click here for a list of all existing Templot documentation
about Templot Club cookie information pre-print options:    

click image to open Templot Club in a new tab
Templot club top logo
looking for Templot? - (free)



 you are not logged in  - Login | Join


receive all messages by email: info


Recent Topics
Front Page  Search  Image Gallery  Gallery Upload  My Account  Members  Help  
make a donation  
please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors Templot Companion - User Guide
            messages archive on Yahoo
page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Baffled beginners > Outside single slip
Templot web site

                                       Outside single slip
     
 Start new topic   Reply blank   Printer friendly 
  Rate this topic  
AuthorMessage
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
1st message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2017 21:45
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bryan Hardwick
Dorset, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
I am planning a layout in OO based on the track plan of Gordon and Maggie Gravett's 7mm layout Arun Quay. Rather than a quay it will be a factory complex with the viewing side on the opposite side to the original. Here is a Xtrkcad drawing of the track plan: -



The diamond crossing on the right should be a single slip but there are no proprietary outside single slips to fit so I am creating a template in templot for such, I have got this far: -



I have got stuck creating the common crossings at A and B; what is the best thing to do?
I suspect I have gone about the whole thing the wrong way! :(

Cheers
Bryan
Bryan V Hardwick

__________
message ref: 22231

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
2nd message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2017 22:24
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi Bryan,

That looks very promising. There are some notes about creating an outside slip in this topic:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2931&forum_id=22#p20789

The method 1. there creates the additional V-crossings for you.

You may then want to remove the underlying conflicting rails. For which see this old video:

 http://screencast.com/t/BHeRkhKcL

which is a bit out of date, like most things. (The use of the parking bay is simply for the video, to make the screen clearer to watch.)

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 22234

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
3rd message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2017 21:37
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bryan Hardwick
Dorset, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks Martin, I have used the quick method and achieved the following: -



I now need to work on getting only the bits of the switches I need using the info from the video.

I have discovered that the diamond is not quite acute enough for the location on the layout, I used a Peco short diamond for laying the track in Xtrkcad which is a 24 degree crossing, how does this relate to the 1:4 crossing I used in Templot (I guessed 1:4 is equivalent to 25 degrees).

The upshot is that I am now getting my head around how Templot works (I was swearing at it last week! :o )

Thanks again for the help.

Cheers,
Bryan.



__________
message ref: 22250

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
4th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2017 22:04
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Bryan Hardwick wrote: I used a Peco short diamond for laying the track in Xtrkcad which is a 24 degree crossing, how does this relate to the 1:4 crossing I used in Templot (I guessed 1:4 is equivalent to 25 degrees).

Cheers,
Bryan.
Hi Bryan.
A 1:4 crossing is equivalent to 14.0 degrees.
25 degrees is approximately A 1:2.1 crossing.
A simple calculation using Tan and arc Tan.
Regards
Tony.


__________
message ref: 22251

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
5th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2017 22:13
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Bryan Hardwick wrote:I guessed 1:4 is equivalent to 25 degreesHi Bryan,

No, it's rather more involved than that.

If you want to set a crossing angle in degrees (not a very prototypical thing to do), you can use the k prefix letter. In other words for 25 degrees go to real > V-crossing options > V-crossing angle... and enter k25.

You will see that the result is a crossing angle of 1:2.14 RAM for 25 degrees.

For more about all that, see:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_postx.php?post_id=2081

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 22252

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
6th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2017 08:04
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bryan Hardwick
Dorset, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks Gents, never very good at Maths, I still have to use a calculator to get my age!! :shock:
I could only find an angle for the Peco crossing when trying to convert it....
__________
message ref: 22256

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
7th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2017 08:19
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Bryan Hardwick wrote: Thanks Gents, never very good at Maths, I still have to use a calculator to get my age!! :shock:And do you always accept what the calculator tells you as gospel?
Tony.

__________
message ref: 22260

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
8th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2017 09:08
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Tony W wrote:
And do you always accept what the calculator tells you as gospel?
Tony.
I certainly do, yes.  Not everyone understands or is good at maths.  All I remember is SOHCAHTOA, but can't remember what to do with it!
Paul

__________
message ref: 22261

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
9th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2017 10:01
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bryan Hardwick
Dorset, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Tony W wrote: Bryan Hardwick wrote: Thanks Gents, never very good at Maths, I still have to use a calculator to get my age!! :shock:And do you always accept what the calculator tells you as gospel?
Tony.
Not really, never says 21..... ever! :cool:

Cheers,
Bryan.

