Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 3097Outside single slip
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posted: 7 Oct 2017 22:45

from:

Bryan Hardwick
 
Dorset - United Kingdom

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I am planning a layout in OO based on the track plan of Gordon and Maggie Gravett's 7mm layout Arun Quay. Rather than a quay it will be a factory complex with the viewing side on the opposite side to the original. Here is a Xtrkcad drawing of the track plan: -

3469_071734_100000000.jpg3469_071734_100000000.jpg

The diamond crossing on the right should be a single slip but there are no proprietary outside single slips to fit so I am creating a template in templot for such, I have got this far: -

3469_071742_260000000.jpg3469_071742_260000000.jpg

I have got stuck creating the common crossings at A and B; what is the best thing to do?
I suspect I have gone about the whole thing the wrong way! :(

Cheers
Bryan
Bryan V Hardwick

posted: 7 Oct 2017 23:24

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Bryan,

That looks very promising. There are some notes about creating an outside slip in this topic:

 topic 2931 - message 20789

The method 1. there creates the additional V-crossings for you.

You may then want to remove the underlying conflicting rails. For which see this old video:

 http://screencast.com/t/BHeRkhKcL

which is a bit out of date, like most things. (The use of the parking bay is simply for the video, to make the screen clearer to watch.)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 8 Oct 2017 22:37

from:

Bryan Hardwick
 
Dorset - United Kingdom

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Thanks Martin, I have used the quick method and achieved the following: -

3469_081724_470000000.jpg3469_081724_470000000.jpg

I now need to work on getting only the bits of the switches I need using the info from the video.

I have discovered that the diamond is not quite acute enough for the location on the layout, I used a Peco short diamond for laying the track in Xtrkcad which is a 24 degree crossing, how does this relate to the 1:4 crossing I used in Templot (I guessed 1:4 is equivalent to 25 degrees).

The upshot is that I am now getting my head around how Templot works (I was swearing at it last week! :o )

Thanks again for the help.

Cheers,
Bryan.



posted: 8 Oct 2017 23:04

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Bryan Hardwick wrote:
I used a Peco short diamond for laying the track in Xtrkcad which is a 24 degree crossing, how does this relate to the 1:4 crossing I used in Templot (I guessed 1:4 is equivalent to 25 degrees).

Cheers,
Bryan.
Hi Bryan.
A 1:4 crossing is equivalent to 14.0 degrees.
25 degrees is approximately A 1:2.1 crossing.
A simple calculation using Tan and arc Tan.
Regards
Tony.

Last edited on 8 Oct 2017 23:04 by Tony W
posted: 8 Oct 2017 23:13

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Bryan Hardwick wrote:
I guessed 1:4 is equivalent to 25 degrees
Hi Bryan,

No, it's rather more involved than that.

If you want to set a crossing angle in degrees (not a very prototypical thing to do), you can use the k prefix letter. In other words for 25 degrees go to real > V-crossing options > V-crossing angle... and enter k25.

You will see that the result is a crossing angle of 1:2.14 RAM for 25 degrees.

For more about all that, see:

 message 2081

regards,

Martin.

posted: 9 Oct 2017 09:04

from:

Bryan Hardwick
 
Dorset - United Kingdom

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Thanks Gents, never very good at Maths, I still have to use a calculator to get my age!! :shock:
I could only find an angle for the Peco crossing when trying to convert it....
Last edited on 9 Oct 2017 09:05 by Bryan Hardwick
posted: 9 Oct 2017 09:19

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Bryan Hardwick wrote:
Thanks Gents, never very good at Maths, I still have to use a calculator to get my age!! :shock:
And do you always accept what the calculator tells you as gospel?
Tony.

posted: 9 Oct 2017 10:08

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Tony W wrote:

And do you always accept what the calculator tells you as gospel?
Tony.
I certainly do, yes.  Not everyone understands or is good at maths.  All I remember is SOHCAHTOA, but can't remember what to do with it!
Paul

posted: 9 Oct 2017 11:01

from:

Bryan Hardwick
 
Dorset - United Kingdom

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Tony W wrote:
Bryan Hardwick wrote:
Thanks Gents, never very good at Maths, I still have to use a calculator to get my age!! :shock:
And do you always accept what the calculator tells you as gospel?
Tony.
Not really, never says 21..... ever! :cool:

Cheers,
Bryan.

posted: 9 Oct 2017 15:10

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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You need a scientific one with a hyperbolic function. :D

Jim.

