way is to design in P4, make a note of all the sizes*, then recreate the same in EM and decide for each template whether it is more important to match the crossing position or the toe position. You need to keep converting to CLM angles, because if you use the F5 function Templot will keep switching back to RAM. Most turnouts will need changing to generic crossings instead of the regular default.

Then you need some good prototype knowledge -- for example for a typical branch line such as this it is very likely that the switches will still be old loose-heel pre-grouping types, especially in goods yards and sidings.

None of that is too difficult once you know, but starting from scratch it is quite likely that the above is meaningless. And wouldn't be needed if you were designing a fictional branch terminus to practice the basic Templot functions.

But your track plan is mostly straights, so should be reasonably straightforward. :)

The key starting point seems to be the clearly marked toe position for the turnout across the diamond. By temporarily setting geometry > turnout road exit length to long, you can adjust the turnout size and crossing angle to match, and roam it along to match the toe position. The toe marks are shown on the templates (not the rail joints).

Like this: 



That's in P4. The crossing angle for best match seems to be 1:7.1/4, which would be a very unlikely size for other companies but is listed as a standard size by the GWR. As you can see, that is with a 12ft old-type switch, generic crossing, and converted to CLM angle.

With that established, the next task is easy, tools > make ladder crossover > make regular ladder, and you have your diamond-crossing. You could maybe leave doing that until you have restarted in EM. Then tools > make branch track creates the track into the yard.

*or convert group on the gauge/scale dialog.

regards,

Martin.

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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Hello Martin,
Once again many thanks for your help, you must have the patience of a Saint. 

With your guidance I've now managed to achieve what I set out to do and that is to have all the Trackwork laid out on a scale map. I still need to do some refinements but this can take place as I gain more experience with Templot.

I know from being a Templot Forum Member for a number of years that you frown upon "jumping straight in to designing layouts".  I was spurred on to make some progress with my "Track Plan for Moretonhampstead" by the recent updates to the Templot Software in relation to "Importing Background Maps". I  have quite a few Photographs and Reference Books on Moretonhampstead and I also have the Great Western Study Groups "GWR Switch and Crossing Practice" by David Smith. I will take a look at them for further information.

I never set out to build an inch perfect representation of Moretonhamstead, I will have to apply some compression to fit the layout in the space available. I can now draw the Baseboards on the map and see where I can apply the compression and hopefully not detract too much from the prototype.

Regards

David

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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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David Higgs wrote: Hello Tony,
Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.

By the way I liked the images of your Baseboards that you shared on the other thread. I was watching a DVD with Barry Norman talking about Plywood Baseboards and gleaned a few ideas so watch this space.

Regards

David
Funnily enough I was watching part of that video at our club meeting recently and thought that Barry made heavy weather of some of it. A band saw takes so much of the hard work out of cutting up the woodwork. Perhaps I should start my own thread.
Regards
Tony.

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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Tony W wrote: Funnily enough I was watching part of that video at our club meeting recently and thought that Barry made heavy weather of some of it. A band saw takes so much of the hard work out of cutting up the woodwork. Perhaps I should start my own thread.I thought the same, but I suppose (a) the video is a few years old now and (b) he shows that "Power Tools" are not essential but of course they make work and accuracy much easier.
Yes it would be nice a thread dedicated to Baseboards.

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