__________
message ref: 22262

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
10th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2017 14:10
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
You need a scientific one with a hyperbolic function. :D

Jim.
__________
message ref: 22264

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
11th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2017 22:34
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Paul Boyd wroteI certainly do, yes.  Not everyone understands or is good at maths.  All I remember is SOHCAHTOA, but can't remember what to do with it!
Paul
Hi Paul. Well perhaps you shouldn't. I had to look that mnemonic up as it is a new one on me.
Sine = Opposite / Hypotenuse, Cosine = Adjacent / Hypotenuse, Tangent = Opposite / Hypotenuse.
Trigonometry functions. Of all the maths I was taught at school Trig and Geometry are the things I still use most. It is quite impressive what can be achieved with it after all large parts of the world were mapped pretty accurately using triangulation. Much else I was taught has long since been forgotten.
Another mnemonic is GIGO Garbage in = Garbage out.
I am old enough to have used log tables and slide rules and they teach you to have a rough idea of what answer to expect to come out of the calculation so I tend to treat calculator and computer results with a degree of suspicion.
Of course we are very luck to have Templot which does all the number crunching for us so we don't even have to think about it, much.
Regards
Tony.

__________
message ref: 22271

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
12th message | this message only posted: 15 Oct 2017 12:37
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bryan Hardwick
Dorset, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
OK, I think I have got there, I haven't managed to get rid of all the duplicate rails from the diamond and the two turnouts, but the basic idea is working: -


The only problem now is that I have inadvertently created the whole thing as T-55 gauge rather than OO, so that when I print it out it is 25mm (1") gauge, can I changed the whole thing to OO or do I have to start again?
I have tried making each part the control and selecting a new gauge, but I just replace that template with a new different one! :shock: :(
I am still having trouble with what gets written to the storage box and what is transient on the trackpad, sometimes I make sure I update the storage box and I get two items the same and sometimes I don't and other items I wanted disappear. (which is another question I guess)
Thanks for the help so far.
Cheers,
Bryan.

__________
message ref: 22392

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
13th message | this message only posted: 15 Oct 2017 13:09
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Bryan Hardwick wrote:The only problem now is that I have inadvertently created the whole thing as T-55 gauge rather than OO, so that when I print it out it is 25mm (1") gauge, can I changed the whole thing to OO or do I have to start again?Hi Bryan,

You should have seen a warning that you were using T-55 gauge after a few minutes, each time you started a Templot session.

Did the warnings not appear? Did you leave Templot running for several days?

You may be reporting a bug there. Also I should perhaps consider adding subsequent warnings if Templot has not been restarted for long periods.

Yes and no, you can convert it to 00 in one go. See:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3086&forum_id=3#p22111

Because of the big change in gauge:scale ratio for 00, it is not going to convert very well. It will need the templates to be re-aligned -- whether that is better or worse than starting again is up to you. :?

Problems with stored and duplicate templates keep cropping up. I have explained it so many times using different forms of words, I really don't know what more I can say. The golden rule is that if you click something containing the word "make", don't store the control template first, because Templot will do it for you.

You might want to watch this video which I posted earlier today, and note that only at the very end did I explicitly store a template (and then only to end the video neatly):

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=Bxx5m6dSF5usPBJVhpWTYw2

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 22393

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
14th message | this message only posted: 15 Oct 2017 15:22
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bryan Hardwick
Dorset, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:You should have seen a warning that you were using T-55 gauge after a few minutes, each time you started a Templot session.

Did the warnings not appear? Did you leave Templot running for several days?
I think I probably ignored it (clicked cancel) because I was trying to keep in my head what I was doing; probably saved the crossing after I had made it before adding the slip road.
You may be reporting a bug there. Also I should perhaps consider adding subsequent warnings if Templot has not been restarted for long periods.I wouldn't worry too much about that, it is more likely to be user error than an error in your code. Yes and no, you can convert it to 00 in one go. See:
http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3086&forum_id=3#p22111
Because of the big change in gauge:scale ratio for 00, it is not going to convert very well. It will need the templates to be re-aligned -- whether that is better or worse than starting again is up to you. :?
Thanks for that, I will have a go, but if I have to create the slip again it will give me a further chance to practice, each time I am getting more comfortable/confident how the software works.

Thanks for the prompt answer Martin. :thumb:

Cheers,
Bryan.

__________
message ref: 22395

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
15th message | this message only posted: 15 Oct 2017 16:57
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bryan Hardwick
Dorset, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin

The conversion changed some of the dimensions/angles of the two turn-outs but the remainder appeared fine; some resetting of them using F9 & CTRL-F12 soon had it right again.

The centre is a bit tight and may give me problems to build, but I am going to have a go; I have given myself a problem due to the space it is to fit in, so I will see how it goes.
If this is too difficult to get working, I will attempt a half-scissors instead.

Cheers,
Bryan.

__________
message ref: 22396

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
16th message | this message only posted: 15 Oct 2017 20:57
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Byan.
You have discovered the hard way one of Templot's main characteristics. It faithfully copies the settings of the starting template to the next, so if you start off with the wrong settings they will be duplicated every time you create a new control template. These include, scale, gauge, radius, sleeper lengths / spacings, rail lengths, track centres and many other things, so it is worth getting them the way you want them before going too far. Unfortunately this is not obvious to the beginner and for the most part the default settings work well enough. The whole point of setting the default scale to T55 is to make the user set it to what they want as it will be wrong for everyone. Templot is very clever in some things, but it cannot possibly know what scale you want it to work to. The on screen templates look much the same regardless of scale and the only clue is the scale of the grid, until you print it out!
Regards
Tony.