posted: 9 Oct 2017 23:34

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote
I certainly do, yes.  Not everyone understands or is good at maths.  All I remember is SOHCAHTOA, but can't remember what to do with it!
Paul
Hi Paul. Well perhaps you shouldn't. I had to look that mnemonic up as it is a new one on me.
Sine = Opposite / Hypotenuse, Cosine = Adjacent / Hypotenuse, Tangent = Opposite / Hypotenuse.
Trigonometry functions. Of all the maths I was taught at school Trig and Geometry are the things I still use most. It is quite impressive what can be achieved with it after all large parts of the world were mapped pretty accurately using triangulation. Much else I was taught has long since been forgotten.
Another mnemonic is GIGO Garbage in = Garbage out.
I am old enough to have used log tables and slide rules and they teach you to have a rough idea of what answer to expect to come out of the calculation so I tend to treat calculator and computer results with a degree of suspicion.
Of course we are very luck to have Templot which does all the number crunching for us so we don't even have to think about it, much.
Regards
Tony.
Last edited on 9 Oct 2017 23:36 by Tony W
posted: 15 Oct 2017 13:37

from:

Bryan Hardwick
 
Dorset - United Kingdom

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OK, I think I have got there, I haven't managed to get rid of all the duplicate rails from the diamond and the two turnouts, but the basic idea is working: -
3469_150822_020000000.jpg3469_150822_020000000.jpg

The only problem now is that I have inadvertently created the whole thing as T-55 gauge rather than OO, so that when I print it out it is 25mm (1") gauge, can I changed the whole thing to OO or do I have to start again?
I have tried making each part the control and selecting a new gauge, but I just replace that template with a new different one! :shock: :(
I am still having trouble with what gets written to the storage box and what is transient on the trackpad, sometimes I make sure I update the storage box and I get two items the same and sometimes I don't and other items I wanted disappear. (which is another question I guess)
Thanks for the help so far.
Cheers,
Bryan.
Last edited on 15 Oct 2017 13:38 by Bryan Hardwick
posted: 15 Oct 2017 14:09

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Bryan Hardwick wrote:
The only problem now is that I have inadvertently created the whole thing as T-55 gauge rather than OO, so that when I print it out it is 25mm (1") gauge, can I changed the whole thing to OO or do I have to start again?
Hi Bryan,

You should have seen a warning that you were using T-55 gauge after a few minutes, each time you started a Templot session.

Did the warnings not appear? Did you leave Templot running for several days?

You may be reporting a bug there. Also I should perhaps consider adding subsequent warnings if Templot has not been restarted for long periods.

Yes and no, you can convert it to 00 in one go. See:

 topic 3086 - message 22111

Because of the big change in gauge:scale ratio for 00, it is not going to convert very well. It will need the templates to be re-aligned -- whether that is better or worse than starting again is up to you. :?

Problems with stored and duplicate templates keep cropping up. I have explained it so many times using different forms of words, I really don't know what more I can say. The golden rule is that if you click something containing the word "make", don't store the control template first, because Templot will do it for you.

You might want to watch this video which I posted earlier today, and note that only at the very end did I explicitly store a template (and then only to end the video neatly):

 http://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=Bxx5m6dSF5usPBJVhpWTYw2

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 Oct 2017 16:22

from:

Bryan Hardwick
 
Dorset - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
You should have seen a warning that you were using T-55 gauge after a few minutes, each time you started a Templot session.

Did the warnings not appear? Did you leave Templot running for several days?
I think I probably ignored it (clicked cancel) because I was trying to keep in my head what I was doing; probably saved the crossing after I had made it before adding the slip road.
You may be reporting a bug there. Also I should perhaps consider adding subsequent warnings if Templot has not been restarted for long periods.
I wouldn't worry too much about that, it is more likely to be user error than an error in your code.
Yes and no, you can convert it to 00 in one go. See:
topic 3086 - message 22111
Because of the big change in gauge:scale ratio for 00, it is not going to convert very well. It will need the templates to be re-aligned -- whether that is better or worse than starting again is up to you. :?
Thanks for that, I will have a go, but if I have to create the slip again it will give me a further chance to practice, each time I am getting more comfortable/confident how the software works.

Thanks for the prompt answer Martin. :thumb:

Cheers,
Bryan.

posted: 15 Oct 2017 17:57

from:

Bryan Hardwick
 
Dorset - United Kingdom

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Martin

The conversion changed some of the dimensions/angles of the two turn-outs but the remainder appeared fine; some resetting of them using F9 & CTRL-F12 soon had it right again.
3469_151246_090000000.jpg3469_151246_090000000.jpg
The centre is a bit tight and may give me problems to build, but I am going to have a go; I have given myself a problem due to the space it is to fit in, so I will see how it goes.
If this is too difficult to get working, I will attempt a half-scissors instead.

Cheers,
Bryan.

posted: 15 Oct 2017 21:57

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Hi Byan.
You have discovered the hard way one of Templot's main characteristics. It faithfully copies the settings of the starting template to the next, so if you start off with the wrong settings they will be duplicated every time you create a new control template. These include, scale, gauge, radius, sleeper lengths / spacings, rail lengths, track centres and many other things, so it is worth getting them the way you want them before going too far. Unfortunately this is not obvious to the beginner and for the most part the default settings work well enough. The whole point of setting the default scale to T55 is to make the user set it to what they want as it will be wrong for everyone. Templot is very clever in some things, but it cannot possibly know what scale you want it to work to. The on screen templates look much the same regardless of scale and the only clue is the scale of the grid, until you print it out!
Regards
Tony.
Last edited on 16 Oct 2017 13:34 by Tony W
posted: 17 Oct 2017 08:46

from:

Bryan Hardwick
 
Dorset - United Kingdom

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OK, been working at the template a bit more now, I have managed to remove most duplicate rails: -
3469_170329_300000000.jpg3469_170329_300000000.jpg
The only rails I haven't done yet are the diagonal rails of the diamond (can be seen in the second crossings). A number of the wing/check rails are too long, but they will have to be adjusted on the build as they are as short as the software allows. I also need to fiddle about a bit with the sleepers as they are not long enough.
I am planning to build using flat bottom rail, I will post a picture when I get there.
Thanks for the help everybody.
If anybody has any suggestions/comments please feel free.

Cheers,
Bryan.

posted: 17 Oct 2017 17:05

from:

John Palmer
 
 

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Bryan Hardwick wrote:
A number of the wing/check rails are too long, but they will have to be adjusted on the build as they are as short as the software allows.
Cheers,
Bryan.
Martin will be able to tell you whether such is the case or not, but I wonder whether the program is preventing further shortening of some wing rails because any such further shortening would prevent the rails concerned from performing their intended function.

One area of potential difficulty in this respect is the checking of the obtuse crossing adjacent to the outer rail of the slip road. When a flangeway for the slip road is incorporated, the effect will be to make the check rails for that obtuse crossing very short, possibly to the extent that they are incapable of performing their intended checking function.

If that is the case, one solution might be to find a way to move the slip road closer to the centre of the diamond, as this would mean that there is then more room to fit longer check rails for the affected obtuse crossing. You might be able to do this by using switches with sharper curvature than those currently fitted, positioned closer to the acute crossings of the diamond. The downside to this is that it would involve a reduction in the radius of the slip road to what might prove to be an unacceptable degree.

Alternatively, as you previously suggested, you could adopt a half-scissors formation in which no part of the 'slip road' intrudes within the diamond.

posted: 17 Oct 2017 19:18

from:

Bryan Hardwick
 
Dorset - United Kingdom

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John Palmer wrote:
Martin will be able to tell you whether such is the case or not, but I wonder whether the program is preventing further shortening of some wing rails because any such further shortening would prevent the rails concerned from performing their intended function.

One area of potential difficulty in this respect is the checking of the obtuse crossing adjacent to the outer rail of the slip road. When a flangeway for the slip road is incorporated, the effect will be to make the check rails for that obtuse crossing very short, possibly to the extent that they are incapable of performing their intended checking function.

If that is the case, one solution might be to find a way to move the slip road closer to the centre of the diamond, as this would mean that there is then more room to fit longer check rails for the affected obtuse crossing. You might be able to do this by using switches with sharper curvature than those currently fitted, positioned closer to the acute crossings of the diamond. The downside to this is that it would involve a reduction in the radius of the slip road to what might prove to be an unacceptable degree.
I suspected that this was the case with the wing rails; which is why I was going to shorten them during the build, but only enough to get the flange-way required.

As far as tightening the radius of the slip, I did juggle with this for ages so that I could get the longest wing rails for the crossings and check rails on the K-crossing. The resulting track work is to be used for an industrial type location where only 4 wheeled wagons and short wheelbase locomotives will be used. I am hoping the largest loco will be a Terrier or a P class, if they won't fit I will stick to 0-4-0 tank locos.

Mmmmm... that reminds me, I ought to go and look at the new Hattons Barclay! :shock: :thumb:

Cheers,
Bryan.

posted: 18 Oct 2017 15:02

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Brian,

You can adjust the check and wing rails much shorter than you have there.

The trick is to shorten the flare length first, so that the rail length can then be shortened without losing the checking function. This is the absolute minimum Templot allows for a wing rail:

2_180947_240000000.png2_180947_240000000.png

I think you are going to need something approaching that so that you can get the slip rail further from the K-crossing -- at present it will be almost impossible to maintain a flangeway on the slip rail and fit any K-crossing check rails.


Prototypically I think an outside slip at such a short angle is a bit unlikely. Have you considered a half-scissors instead:

2_180954_010000000.png2_180954_010000000.png

It could be got shorter by moving the switches forward a bit, although not with such a tidy timbering layout.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 21 Oct 2017 16:22

from:

Bryan Hardwick
 
Dorset - United Kingdom

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Hi everybody that commented, thanks all and I think I have got there. I have learnt alot about Templot on the way and this (for this particular piece of trackwork) is the end of the road I think.
So here it is, I haven't put timbers along all the diagonal road, but hopefully it is there: -
3469_211121_160000000.jpg3469_211121_160000000.jpg

Cheers,
Bryan.



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