__________
message ref: 22397

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
17th message | this message only posted: 17 Oct 2017 07:46
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bryan Hardwick
Dorset, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
OK, been working at the template a bit more now, I have managed to remove most duplicate rails: -

The only rails I haven't done yet are the diagonal rails of the diamond (can be seen in the second crossings). A number of the wing/check rails are too long, but they will have to be adjusted on the build as they are as short as the software allows. I also need to fiddle about a bit with the sleepers as they are not long enough.
I am planning to build using flat bottom rail, I will post a picture when I get there.
Thanks for the help everybody.
If anybody has any suggestions/comments please feel free.

Cheers,
Bryan.

__________
message ref: 22426

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
18th message | this message only posted: 17 Oct 2017 16:05
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
John Palmer
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Bryan Hardwick wrote: A number of the wing/check rails are too long, but they will have to be adjusted on the build as they are as short as the software allows.
Cheers,
Bryan.
Martin will be able to tell you whether such is the case or not, but I wonder whether the program is preventing further shortening of some wing rails because any such further shortening would prevent the rails concerned from performing their intended function.

One area of potential difficulty in this respect is the checking of the obtuse crossing adjacent to the outer rail of the slip road. When a flangeway for the slip road is incorporated, the effect will be to make the check rails for that obtuse crossing very short, possibly to the extent that they are incapable of performing their intended checking function.

If that is the case, one solution might be to find a way to move the slip road closer to the centre of the diamond, as this would mean that there is then more room to fit longer check rails for the affected obtuse crossing. You might be able to do this by using switches with sharper curvature than those currently fitted, positioned closer to the acute crossings of the diamond. The downside to this is that it would involve a reduction in the radius of the slip road to what might prove to be an unacceptable degree.

Alternatively, as you previously suggested, you could adopt a half-scissors formation in which no part of the 'slip road' intrudes within the diamond.

__________
message ref: 22429

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
19th message | this message only posted: 17 Oct 2017 18:18
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bryan Hardwick
Dorset, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
John Palmer wrote: Martin will be able to tell you whether such is the case or not, but I wonder whether the program is preventing further shortening of some wing rails because any such further shortening would prevent the rails concerned from performing their intended function.

One area of potential difficulty in this respect is the checking of the obtuse crossing adjacent to the outer rail of the slip road. When a flangeway for the slip road is incorporated, the effect will be to make the check rails for that obtuse crossing very short, possibly to the extent that they are incapable of performing their intended checking function.

If that is the case, one solution might be to find a way to move the slip road closer to the centre of the diamond, as this would mean that there is then more room to fit longer check rails for the affected obtuse crossing. You might be able to do this by using switches with sharper curvature than those currently fitted, positioned closer to the acute crossings of the diamond. The downside to this is that it would involve a reduction in the radius of the slip road to what might prove to be an unacceptable degree.
I suspected that this was the case with the wing rails; which is why I was going to shorten them during the build, but only enough to get the flange-way required.

As far as tightening the radius of the slip, I did juggle with this for ages so that I could get the longest wing rails for the crossings and check rails on the K-crossing. The resulting track work is to be used for an industrial type location where only 4 wheeled wagons and short wheelbase locomotives will be used. I am hoping the largest loco will be a Terrier or a P class, if they won't fit I will stick to 0-4-0 tank locos.

Mmmmm... that reminds me, I ought to go and look at the new Hattons Barclay! :shock: :thumb:

Cheers,
Bryan.

__________
message ref: 22432

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
20th message | this message only posted: 18 Oct 2017 14:02
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi Brian,

You can adjust the check and wing rails much shorter than you have there.

The trick is to shorten the flare length first, so that the rail length can then be shortened without losing the checking function. This is the absolute minimum Templot allows for a wing rail:



I think you are going to need something approaching that so that you can get the slip rail further from the K-crossing -- at present it will be almost impossible to maintain a flangeway on the slip rail and fit any K-crossing check rails.


Prototypically I think an outside slip at such a short angle is a bit unlikely. Have you considered a half-scissors instead:



It could be got shorter by moving the switches forward a bit, although not with such a tidy timbering layout.

regards,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 22440

 
This is topic ID = 3097     Page created at 05:05 (local time)  
You can type a quick reply to this topic here.

Click in the box to begin.


But to reply to an individual message, or to include images, attachments and formatted text, use the reply buttons on each message above.

To start a new topic in this forum, click the Start new topic button below.
To start a new topic in a different forum, click the Forum Jump drop-down list below.

             Start new topic 

 click to jump to a different forum:     Back to top of page

Templot Club > Forums > Baffled beginners > Outside single slip
about Templot Club

list recently active topics Templot Companion - User Guide - A-Z Index Old Templot Companion Please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors.
indexing link for search engines only

back to top of page


Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so.

The small print: All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted. The owner of this web site is not responsible for any content displayed here other than his own contributions. The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason.
Problems with this web site? Contact webmaster@templot.com.   This web site uses cookies: click for information.  
© 2017  

Powered by UltraBB - © 2009 Data 1 Systems